Transcript of the podcast above
Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch .com. We have a great episode coming up. Great discussion with Larry Schmitt of the Gridiron Uniform Database and Big Blue Interactive. He's a great talker. He's a great historian. We had him on the episode covering the number ones, our very second episode of this great pilgrimage through the Football by Numbers series that we're talking about on Pigskin Daily History Dispatch podcast in the off -season here. And we're exciting to have him on again because he brings a great wealth of knowledge and some awesome stories about the game. The greatest players ever to wear the number seven with Larry Schmitt. Ladies and gentlemen of the Pigpen, we are glad once again to have Larry Schmidt of the Gridiron Uniform Database and Big Blue Interactive with us. And since I think this might be the third time you hear his voice on this podcast, maybe we can put him as a contributor to the pigskin dispatch podcast too. Larry Schmitt, welcome once again to the Pigpen.
Larry Schmitt
Thank you for having me back, Darin.
Darin Hayes
Wow. We're sure glad that you were able to come back with us. Today, Larry, we are still in our journey going the football by numbers series of what we're calling it. And we are all the way up to the jersey number seven and all the greats that have wore that jersey throughout the NFL history. So we have 100 years to choose from. I guess, where do you want to start off here? We have seven Hall of Famers, I guess, and then we're going to try to come up with sort of our best, most substantial players that have over wore the number seven in the NFL. So maybe I guess we
Larry Schmitt
and we have, I think we have five or six guys who have had their number seven retired by their respective teams.
Darin Hayes
I believe you're right. So I guess let's start off with the obvious choices. We'll go off with this seven Hall of Famers. How's that sound?
Larry Schmitt
Sounds Good.
Darin Hayes
All right, where would you like to kick off at with those Hall of Famers?
Larry Schmitt
Well, we can start with chronologically the man whose fingerprints are all over the NFL as a player, a coach, an owner. He was there at the Hupmobile showroom in Canton when the NFL was, or the APFA was formed, George Halas. Absolutely. He was in the Hall of Fame and his, you know, interestingly when I was going through my research, you know, the Bears retired number seven in George Halas's honor. But as I went through the list and, you know, not to jump ahead, but Ed Sprinkle also wore number seven. And I remember Bob Avelini, you know, watching football in the 70s and early 80s, Bob Avelini also wore number seven for the Bears. So obviously he was retired optimously for Mr. Halas.
Darin Hayes
I guess so or it was like sort of a Brett Favre retirement where he kept retiring coming back out with that number seven.
Larry Schmitt
the coach yes that's right that's right and you know and he has the the Dual Honor Hall of Fame or Triple Honor Hall of Fame number seven retired and he has his initials on the bare sleeve as well GSH
Darin Hayes
Yeah, definitely an important figure in NFL history and definitely should be in the Hall of Fame with the inaugural class of the Hall of Fame because of his contributions. What do we know about him as a player wearing the number seven?
Larry Schmitt
Well, unfortunately, you know, statistics weren't kept when he played in the 1920s. He played from 1920 to 1928 as a player, coach, owner, you know, Mr. Everything. But he was a, he was not a large man to play in, but he was known as being an effective player on defense and he was a hard hitter. And the only statistics we have on him, you know, we don't have rushing yards, number of receptions, receiving yards, but we, you know, the only thing we know about him are his touchdowns scored.
Darin Hayes
Right, and how many do you have for him on that?
Larry Schmitt
He had one rushing, possibly on an end -around, and he had six receiving, and he has three defensive scores. His credit of two fumble recoveries for a touchdown and also an interception, so he has 10. And he also, in 1922, kicked two extra points, adding to his Mr. Do Everything. That's right. Scores touchdown and kicked the extra point. It doesn't get much better than that.
Darin Hayes
Well, he was a real Renaissance man of the gridiron. That is for sure. Well, yeah, he is definitely on our list of 12, I would say, being the Hall of Famer. And I think next, I'll let you take us into New York, keep going chronologically. Go ahead and bring up our next candidate.
Larry Schmitt
Next we would have Mel Hein of the Giants.
Darin Hayes
Right. And I think this is one of a personal favorite of yours. This is one of those ones when I said who would like to discuss the number sevens, your hand went up right away. And I think this might be the gentleman you wanted to talk about.
Larry Schmitt
Well, yep. He's one of the most legendary giants. He held the record up until Eli Manning of the most seasons played as a giant with 15. And that was most notable because he was a two -way player. He played offense and defense. He played from 1930 through 1945. And most people remember or they recognize Mel Hine as being the greatest center ever. But they don't, very few people are aware of how effective of a defensive player he was. He was a prototype linebacker for the time. They weren't true linebackers until the 1950s, but he played standing up. He didn't have a hand down on the ground. And I'm friends with a gentleman whose father, Hat Morin, played with Mel Hine. Mike Morin, he lives here in the same town as me.
Speaker 4
Wow.
Larry Schmitt
And he told me that his father said, Mel Hein was an impact player on defense and he could change the course of the game playing defense. You know, much like, you know, giant fans of, you know, my era, the 80s, remember, Lawrence Taylor taking over a game on defense. He said Mel Hine could do the same thing in a game in the 30s and the 40s.
Darin Hayes
Well, that's impressive.
Larry Schmitt
And through my research and reading game summaries and newspapers, he's one of the few players who could tackle Bronco Nagursky, the Bears, who was this big hulking fullback.
Speaker 2
Who?
Larry Schmitt
when he played defensive tackle, that tells you how big he was, Helheim could tackle him one -on -one, but he would also, Helheim had the speed and the agility, the athletic ability to cover the best receiver of his era, Don Hudson on the outside, Steve Hohen and the Giants, Steve Hohen, the head coach, the defensive genius who later invented the umbrella defense, the Giants had a lot of pretty good success against Don Hudson, keeping his receiving statistics down, and a lot of that was he would have Mel Heine cover him through the first half of his route, coming off the line through the middle of the defense, and then he would pass him off to the safety almost in a sort of an early concept of what his own defense would end up being.
Darin Hayes
You know, that's just, that's amazing to sit there and think about it. Okay, so you have a man that played center on offense, offensive lineman, defensive lineman, covering the top wide receiver in the NFL at the time. You know, on the, on the under coverage. That's amazing.
Larry Schmitt
and then dropping the pets to take on Bronko Nagurski. Right, right, wow. That's pretty rare ability. And you know, unfortunately, you know, a couple years ago, the Giants had me down to their facility for some interviews, and you know, we were talking, I was talking to the producer and the director, telling him how I would love to do some players like Mel Hein and Tuffy Lemans, and you know, because the show, this doesn't really go back further than the 50s, and they said, you know, the problem is footage. We don't have enough footage on these guys. It's hard to put, you know, it's fine, you know, the way we're doing it on a podcast, but when people are watching television, they wanna see highlights.
Darin Hayes
Right, you need the visual.
Larry Schmitt
Yeah, there's very few, there's just some newsreel footage of just little short clips. And I guess that's why guys like George Halas and Mel Hein aren't as remembered because there's not that much that you get to see on NFL films highlights of them as a player. Everybody remembers George Halas as a coach, wearing the fedora and the trench coat, and there's not enough footage of them as players. And to find out about them, you have to go through the old newspapers. The same summaries and maybe you can find a photo here and there.
Darin Hayes
That's very true. One thing that's impressive that the NFL does recognize Hein for, he made the 50th, the 75th, and the 100th anniversary all -time teams. I mean, that's quite a feat right there to go back 100 years and you're still on the all -time team. Very substantial player.
Larry Schmitt
And in my research, I also learned that later on, Mel Hein was a coach at USC, and he was on the same staff with Al Davis, and he became good friends with Al Davis. And when Al Davis, in the 60s, took over the Raiders, his center was Jim Otto, you know, the all AFL center.
Speaker 4
Great.
Larry Schmitt
And Al Davis would show Otto film of Mel Hein from the 1930s and the 1940s teaching him how to snap the ball accurately, how to come out of his stance and get into a block. He's showing him film from a player a generation before him.
Darin Hayes
That's quite the role model to have, I'll tell you.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Larry Schmitt
So, just last year, my friend of mine, another friend of mine, John Bertie, he contributes the Giants all -time roster for their media guide, and it was last April or May, he sent me an email, when he was going through his data, and he was comparing it against the NFL encyclopedia, he came up short three games, you know, one of Mel Hines' claim to fame on the Giants' website, in the media guide, on the pro football Hall of Fame website, you know, Mel Hines played every game, he never missed a game in his 15 years. So we said, Larry, you know, I need your help, you know, the Giants played 14 games in 1933, I only have Hines playing 12, and in 1936, they played 12 games, I only have them playing 11, and I get to speak, you know, my whole life, you know, Mel Hines played every game, he was a 60 minute guy, he never missed a game.
Darin Hayes
Right.
Larry Schmitt
So I went into the newspapers, and I started in 1936. I figured I would work backward. And I was in November. And I started seeing these clips. They were AP clips that would be sent around the country. And it said, Mel Hine, Center of the New York Giants, has missed only one game in six years. I'm like, OK. So I never, ever, ever heard this before. But here it is in multiple newspapers. In November, it was November 3rd, 1936. So I did my due diligence. I finished out the game programs, the box scores, all the summaries for 36. They did play every game, but it got very interesting when I got to 1933. It was November 19th. The Giants were playing the Bears at the polo grounds in New York. And typically, you would expect 1933 Giants Bears. It's a very, very physical game. The Giants ended up winning 3 -0. But there was a report in the newspaper in the middle of the week that Mel Hine came out of that game a little banged up. They didn't have injury reports, probable, questionable. There was no specific mention of an energy. They just said he was banged up, and he wasn't practicing.
Speaker 4
Huh.
Larry Schmitt
So on the next week, it was Sunday, the 26th, they were playing the Packers at the polo grounds. And it's fortunate that the game was in New York because I have multiple newspapers that I can cross reference with, the New York Times, the New York Daily News, the New York Herald Tribune. And in this case, I also used one of the Brooklyn newspapers, the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, because depending on the reporter and who was at the game, some guys, they would list the starting lineup. Some would just take the 11 that they had listed at the program. Some guys would take who was actually on the field for the first snap of the game, which was fortunate. So I could cross reference them because in this case, two guys used the program, they had Hein in there, but then the other two had the Giants other center and I'm like, oh no, what happened? And I went through the substitutions and Mel Hein sat the first half of this game against Green Bay, but he did enter in the third quarter, he played the second half. So he didn't have a start, but he had the game played.
Speaker 4
Ah!
Larry Schmitt
Wow.
Darin Hayes
That's some great due diligence there.
Larry Schmitt
And then the giant next game being Thanksgiving, it was on Thursday, it was a short week. They played the Brooklyn Dodgers at Evans Field in Brooklyn on the 30th, and being a short week, Hein couldn't go, he ended up not playing. And again, it was, I had to check multiple box scores. Hein didn't start, and he never entered the game. He wasn't listed in the substitutions. His next game played was December 12th, I'm sorry, December 3rd. They played the Pittsburgh Pirates at home at the Polo Grounds, and then Hein came back, finished out the season, played the championship game. So that was his one game miss. So when I got back in touch with my friend John, I said, all right, here's what I got. He did miss this game against the Dodgers on Thanksgiving in 1933. We had to let people know. So he had to let the Giants know, and the Giants, you know, I checked the Hall of Fame website this morning. They still haven't updated it. They still have him never missing a game. But the Giants corrected their media guide. They have Hein in a couple of places. They have his Hall of Fame bio. And they note that he did miss the one game. But because of that odd discrepancy in the pro football encyclopedia, even though we had him missing a game, we increased his game's play total by two. Because they had it at 170, we actually increased him to 172 games played out of 173. So somehow when they put the NFL encyclopedia together, it was in the early 1970s, somebody miscounted, and for 40 whatever years, almost 50 years, nobody caught it.
Speaker 4
Haha!
Larry Schmitt
So they were actually shorting him three games. We found he missed one, but we increased his overall total by two.
Darin Hayes
But I think he definitely deserves an asterisk by his name for that one game miss being on a short week of Thanksgiving
Larry Schmitt
Hey, Thursday football, it's always, it's never been a good idea.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, we don't like it now they didn't like it then that's
Larry Schmitt
common for teams to play three games in seven days. The Giants played on Thanksgiving, but then they played three days later on Sunday.
Speaker 4
Cheers.
Larry Schmitt
It's not like you play on Thursday and then you get, it's like 10 days off. You just play three games in seven days, or three games in eight days. And you play both ways. You play defense, you play offense, and then no Sundays off.
Darin Hayes
That's incredible. Well, definitely, Millhine is on our list there. That's definitely great research on your part. How about we talk about Mr. Bob Waterfield next? He's also in the Hall of Fame. What do you have on Bob Waterfield?
Larry Schmitt
He played for the Cleveland and the Los Angeles Rams Hall of Fame. The Rams have his number seven retired. He was a member of the 1946 Cleveland Rams NFL champions. They beat the Redskins that year on a frozen field. And in 1950, the Rams had a great year in Los Angeles where they are still the highest scoring team in NFL history. They averaged just short of 39 points a game.
Speaker 4
Wow.
Larry Schmitt
of modern football with all the rules that favor offense and passing the ball. Here he was about splitting time with Norm Van Broklin. The two of them combined for nearly 40 points a game back in 1950, where you could hit the quarterback, you could mug receivers going down the field, and you could only imagine how many points per game they would have put up if they had today's rules back then in 1950.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, that's for sure. And to boot, he was married to Jane Russell for a while.
Larry Schmitt
That's right, it's a good move for him going from Cleveland to Los Angeles, wasn't it?
Darin Hayes
right. Yeah, this Russell probably didn't want to live in the cold of the
Speaker 4
Midwest of Cleveland.
Larry Schmitt
The weather is much nicer there in Hollywood.
Darin Hayes
I agree well I say definitely Bob Waterfield on the list great great athlete in the NFL who do we have next up on our Hall of Famers for number seven
Larry Schmitt
We have, we have Dutch Clark.
Speaker 4
Oh yes.
Larry Schmitt
of the Portsmouth Spartans and then later the Detroit Lions, one of the, he might be the last true triple threat player. He could run, he could pass, and he could drop kick.
Speaker 4
Hmm
Larry Schmitt
George Halas, although he kicked a lot more extra points than George Halas did, I think Dutch Clark led the NFL, I think two, I know he led the NFL and touchdown scored three times and he led the league in extra points three times as well. And he led the league in field goals once too and he did it drop kicking. He was the last regular drop kicker. He played up through 1938. You know, by that point, the NFL started using the modern, more streamlined ball for passing since 1934, so still for, you know, four or five seasons, he was still drop kicking this ball that, you know, in the 1920s and early 30s was more like a rugby ball that was fatter and you need to drop it and boot it with a lot more accuracy, but.
Darin Hayes
the old melon ball they called it, I think it was referred to.
Larry Schmitt
I think Halas called it a pumpkin.
Speaker 4
Thank you.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, they streamlined that to make it a little less girth, so a quarterback could get his fingers around the ball, get a little bit better spiral, so good move on the NFL's part.
Larry Schmitt
And Clark had a big game in the Lions first championship in 1935 when they played the Giants. I'm just punching up that box score real quick just to make sure my memory isn't too fuzzy.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, he was part of that as a first postseason game in NFL history, uh, to decided to, uh, because, uh, uh, Portsmouth actually, the back then they had the NFL team with the best record. We've declared the champion, uh, Portsmouth was percentage points ahead of Chicago and Mr. Alice decided, Hey, we can't have that. He challenged Portsmouth to a championship game, uh, which ended up being played in a Chicago ended up winning. But yeah, Dutch Clark playing in that game.
Larry Schmitt
They had a lot of, that's changed a lot of rules to fit them into Chicago Stadium. They had the inbounds lines and the goal posts, and when they crossed the 50 yard line, they would march the ball back.
Speaker 4
And we're in.
Larry Schmitt
A lot of those rules became the rules in 1933 to help make the game more modern and more open.
Darin Hayes
Well, actually, you know what, Dutch wasn't, was not able to play in that championship game, uh, I recollect because he was the head basketball coach of, uh, Colorado college and his hoops team, which was his regular job at a game at December 18th, he couldn't get off work to make for the very first cent about championship.
Larry Schmitt
be making more money coaching college basketball than playing professional football.
Speaker 4
Absolutely.
Larry Schmitt
That's right, so Dutch Clark in 1935 in the championship game, he had 80 yards rushing and a touchdown and an extra point.
Darin Hayes
That's amazing at all. Definitely Dutch Clark on our list of some of the most substantial number sevens in NFL history. Who do you have up next for our number sevens of all time?
Larry Schmitt
Clarence Ace Parker of the Brooklyn Dodgers and also the Boston Yanks and the New York Yankees of the All -America Conference, which is a little bit of a story in and of itself because that's still all one franchise.
Darin Hayes
Right.
Larry Schmitt
Parker was with started with the Brooklyn Dodgers in 1937 and he was a do -it -all player He was a leader. He was a passer. He was a rusher. He played strong defense and he led he was the NFL MVP in 1940 and In 1940 in 1941 the Dodgers actually had a very very strong team. They were contenders for the East. They finished second Both years and you know Parker was the guy on the team and they were actually during those couple of years were actually Considered in the New York area on the same plateau as the Giants who were always, you know, the kings of football in New York
Darin Hayes
And he was another triple threat player back then he was two -way player great great ball player
Larry Schmitt
He was. He was probably the best player in New York at the time, you know, other than Mel Hine. But, you know, Mel Hine was the center. He was, you know, Parker was the ball handler. But then, you know, 1941, like many, many, many players, he had his football career interrupted by World War II. And he spent three years in the service. He came – when he came back in 1945, when the war was over, because of the man shortage, the Brooklyn – they changed their name to the Tigers in 1944. In 1945, the Brooklyn Tigers merged with the Boston Yanks. So Parker was the quarterback for the Boston Yanks for one season. It was planned to just be a one -year merger, like the Pittsville Steagles and Card Pitt. But the All -America Conference was being formed, and the owner of the Tigers decided he wanted to jump leagues and get involved with the All -America Conference. So when they unmerged in 1946, the Brooklyn Tigers became the New York Yankees of the All -America Conference with Parker as their quarterback. And the Yankees actually had a very good season. They won the East, and they played the Cleveland Browns in the first All -America Conference championship game.
Darin Hayes
I've read an interesting story on that, why they end up changing from the NFL to the AFC. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but according to what I read, the Mara's were upset because the Yankees wanted to play just across the river in the stadium. The Giants, as part of their territory, you can't do that. Go back out to Brooklyn and play. You're too close to our fan base.
Larry Schmitt
Right.
Darin Hayes
The gentleman, I forget his name, who owned the Yankees at the time, decided, Hey, well, forget it. We're going to join this other league so we can, you know, get into the league.
Larry Schmitt
entry fee which you know that you know this is I don't want to get too much off topic but that was a very very very expensive competition that you know the all -american conference and the NFL had against each other competing for players salad player salaries went way way up and this is right after the war and you know Yankee Stadium was walking distance from the polar ground he just walked right over the bridge across the Harlem River and you know sometimes the two teams will be playing at the same time and they're you know competing you know so the Giants attendance goes down because some players go across the river to watch Ace Parker with the Yankees
Speaker 4
Yes, that's such an amazing kind of...
Larry Schmitt
by jumping leaf. They don't have to pay an entry fee to the Giants because they're competing with the NFL. I can't remember the Brooklyn owner's name, but he had a very famous quote that I found in several of the newspapers where he claimed the NFL as being a racket by the big four, meaning the Giants, the Redskins, the Bears, and the Packers. He said the whole system is rigged. Nobody else gets a chance.
Darin Hayes
And that's part of what had Commissioner Burt Bell, that was what his, he used this as evidence of why to start the NFL draft, which we know is probably one of the greatest things that ever happened to.
Larry Schmitt
Anyway.
Darin Hayes
NFL. So wow, great, great stories on East Parker too. Definitely, definitely making our list here of our greatest number sevens. Who do we have next on our list?
Larry Schmitt
We have our second number seven from the Bears, Ed Sprinkle.
Speaker 4
Oh, yes.
Larry Schmitt
He was a member of the true Monsters of the Midway, he had the nickname the meanest man in pro football, so he put the monster in the Bears, he put it from 1944 up through 1955 and he was on their one championship team in that stretch which was 1946.
Darin Hayes
definitely definitely a great player there too. I had he had four interceptions in his career. He had 32 career passes caught for 451 yards and seven touchdowns.
Speaker 4
Bye, bye.
Larry Schmitt
He started in the single platoon era in the 1940s and then he finished in the more modern era in the 1950s where he was defense exclusively.
Darin Hayes
Truly amazing. Oh boy, okay. I guess that's it for our older era players that were the number seven that made the Hall of Fame, but we have a couple more contemporary players that many of those listening probably got an opportunity to at least watch play on television. So, Martin Anderson and John Elway, number seven.
Larry Schmitt
two more in the Hall of Fame. And I think I mentioned last time when we were talking about number one, my affinity for left -footed kickers, Morton Anderson, was a left -footed kicker, and he played, he started playing in 1982 when I was in high school, and played all the way up through 2007. Yeah, that's incredible. And he's one of the very few players who's on more than one all -decade team. He's on the all -decade team for the 1980s and the 1990s. So not only was he playing for a long time, he was obviously a very, very effective player.
Speaker 4
heh
Larry Schmitt
for those 25 years.
Darin Hayes
It's amazing you say that because in 1982, I was just starting high school myself and by the time his career ended in 2007, I had two of my children to graduate in high school by then.
Speaker 4
career.
Larry Schmitt
Yeah. And I know for the longest time, you know, again, last time when we were talking, we're talking about, you know, kickers and how records, you know, the accuracy just keeps going up and up and up and guys make 50 yarders, no problem. He was really the first one like in the 1980s could kick 50 plus yard field goals with better than expected accuracy. And he, I know, we held the record for a very long time for field goal percentage, you know, it's since been passed by more recent players, but he held that record for a very, very long time.
Darin Hayes
He's absolutely right.
Larry Schmitt
left foot. He did it with his left foot.
Speaker 4
Put a different signal on the wall. Yes, he was.
Larry Schmitt
season for the Giants he was the bulk of his career was the Saints he started with the Saints and they played a long time for the Falcons and then he bounced around a bit in his last couple of years
Darin Hayes
definitely a great player definitely deserving of being in the Hall of Fame and on our list of the greatest number sevens to play the game. Okay now we get to sort of one that everybody knows Mr. John Elway. What do you think about Elway?
Larry Schmitt
I think he is no question one of the most unique players I've ever seen play the quarterback position. You know, I remember in the 1980s, you know, my Giants were on their way to their first Super Bowl and I'm watching the highlights and I'm watching this guy run this drive against the Cleveland Browns in Cleveland from their own 2 -yard line. I'm like, oh, we've got to play him again because the Giants played the Broncos in the regular season in Giants Stadium and that was a really, really tough game. The Giants were, you know, that game was in question all the way to the end. They had a last minute drive to kick a field goal to win. Elway, he had this, he could, for a big man and he could move and he could throw the ball farther than anyone I've ever seen on the, probably even including up till today. You know, he could run to the left sideline and throw a ball 50 yards downfield diagonally toward the right sideline and hit a guy between the numbers.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, I just watched the program the other night, Peyton Manning has a program on ESPN Plus, it's called Peyton's Places, and he had John Elway on just a few weeks ago. And John Elway was Peyton Manning's boss for a few years when he was with Denver. And they talked about Elway's, that 98 -yard kill, the drive against Cleveland in the 1986 NFL Championship game, and what was going through Elway's mind, but they showed the replay of that famous pass, and I forget whose wide receiver it was that did the slant route that he found open in the end zone when the linebacker pulled off on his back. But Elway threw that off -balance and side -armed and threw a powerful ball into that strike for the touchdown.
Larry Schmitt
Yeah, I remember seeing him running and making those plays in that muddy jersey and he was tough. He was physically tough.
Speaker 4
A lot of hits.
Larry Schmitt
Yeah, it was Mark Jackson that he... Mark Jackson, you're correct.
Darin Hayes
That's right, yeah. They also talked about the infamous Elway cross, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with that.
Larry Schmitt
John Madden used to talk about that. In practice, he would throw the ball so hard to the receivers that the point on the ball would get embedded in the player's chest.
Darin Hayes
Matter of fact, Manning, just to show that Elway still had the arm strength here, you know, many years later after his playing days were over, he had a gelatin, like a ballistic dummy set up and they had Elway throw a ball at him, you know, and the Elway Cross was showing up on the gelatin man still to this day with Elway's arm strength, so great ball player, great baseball player too, he could have a great baseball career.
Larry Schmitt
He had the mechanics, you know, he threw the ball his whole body. He had, you know, we had those big legs He almost had like, you know, running backs legs, which was very very unusual for the when he came up in the 1980s And you know his body mechanics you just get his whole body behind the throw And I'm sure some of that came from his training of you know, being on the pitcher's mound
Darin Hayes
It's interesting you say that because the Peyton Manning episode talked about when he was starting high school playing football, he played running back when he was younger in Little Gridders. He was going to his first high school practice, his father who was a coach I believe at the time was driving him to practice and asked John what position he's going to go off on. John goes, I'm going to be running back of course, that's a position I've been playing. He said his dad pulled the car over, 15 minutes later he got out of the car and said, Coach I want to be quarterback.
Larry Schmitt
You can't waste that arm talent running the ball right better. You got to deliver it
Darin Hayes
They showed footage of him in high school, you know, so this is, you know, late seventies. He's playing, um, uh, a spread formation and he's probably eight, nine yards back in the shotgun formation, almost the position of a punter playing the spread formation football in high school, which the NFL hadn't even really adopted yet.
Larry Schmitt
that was pretty rare. I remember the Cowboys and the Buffalo Bills. They were the few teams that used to shotgun. Everybody was under center at that time.
Darin Hayes
Okay, I think that we covered all seven of our hall of famers that were the number seven now. So now we want to try to get to that dozen. So we have to come up with five other names and we have quite an array of folks to choose from. One that I want to bring up because he's from my team and currently still playing, of course we don't know about next year, but Ben Roethlisberger wearing number seven.
Larry Schmitt
Speaking of big quarterback. Yes.
Speaker 4
Yes, Big Ben. What do you have on Big Ben, if anything?
Larry Schmitt
Yeah, well I have a lot. Big Ben, he's actually one of the few players on this list that I've actually seen play in person. I was at the game, at the last game of the regular season in 2004 when the Giants hosted the Steelers, and of course Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger came out of that very famous quarterback class that year.
Darin Hayes
along with Phillip Rivers that year.
Larry Schmitt
and Phillip Rivers.
Darin Hayes
All right.
Larry Schmitt
Big Ben is still going at it. Phillip Rivers just played his last game, and like you mentioned, Ben, we're not sure yet, but he's still playing quality football. He had a big year last year, and Stewart has won a lot of games, and he's led the NFL in passing yards twice, and he's been in three Super Bowls, and he came away the winner twice, and that's not a bad resume for someone who you and I, I think, probably both agree, will end up in the Hall of Fame one day.
Darin Hayes
I believe he will. He was a 2004 AP rookie of the year. He's played in six Pro Bowls so far. I always like to look at that touchdown's interceptions on quarterbacks. And so far in his career, 396 TDs, 200 interceptions. So almost a two to one touchdown interception, which is pretty good for a quarterback. And he's thrown for just over 60 ,000 yards, which is another pretty dynamic statistic to look at. And who knows, he's probably not done.
Larry Schmitt
All the categories, completions, yards, touchdowns, played in a bunch of playoff games and he's won a couple of Super Bowls. And actually one record that I remember also from that rookie season in 2004, Phil Simms in 1979 set what turns out to be a very modest record, but at the time he won his first four consecutive starts as a rookie quarterback. And that record lasted until 2004 when the Steelers had a big year that year in 2004 and Roethlisberger won, they finished 15 -1 and Roethlisberger, how many games, was it 13 in a row?
Darin Hayes
I think he won all 15 because the game that he lost was the game he came in. He came in against the Ravens and he didn't start that game and I believe it was Tommy Maddox and I was there one loss during the season.
Larry Schmitt
They were one, so he pushed the record from four wins to 14.
Darin Hayes
and one or two playoffs.
Larry Schmitt
Good luck for the next rookie to break to win 15 in a row.
Darin Hayes
And if you kind of one or two playoff games that they won because they end up losing the AFC Championship game to New England that year in a young Tom Brady
Larry Schmitt
They beat the Jets, so he did get 15 in a row, but they only count as 14 in a row in the regular season.
Darin Hayes
Great.
Larry Schmitt
That's not too bad for a rookie.
Darin Hayes
No, not too bad at all. Not too bad. And if it is, we don't know, but if this past season was Roethlisberger's last season in the NFL or last with the Steelers, they lost a bad heartbreaker to Cleveland. He sort of, the game got away from him real early. But he threw for over 500 yards at 38 years old. That's still a pretty impressive number to bring them back.
Larry Schmitt
on that shoulder after the game.
Darin Hayes
He probably still has it on right now, a month or so later. Okay, there are a lot of other real good quarterbacks that are on this list and I'm not sure if you have any in particular you want to bring up or you want me to mention one.
Larry Schmitt
I have one guy who's really interesting, he had a very unusual career arc, is Joe Sizeman.
Speaker 4
Oh yes.
Larry Schmitt
He was a big -time quarterback for the Washington Redskins in the late 70s and the early 80s, and they were actually on that list of highest scoring teams ever. The 1983 Redskins, they challenged that record by the 1950 Rams for a while. They came just a little bit short, but the 1983 Redskins averaged, I think it was 34. Yeah, it was 33 .8 points per game in 1983. They were coming off of Super Bowl. They had beaten the Dolphins in the strike short year in 1982 in the Super Bowl, and the 1983 Redskins were just a ridiculous football machine. They had a great year that year, and they were actually favored to beat the Raiders in the Super Bowl, but it didn't quite work out that way. The Redskins were 14 -2, and they were just demolishing teams, and they beat the Rams in the divisional playoff 51 -7, and then they played a classic game against the 49ers in RK Stadium, an NFL championship game. But before Theismann became the quarterback, he played it Notre Dame, and he wasn't drafted in the NFL. He ended up playing a couple of years in Canada in the CFL, and including returning punts. He was just such a competitor, and he wanted to get on the field, and he was willing to do anything. He played three years in Canada. He was a punt returner, and then he joined Washington in 1974, and he was the backup for a number of years before he took over. And you could see some of that skill that he had. He was a running quarterback. He wasn't as big as guys like Elway and Rothasberg, and he was a small guy, but he would run, and he played with a single -bar face mask, and he wasn't shy about dropping his shoulder and fighting for extra yards as a runner, and he could throw the ball well, and he was one of the guys that I watched growing up. He was in the NFC East. I watched him twice a week here against the Giants, and he was playing great games against the Cowboys, and got to a couple of Super Bowls, played in Pro Bowls.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, probably one of the games against the Giants you regret because it sort of ended his career when Lawrence Taylor hit him on that vicious sack and probably one of the most horrific plays that anybody could ever watch in football with his leg only a couple different ways.
Larry Schmitt
like a warrior. He was like one of the Roman gladiators. They carried him off the battlefield on his shield. I remember watching that. That was a tough one.
Darin Hayes
I think that was a Monday night game too, I believe.
Larry Schmitt
It was, yeah, it was a Monday night.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, that was a horrific injury. All right. He's definitely under consideration. Uh, I have another, uh, person that you probably watched from the seventies that was in the AFC East were on Jaworski, uh, were number seven.
Larry Schmitt
Unlike Joe Seizmann, Ron Jaworski was not known as a runner.
Speaker 4
No, no.
Larry Schmitt
He was a classic drop back throw the ball from the, throw the ball from the pocket. But he was a very, very intelligent player. He was a guy who could read a defense and he would, you know, go through his progressions and he would deliver the ball in the right place at the right time to the right guy. And he was a tremendous leader. And you know, the Eagles had struggled through much of the seventies and it was, you know, in the later seventies when Dick Rameel took over, Ron Jaworski was the quarterback and they started to climb back and they made the playoffs several years in a row and they had that big year in 1980 where, where again, they were favored to beat the Raiders in the Super Bowl and they didn't quite work out that way.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, I think the Raiders like
Larry Schmitt
way of beating the NFC East teams in the Super Bowl.
Speaker 4
to see that.
Larry Schmitt
The Eagles, they were 12 -4. I remember they had a big, big win against the Cowboys at the vet in the NFC championship game. It was freezing cold and the Eagles wore white jerseys to force the Cowboys to wear blue. They had a big game and they went to the Super Bowl with a lot of momentum. But that didn't take away from Ron Jaworski's year. That was his first Pro Bowl season in 1980.
Darin Hayes
You know, there's a lot of parallels between Theismann and Jaworski besides both playing and, you know, opposing teams in the NFC East. But again, if I look at that, a couple of different statistics, which just kind of surprised me because I thought them to be pretty much equal as far as starting quarterbacks. But Theismann, his touchdowns, he had 160 touchdowns to 138 interceptions. Jaworski was 179 TDs to 164 interceptions. I didn't remember Jaworski throwing that many interceptions, but obviously he did record that.
Larry Schmitt
It was just the style of football at the time. It was not abnormal for quarterbacks to have higher interception totals. You know, it was Bill Walsh with his West Coast offense with the 49ers that really reduced that, you know, always have a safety valve, always have a place for the quarterback to deliver the ball when he's in trouble. You know, the offenses prior to Bill Walsh were more vertical, you know, throw the ball downfield. And, you know, coaches would tell their passers, you know, don't be shy about throwing at the coverage. You know, make the play. And, you know, if you're gonna throw in, make a mistake, make it deep. But, you know, a long interception is almost as good as a punt. So it was just a different mentality. And a quarterback, say, throwing 20 touchdowns in a season with 16 or 17 or 18 interceptions wasn't uncommon. You know, today you'd be horrified. Like, oh my God, he's killing my fantasy team. He's throwing touchdowns. But look at all these interceptions. It was just different back then. And, you know, defenses were able to play against receivers. You know, you could, they had the five yard chuck rule, but still you would see guys running downfield with hand checking and contact. And quarterbacks were allowed to get drilled in the pocket. You know, you'd release the ball and a guy could still take a couple of steps and slam you. And that was just good football. It was just a different era.
Speaker 4
Yeah, the other thing is...
Darin Hayes
Thank you. The other thing that sort of surprised me was his overall, Jaworski's overall record was only four games over 500. I showed you some of the teams that were struggling of the Eagles in those early 70s before Verneal got there.
Larry Schmitt
Yeah, he was part of the turnaround, but those strong teams they had in the late 70s and their 1980, 81, they were in the playoffs and he was the guy. He was the reason that they had those successful seasons.
Speaker 4
Hit him, definitely.
Larry Schmitt
He was part of the growing process.
Darin Hayes
Definitely, and you can tell, even to this day, you see some of Jaworski's film study of current players. It's just he does a great job of breaking down film.
Larry Schmitt
forever. You know like Madden, there's a generation of football fans who knew Madden as the guy with the Telestrator broadcasting games and there's a generation of fans that know Jaworski as the guy on ESPN doing the NFL matchup with the same stuff with the diagrams and breaking down plays in real time for everybody. He was very, very, very intelligent. He was an excellent player.
Darin Hayes
All right, and I have a few other quarterbacks that I think probably ought to talk about. Well, we have another one that played in the Super Bowl, Boomer Esiason.
Larry Schmitt
played in one of the great Super Bowls of the 80s. It was 1988. That was the year that the Bengals had there. It wasn't a hurry up offense, but it wasn't a no huddle. But I think he was, it was before Jim Kelly and the Bills had the K -Gun because they played the Bills in the playoffs and that's what gave Marv Levy that idea. But they were, you know, rushed up to the line, called the play at the line, you know, Boomer Sison, another intelligent player who could read a defense pre -snap and then after the snap he would go through his progressions and deliver the ball to the right guy at the right time. And they darn near won that Super Bowl, but you know, I'm sure when you get to number 16 in a week or two you'll be talking about Joe Montana, but that's a whole other story.
Speaker 4
Right, right.
Larry Schmitt
And we're a very, very prolific offense to Bengals under Esaiason.
Darin Hayes
But here's his stats, 247 touchdowns, 184 interceptions, not a bad ratio there, but his win loss as a starter, 80 and 93, under 500, and it sort of shows.
Larry Schmitt
He had a couple of rough seasons with the Jets and then he went to the Cardinals. I'll bet his record with Cincinnati is above 500.
Darin Hayes
One game over 562 and 61 with the Bengals, 15 and 27 with the Jets, and 3 and 5 with the Cardinals.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Darin Hayes
But again, an interesting one to talk about because you did take a team to a Super Bowl.
Speaker 4
He did.
Darin Hayes
Yes. Now, I have a quarterback that I really enjoyed watching when I was younger in the 70s, and that's Burt Jones, played for the Colts. I thought he was an interesting quarterback to watch, sort of in that post -Unitus era of the Baltimore Colts, and they were looking for Miller.
Larry Schmitt
He was a great quarterback and a lot of arm talent, he was a great thrower in the football with mechanics and he had a strong arm and he was accurate. Unfortunately his career was shortened by injury.
Speaker 4
Yes
Larry Schmitt
when you look at the rims, I believe.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, he played his last season with the Rams. Nine with the Baltimore Colts and one with the Rams. 124 touchdowns in his career, 101 interceptions, and overall record of 47 and 49. With the Colts, he was dead even 46 and 46.
Larry Schmitt
Yes, he had a lot of good teams in Baltimore, but then toward the end there in the early 80s they were declining and they wanted to get younger when they sent them to Los Angeles and then he had his injury that unfortunately ended his career.
Darin Hayes
Yeah and he was a first team All -Pro and MVP of the NFL iShow too. I'm not sure. I think that must have been 1976 possibly. So a very interesting player number seven for the Baltimore Colts. Another interesting quarterback I have on this list is Mr. Randall Countingham of the Eagles. Another Eagles quarterback at war seven.
Larry Schmitt
Wait, didn't we talk about him? He also wore number one.
Darin Hayes
I think you're right. Yeah, we did. It's your last time you run.
Larry Schmitt
a couple different numbers so he's going to show up a lot.
Darin Hayes
Right, it probably is best number 12.
Larry Schmitt
He wore it seven with the Vikings, am I correct?
Darin Hayes
Yet, three seasons of the Vikings and one with Dallas, he wore number seven.
Larry Schmitt
Yeah, and he was with Minnesota throwing the ball to Randy Moss's rookie season.
Darin Hayes
Yes, he was
Larry Schmitt
Those high arcing passes to that tall skinny leg receiver downfield.
Darin Hayes
Randy Moss with his starter.
Larry Schmitt
50-50 balls
Darin Hayes
Right. That is definitely right. But yeah, he was probably his better years were wearing the number 12 with the Eagles, except for, like I said, those Vikings years, he did have some good years there too. But definitely somebody to put a name in there to talk about. Another name that I had is Ken O 'Brien wore the number 7 for about 9 -10 seasons with the Jets I believe.
Larry Schmitt
Yeah, he had a couple of really good years in the mid 80s, 1985, 1986, he had some very famous quarterback duels with Dan Marino, they had that game in 1986, he threw four touchdown passes all to Wesley Walker, I think both quarterbacks threw for over 500 yards that day, the Jets won it over time, it was something like 51 to 45, but anytime in the middle 80s when the Jets and the Dolphins were playing, you knew there was going to be balls in the air and a lot of points on the scoreboard.
Darin Hayes
Oh, you know, and something I failed to mention with Cunningham, he had, I mean, I thought this was a pretty great stat, 207 touchdowns, 134 interceptions. So he took care of the ball better than I remembered him doing it, plus all the yard that he gained on the ground with his legs, so phenomenal. And O 'Brien ended up having 128 touchdowns in his 10-year career and 98 interceptions for that. So definitely some names to consider there. And let's see, Michael Vick wearing the number seven. Probably his best years, you know, were Atlanta and with the Eagles, and he wore the number seven with both those teams.
Larry Schmitt
And he had a thousand-yard rushing season.
Darin Hayes
Yes, yes he did.
Larry Schmitt
I'd say probably the only quarterback of the modern era, you know, first guy since like, you know, the modern, I don't know how many quarterbacks in the 1940s were running for a thousand and throwing for a thousand, but that's certainly a rare feat.
Darin Hayes
Definitely is. And for his stats, he had 133 career touchdowns, 88 interceptions, a record of 61 and 51. So definitely a much better record than I remember. I guess he's sort of tainted after his career.
Larry Schmitt
Yeah.
Darin Hayes
years absent from the league for some things we won't mention because we're positive football here we don't want to talk about that but he came back wasn't quite the player he was before that that run that he had. The other the other player I had that I think that you'd like to talk about is Elmer Angsman.
Larry Schmitt
All right, going way back.
Speaker 4
Yes
Larry Schmitt
Chicago Cardinals. He probably has one of the most eye -catching box scores for a championship game in history. The last time the Cardinals won the NFL title was 1947 in Comiskey Park against the Eagles. They beat the Eagles 28 -21. Engsman had two 70 -yard rushing touchdowns in that game. Including one in the fourth quarter, that proved to be the game winner. It put the Cardinals up 28 -14 and they ended up winning 28 -21. But for the game, Engsman had 10 carries for 159 yards. Two touchdowns including the game winner. So that's a big game performance right there. 16 yards a carry and two touchdowns.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, absolutely. A couple other more modern -day quarterbacks. This one's another one from the 70s. Dan Pastoreni wore number seven with the Oilers and he was at a year in Oakland where he wore number seven. That's the majority of his career. Ten of his 12 years were number seven. He ended up having a touchdown to interception ratio, not that great. 103 touchdowns, 161 interceptions, so didn't really care for them.
Larry Schmitt
A lot of that is just 1970s football.
Darin Hayes
Right, of course, when you have real family.
Speaker 4
Hahaha
Darin Hayes
Yeah, Earl Campbell standing behind you certainly takes some pressure off your statistics, too.
Larry Schmitt
Yeah, well he played a lot of years before Earl Campbell was on the team, but I'm sure Earl made his job a lot of you here once he arrived.
Darin Hayes
Most definitely, most definitely. Another one I have is Doug Flutie who's sort of an interesting, didn't wear number seven long. He wore with the Buffalo Bills and with San Diego Chargers.
Larry Schmitt
guy who actually had big years in the middle of his career, he left the NFL for Canada, and he's in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame, and I believe he's pretty universally regarded as the best player in CFL history.
Darin Hayes
really over, over Warren Moon.
Larry Schmitt
I think so, yes. I saw an NFL films feature on Flutie a few years ago and they had a lot of guys from Canada, general managers and players and coaches. I think north of the border in Canada there's a lot of regard for Doug Flutie. They like him up there, Bill, the CFL fans.
Darin Hayes
Well, we had a friend of mine Oz Davis on discussing the number twos of Flutie also were the number two on his Jersey and Oz is a really Enjoys the CFL game knows very knowledgeable about CFL and he talked quite a bit about that too with Flutie and the CFL career and his NFL career and he ended up making our top five it lists for the number two players, so Yeah, very very interesting player there I have one other one that I wanted to mention actually two other ones We have Colin Kaepernick who played in the Super Bowl the war the number seven interesting and controversial figure
Larry Schmitt
Yeah, another running quarterback.
Darin Hayes
Yes, yes. He used his legs well. It was really when he played for San Francisco, it was just a real threat. You didn't know what to do if you were a defender. You want to leave him because he was pretty good with his arm too. There were a couple of seasons he had that were really outstanding. Another one is Craig Morton who is a long time player in the NFL. Didn't wear seven for very long. Most of the time he was a 14, but with Denver when he probably had some of his greatest seasons near the end of his career. He was the number seven for Denver before he came out.
Larry Schmitt
He made a Super Bowl in that number seven, because he spent three years with the Giants, he wore fifteen. Well they got him midway in the 1974 season, he was fifteen. He came from Dallas and then the Giants traded him to Denver and then he went on to a Super Bowl.
Darin Hayes
Yes, he did.
Larry Schmitt
We had a great, great regular season, but like some of our other number sevens had our rough game in the Super Bowl. The Dallas had the doomsday defense going and they ended up with two defensive linemen were co -NVPs for the game because they were playing a game of let's meet at the quarterback.
Darin Hayes
It's never a good day for a quarterback when they're playing that game, that's for sure.
Larry Schmitt
Now, it was Randy White and Harvey Martin, if I remember correctly.
Darin Hayes
You're right, you're right. Well, okay, I think we have a pretty good collection of, I mean, we already said we're gonna put the seven Hall of Famers in, and I'll just review that. We have Morton Anderson, Dutch Clark, John Elway, George Halas, Mel Hine, Ace Parker, Ed Sprinkle, and Bob Waterfield, seven Hall of Famers. We have those seven locked up into our dozen greatest players of wearing the number seven NFO history. Now we have all these other ones, a lot of them quarterbacks that, to decide if we can come to some agreement who those other five names should be. Who do you, who would you think on your list? I mean, I've got a list of five that I'd want. I can go first if you want. Sure. Okay, I'm gonna say Ben Roethlisberger, not only because of, well, he plays for my team, but I think he's gonna be probably a first ballot Hall of Famer when his name comes up after he retires. No question, no question. And I'm gonna, the other ones are gonna be a little controversial and this is debatable. I'm gonna say Michael Vick as a number seven should be on the list because I think early in his career, his stats show that he was a truly great substantial player. I'm gonna say Boomer Esiason, Ron Jaworski, and Randall Cunningham. That rounds out my five that I think.
Larry Schmitt
I like that five. I think, you know, I'm an NFC East guy. I definitely got to go for Heisman. I like his style of play. I like that he played a few years in the CFL, returning puns, came to the NFL, you know, as a quarterback. And he was multidimensional. He could run, but he could throw. He made it to two Super Bowls. He won one of them. You know, one of the most prolific offenses in 1983, Redskins, you know, averaging almost 35 points a game. So, you know, I'm going to put a vote in there for Joe Seisman.
Darin Hayes
Okay, I can't debate that. Who do you think we should take off that between Roffel, Sperter, Vick, Gossias, and Jaworski in Cunningham? Who would you take off that list to put Theismann in there?
Larry Schmitt
Uh, I guess either Vick or Esiason.
Darin Hayes
That's who I'm thinking also.
Larry Schmitt
One of those, you know, Basyas and he did have a couple of very, very high peak years, but, you know, those few, not that his fault, the Jets weren't a good team when he went there or the Cardinals, but, you know, his overall career losing record. But still, you know, he was part of an innovative offense there with Sam Weiss and Cincinnati. Michael Vick, I think of him more as a runner than a passer. One of those two guys.
Darin Hayes
Okay. I mean, I guess you could go either way with that. I'm going to say probably, you know, I think you convinced me. I'm thinking I'm going to take Michael Vick off and put Theismann in there, but I think Vick is like, you know, a 12A if we're talking to talk 12. So, you talked me into it. I agree with you. I think Theismann ought to be on that list. So, hey, so just again, just a review, we have Martin Anderson, Dutch Clark, John Elway, George Halas, Mel Hine, Ace Parker, Ed Sprinkle, Bob Waterfield, Ben Roethlisberger, Boomer Syessin, Ron Jaworski, Randall Cunningham, and Joe Theismann as our top 12 number sevens ever to win the game. That's the list that Larry Schmidt and I have come up with for this pigskin dispatch football by numbers. And Larry, we really appreciate your time and coming on again to talk with us. Before we let you go, do you have anything coming up that you want to talk about, any projects you have with the big blue interactive or with the gridiron uniform database that you got coming up that our listeners could take a look at?
Larry Schmitt
Well, Bill and I are, we're always busy behind the scenes doing lots of research for the Gridiron Uniform Database. We spent the last few days, he and I, I don't want to give away the surprise, but keep an eye on the early 1930s bears. There's going to be a little bit of a makeover that might be a little, might be a little surprising. It'll definitely be interesting for any, or any fans of 1930s football. You're going to see the bears come up with a change. He and I have been working on that. And I'm just, you know, I'm working on my book slowly but surely.
Darin Hayes
That's right, that's right.
Larry Schmitt
All right, well, hey, when you're writing, it's going to take me a long time. It's going to take a couple of years.
Darin Hayes
Well, I'll tell you what, if you were Bill, make sure you drop me a line when you put out your announcement on your findings. I'll be sure to share on the podcast and on pixkin -dispatch .com website so that folks can be steered your way to take a look at that Gridiron uniform database website to see what the surprise is. Yeah, good. Thank you. I'll let you know. It should be okay.
Larry Schmitt
I think.
Darin Hayes
All right. Well, Larry Schmidt, thank you once again for joining us. We really appreciate your time and for all the great research and history that you brought to us here on the podcast.
Larry Schmitt
My pleasure. Thanks for having me on. It's always lots of fun.
Darin Hayes
It definitely is. Thanks Larry. Well, we have great. Thanks to offer to Larry Schmitt once again joining us on a great discussion on the number seven jerseys Hope you enjoyed that and hopefully we'll have Larry on again But we have some other great guests coming on to discuss football by numbers coming up For the number 10s and 11s.
