Football History

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Have you ever wondered how the game of football shapes the American presidency? Today, we delve into the fascinating intersection of sports and politics with author Chris Calizza, whose book, Power Players: Sports, Politics, & the American Presidency, explores the surprising connections between the gridiron and the Oval Office.

Chris Calizza joins us to unpack the ways presidents have used sports to connect with voters, build their image, and even find inspiration for leadership. We'll discuss iconic sports figures who have interacted with presidents, the evolution of sports fandom in American politics, and the lasting impact athletes can have on the national conversation.

Whether you're a sports fanatic, a political junkie, or simply curious about the unexpected links between these two seemingly disparate worlds, this episode promises a captivating conversation. So, grab your favorite jersey (or political hat!), settle in, and get ready to explore the fascinating world of Power Players with Chris Calizza!

-Transcript of Power Players Interview with Chris Calizza

Darin Hayes
Sports history friends, this is Darin Hayes of the Sports Jersey Dispatch Podcast. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to all things great in sports history. And welcome to another edition where we are going to bring on a very interesting author of a recent book that he has released. He is a person who has been a lot in journalism and politics and is now writing a little bit of books on sports. His name is Chris Calizza, and he has written a book, Power Players, Sports Politics and the American Presidency. Chris, welcome to the Pigpen.

Chris Calizza
Thank you for having me.

Darin Hayes
Now, Chris, you have a very well -known career, you've worked for CNN, the Washington Post, and we know how you've reported on politics and things like that, and what brings you into crossing over a little bit into the sports world?

Chris Calizza
Totally. Great question. Well, so I would say that once I gave up my dreams of being in the NBA at about 13 or 14, I had to look for another career. And what always interested me was journalism. Honestly, sports journalism was what interested me most; I wound up going into politics, and I got jobs in college that were sort of in political journalism, and I wound up going into that space. But I always sort of kept my interest in and love of sports there. So when my editor and the publishing house came to me and said, Hey, you want to write another book, I knew that that was the space I wanted to be in because I've always been so passionate about sports and politics. Now, the question was, how do we get into a space where we touch both of those fan bases? You know, how do you write about sports and politics smartly? And honestly, it took a long time to sort the seed to germinate and think of the right way to do it. And you know, we eventually came up with this idea that what we would do is we would look at the sports that presidents played both as kids, and then also as they age, sports, they love sports, they watched on television or listened to on the radio, and what that could tell us about who they are and how they governed when in office. Now, that was the idea. And I think anytime you launch a book, you're like, here, here's my idea. Let's do some research, editing, and writing and see if that bears itself out. If it doesn't, we'll scrap it and try something else. Lucky for me, that first idea came true, and it worked in a way that made me really happy with the final product.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I mean, it's really very clever that you married the two. These are, you know, the things that you see on the headlines of the front page of newspapers, you know, anything that the President does, anything big in sports that happens, you combine the two into one, uh, segment and put it in this book, it's just very interesting, and I guess it almost models what you did in the book with the presidents to your enjoyment. You, you, love politics. You combine sports in it and, uh, sort of marries up very well.

Chris Calizza
Yeah, no, it was entirely a selfish idea on my part because I wanted to write I wanted to write something I was interested in. I mean, I think the best books, in my experience, and the best journalism, generally speaking, come from a place of people who are passionate about it. I always say that if you're not passionate about what you're writing about, it's hard to get somebody to pay, you know, whatever $25 for a hardcover copy of a book. So, I really wanted to make sure it was a topic I felt passionate about and that I could bring that passion to the writing. So yes, no question. This was a reflection of my own interests, and then thinking hard about, you know, are there enough people who have those two similar interests? And then what can we say that is interesting about sports and politics? I just didn't want to write a book that was like, there's sports, and there's politics; I wanted to say something interesting about the connection between the two. That was the focus and the goal.

Darin Hayes
Well, you did very well at both of those. And I think just to give the listeners a little idea about the general dynamic of the book, you're covering the last 12 or 13 presidents. I think you have them all included, from Ike all the way to Joe Biden.

Chris Calizza
13 presidents. There are great stories about presidents before the modern era, basically since World War II. George Washington has great stories about how he bent an iron bar in half. He threw a ball over the Potomac River. There's some really good stuff in there, but ultimately, I thought I wanted to have something that was not a thousand pages long. That was my one thing. I don't think I could, and I didn't want to write a book that was that long. I wanted it to feel manageable. I wanted it to feel like, even though some people, I'm 47, I don't remember Dwight Eisenhower's time in office, it was like post-World War II was a manageable and digestible group of presidents, 13 presidents, all of whom had some connection or other two sports that we could tell those stories about.

Darin Hayes
You get into some details. Uh, you know, I don't remember Dwight Eisenhower, other than the history books myself, but I, I'm a little bit older. I can remember Nixon, uh, being present. That's sort of the first one I have, but you touch base and, uh, their connection to sports, whether they were a great fan or participated in, uh, some amateur activity or maybe played major college football as some of the presidents did. And I found that really very entertaining.

Chris Calizza
Yeah, you know, one thing that was cool about doing the research and that encouraged me was, with the exception of Lyndon Johnson, all of the other presidents played or spectated or loved sports in some way, shape, or form. So, you know, Eisenhower loved golf. He played more golf than any president before Orson. Nixon loved to bowl, which is a little bit weird, but that was Nixon. He was a little bit of a loner. You know, one of my favorite stories is Nixon told the White House press corps that when he felt stressed out, he would often at night go and bowl at ten o ''o'clock or not at night go and bowl that he had lanes put in the White House and he would bowl between seven and 12 games a night, which is remarkable. This idea of the President of the United States just kind of rolling frame after frame after frame. I found it pretty compelling, particularly because I think it's revealing about who Nixon was. Nixon was a little bit of a loner. He was socially awkward. He was not good at small talk. And this idea of him bowling literally alone, I thought, was a powerful image.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it wasn't speaking of image. You have an image of Nixon bowling a game. And when you said, you know, he's bowling like a dozen games. And I have family that owns bowling lanes here in Western Pennsylvania. So I do quite a bit of bowling. And I know how tiring it is after three games where you're bowling in a league. It's not ball after ball after ball. And you have an image of Nixon wearing a white button-down shirt with a tie all the way hooked up. And I'm like, my goodness gracious, that's that's quite a workout.

Chris Calizza
He was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was always sort of formal, I think Nixon. And yeah, you know, one thing that's interesting is he, as kind of makes sense, he actually got pretty good at bowling, uh, over time, uh, he bolded 229 at one point, seven strikes, including four in a row. That was his best game ever. But I mean, that's pretty good for an amateur. He's not a professional bowler, right? But for an amateur bowler, that's not bad. But again, he bolded a lot.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, he definitely got a lot of practice with us. So, can you talk to me and mention a little bit about what you have? We have quite a few of these 13 presidents who love to golf. You know, you talked about Ike, who is probably one of the better golfers. You talked about some guys that maybe weren't so good but still enjoyed the support. I guess, um, you know, no, having the knowledge that you have of these guys golfing and sharing that with the audience, if you had to pick up three guys to be in a foursome, you know, these presidents that they're all in your prime and could golf, who would be the three presidents that you would want to golf with from this group?

Chris Calizza
definitely, Eisenhower, not because he was particularly good. He was fine, you know, he played a lot, but the reason I would want Eisenhower is that he was a member in Augusta, and I would. I'm not getting on Augusta otherwise, so that's what gets me on Augusta. We're playing a foursome in Augusta, and you have a place to stay.

Darin Hayes
There, too, with the cabin built for him

Chris Calizza
how we're having them build it for him. And there's a bunch of that in the book, too, about how that came about. But yes. And then I think Trump would probably be interesting to play with. He's quite a good golfer. He's not as good as he says he is, but he's probably a five or six handicap. I mean, for someone his age, he's pretty good. The last one, I would say, is John Kennedy. John Kennedy is probably the best natural golfer of the 13 I looked at. He really downplayed how much golf he played and how good he was at it because he was concerned that this sort of idea of golf is an elitist sport. He already had that image of his father, being from a wealthy family and sort of patrician and blue blood. He didn't want to play into that, but he was quite a good golfer. So I would like to see Kennedy. I think that would also be hilarious for some of the military heroes, the guy from Camelot and the pro wrestling President, Donald Trump.

Darin Hayes
have indeed been very interesting. And I found that you know, you're, what you did with Dwight Eisenhower, you know, I knew about the Eisenhower tree, at least the basic story, but you did tell you went on about that and about the cabin, Augusta building it because he attended so much and like the played house.

Chris Calizza
all the time. Yeah, he was literally there all the time. So they built the house for him. I mean, it's nice. And it was, interestingly, made to look like a replica of the White House. He painted there pretty regularly. I mean, he sort of made, in a lot of ways, Augusta Augusta, right? The way that we think of it now is that it is probably the most exclusive golf club in the world, right? But you know, back in the 50s, it was a little bit actually 40s; it was a little bit different than that. Eisenhower brought a sort of fame to it and a level of attention to it that it didn't already have. And I think Augusta recognizes that that's why they built him the Eisenhower cabin, right? They loved having a president or a former president and a former military hero on the grounds, playing and talking about Augusta and being a member.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. And, you know, Eisenhower was a much deeper athlete than just golf in his older years. You know, we know from our website, Pigskin Dispatch, and you've mentioned in the book quite a bit that he was quite the football player back in his days at the Academy.

Chris Calizza
He was, and you know, it's so funny you think of it. I always think of this in relation to Bo Jackson, who was not a president of the United States, but like Bo Jackson had, Bo Jackson injured himself. Bo Jackson was a hero of my, you know, I'm 47. So right in my wheelhouse, you know, with the Raiders and the Royals. And if Bo Jackson had injured himself the way he injured himself and basically ended his career now, you know, he's probably out for a year, and then he comes back, you know, medical technology being what it is. Well, go back another 35 or 40 years; Eisenhower hurt his knee playing football, and that's it. I mean, he no longer plays football, even though that was sort of one of the reasons he was at the Naval Academy in the first place. So it's, you know, talking about being blessed to live at certain times. I always tell my kids that they're lucky to be living right now, as opposed to 100 years ago, and that is the perfect example of that.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, absolutely. He wasn't the only football player who had some success at the collegiate level. You had another president that had quite a career in college.

Chris Calizza
Yes, so I would say, you know, people always ask me when they find out you've written a book about sports and presidents. Well, who is the best athlete of all the presidents? That's one of the first questions people usually ask. And I always say the answer to that's pretty clear, and I think inarguable, and it's Gerald Ford. So Gerald Ford played offensive line and a little bit of defense at the University of Michigan. He was an All-American. When he graduated, he had offers from both the Bears and the Lions to play professionally; he turned those offers down to go to law school, which, by the way, talks about how things were different back then. It very rarely, I think, would you see a college athlete have an offer to play professional sports and turn it down to go to law school, at least immediately. But that's what Ford did. One thing that's really interesting about Ford is, without question, our best athlete as President; at the same time, he didn't like to talk about his athletic accomplishments during his political career because he was afraid of being categorized as just a dumb job. So Lyndon Johnson, President of the United States, often referred to Ford; when he referred to Ford, he said, oh, Gerald Ford, he got tackled one man too many times without a helmet on. So, he would play into the idea that Ford was just an athlete. And I think Ford really overcompensated in a lot of ways and didn't talk about his significant athletic achievements. I mean, without question, the most athletically accomplished President that we've ever had, Ford, and that is the reason that he wanted not to be typecast. He wanted to be more than just an all-American football player at the University of Michigan.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, that's definitely true. And you know, many people are aware that he played, but I don't think they realize how good he was and being the captain of that team.

Chris Calizza
I mean, he was, I always wonder, I mean, you know, these debates, I think, are fascinating, like, could Gerald Ford play on the University of Michigan offensive line now? No, probably not, given what his build was and what his stature was. But at the time, he was a standout.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, most definitely. Now, you know, staying on the football theme, I think maybe the biggest surprise to me by reading this book is, you know, Joe Biden in his football career. I never realized that you know, he had been successful as an athlete at the high school level, but maybe you could talk about it.

Chris Calizza
Yes. Absolutely. He goes to Archmere Academy, a private school in Delaware, and his senior year, he's a wide receiver, and his senior year, they're very, very good. They go undefeated. He goes, at least in part, to the University of Delaware to play football. His freshman year, and I think a lot of people who have either been kids or have kids can relate to this. During his freshman year, his grades were pretty poor. It's my freshman year of college. So, excuse me, his parents say, you're not playing football. But by the summer after his sophomore year, he's played spring football, and he's sort of set to be on the team the following year; what happens? Well, he goes on spring break that summer spring of his sophomore year, and he meets a woman named a girl at the time; she's 19, I think, named Nellie. Now, people who are familiar with Joe Biden's background will know that his first wife was Nellie. So he met his first wife on spring break, the summer of the spring of his sophomore year. So he's forced with a choice. She goes to Syracuse University. He wants to play football at the University of Delaware. If he plays football, he doesn't have his weekends free to go visit her. If he goes and visits her, he can't play football; he chooses her as a good choice. They got married. But yeah, Biden was a pretty good wideout from everything I could read about was written about him when he was in high school. He's actually a pretty good golfer, as well. He's not a bad overall athlete. He doesn't play nearly as much golf as Obama or Trump is, you know, his predecessors in office. But he is a pretty natural, good athlete. Overall, though, you know, at this point, we're talking about his age, you know, he's 80. We're probably not talking about Joe Biden going out and, you know, playing football anymore. But at one time, he was a pretty good athlete.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, that really, really surprised me. Now, another part of the book that I really loved was the aspect where you sort of sneak up and surprise me. I would get in the rhythm of the reading on it. And all of a sudden, there's a pop culture reference, you know, like a Ron Burgundy quote, or, you know, I try. It was great. It was very entertaining. And I love being kept up a little bit pertinent to the story. So, what was your strategy when you were writing the book? You want to have a little bit of that pop culture come in.

Chris Calizza
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's sort of how I write generally, you know, is I've always written, I've written mostly, I should say, for the internet my whole life, whether it's at CNN or the Washington Post, most of my stuff has appeared online first. And yeah, I wanted it; I think what I didn't want is for the book to feel like required reading, that it was something that, you know, well, I better read this book. I wanted people to be excited about reading it and have fun while they were reading it. So I tried to make the writing, the anecdotes, and the stories there as fun as possible. One thing that I was really lucky with with the book was that there was so much raw material. Honestly, I was surprised by this; not that much has been written about it. So, there have been books written about presidents in golf. Rick Riley wrote a famous book, Commander in Cheat, about Donald Trump, and he always cheats at golf. But there hasn't really been a broad look at the sports the presidents played, what they loved, and what it tells us about them. And so I was mining a lot of ground that hadn't really been mined before. So, it made for fun research and a fun writing process. And I hope it makes for a fun read.

Darin Hayes
Well, it most definitely does. Okay, now I shared with you what I found to be the most surprising element as a reader. What was the most surprising thing to you during your research that you wrote in a book?

Chris Calizza
Well, you know, I spent the last five years at CNN covering Donald Trump every single day, writing about him most days. I did not think that going into the book, the thing I would have been surprised to learn would be something about Donald Trump. I thought maybe it'd be about Eisenhower or Ford or, you know, someone from a time past when I was less familiar with it, but it wound up being Trump, and I'll tell you what it was. So, Donald Trump actually played sports in college. It wasn't baseball. It wasn't golf. It was squash. So he played squash for one year at Fordham. And I talked to his biographer, a guy named, well, a guy at the Washington Post who was wonderful and a former colleague of mine. He told me a great story about Trump as a squash player. And he essentially said Trump wasn't a great squash player, not because he wasn't athletic, but because he didn't have the patience to sort of pound out points. He would get frustrated and just wail the ball as hard as he could. And, you know, that often would lead to an error, and he would lose the point. One other fun story about Trump and squash. He didn't like to take the team bus to and from games. So he would drive his sports car with his friends from the team with it. Now, the coach gave him transportation money for that, but he also charged his friends tolls and gas. So he pocketed that money, too. On one trip, they had just lost at the Naval Academy in Maryland. On the way back, Trump pulls into a department store. I think it was a Montgomery Wards. This will date him a little bit, but generally, in the department store, he emerges from the department store with a brand-new set of golf clubs, teas, and balls. They proceed to drive to this bluff overlooking the Chesapeake Bay. He and his friends just blast ball after ball into the water until they get bored, leave the golf clubs by brand-new golf clubs by the side of the road, and drive off back to Fordham. So I felt that I just, I didn't know that about him. I love that anecdote, and Mark Fisher is sorry; it is the name of the Washington Post reporter whom I talked to about this. I love the idea of Trump not being patient enough to succeed at squash despite his athletic ability. I think it's an interesting metaphor for how he approached politics, too.

Darin Hayes
Uh, yeah, I think a lot of maybe some of his business dealings, too. He sort of has television programs, which seems to be part of his personality. So yeah, very, very interesting. Well, Chris, why don't we take this opportunity to give the listeners, let's once again, the name of the book and where folks may get a copy of it?

Chris Calizza
So it's called Power Players Sports Politics in the American Presidency. If you type Power Players, you should be able to find it. It is on Amazon. It is on Barnes and Noble. It's on bookshop .org. There's an audiobook that I read. So, if you like my voice, buy the audiobook because it's me reading it. It's on Kindle. You also can go to, in real life, brick-and-mortar stores, any brick-and-mortar store that sells books; it should be there by now. If not, ask for it, and it will be there within a few days.

Darin Hayes
Well, Chris, we really appreciate you coming on and sharing the stories from this book and, and sharing this book for the world to, you know, not only capture, uh, you know, sports history but capture American history and world history in the process. And I love the mix of all the elements: the entertainment of pop culture, the history of the presidents, and, of course, sports. So it was a great book, and I highly recommend it. Thank you, sir, for joining us today.

Chris Calizza
Thanks for the kind words. It was really fun to write. I hope it's as fun.

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Imagine getting all of your equipment at the beginning of the long football season. Shoulder pads, pants and pads, and of course a helmet. You look and the head piece looks a bit funny... it has no chinstrap. This is how it was in one era of football, and FootballArchaeology.com's Timothy Brown explains.

From Tim's original TidBit article: Football Helmets Without Chin Straps .

Timothy Brown, who runs the website footballarchaeology.org. The two discuss how early football helmets did not have chin straps. Instead, they had laces in the back to tighten around the noggin. These devices were not very effective in keeping the helmet on the player's head.

A company called Goldsmith, which was a major sporting goods manufacturer at the time, tried to fix this problem by creating a helmet with an adjustable back. However, this design did not work well and was soon abandoned.

In the 1970s, helmets with inflatable bladders were introduced. These helmets were more effective in conforming to the player's head, but they were still not as safe as today's helmets with chin straps.

The video concludes by mentioning that Timothy Brown's website, footballarchaeology.com, has more information about the history of football equipment.

-Full Transcript of the Episode on Helmets Without Chinstraps

Darin Hayes:
Welcome to Tuesday. Timothy P. Brown of FootballArchaeology.com is here to tell us a little bit about one of his recent tidbits. Uh, Tim, welcome back to the pig pen.

Timothy Brown:
Darin, thank you. Oh, it was a pleasure to be here and join you as we talk about old stuff, old football stuff.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, most definitely, you had a recent tidbit that really caught my eye when it came out. I actually reread it a few days ago because it's just so fascinating. It's called the football helmet without chin straps, And it's, you know, something kind of peculiar that when we think of the football helmet, the chin straps are almost like an automatic part Of it in our day and age, and so it's very interesting what you wrote about, and I'd love to hear about it here in the podcast.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah. Well, so, you know, it's one of those funny things. Yeah, sometimes I've wondered, you know, how the name came about, like chin strap? I mean, now, chin straps are covering the chin, right? And then they connect up to the helmet with the two points on either side, but back, you know, that's really a post-1940 kind of look. Before that, that headgear, the wrestling-type headgear, and then, after that, you know, what we think of as leather helmets. For a long time, the strap kind of went from the ears and then looped under the jaw, not over the chin. Right? So, but I think they, I think, I think chin straps originated, I believe, on military helmets, and you know, so a lot of times they had them in military hats. So a lot of times they had those little straps, like kind of on the chin, a little bit below the mouth, that kind of thing. That's probably where that where the term came from. But anyway, so, you know, they had those original straps that were kind of elastic or cloth, they weren't, and they could tighten them. But, you know, they certainly weren't as good about, you know, keeping the helmet on the head as today's, you know, two or four-point, you know, chin straps do. Plus, the helmets are just tighter. So, you know, if you've got a leather helmet, you know, it can only conform to the head so much, right? I mean, if it's a little bit bigger, you've got it, you know, just nobody's had it shaped the same way, or no two people's are shaped the same way. So, you know, there's probably some little extra space here, little extra space there, in any given leather helmet. And so, you know, they used to come off. And so, so Goldsmith was, which was, you know, one of the original manufacturers of baseballs. They started back in 1875, and they were a big sporting goods manufacturer, at least till 1940. That's the last catalog I have of theirs. So, I'm not sure exactly how much longer they lasted. But so Goldsmith was trying to fix this problem. How do we keep helmets on? Because these little chin straps don't always work. So what they did was they got rid of the chin strap, which seems kind of dumb. They could have kept him, but they tried to make the size of the helmet adjustable. So they did that by putting it together like a drawstring system at the back of the helmet. And if you think about it, like, you know, we've all seen movies of like a Victorian woman who's getting her corset, you know, adjusted where they're pulling those straps and they're, you know, making her stomach, you know, look or make it look like she's got an 18-inch waist, you know, that kind of thing. So I mean, they basically had a system like that, or at least functionally, that was what it was supposed to do supposed to tighten the base of the helmet around the head. And so, but, you know, the fact of the matter is, it didn't work very well.

Darin Hayes:
You probably needed help getting your helmet on and off every time, I would assume.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, you know, I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah, it could be that. Yeah, you had to, you know, so it's what's funny that you mentioned that it's like, you know, back at that time, players, the front of their football pants, also had those like leather patches, the thighs and well, probably typically twice on the thighs on each thigh. They basically had drawstrings to tighten the thigh or tighten the pants so that they didn't move all around, and then they'd get protected by the thigh pads or the pants. So, you know, they didn't have really good elastic back then. So it's a matter of, you know, pulling laces of one form or another to try to get things to fit. So, you know, somehow, you know, they tried to do that with the helmet. But, you know, it was they were gone from the catalogs in about a year or two. So it tells me the thing just didn't work. The concept made sense. And in fact, you know, in the 70s, when people started, like, I think it was, I believe it was right now that did it first, but you know, they had the bladder helmets, where you pump air into it, and it conforms to your head, whatever the shape of it may be, you know, so they were trying to do that same thing. They just didn't have the means to do it at the time. And so, you know, good idea, bad execution. And so then that just disappeared. But I, you know, I still haven't figured out why you would get rid of the chin strap. So, even if you have this other cool thing going on, why get rid of the chin strap? Because I've never read anything about people being bothered by it, you know, like the nose guards. Yeah, that was big, you know, everybody, nobody liked wearing the nose guard because they had difficulty breathing and that kind of stuff. But chin strap, you know,

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, I mean, it's a natural place to secure because you sort of got that hook shape under your chin. You know, it's a good anchor point to tie it down to your head and get a little tension on there. That's that's weird. Thank you.

Timothy Brown:
So sometimes, you know, some of the stories, I mean, again, I like the stories where, you know, as football evolved, there were all these dead-end paths, right? Just like in, you know, animal species, right? And, you know, so for some of them, the thinking behind the path made sense; they just didn't have the tools, technology, or the right materials to make it happen at the time.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, you, uh, very, very interesting story, but just you describing the back of that helmet and the core whole corset idea, it took me back to some time playing like a junior high ball, you know, we got sort of leftover pants and one year I had drawstring pants for football where you had to tie them up. Like you tie your shoe. What a pain in the ass that was every, every day for practice for game day. It just, especially when you're like, you know, 11, 12 years old, you know, you don't want to take your time to snap pants even, let alone, you know, sit on time and take them up and, and if you didn't tighten them up, then you had, you know, your, your jock and everything else was, you know, flopping, falling all over the place. And it was just a bad, bad design. Whoever designed those pants. I didn't enjoy those.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, well, and again, it's one of those things that, depending on your age, you may not have as much experience with. But, you know, back in the day, there were a lot of people on the football field with, you know, white athletic tape wrapped around their thighs or around their knees to keep things in place. Right. And so I, you know, I've spotted that kind of thing going on back to the 20s and 30s. So people, you know, even back then, they were tapping the same problem.

Darin Hayes:
Oh, I didn't. I never thought about that. Yeah, I guess I guess you wouldn't be able to do it, too. Then I'm always sitting, sort of thinking like athletic tape and duct tape. You know, the fabric tape is more of a modern invention, but I guess they would have had that back then.

Timothy Brown:
And they had, if you look at the old catalogs, I can't tell you it was the exact same kind of tape, but they had athletic tape and illustrations like Walter Camp, the football guides, they had illustrations of how to tape an ankle, that kind of stuff going back pretty far.

Darin Hayes:
So, yeah, very interesting. Thank God that they have the chin straps, but even with chin straps, and I don't know about you, but when I played early on, I don't even think I saw a four-point chin strap until maybe I was in high school or something, I think it was sort of a, you know, the late seventies type innovation, I think, or at least became popular at the levels I played at then. But you see so many people with the four-point head strap chin straps, and they still come, their helmets still come flying off, especially the NFL level and big-time big-time college; it's unbelievable that those can come off. Cause once you have those helmets on, if they're done rubbery, I mean, it's hard to unsnap them when you do want to take it off, let alone have it come flying off in the middle of the game.

Timothy Brown:
I hate to tell you this, but some of those guys are stronger than you and your buddies were.

Darin Hayes:
I realize I'm still a

Timothy Brown:
has a little bit more force. Yes.

Darin Hayes:
Still, that's a lot of stuff to pop a helmet on us. It's amazing, Tim. That is a great story and a great piece of football history that we, you know, seldom get to appreciate something like that and what the sort of forefathers of football had to go through to do that, and you talk a lot about this kind of items on your website football archaeology calm and want you to tell people a little bit about it and how they can enjoy footballarchaeology.com

Timothy Brown:
So it's footballarchaeology.com. It's a sub-stack website. So, if you're familiar with sub-stack, you can find me there. I also post on Twitter and on threads, but the site itself is a subscription site. If you subscribe for free, you get access now to about a third of the stuff, and with paid subscriptions, which are basically five bucks a month or $50 a year, you have full access to everything, including the archives. So, if that's what you're into, then subscribe away.

Darin Hayes:
Well, excellent job as always, Tim, and if folks, make sure you take advantage of what Tim's saying because there is really a plethora of information on football history. We get to talk a little bit about it, you know, each week, but Tim has so much more in there. I think, what did you say? Do you have over a thousand articles in there right now?

Timothy Brown:
Not quite a thousand, but it's getting close.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, wow. That's uh, you know, four digits there, guys. That's, uh, that's some good stuff to look at football history from different angles. So Tim, we really appreciate you coming on, and we would love to talk to you about more great football history next week. Thank you

Timothy Brown:
Pretty good; look forward to it. Thanks, Darin.

-Frequently Asked Questions

-Who was the first player to wear a football helmet? We have your answer in our in-depth study ofthe first to wear a helmet.

-What is the history of each college team and their helmet designs? Check out many of them with our series College Football helmet history of schools.

-How come some teams have player numbers on their helmets? We asked this question too and had a college football expert historian help divulge helmet numbers history.

-Why do some teams like Michigan and Delaware look so odd and similar? It's really uncanny isn't it that the Wolverines and Blue Hens look the same, check this out for a reason when helmets had wings.

-What do stickers on college football helmets mean? Some of them look really crazy but there is some goos reason for the extra adornments and we have the scoop Why all the stickers on some football helmets?.

---

They say necessity is the mother of invention, and in the world of football, that invention sometimes comes wrapped in a pigskin and launched downfield. Today, we delve into a groundbreaking moment – the first ever extra point conversion by forward pass in American football history.

This wasn't just another point attempt; it was a play that challenged the status quo and redefined the way points were scored. Join us on a podcast journey with Timothy Brown and article exploration as we dissect this pivotal moment. We'll meet the players and coaches who dared to defy convention, analyze the strategic thinking behind the play call, and explore the impact it had on the game's evolution.

Was it a stroke of genius or a desperate gamble? Did it spark a revolution in offensive strategy, or was it a one-off act of audacious improvisation? We'll uncover the story behind the throw, the roar of the crowd, and the lasting legacy of this innovative play that forever changed the way extra points were scored. So, buckle up, football fans, and get ready to revisit a moment where forward-thinking met football history!

Could this be the first instance of a converted extra-point attempt after a TD via a forward pass? Timothy P. Brown tells the play's story as the Washington & Jefferson Presidents played the Lafayette Leopards in 1921.

-Transcription of Extra Point via the Forward Pass with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And guess what? It's Tuesday again.

And we are here with Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com. And he has some great tidbits from some of his past writings that he's going to come on and chat a little bit about. Tonight, we're going to be talking about a very interesting one that came out in March. Tim Brown, welcome to The Pig Pen.

Darin, good to see you again and get a chance to chat about old-time football stuff. Always fun. Yeah, old time football.

There's nothing like it. And there's so much that we don't know about it that your tidbits really bring to light. And, you know, I learned so much from really enjoying them.

And you always have something that I'm going to take out of each one of those and, you know, store it in the old crock pot because it's something interesting from football yesteryear. And tonight is no exception. You really have an interesting one, sort of a development of the game that, in some cases, we still see today.

Yeah. You know, so this one's about the first. Extra point conversion by forward pass.

Right. And so, you know, there's a lot of stuff in football, and sometimes when I'm writing stuff, it's like, well, this was the first time this happened. OK, well, this is the first time we know it happened.

In a number of cases, you know, did it happen another time before that could be, you know, and especially earlier on, we get the more it's dependent on, you know, it happens when there was a reporter there when they wrote it in the newspaper. So, I just wrote fairly recently about the first crisscross or reverse in a football game. And that occurred in 1888 at Phillips Handover, the prep school, you know, in the east.

And but, you know, big time school, wealthy kids, wealthy alums got reported in Boston newspapers. And therefore, we know what happened. Did somebody else pull it off somewhere else beforehand? Could have been.

But, you know, the received wisdom is this is when it happened. So now, with the first extra point conversion by forward passes, the timing is a lot easier to figure out than when that first happened because until 1922, if you were going to convert the, you know, after scoring a touchdown, if you were going to do the goal after touchdown, you had to kick it there. You couldn't run it.

You couldn't pass it. So it had to be by kick. So we know that the first conversion bypass couldn't have occurred until 1922.

So then we get into, OK, well, when in 1922 did it happen? And so I at least don't have it. I mean, try as I might, I could search every newspaper archive and comb through every book that I own. I don't have a real effective way to try to find that first time. So, in this case, I'm relying on a newspaper report from 1954.

So a look back article saying, hey, here's what happened in 1922. But the cool thing was it wasn't a high-profile game. By two teams that you might not think of as high profile teams nowadays, but in 22, they were.

So it was a game, you know, kind of, you know, maybe the fourth week of the season, a game between Lafayette and Washington and Jefferson. So, you know, nowadays you go, OK, Lafayette and Washington and Jefferson. But at the time, Lafayette was riding a 17-game winning streak.

Washington and Jefferson was on a 17 point unbeaten streak. And I say unbeaten because they had tied California in the 1922 Rose Bowl or. Yeah, so.

So anyway. You know, they. You know, so really, two top teams are playing, and they're playing on the polo grounds.

So in until 1922, I guess, you know, you had to you had to kick it. Typically, people drop-kicked it, but they did the placement kick as well. So then in 22, you got the ball at the five-yard line.

You could kick it, you could drop kick it, you could snap it to a holder in place, kick it, you could run it, or you could pass it in for a touchdown or not for a touchdown, but for the conversion. But of course, you know, since it's starting from the five. The kick is probably your better option unless you don't have a good drop kicker, or you don't have a good place kicker, a good snapper, or a good holder.

Right. So, as it turned out, in this game, Lafayette went ahead 13 to nothing in the first half. And so, you know, Washington Jefferson's kind of chugging along a little bit.

But then in the third quarter, they score a touchdown and convert. So now it's 13 to seven in the fourth quarter. Lafayette, Washington Jefferson's quarterback, a guy named Brinkert.

He throws a touchdown pass. So now it's a 13-13 tie. And so the game depends on their ability to convert.

So he had the previous time they scored; he had drop-kicked it. The quarterback had drop-kicked for the extra point. So this time around, he sets up, you know, the team sets up just like he's going to dropkick again.

They snap it to him. And one of their ends, who are playing in tight as they typically did, then, you know, scoot out into the end zone all alone, and he tosses him the P, and they convert the extra point bypass. So again, we think that's the first conversion by a forward pass.

And they, you know, they ended up winning the game. That was that was the last score of the game. And so all the.

You know, all the other W and J fans leave happily in the Lafayette fans are disappointed. So what? So I have a trivia question for you. But if about what's well about Washington Jefferson.

But I'm going to set that aside to see if you want to cover it. If you have questions about the game or anything like that, we need to discuss. Well, I guess one of the questions is not particularly about the forward pass, but it's right about that time, as you share in your story, and you just mentioned it is one of the ways was the kick for the extra point similar to what we know today. Maybe the scoring was a little bit different.

Now, where's how was I'm interested in how the holder may have been because I know on free kicks, the holder was lying flat on their stomach, which I'm not exactly sure why, why they laid on their stomach to do that. You know, we said that we have holders today for free kicks on a windy day when, in the NFL, you have a holder on the ball. But I was just wondering, would did they take a snap from their stomach while the holder was on a stomach for those kicks? Or is it more similar on a knee like we do today? Yeah, I think I've seen different versions of that.

Initially, they may have tried to do the thing on the stomach. So, you know, the reason they did it on the stomach was on the free kick. The defense had to be 10 yards back of the ball.

And so as soon as as soon as the holder or they used to call him a placer, but as soon as the holder set the ball on the ground or as soon as the ball touched the ground, the defense could rush. So what they what the holder would do is lay prone. You know, you basically run on it.

You'd lay on his stomach and perpendicular to the path of the kicker. Right. Then he put one hand under the ball and one hand over the ball, balanced it, and held it right close to the ground.

And then, when the kicker was ready, he pulled the underhand out. And then, you know, so the ball was sitting on the ground, held by his upper hand. And then the kicker would come through, you know, follow the path and kick it.

So, you know, I think. You know exactly why it developed that way. It's kind of hard to know, but it does make sense.

You know, I mean, in a nun or in a free-kick situation, that particular method of holding makes sense. Now, once you introduce the snap. So, the snap to the holder originated in 1896.

And, you know, it's just one of those nobody thought about it before. So two brothers who, you know, played at Otterbein in Ohio developed it and then it spread quickly. But they but still most people still drop kicked anyways, because that's what, you know, the guys were trained to do.

So in those situations, I mean, early on, I believe mostly what they did was you know, the football was still transitioning from rolling the ball on its side. There was still some of that or tumbling it back rather than really kind of a long snap like we think of it today. So they a lot of times a holder would kind of squat like a catcher in baseball.

And, you know, so you could move a little bit to grab the ball and then set it down. And then they started switching to, you know, what we think of today as a holder. I don't know what you call that position, you know, one knee on the ground or one knee.

Raised, but, you know, I've got pictures of even into the late 30s. I believe it is. I've got a picture of an Arizona player still doing it.

The squatter, you know, the squatting catcher's way. So it probably depended on how accurate your long snapper was, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, you know, it's one of those that, you know, when we think of the snapping position or the holder's position, that's the only way that makes sense.

But, you know, they tried different things along the way. But the catcher's position definitely makes a lot of sense. You know, adopting it from baseball, you know, you have a wild pitch, which is much like a snap.

You don't know where it's going to go sometimes. And they can maneuver a little bit. And probably they probably had a guy that played catcher on the baseball team, maybe as a holder to he's familiar from maneuvering that.

So that makes a good sense. So, all right. Well, thank you for that.

That's a good explanation. So, OK, what do you get for your trivia question? OK, so this may be one of my favorite trivia questions, but, you know, we've talked enough that maybe this is an obvious answer to you, but maybe not so much for your audience. So, you probably should allow the audience a little bit of time to figure it out.

OK, so the question is, there are four teams that do not currently play. FBS football has played in the Rose Bowl game. What are those four teams that are not currently in the FBS and played in a Rose Bowl game? Yeah.

OK, folks, before I answer, if you want to hit pause and answer it yourself, and I'm going to proceed to answer. I think I mentioned one of them earlier in the podcast. OK, well, let me let me say, does it does it count military teams? Are you counting military teams in that? Yes, I am.

OK. All right. Well, after spending almost 50 days of Rose Bowl coverage just a few months ago, I hope I get this right.

So, I think the Great Lakes team, I'm going to say Washington and Jefferson because we're talking about them tonight. That's two.

Let's see. Was it Columbia? No, no, Cornell, the other Ivy League. No, neither one of them ever played.

Well, Cornell or Columbia played in the 34. Yeah, Columbia. I must say, but it's not them.

No. OK, Harvard, because they're not FBS. No.

OK, I'm trying to think about who the other military team that played in the World War One era was. Well, actually. OK, so I asked the question, which should be, are you currently not playing Division One because there are teams like Harvard and Columbia?

OK. All right. OK.

FCS. Yeah. OK.

OK. Not a problem. No problem.

All right. OK, so they're so they're they're not playing in Division One football at all. So.

All right. So, OK, so you said Great Lakes, W and W and J, W and J. I'm trying to think of the military team from California that the one starts with an M. I took my tongue out. I'm not it's like Miramont or something.

And it's not. Yeah. So Mare Island, Mare Island, that's what they played twice.

They played in 18 and 19. And then. Another military team.

Great Lakes, I'm stumped on the last one; I'm stumped on the last military team. Great Lakes and Mare Island played in the 1919 game, and Mare Island and Camp Lewis played. OK, in the 18 game.

Camp Lewis is sometimes referred to as the 91st Division because that's where that Division was stationed. OK, you took away my easy bunnies with the Ivy League schools. I thought I had.

Yeah, I screwed up with the way I asked the question. So, I apologize. And to all the listeners that are scouring their brains trying to figure out the answer.

So it should have been like FBS or FCS schools. Yeah, or just D1. So normally, you know, there are some people when I ask this question, who either just draw a blank, or they might know there are these military teams.

But hardly anybody knows about Washington Jefferson. They're typically the toughest ones. The only reason I know about Washington Jefferson is because I'm in the process of doing a lot of research on a book that has a lot of W and J players in it.

However, from the late 1890s and early 1900s, they played with W and J. But I have a couple of books on W and J football. It's kind of still fresh in my mind. So, I know you're a PA guy.

That's right. They're the Western PA team. So, for the South Southern team from us, I think you can be a Western PA, and we're the first Norse.

But hey, that's true. Hey, great question, though. I really like the fact that it was a good one.

So, Tim, your tidbits are, you know, bringing up items like this constantly every single day, sometimes a couple of times a day. Why don't you share with the listeners how they, too, can share in on all the fun of hearing these? Yeah, so, you know, best way is just to go to my website, footballarchaeology.com, subscribe. And that by doing that, you'll you'll get an email every night at like seven o'clock.

I may actually push that a little bit later. But anyways, we'll get an email that with, you know, with the story for that that evening. And, you know, if you if you don't want the emails, then just you can follow me on Twitter, though, that's becoming less and less useful as the days go on.

I even did a blue checkmark, which, you know, I normally wouldn't have done. But, you know, that doesn't seem to help. I did the same and had mixed results myself, but we'll see how it goes.

So. All right, Tim, I appreciate it. And we'll talk to you again next week with some more great football history.

Hey, thank you, sir. I appreciate it and look forward to it.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Players can tell you that the surface condition of the turf they play on can make all the difference in a game and how they perform. Field conditions are affected by weather, surface, slickness, and even lawn care.

Long before the modern surfaces and machines we see football played on today, grass fields were the only surface that mattered. Have you ever considered how these playing fields were cared for and kept? Our man Timothy P. Brown of Football Archaeology has, and may we hear what he found out.

This discussion originates based on Time's Tidbit post titled: The Wretched Field Conditions of Football's Past - In Pictures.

-Transcription of Football Field Grass Cuts with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to another evening where we get to discuss some football archaeology with the founder of that website, Timothy P. Brown. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Darin, thank you for chatting tonight, as we seem to do every week, every Tuesday. So yeah, looking forward to it. Yeah, I feel very blessed and honored to be able to talk to you every Tuesday and get this information that you share with us.

Just a few months ago, you had a very interesting topic on one of your tidbits about the field maintenance of the grass that was played on. There was no artificial turf; it was all natural grass, and we're very interested to know how they manicured their fields. Well, yeah, so I actually had an earlier one.

I think I probably have a link to it in this particular tidbit but about the terrible field conditions of the past. And so now we've got artificial turf, we've got prescription grass, and most fields have good drainage and watering systems as needed. And there's just other ways.

The fields are so well-maintained. Back in the day, especially in some stadiums that used to get really heavy use, if you just had one game or one weekend where it was rainy, the rest of the season, the whole central portion of the field was just mud or dirt. It just got torn up.

There's no way to avoid it. And that's one of the great benefits of artificial turf, which is that the central part of the field doesn't wear out, so it's between the hash marks. But back in the day, it sure did.

And so that's kind of a lost element of the game, or of the experience, both as fans and especially as players. But so I'm always looking at old yearbooks and other photo sources. And so back in the day, there were certain things going on in the field that you just noticed, and they were just like, what the hell are they doing there? And so obviously, the muddy fields that I just mentioned.

One of the ways that they try to maintain or dry out muddy fields is by tossing sawdust all over the field. And so I've got images, Yale Field, where there's sawdust all over the field. I'm just trying to draw it out or dry it out, I should say. And then they'd sometimes put hay on the field prior to the game, like if it was going to be icy, and then they'd rake it all off, so all kinds of crazy stuff.

So then once that dirt got all, well, once the field became dirt rather than grass, then you see in early pictures where they raked, you see all these lines in the dirt, and it's just because they raked, just to get all the clumps out and all that kind of stuff. And then, when it dried, the whole field was just dusty. So again, I've got a bunch of pictures of guys just stepping on the field, running around, and there are dust clouds falling; they all look like pig pens from the Charlie Brown cartoon.

But the other one that you see from time to time is long grass, which is, you don't see it as much, but there are times where it's like, I've got pictures of placekickers trying to kick off the grass, and it's like, the grass is literally like 12 inches tall. And so it's like, how the heck did they maintain the grass? Then I looked into that. And so initially, I'd have to make sure I pronounce this correctly, but I was asking, how did they keep football fields, baseball fields, parks, and lawns trimmed back in the day? And so the one way that they did it was with a scythe, which is like the Grim Reaper, with that pole.

A sickle type. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

And so, you know, so they had people up there, you know, cutting it that way. But then, you know, by like 1830, somebody came up with a mechanical lawnmower that pretty much, you know, looks like a real, and I mean real meaning R-E-E-L, so real mower that's used today, but obviously very clunky looking. And then, you know, they also had, you know, so there were the hand-pushed versions, and then there were the horse-pulled versions of these real mowers.

But from time to time, they also reverted back to more traditional methods, which was to bring in a flock of sheep, and you'd just put the sheep out there on your football field or your baseball field and let, you know, let them at it. And then you may have some new obstacles to try to avoid while you're playing. Well, you know, and that would make the grass grow.

So, yeah, and so... Nothing like a good turd tackle, that's for sure. Yeah. One of my brothers has a place up in California where, you know, it's basically a winery where the fields were so wet, or everything was so wet because of all the rain they had.

They brought in a bunch of sheep and just let the sheep go up and down between the rows, you know, eat back the grass. But, yeah, so, I mean, so you think about that, and it was even, you know, so for sure, I've got pictures, you know, it included a picture from like 1943 of sheep grazing in the Rose Bowl, trying to keep it back. And so, even like in the 40s, especially, you know, with gas rationing because of the war, you know, we saw a return to sheep grazing on athletic fields just to, you know, to try to keep it trimmed.

But, you know, I mean, there were like New Mexico, Loyola Marymount, places like that also, you know, I've got newspaper articles anyways indicating, you know, in the late 30s, early 40s that they were trimming their grass the old-fashioned way. Hey, just to put a comment, you know, the images that you have, and we have links to them in the show notes here, folks, and on Pigskin Dispatch from the accompanying article for Tim's images. In the image of the sheep on the Rose Bowl field, I think they got the black sheep of every family in that photo because I think there are two that look like they might be lighter color; all the rest are very colored sheep.

So, a lot of black sheep in that family. Well, there was; it may have been the breed because the article mentioned the breed, which, you know, I don't know one. I don't know my sheep breeds; I apologize.

But, so it may be that that was just a function of. Well, luckily for you, we just want to know about your football. We don't need your agricultural knowledge.

I'm not really good at the agricultural side. Now, that same image, the herdsman or the farmer that's caring for these sheep, he must be a pretty popular guy because it looks like he has like a five-gallon bucket of, I'm assuming, water for these dozen or so sheep to all drink out of. So, I'm sure they're very popular guy in the water.

So, I mean, the other thing, he could have had some grain in there. Then, tossing grain into different areas would attract the sheep to mow the whole field. Oh, okay.

Gotcha. I mean, again, I'm guessing this only because I saw a YouTube video of some guy in New Zealand who created a picture of a heart in his field, let the sheep in, you know, he spread grain in the shape of a heart, let the sheep out and they all went, and then sheep formed a heart. So, it is quite an art form to get your sheep to manicure your lawn.

That's right. All right. Well, hey, I'm even more glad this week, and I have to cut the grass with the modern conveniences we have today.

I'm not out there with a bucket throwing grain on my grass with a herd of sheep. So, although we do like those days, those were the days. All right.

I had a little, much harder time in many ways. So, we appreciate those pioneers of early football who took care of the yards that we played in and helped us advance to where we are today. And Tim, you have some very interesting, fascinating pieces of football that even go beyond the game and equipment like this, you know, caring for the field, which is, you know, you have to have a field to play on.

So, it's, you know, it has to be that. And I know one point I was going to bring up, too, is a really interesting study I saw just came out within the last week or so from, I believe, the National Football League on injuries compared on natural grass fields that are played in the league versus the artificial fields. There was a higher injury rate, as this study showed in the 2022 season, where people on artificial fields were injured more often, or more injuries occurred than they did on the grass fields.

And I don't know if you saw that, but it's kind of interesting to go back to old school, possibly. Yeah, I didn't see that. And, you know, I mean, obviously, when artificial turf first came out, it gripped so well that, you know, guys just blew out their knees all the time on that.

And it was like playing on concrete, you know, I mean, I mostly played on natural, you know, I played on one or two artificial turf fields that were fairly early in the development, and it was, you know, it was horrible. But anyways, yeah, I'm actually a little bit surprised by that result, you know, just because, you know, my sense is that the artificial surfaces have come so far. But, you know, there's a certain amount of, you know, there's kind of no going back on some of it, you know, if you're in a dome stadium, you're going to play on artificial turf, right? And then it's, you know, it's one thing to be on turf, you know, it takes, it just takes a lot of money from an ongoing maintenance standpoint to have a really well done natural turf, you know, so if you're the Packers or something like that, okay, you can afford it.

A lot of other places, it's just, you know, so I mean, anyone in the NFL can afford to do it if that's the right thing, right? Yeah, I know at Akershire Stadium, the old Heinz Field in Pittsburgh, they replaced the turf, I think, two or three times during the NFL season. Of course, the Pitt Panthers are playing on that. They have high school games, usually on Thanksgiving weekend.

They have four championship games or five or six now. I think they have levels playing on that field. So it gets tore up that time of year and they, they replace it within a couple of days before the NFL game.

And that's why you see so many famous games played at Pittsburgh stadium where chunks of the field are coming up, or they had a rainy Monday night game in Miami 20 some years ago, where the punter kicked the ball, and it came down point first and stuck right in the middle of the field and some things. Well, you know, that, that actually raises a point. You know, I don't know if the study was able to control for that, but you know, how long was the turf installed? You know, at the time an injury occurred, because, you know, turf that's been in there for months is different than turf that was installed last Monday.

Right. Yeah. I think it's; they just took an aggregate of the 17 games or, I guess, eight and a half games on average on each field and looked around to see how many state injuries happened at that field by the opponents, you know, both teams playing on it.

So I think that's how they studied it. And you know, it's got some, some, you can sling some arrows at it and shoot some holes in it, but it's an interesting study. And one, I know the NFL takes player safety seriously, as they do with most items.

I am so anxious to see where that leads us. Yeah. Interesting stuff.

Tim, your tidbits are, you know, bringing up items like this constantly every single day, sometimes a couple of times a day. Why don't you share with the listeners how they too can share in on all the fun of hearing these? Yeah. So, you know, best way is just to go to my website, footballarchaeology.com, subscribe.

And that by doing that, you'll, you'll get an email every night at like seven o'clock. I may actually push that a little bit later, but anyways, we'll get an email that with, you know, with the story for that, that evening. And, you know, if you, if you don't want the emails, then just, you can follow me on Twitter.

Yeah. So great subject. We really enjoyed having you share your knowledge with us, Tim, and appreciate you.

And we will talk to you again next week. Very good, sir. Look forward to it.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Rekindle the memories of the historic moment when New York secured its FIRST-ever NFL championship! Join us as we relive the excitement and glory of this monumental achievement in American football. From the thrilling plays to the jubilant celebrations, this video captures the essence of New York's unforgettable journey to becoming champions. Take advantage of this epic tale of triumph and perseverance! Stay tuned for all the highlights and behind-the-scenes moments from the first New York NFL championship.

The 1927 season is a defining moment in the New York Giants' rich history. Fresh off a winning, topsy-turvy first few seasons, the Giants, under the leadership of newly hired Head Coach Earl Potteiger, embarked on a campaign of dominance that cemented their place as a rising power in professional football. This edition explores the key factors that fueled the Giants' success in 1927, highlighting their exceptional play, strategic innovation, and the emergence of a true star running back.

Backdrop of the 1927 NFL

As we learned from past episodes of this series, the 1926 professional football season was a wild ride. Red Grange and C. C. Pyles's original American Football League had gone by the previous year's end. The death toll of the AFL was that group's champion, the Philadelphia Quakers, getting beaten fairly badly in an exhibition game by a somewhat pedestrian NFL team from 1926, the New York Giants.

Right before the 1927 season, the League eliminated the financially weaker, generally smaller-market teams. The results were quite evident when you look at the NFL standings 1926 versus those of 1927, when the franchise listing went from 22 to 12 teams. The National Football League absorbed many players and a defunct American Football League franchise. That team is Grange's New York Yankees.

The consolidation of NFL teams following 1926 indirectly aided the New York Giants. The Brooklyn Horsemen folded, but Tim Mara (Giants owner) strategically kept their charter active. This charter became a valuable bargaining chip when another team, the Brooklyn Horsemen (operated by Bill Carr), sought entry into the League. This time, Mara and partner J. Wellington Mara (no relation) held the upper hand.

Mara offered a solution: lease the Brooklyn Horsemen charter to Carr, allowing him to bring star player Red Grange back to the NFL under a new name – the "New York Football Yankees." However, to prevent competition with the Giants, the Yankees faced restrictions. They would primarily play on the road, with only a few home games strategically scheduled to avoid clashing with the Giants' home schedule. The season would culminate in a particular "City Championship" series, with the Giants and Yankees battling it out in a home-and-home format. C.C. Pyle had wanted all along.

This arrangement benefited all parties involved. Mara eliminated a potential rival while ensuring a lucrative rivalry with the Yankees. Carr got his team back in the NFL, and fans were treated to the return of Red Grange. The restricted schedule ensured the Yankees wouldn't overshadow the Giants, and the City Championship series added a unique twist to the season's finale.

With this resolution, Mara and Dr. Harry March could now focus on building their Giants' roster with talent that would compete with the rest of the NFL's best.

A Well-Oiled Machine: Balanced Offense and Stifling Defense

March's strategy was to solidify the trenches with veteran players to dominate the line of scrimmage. Center Mickey Murtagh was signed on to return to the lineup once again, and stars like Al Nesser of the famous Columbus, Ohio football family were added along with Hec Harvey and returning talent Doc Alexander, who served as a more than adequate backup. Steve Owen was another returning lineman from the previous season to further anchor stability and dominance up front.

On the ends of the line, the Giants were equally challenging. Chuck Corgan, Owen's teammate on the former Kansas City Cowboys traveling team, was on one side. At the same time, a rookie sensation in future Hall of Famer Cal Hubbard combated the opposition on the other flank. These terminals were as big as the interior, and they often bullied the point of attack from the outside, opening gaping holes for the talented backfield.

The hallmark of the 1927 Giants was their remarkable balance on both sides of the ball. Offensively, the team wasn't independent of a single player. The Giants boasted a diverse attack, keeping opposing defenses guessing with running plays and short passes.

Fullback Jack McBride emerged as the offensive leader, showcasing his versatility with rushing touchdowns, field goals, and extra points.

The amazing tailback Hinkey Haines was the lightning to McBride's thunder, creating a formidable tandem in the New York backfield. Blocking in front of them was Mule Wilson, a former Texas A&M gridiron and track star signed for '27 after playing for the now-disbanded Buffalo Rangers in the prior year. Wilson was a willing blocker, and his speed and athleticism allowed him to get out ahead of his talented backfield mates to provide more than ample interference for any defenders that had escaped the guys on the front line.

However, the Giants' defense truly set them apart. They led the League in both yards allowed and points conceded, showcasing a suffocating unit that shut down opposing offenses. Their defensive prowess was a testament to their relentless pursuit and disciplined tackling.

A Coaching Mastermind and Strategic Innovation

Head coach Earl Potteiger played a pivotal role in the Giants' success. He emphasized a team-first mentality, fostering a strong work ethic and a dedication to execution. Potteiger's innovative approach included the "shift," a pre-snap formation that confused opposing defenses and created running lanes for his backs. This strategic wrinkle kept opponents on their heels and contributed significantly to the Giants' offensive efficiency.

The Rise of a Star: Jack McBride Leads the Way

While the Giants thrived on a collective effort, running back Jack McBride emerged as an actual offensive weapon. He led the team in scoring, showcasing his power rushing and ability to catch passes out of the backfield. McBride's versatility and consistent play were instrumental in the Giants' offensive success. His leadership and on-field presence solidified his place as a critical building block for the burgeoning Giants dynasty.

A Championship Near Miss and a Legacy of Excellence

The 1927 Giants' season wasn't without its challenges. The fewer teams in the League had also increased the talent levels of many other franchises in the previously watered-down star-quality rosters.

The 1927 campaign started with a challenging road game against the Providence Steam Roller at the Cyclodrome. New York was the more dominant team throughout the contest. Still, the Providence eleven would not give in easily, as evidenced by a lost scoring opportunity in the early part of the contest when the Giants had the ball on the one-foot line but were denied entrance to the endzone. The only TD of the game would come on a McBride plunge over the goal line in the second quarter. The New York squad would add a safety later that period and then hold onto an 8-0 victory over their hosts.

The following week, on October 2, the Giants traveled to Cleveland and faced the Bulldogs with their new weapon, Benny Friedman. The defenses of both sides prevailed in what would end up a scoreless draw. A rematch would follow in two weeks after the Giants were road warriors again, this time traveling to Pottsville, where they dismantled the Maroons 19-0 on great runs by Jack McBride and a scoop and score by reserve Doc Alexander.

Their only loss and sole tie came the next game against the Cleveland Bulldogs, a testament to the competitive nature of the young NFL. After battling for two more periods of scoreless football, the drought was broken in the third quarter when Cleveland's Jinx Simmons found a gap in the New York front and took the leather over the goal line for the game's only score and a 6-0 Bulldog victory. This inability of the Giants to overcome Friedman and the company would motivate Tim Mara to join that team in the offseason after they morphed into the Detroit Wolverines.

The loss awoke the Giants for the rest of the season as they dominated the rest of their opposition, reeling on nine consecutive wins for the rest of their schedule. These games included two blankings of the tough Frankford Yellow Jackets in a Home-and-Home series (13-0 & 27-0), a rematch with Pottsville (16-0), blanking Ernie Nevers and the Duluth Eskimos 21-0, Providence 25-0, taking out both Chicago teams (Cardinal s 28-7 & Bears 13-7), before closing out the season against cross-town rivals the New York Yankees 13-0 and 14-0.

In this era of NFL titles based on overall league records, the Giants outpaced the 7-2-1 Green Bay Packers and the 7-3 Chicago Bears to be declared the NFL Champs of 1927 at League meetings after the season ended. This would be the first championship for the franchise in just their third year of existence.

The 1927 season it marked a turning point for the New York Giants. It showcased their potential as a powerhouse in the NFL and laid the groundwork for future success. The team's dedication to balance, strategic innovation, and the emergence of a star running back all contributed to their dominant season. The 1927 Giants established a winning culture and a legacy of excellence that inspires generations of New York Football Giants fans.

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The Akron Zips football program has a rich history dating back to 1891. Here are some of the top things to know about the program:

The Zips football program was established in 1891, making it one of the oldest in college football.
Initially playing as Buchtel College, the team adopted the "Zips" nickname in 1950.
The Zips started in Division 1AA (now FCS) but moved to Division 1A (now FBS) in 1987.

The Zips have participated in various conferences throughout their history, including:
Ohio Athletic Conference (1915-1936, 1946-1965)
Mid-Continent Conference (1978-1979)
Ohio Valley Conference (1980-1987)
Mid-American Conference (MAC) since 1992

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Born May 6, 1957 - Fairview Park, Ohio - Tom Cousineau the Ohio State Buckeye linebacker from 1975 to 1978 was born into the world. The NFF says that Tom was credited with 569 career tackles which are second all-time in Ohio State history.

At the time of this writing Tom still holds six school records, setting marks for single-season tackles and solo tackles during his senior campaign. When Cousineau left Ohio State he was the school’s leader in nearly every tackling category! His coach was the legendary Woody Hayes who saw his stud linebacker become a two-time consensus First Team All-American for the Buckeyes.

Tom Cousineau received the great honor of being selected for inclusion into the College Football Hall of Fame in 2016. Cousineau was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1979 NFL Draft by the Buffalo Bills, but he chose to play for Montreal of the Canadian Football League from 1979-82, earning the league’s Grey Cup MVP honor in 1979. He would later return to the NFL, playing for the Cleveland Browns from 1982-85 and the San Francisco 49ers from 1986-87.

Being inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame is a mark of unparalleled prestige and accomplishment. It signifies that a player has not only excelled on the field but has also left a lasting legacy that transcends generations. This honor is reserved for those who have demonstrated exceptional skill, leadership, and impact in collegiate football, shaping the sport’s history and inspiring future players. Remembering these inductees is not just a tribute to their remarkable careers but also a celebration of their enduring influence on the game. Their stories and achievements serve as a beacon of excellence and a testament to the profound role they’ve played in elevating college football to new heights.

Forget the interceptions and the accolades. In the annals of NFL history, few defensive players inspire more respect than Larry Wilson. Nicknamed "The Enforcer," Wilson wasn't a flashy pick-six machine, but a tenacious tackler, a shutdown corner, and the ultimate leader who struck fear into the hearts of opposing offenses for 13 seasons.

This isn't your typical football hero story. Buckle up and discover why Larry Wilson's quiet dominance deserves a place in your gridiron knowledge vault.

No Stats, All Business Drafted by the St. Louis Cardinals (now Arizona Cardinals) in 1960, Wilson wasn't a top prospect. But his relentless pursuit of excellence on the field spoke volumes. He wasn't about flashy stats; his focus was on shutting down the other team's best receivers, disrupting plays, and delivering bone-crushing tackles. The result? Eight Pro Bowls, five All-Pro selections, and a reputation as the league's most feared safety.

Leadership by Example Wilson wasn't just a shutdown defender; he was a vocal leader and a mentor to younger players. He led by example, with his dedication to film study, relentless work ethic, and an unwavering commitment to winning. His quiet intensity inspired his teammates and instilled fear in opponents.

Championship Heartbreak (Almost) Despite his individual brilliance, Wilson's Cardinals teams never reached the Super Bowl. The closest they came was the 1964 Playoff Bowl, a postseason game for third place. However, Wilson's impact resonated far beyond wins and losses. He redefined the role of the safety, showcasing the importance of tackling, coverage skills, and leadership in the secondary.

The records and stats of the Akron Zips football program are housed and presented quite well on the College Football Reference site.

Sports-Reference is your one-stop shop for college football history and stats. Dive into team and player records, explore past seasons, track rankings, and relive iconic games. Find Heisman winners, conference champs, and all-time leaders. From scores and schedules to rosters and recruiting, delve into the numbers that tell the story of college football's past, present, and future. So, whether you're a die-hard fan or a casual enthusiast, Sports-Reference serves as your ultimate college football knowledge base.

Check out previous seasons, biggest games, origins, logo design, and players for Akron and their accomplishments in the MAC Conference and beyond.

Here is a transcript of a conversation Darin had with Dr. Randall Balmer and his book Passion Plays which unveils the history of the influence of religion on football and the other North American Sports.

Darin Hayes
Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. We had a very interesting discussion that I think will commence here. We have a gentleman writing a book on a topic I don't think we've ever had here in the Pigpen: football history. His name is Dr. Randall Balmer, and he has written a book called Passion Plays. It's got a very interesting subject and a very interesting theme. I think we'll bring him in right now. Dr. Randall Balmer, welcome to the Pigpen.

Dr. Randall Balmer
Thank you, Darin. I'm happy to be here.

Darin Hayes
Well, we are sure glad to have you here, sir. Before we get into the subject of your book and its title, maybe you could tell us a little about yourself and your background, especially regarding football history.

Dr. Randall Balmer
Okay, well, I grew up as a kid loving sports, trying to play sports, and not doing all that well, I suppose, but I did my best. And so I'm a sports fan; I wouldn't say I'm one of those diehard fans I keep hearing about, but I follow it fairly regularly. And I have my sports allegiances and so forth. And that was part of my background. The immediate catalyst for this book was discovering talk radio sports talk radio in the early 1990s. I taught at Columbia University in New York when W NBC transitioned to W F A N and became a sports talk station. And I was just riveted. I was just fascinated that these hosts could sustain conversations and debates for hours and hours over whether or not Joe Torrey should have lifted the starting picture with two outs in the bottom of the sixth inning. And I became hooked. I loved it. The book attempts to understand why Americans have a peculiar passion for sports. I'm aware that there are sports fans elsewhere in the world, especially when the World Cup runs, comes around, and so forth. But it seems to me that we Americans are unusually dedicated to sports. And I wanted to try to understand why that is.

Darin Hayes
Well, that is a lot of truth to that. I can just raise my hand right now and say, you know, I'm, uh, I'm guilty of, of that pleasure. And, uh, you know, of course, having a podcast, you're talking about sports daily. And it is very addictive to listen to or to talk it, or just, even if you're not on the radio, just to have, have, uh, some of your friends or cohorts that you're sitting around, uh, at work or on a cup of coffee, just talking, and the subject always comes up about the latest game where some sports topic. And it's very intriguing to get into this and talk about that. First of all, I guess before we get going here, uh, maybe you could again tell us the full title of your book and where maybe people could purchase it, and we'll talk about it again at the end of the program as well.

Dr. Randall Balmer
Sure, the book is Passion Plays, How Religion Shaped Sports in North America. And it's available, I guess, wherever books are sold. Bookshop .org is a good place to buy books because it supports local booksellers, but also a local bookseller's storefront brick-and-mortar store is a good place. Amazon, of course, has it, as does Barnes and Noble, so it's widely available.

Darin Hayes
Okay, well, let's get into the topic of your book. I guess you sort of gave us your background, and I'm assuming that's probably some of the gist of why it motivated you to write this book as well.

Dr. Randall Balmer
That's right. Yes, in a way, I want to try to understand myself. Why was I so passionate about some of these sports, even though I'm maybe not quite as passionate as those who call into these programs all the time? But yes, I'm fascinated by the fact that in my field, actually my academic field, I probably should say that as well. My academic field is American religious history. So, I have studied religion in North America for a long time. What's distinctive about religion in North America is that historically, we Americans have been off the charts in terms of religious devotion and religious adherence. And I think that's begun to change. I'm one; the polling data suggests that it has begun to change over the last couple of decades. That is, religious devotion adherence and affiliation have been going down over the last several decades. And there are a lot of reasons for that. But at the same time, I think that passion for sports and devotion to sports has been rising. And I think there's probably a correlation between the two.

Darin Hayes
Well, that, you know, you've caught my ear, especially with the title. And I, when I saw this a few weeks back and, you know, cause I'm, I'm a man of faith, and I'm passionate about my faith, but I'm also passionate about my sports. So you have my, my world's colliding two things that I've always sort of considered separate and, you know, don't, don't, uh, cross the streams, uh, you hear to say, but, uh, you know that you are sort of bringing those worlds together and we're very interested in hearing how, how those two merge.

Dr. Randall Balmer
Yeah, what happens? First, I will focus on North America's four major team sports: baseball, football, hockey, and basketball. All four of those sports developed, for the most part, roughly from the middle of the 19th century to the middle of the 20th century. By the middle of the 20th century, those sports had more or less assumed their current form. However, as these sports developed in the 19th century, they developed against the background of the Industrial Revolution. And what's happening in America, North America, more generally, is that men, in particular, are beginning to work outside the home and the farm. They're no longer engaging in subsistence living. They're beginning to work in factories, textile mills, etc. Many of them also work in sedentary office jobs. So, there's a great deal of concern in the Anglo-American world, both in North America and Britain, that men are becoming too passive. That is, they're becoming, they're not getting outside enough. They're not engaging in athletics. They're becoming weak and even "sisified." And several religious leaders are noticing that. And they, very cleverly, I think, try to combine religion, Protestantism, with athleticism. They came up with a movement known to historians as muscular Christianity. That is to say that we want to appeal to men to be athletes, virile, and in the churches. One of the complaints is that the women have been in charge of the church work for a long time. And we must find a way to lure men back to the faith and the churches. Part of the strategy for doing that was to combine religion with sports or athletic endeavors. Probably the best example of that institutionally would be the YMCA, the Young Men's Christian Association, which provided both religion and YMCA were quite religious. They're not less so today, but in the beginning, that was at the core of the YMCA, to combine religion with recreation. For example, it's no accident that basketball was invented by a Presbyterian minister at the YMCA training school in Springfield, Massachusetts, today, of course, Springfield College. His instructor charged him with inventing a game that would occupy young men between baseball and football seasons. So it had to be played indoors, in a very confined space. And, of course, I argue in the book that basketball is a symbolic metaphor for urban life. That is when Americans were flocking to the cities in large numbers in the 1890s when basketball was invented; James Naismith came up with a game that, in many ways, replicates urban life. That is, it is the challenge of maneuvering in a very constricted space without impeding the progress of others, much like walking down Fifth Avenue at lunchtime, Michigan Avenue at rush hour, or Times Square in the evening. And so basketball becomes a metaphor for urban life. As African Americans began to move into northern cities, including Manhattan, including New York City, after the turn of the 20th century, they began to gravitate to YMCAs, which is when they learned basketball and then played it and began to excel at it. So again, I'm not sure where your question got me to this point. So, I need to retrace my steps a little bit.

Darin Hayes
No, you know, you're you're you're laying out the groundwork and telling it very well. So the YMCA sort of that catalyst or that meeting place of religion and sports, that's their vehicle, I guess, to portray what you're saying, you know, during the Industrial Revolution to bring men into getting a little bit fitter. We probably need some revival to this day with the video games going on with our children, everything, too. But, interestingly, you talked about Dr. Smith in Springfield YMCA and, you know, because also one of his students and also want to believe one of the first participants in his basketball game was a young man named Amos Alonzo Stagg, who had quite a bit of the foundation of early football. So it's interesting that you are bringing those two. You have two major sports that are sort of sprouting from that one YMCA building.

Dr. Randall Balmer
Yes, Nate Smith and Ayman Solonzo Staggs were teammates on the football team at the YMCA training school. They were undersized compared to the other football powerhouses at that time, which were Yale, Princeton, Harvard, and the Ivy League schools. The football team at the Springfield School came to be known as Staggs Stubby Christians.

Darin Hayes
Well, I'm sure they could have been called worse, I'm sure. So, well, I expect they probably were very interesting. Okay. So, I mean, I liked the metaphor, how you say that with a basketball sort of being that, you know, going through without getting each other's way and avoiding each other, and that's a very interesting insight.

Dr. Randall Balmer
Well, I want to talk about football in particular. So, let me talk about that as well. Sure. Football, of course, evolved from really two games, rugby and what we know today as soccer. These are also, in their early days, known as mob games. And in fact, all of these games are mob games in that you have a lot of participants. Sometimes, you don't even have delimited fields. And so everybody is just kind of crowding on this onto the field. However, one of the common characteristics in the evolution of these four major team sports is moving from mob games to a more regulated field and rules that govern behaviors. So for example, with football, one of the major points in the evolution of football is when Walter Camp, who's usually called the father of American football, finally persuaded other schools, meaning Princeton, Harvard, Columbia, and others, to reduce the number of players on a team from 15 to 11. He also disliked the rugby scrum. So he got rid of that in favor of a line of scrimmage. And so that's why we have a line of scrimmage in football. And he did that in part to try to mitigate some of the violence associated with rugby. However, I'm not sure that worked all that well because, with the line of scrimmage, the lineman can get a head of steam before they run into the other players. But in particular, he wanted to introduce strategy into the football game.
What's important to remember about the game of football in terms of its history is that football is more or less the current form in which we know it was developed by the sons, brothers, and nephews of Union Army soldiers in the Civil War. So, it developed at Northeastern schools, such as Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and so forth, as well as Penn, in the years after the Civil War. Football is the quintessential war game because it involves the conquest and the defense of territory, much like the battle at Gettysburg, Antietam in the Civil War, or Manassas or Bull Run. These are all battlefields. Again, this is how you determine the winner or survivor in these battlefields who could take the most territory from the opponent. So football is a war game. In the early years, there are all sorts of quotes in the book about this; the war imagery and language used to describe football are just all over the place.
Another characteristic of football, as we know very well, is violence. You have violence in hockey, of course, when you have the fights. But violence in football is scripted into the game itself. So you have a lot of violence, which is part of the reason it's attractive to a lot of Americans. We are a violent society; I think we have to come to terms with that. And football, in many ways, is the quintessential Central American game because because of its violence. So football is war, and we see that to get today. You're watching a football game, and the announcer refers to the quarterback as the field general or the quarterback is launching long bombs or bullet passes. They talk about trench warfare, that is, between the offensive line and the defensive line, much like you would use in military language and other terminology in football, training camp, and scouting. These are all military terms that apply to the game of football.

Darin Hayes
That's, I've never really thought about that way, but you are right. And we, you know, often we hear announced or saying, you know, the, the battle of these two teams on the field or, you know, and it's the strategy, a lot of it, you know, you're trying to outflank your opponent just as you would a platoon in, in battle in a war. So that's a very, very interesting insight.

Dr. Randall Balmer
The other thing is that as the strategies on the battlefield have changed over the 20th century, so have football strategies. That is to say, in the early years of football, it was a running game for the most part. And, you know, you had trench warfare just like you would have in World War I. Beginning in the 1940s and 1950s with the Korean War and the Vietnam War, that's also the time that you had much more passing in professional and college football. So, as warfare strategies changed over the 20th century, football strategies changed in the same direction.

Darin Hayes
We are going more to an aerial game, with aerial attacks in both instances. That is a very, very, very good insight.

Dr. Randall Balmer
And you used the term aerial attack again just now, which is military language.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, you're right. Wow. I guess I've never thought too much about the correlations between them, but I think you definitely are on to something. Doctor, so you, religious part, you said, you know, it started at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Now, how does religion still affect the games of sports, particularly football, to this day?

Dr. Randall Balmer
Yeah, I think it is in many ways. And I wanted to go into the book, I wanted to go deeper into this, but you have these kinds of surface similarities. For example, you have sacred space, right? For religion, it's the holy city of Mecca, or a cathedral or a synagogue. In sports, you've got Fenway Park, or Wrigley Field, or Lambeau Field, or the Big House in Ann Arbor, Michigan, particularly places that have more historical meaning, more history to them; you have this sort of sense of sacrality in those places. You have rituals, you know; as a football fan, there are certain rituals, such as the national anthem, for example, the players running onto the field amidst all sorts of pyrotechnics with fire and smoke and so forth. Well, in religion, you've got a liturgical procession that begins worship with the bishops and the acolytes and the priests processing, along with the choir, and very often with incense, smoke coming along with them, very similar to what you have in a football game. You have authority, you have a sacred text, you have the Bible or the Quran or whatever it might be. For sports, it's a rule book. And everybody agrees on these premises that this is how the game is supposed to be played. You have authorities: head coach, bishop, cardinal, and priest, and ultimate authority would be the Pope, for example, or the commissioner in baseball. And you even have saints. Certainly, you have saints within religion. But for sports, the saints are the members of the halls of fame because they're the ones who are exemplary and have excelled over the rest of us. So you have those kind of commonalities as well. But again, as I, in the book, I wanted to go a little bit deeper than that and say, look, there are instances in the development of these sports where people with religious convictions were part of the evolution of these sports but also brought those values to each sport.

Darin Hayes
Okay. So, if you take that further, the crowds, fans, and stands would be the congregations. Is that the correct correlation?

Dr. Randall Balmer
Yeah, absolutely. One of the best examples of that is hockey. I think it is because hockey is Canada's game, as we know it. What's interesting about hockey is that it emerges out of lacrosse. Lacrosse is the immediate predecessor to hockey. In lacrosse, there was a big effort in 1867, the year of the Canadian Confederation. That's when Canada became a country rather than a British part of the Commonwealth. There was an attempt in 1867 to designate lacrosse as the real national game of Canada. So you have that connection, and I was going to make another point, but I forgot whatever it was about that, so maybe I'll circle back to it. I apologize.

Darin Hayes
Oh, that's not a problem at all. Okay. So you, you, I mean, you got my wheels spinning here. So you've got, uh, you know, the fans that are, are, are passionate about their teams, just like, uh, you know, parishioners are, are passionate about theirs, their faith and practicing their faith and talking about their faith and, uh, you know, spreading they're, trying to spread their faith onto others and, uh, join the congregation. So I guess that would be like bandwagoning, uh, you know, that we have in sports, so very interesting.

Dr. Randall Balmer
Yeah, and I did remember your comment; it reminded me of the point I was trying to make. So, hockey being Canada's game, the real congregation nationally is telecast every Saturday night during the hockey season, called hockey night in Canada. And you know, it's a kind of call to worship work for Canadians to gather around their television and watch two hockey games as part of their coming together. And that, again, speaks to the need for community. That is, we're looking for some sort of attachment to others. At one time, and it still does for a lot of people, religion was that place of congregation or place of attachment. I think now, more and more, it's tribal loyalties to teams. I mentioned in the book I have a friend here in town who said, in our conversation, that if I'm filling my car with gas at the station, gas station, and a pickup truck comes up alongside me with a New England Patriots bumper sticker, we immediately have something to talk about. Even though we might be very different regarding our socioeconomic background or class, we may have politics utterly opposed to one another. But being Patriots fans, we have that commonality; we have that bond that eludes us, I think, in many other areas of American life.

Darin Hayes
You're right. I guess even if you're the opposition, after this past Sunday and last evening, I'm a Steelers fan, apologetically. And after that, even if I saw a Patriots fan or a Browns fan right now after losing to him, there's still a commonality of discussion that you could have about the game. Maybe it's the opposing sides of an opinion, but you know, you still have a bond between that game and the ritual of the game. Yes, exactly.

Dr. Randall Balmer
you do

Darin Hayes
Well, very interesting. Now, how about, I guess, if we stay in the realm of professional football, you know, Sundays sort of being that holy day where most of the games are played and, you know, it's football Sunday. Is that another one of the correlations that you make?

Dr. Randall Balmer
Yeah, it is. And I think that also provides a way of understanding how we've moved away from organized faith to athletics. Of course, in the early days of each of these sports, there were strict Sabbatarian laws, that is to say, that these games could not be played on Sundays because this was the day for church. You know what happens, of course, is that the owners, in particular, push for the repeal of those laws for their own economic interest and well-being. I use an example in the book of East Lake Community Church, which is in the suburbs of Seattle, Washington. Seattle is in the Pacific time zone, and Sunday morning worship was at ten o'clock, as it is for many other religious groups in America. Well, when the Seahawks were playing in the Eastern time zone against the Bills, the Steelers, the Giants, or whomever, the Dolphins, for that matter. The game time, one o ''o'clock Eastern, is exactly ten o 'o'clock Pacific time. So what are you going to do? And what they did, as is true of many religious groups, was they canceled their ten o ''o'clock Sunday morning worship service and rescheduled it for five o ''o'clock on Sunday afternoon after the games were over. So that's an indication of who is determining or dictating the schedule. And these days, athletic events seem to be taking precedence over religious gatherings.

Darin Hayes
It's interesting, and I'm sure that when they developed Sunday night football, it put another angst into their schedule.

Dr. Randall Balmer
I expected it. I hadn't thought about that, yes, but I expect so.

Darin Hayes
Well, very interesting. Now, how does, with all this going on, and you know, I know they're working around schedules for worship services. Now, is there anything else that religion is doing to embrace or to repel, you know, some of their parishioners and the faithful from going, you know, over the edge and being a total fanatic, and be, you know, stay a fanatic towards their religion. Are there some measures being taken?

Dr. Randall Balmer
That's a good question. I'm not aware of anything. I think many religious leaders are just kind of throwing up their hands and saying, we can't compete. We can't compete with this. It's a major cultural force for so many people that if we try to stand against or denounce it, we'll lose credibility with our followers. And we simply can't compete. Again, like this church out in Washington. And again, that's not an unusual story. A lot of places of worship have made those sorts of concessions. And I think the other way you see this sort of accommodating is that the muscular Christianity movement, which I mentioned earlier, but you also have, for example, among Roman Catholics, the CYO, the Catholic Youth Organization that begins, I believe in the 1920s, don't hold me to that, in Chicago. Again, it provides athletics for young Catholics to participate in this muscular Christian movement. Even among Jews, the young men's Hebrew associations were trying to, in effect, replicate the YMCAs, also offering recreation along with religious instruction. And by the way, this goes way back, and I don't spend much time with this in the book. Still, I do mention it: way back to the ancient Greeks, the ancient gymnasiums that were founded in ancient Greece were a place of athletic pursuits and competition, but also a place where people came to discuss ideas, whether religious or philosophical. It was a place where both the mind and the spirit, as well as the body, were exercised. So this has a long history, even dating back long before muscular Christianity emerged.

Darin Hayes
Okay, now you just brought the, I'm picturing like the Roman Colosseum and I believe I've seen photographs or maybe I've read it where they had statues of the gods that they believed in incorporated into the design or maybe in the arches or something of the Colosseum. Is that what you're also talking about with the Greek arenas?

Dr. Randall Balmer
Yes, I think that would be an example of that sort of thing, but you know that, and the Greeks had this idea. I don't want to get philosophical here because I'm not a philosopher, but Aristotle's Nicomachean ethics argued that individuals can develop virtues within themselves by practicing being virtuous. So, similarly to an athlete, a placekicker becomes a good place kicker by kicking the ball by being a placekicker over and over again. You're building this muscle memory and so forth. And so, the cultivation of virtues was intertwined with athletic development in ancient Greece.

Darin Hayes
Okay, I guess it may be the epitome that comes to my mind today. I think it's probably accidental that this happened, but at the University of Notre Dame, you know, the football field, I believe the one end zone looks at a building with a picture of Jesus with his hands up. They've deemed him touchdown Jesus, who affectionately called around them.

Dr. Randall Balmer
Exactly. And it looks right over the football stadium. Yes, I've been there. It's quite remarkable.

Darin Hayes
Like I said, it might be somewhat accidental, but I'm not sure how exactly that whole thing came about. It's a fact of life in the world of football today. Well, Doctor, I appreciate you coming. This is very intriguing. Now, I guess you said something early on in our discussion about how the mid-century, the 1950s, culminated in where we got to modern athletics and modern sports with the big four. Now, I'm assuming this was a gradual, I guess, competition, maybe for lack of a better word, between, you know, religion and athleticism leading up to that. So, there was some point where they were probably fairly equal. Would that be like the World War II era between World War I and World War II?

Dr. Randall Balmer
Yeah, it probably would be the zenith for American religious affiliation. Religious life was probably in the 1950s in the Cold War era. And I think it's only really been in the last several decades that that's begun, again, to shift more in the direction of athleticism. And again, I, you know, I, I'm not suggesting that the two are mutually exclusive. I mean, a lot of people attend church and then head off to the stadium for force for a Sunday afternoon, watching a baseball game, or whatever, whatever it might be. But it is striking me that the level of religious adherence has dropped rather dramatically over the last several decades, and at the same time, athletic passion, I think, has increased.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I definitely agree with you. I'm not saying it on an individual basis, but if you're looking at it from 50,000 feet and, you know, studying everything, you're absolutely right. The trends are sort of going in opposite directions, but the similarities are uncanny. I'm glad that you pointed those out and let us know about them. Why don't you let us know again what title your book is and where people can find it again?

Dr. Randall Balmer
It's called Passion Plays, How Religion Shapes Sports in North America. It's available, should be available in local bookstores, but also bookshop .com, I'm sorry, bookshop.org, Amazon.com, of course, Barnes and Noble, and other places as well. I should say that we've been talking about a lot of the elements of this book, but I also try to look into the symbolism surrounding each book. I'm sorry, each team sports. We also already talked about basketball as an urban game. We talked about football as a military game. Hockey is Canada's game for all sorts of very interesting reasons. Baseball is the quintessential immigrant game because it's the only game where the defense controls the ball. And it's the object of the offensive player, the batter, to disrupt the defense's control of the ball. He's outnumbered nine to one, just like the immigrant coming into the country at that time, who was very much outnumbered in his attempts to make a place in American society. And as he looked out into that hostile territory from the batter's box, he saw three islands of safety out there in that hostile territory. And the greatest triumph for the immigrant, as for the batter, is to return home. Therefore, homecoming is a very important part of baseball. And it's also true that immigrants and outsiders have always excelled at the game of baseball. In the 19th century, it would be immigrants from Germany, Italy, or from Scandinavia. Later on, of course, it's African -Americans who finally broke the color barrier with Jackie Robinson in 1947. And more recently, of course, as you know, a lot of players are coming from the Caribbean, particularly the Dominican Republic and Venezuela, and now Asia. So it's immigrants who have always excelled in this game of baseball, and the game of baseball itself really replicates the immigrant experience.

Darin Hayes
Well, Doctor, you have a very interesting lens and are very philosophical. It's very, very intriguing. So, folks, I greatly suggest that you get a copy of Doctor Randall's book. Randall Balmer's book is here. Make sure you read this. It's a very compelling and interesting subject matter indeed. Doctor, do you have any before we let you go? Do you have any social media or websites or anything that you'd like people to know about so they can follow what you have going on?

Dr. Randall Balmer
Yes, I do. I have a website. It's www.randlebalmer. I'll try to keep it up. I'm not really good at keeping up on this sort of thing, but I'll try to do that. But the book is listed there.

Darin Hayes
Okay. And folks, if you're driving the car or don't have a pencil or pen, don't worry about it; we're going to put it in the show notes of this podcast. You can also find it on pigskindispatch.com for later reference so you can get connected to Dr. Balmer's information and to his book. And Dr. Rainer Balmer, thank you very much for joining us today and telling us about this very interesting discussion and for recording it in your very interesting book.

Dr. Randall Balmer 
Thank you, Darin. It's been my pleasure.