Football History

For passionate football fans, game days are more than just cheering on your team. They're about the camaraderie, the heart-pounding action, and the shared love for the gridiron. But that passion can extend far beyond the stadium. For many, it spills over into a lifelong pursuit of collecting treasured pieces of football history – jerseys worn by legends, signed helmets, or even game tickets from monumental upsets.

This series dives headfirst into the captivating world of American football collectibles and memorabilia. Whether you're a seasoned collector or just starting to explore this fascinating hobby, we've got something for you.

We'll delve into the different types of memorabilia, from iconic game-used items like helmets and jerseys to unique pieces like vintage programs and trading cards. We'll guide you through the ever-evolving world of authentication, helping you ensure the legitimacy of your prized possessions.

But this series goes beyond the simple act of collecting. We'll explore the stories behind the memorabilia, the iconic moments they represent, and the legendary players they were associated with. Each piece tells a story, a chapter in the grand narrative of football history.

So, gear up, football fans! Whether you're looking to unearth hidden gems at flea markets or track down that elusive signed photo, this series will be your roadmap to navigating the exciting world of American football collectibles. Let's find those pigskin treasures together!

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Our guest is historian and collector Jeff Payne, who joins us to discuss an incredible portion of his vintage gridiron collection concerning the 1948 Cleveland Browns. The 1948 Cleveland Browns cemented themselves in football history by achieving the seemingly impossible: an undefeated season. This summary details their dominant run:

Building the Team:

-Head coach Paul Brown continued to refine his squad after winning the previous two AAFC championships.

-Key additions included linebacker Alex Agase and halfbacks Ara Parseghian and Dub Jones.

Dominating the Regular Season:

-The Browns kicked off the season with a victory against the LA Dons and never looked back, winning all 14 regular season games.

-Their closest contests were two close wins against the San Francisco 49ers, who also finished with a strong record.

-The Browns offense averaged 27.8 points per game, the second-best in the league, while their defense held opponents to a league-low 13.6 points per game.

Securing the Championship:

-Finishing the season with a perfect 14-0 record, the Browns secured the Western Division title.

-They faced the Buffalo Bills, who had won the Eastern Division through a playoff in the AAFC Championship game.

-The Browns capped off their undefeated season by defeating the Bills 49-7, earning their third consecutive AAFC championship.

It's important to note that while the Browns' undefeated season is considered remarkable, it occurred in the AAFC, which merged with the NFL in 1950. The NFL does not officially recognize AAFC records, making the 1972 Miami Dolphins the only team in NFL history to complete an undefeated season.

However, the 1948 Cleveland Browns remain a legendary team, showcasing outstanding coaching, a well-rounded roster, and a dominant playing style that brought them perfection on the field.

Bonus stories in the Video
In the conversation with Jeff Payne, we chat about football-related stories outside the Browns. How about George Halas during wartime? Or Crazy Legs Hirsch connection to the AAFC? Or Johnny Unitas reason for wearing Black high-tops?

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When most hear the name of Edgar Allen Poe, the author of great literary works, poetry and 19th-century macabre probably come to mind. In football, a famous poet related to a family member by the same name was one heck of a QB for Princeton.

Historian and collector Jeff Payne joins us once again to share some pieces he has collected connected with College Football's first All-American Quarterback.

This is a podcast about Edgar Allan Poe, who was a quarterback for Princeton and the first All-American quarterback in college football history. The host of Pigskin Dispatch, Darin Hayes, is interviewing Jeff Payne, a collector and historian of football memorabilia.

Edgar Allan Poe was related to the famous poet Edgar Allan Poe, but they were not the same person. The football player Edgar Allan Poe's great-uncle was the poet Edgar Allan Poe.

Edgar Allan Poe played for Princeton in the late 1800s and was a very successful player. He led his team to an undefeated season and a national championship in 1889. He was also the first quarterback to be named an All-American.

After his football career, Edgar Allan Poe went on to become a lawyer, like his father. He also served as the Attorney General of Maryland.

Jeff Payne owns a cabinet card of Edgar Allan Poe from the late 1800s, among other items related to the early athlete. He also showed a trade card of Edgar Allan Poe that called him "the hero of the hour and the darling of the ladies."

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The celebration of the New York Football Giants' 100th season rolls on. We are in for a special treat in this 15th part of our series. Collector and Historian Jeff Payne brings some of his favorite NYG pieces to share some awesome gridiron history.

Part 15 of our celebration of the Giant's 100th season is underway, and what an awesome way to appreciate the early G-Men than to actually see some of the history. We also have the audio only available with the Giants Collectibles with Jeff Payne Podcast.

Darin Hayes: Hello, my football friends! This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the pig pen, your portal of positive football history, and welcome to another edition of a collector's corner of sorts. We have our friend Jeffrey Payne with us from the vintage football community, and Jeff has some great things to share with us for our celebration of the New York Giants. One-hundredth season is coming up in and Jeff, welcome back to the pig pen.

Jeff Payne: It's great to be here, Darin, thanks for having me.

Darin Hayes: Yeah, Jeff, you shared an email with me. You knew we were celebrating a lot of Giants’ items and be a kind of a popular event for us, and you really have some neat things in your collection that really fall right in with what we've been talking about here the last to episodes on our NYG—series.

Jeff Payne: Yeah, that's totally cool. Yeah, we can start as early as you want to go. You tell me where you want to begin.

Darin Hayes: Well, you take us back as far as you can, and let's go. Let's go. We'll go chronologically. How does that sound?

Jeff Payne: That sounds cool. Yeah, I don't know how much you've talked about it already. But obviously, the New York Giants, in was actually not the first professional team in New York City.

Jeff Payne: and they weren't even the Per. The first Nfl team in New York City which a lot of people don't know.

Jeff Payne: There was an NFL team that was earlier than them. They actually were formed before the NFL. In
they went by the name the New York Brickley Giants. For reasons. One is the New York baseball Giants funded the team, and Charles Brickley, who was a time all American at Harvard in the mid-teens, very well known in the northeast. He was kind of the, you know the the person who put it all together and back. Then, of course, it was very common for teams to put this name of their star in their in their name, like Never's, you know, was often mentioned, for the Duluth Eskimos, and Thorp's name worked its way in a few times, and some of the teams, so it wasn't uncommon, for, you know, teams to try to use their star's name to you know, attract.

Darin Hayes: Red Grange, Yankees, and.

Jeff Payne: Exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, they called themselves the New York Brickley Giants. And actually, in they ended up not playing any games, because, you know, at the time that was back when there were the Blue Laws where you couldn't play and do things on Sunday. Well, in New York City passed a law that you were allowed to play baseball on Sunday. So the New York baseball giants were like, Oh, that's cool. Well, maybe we should like, you know create a football team and play football on Sundays after the baseball season ends, and that's how they kind of hooked up with Charles Brickley.

Jeff Payne: But unfortunately, New York City was like, no, no, no, we just met baseball. We didn't mean football, and they apparently got their whole team organized and structured and everything, and they were just about to play their first game, and and they found out they weren't allowed to play on Sundays. And that's just like they just said, forget it. We're disbanding. We're disbanding the team.

Jeff Payne: If that's the case. Cause we we want to play on Sunday when nobody's working. So yeah, so that that transpired. And then then they went dormant for a couple of years, and then in pop back up. It wasn't the New York baseball giants this time. It was his name Billy
Gibson. He was a boxing promoter in New York City, and he heard about the NFL. He thought, hey, there ought to be a team in New York City, and he and Charles Brickley again got together, and Billy Gibson funded it, and Brickley was the coach and the you know, player coach, and I think you own part of it, too, and they, you know, entered the NFL that season. They have the distinction of being that team that played the second least games in Nfl history. They only played NFL games. They lost them both and then they fold it, or they they dropped out of the League. They were still around as an independent team. For a while

Darin Hayes: Well, real quick. Do you know the name of the team that played the least amount.

Jeff Payne: Oh, sure tuna wanda.

Darin Hayes: Yeah, okay. The lumberjacks or the Cardacks.

Jeff Payne: Kardash, or whoever they went for. Yeah, they played one game and dropped out, and the brick and giants played. Yeah, I actually have a postcard of one of the Taj Wanda players. Yeah, I've been. I've been out gun several times when they've come up on ebay. You know there's there's probably I don't know a handful of people in the world that would. They see those things? They know what they are, but there's always one other person that knows it, too, and always seems to outgun me, but I finally got my hands on one, probably.

Darin Hayes: I know or Buffalo, New York, Western New York collectors are probably appraising some of the people you're bidding against.

Jeff Payne: Yes, yeah, I know where many of them live. Which is fine, you know. I just happened to finally get one. So I was pretty happy about that, because that's a cool story, too, that.

Darin Hayes: Yeah, we'll have to talk about that sometime, too.

Jeff Payne: Yeah, no, that's awesome. I do have a couple of of nice images of Charles Brinkley. If you want me to.

Darin Hayes[b]: You. You have the share screen capability. Please do.

[b]Jeff Payne: Let me do that. Let me see the easiest way to do that. I think I'll just share screen and just pop them up probably easiest here. Alright, should be coming up for for you.

Darin Hayes: I mean.

Darin Hayes: Hold on a second. Yep, there we go!

Jeff Payne: Yeah. So here's Charles Brickley. Yeah. And when he played for the Maslin Maslin tigers in Ohio, so after Harvard he played for Maslin for a few years.
and I. This is just a great shot of an early Nfl. Or sorry early professional player, who was very well known. This shows him obviously kicking, or maybe, you know, looks like maybe even a drop kick, because he's not lifting his leg very high. But Maslin tigers. Charlie.

Darin Hayes: Charles.

Jeff Payne: Correctly in action, right.

Darin Hayes: You can tell. He's a little older, and and these days.

Jeff Payne: Well, yeah, when you see him later, he's he gained some weight I was gonna like I had to like, look at. I was like is this even the same dude he looks like he bounced up and down to maybe lost his baby fat. He got a little little thinner, and then, now, later on, he kinda put some more weight on here.

Darin Hayes: Maybe he was on the some of the the diets that Oprah was how she was gaining weight and losing weight all the time. You know.

Jeff Payne: Now this you'll and you'll notice he's a little bit chunkier in this picture. This is from his high or his college days. So this is, when he was at Harvard.

Darin Hayes: Oh, yeah.

Jeff Payne: He looks bigger here to me spaces then, but you know. But.

Darin Hayes: Little thicker, maybe in the midsection. Yeah.

Jeff Payne: Yeah, that's his, his coach, Percy Houghton, who's a hall of Fame coach and coached at Harvard for many years. So this is a you know. great photo mid mid teams photo of him. And then I do have one actually, from when he was trying to get the the Giants off the ground. Unfortunately, since they didn't play, it's not of him with the Giants, but instead, it's with him. Showing Fordham University players how to how to kick.You'll notice that almost all of Brickley's photos are him kicking the ball. You know. That was, you know, obviously back then. Kicking was so important in the game of football, you know, particularly before passing was even allowed. But even in these days passing was not, you know, done frequently. It was more desperation, and the rules didn't really support it. So you know, teams were punting very frequently. You needed a good needed a good kicker. You need somebody who could PIN them down and make them go the distance, because that was almost impossible to do. And so, you know, players like Brickley. you know Thorpe was another one who were known for their kicking prowess. They also were both great. Drop kickers. You needed that kicker right? In fact, story about the team. You know, one of the Nfl teams that
the Brickley Giants did play was Thorpe's Cleveland team.
Sometimes they went by the Indian, sometimes they went by the tigers, sometimes they went by the thorps. I swear you know they used all

Darin Hayes: Was. Was it? Was it the the Oorang team, or was it the Cleveland.

Jeff Payne: Oorang was and This was.

Darin Hayes: Okay.

Jeff Payne: Cleveland Tigers, slash, Indian slash, whatever they seem to change their name E every so often. But they played one of the only Nfl games that the Bricklay giants played and they played the Polo Grounds. And the reason people know this game is because
Thorpe and Brickley put on a kicking exhibition.
And there's actually a photo out there. I don't own it. I know. There, if you Google it, it is out there you'll see it because it's posted a few places. It shows both of them kind of getting ready to punt. It was probably staged.
but they put on a kicking exhibition and apparently there's some controversy about who won that. Some accounts say, Brickley kicked. They were drop kicking and kicking field goals. Some say Brickley kicked the farthest one, and somebody else said, No, on this last try, for surpassed him and and won it.

You know, of course, back then it was anything to get a fan in the stadiums, and you know they were. They often did kicking exhibitions, and just a any kind of entertainment imaginable, right? Like, you know you mentioned that who rang Indians? They always used to bring their their dogs out from the kennel and have them do tricks and do other things. I even heard they like used to tree a bear. If there was a tree around they'd get a bear out there and sound kind of crazy to me. But
That's the kind of stuff they were they were doing back then for entertainment.

Darin Hayes: They had, to do something to compete against the the college game. So pulling out all the stops was one way to do it. So yeah, very interesting. Very cool pictures.

Jeff Payne: Yeah, fortunate. Unfortunately, they didn't make it. But as I'm sure you know, and people probably heard then, of course, in the actual New York giants came along that are not affiliated at all with the Brickley giants, so their their histories aren't aren't aligned.

Darin Hayes: There. There's a little bit of history, though, involved, cause we we've learned that, you know, from Alan March, who's the great grandson of Dr. Harry March, that and and it's also recorded in Dr. March's writings in his famous book on Early Football History, that Dr. March and Tim Mara, or before they approach Tim Mara.

Joe Carr and March went to Billy Gibson to try to get him to to fund the the New York team, and he didn't want. He had a bad taste in his mouse, I guess, from the previous experience, and stayed with boxing, and and Mara took the the chance on it, so.

Jeff Payne: Well, and I I feel kind of bad for Billy Gibson, because the reason he took the team in was because the NFL. Staged an exhibition game in late or, Sorry, wrong century in Between. I think it was the Canton Bulldogs, and oh, it was the Buffalo Americans, and so they were good teams in the League, and they had an exhibition game in New York City and they had people show up.

So you know, Joe Carr's like, Wow, you know, New York City. Biggest city in America. Right? We did a team here, and he, you know, Billy Gibson's like, Wow, boy, people really like football. I'm all in, and, you know, paid the money and then sunk like a rock. So you know. I I think. The the promise was there right? I mean, that game showed that if you had the right teams or right audience or right situation.

You know, people would show up in New York.

But I think Billy Gibson was like, you got me once on this, you know. I'm not doing it again. But to your point, of course, he introduced Joe Carr to Mara, and you know, as I understand it, you know Dr. March's grandson. Right grandson, is that one.

Darin Hayes: Great great grandson, I believe.

Jeff Payne: Grandson would know better than than I do, certainly, but my understanding was, Mira said. I don't know anything about football at all. Sounds cool. I'm a sportsman and he, you know, reached out to find out who could help him put together a team, and and who knew something about football to help him out, and he, you know, pulled in Dr. March, and who really orchestrated everything and got everything and got the players
did all the heavy lifting, because Miro is like I I don't know anything about the sport, you know.

Darin Hayes: I think the rest of his quote was because there's a $entrance fee. The yeah. The car was charging to get in, he said. God, anything's worth a bet on $you know. So so something that affect so.

Jeff Payne: Yup!

Darin Hayes: But that had to be a good chunk of change back in, you know, s.

Jeff Payne: Yeah, I heard that was it equates to like.
I just read it

Jeff Payne: somewhere between and maybe in today's dollars. So it wasn't huge amount of money. But still, you know, hey, you know, it's not something usually lying around. You're just like.

Darin Hayes: Right, right.

Jeff Payne: Thrown to the wind. But yeah, no merit merit did it. And here we are, right. A years later, and you know.

Darin Hayes: They've added quite a bit to football. That's for sure.

Jeff Payne: Yeah, no, the the giants are obviously an iconic franchise. It's so cool that we're starting to see year anniversaries for these teams. Now, right.

Darin Hayes: Easy.

Jeff Payne: You know. You know we're we got a some coming up in the early early thirties as well right.

Darin Hayes: Right, yeah.

Jeff Payne: Those are all coming up, and of course, this year is also the possible Maroons, one of my my loves, their hundredth year anniversary of their starting almost end in the Nfl.

Darin Hayes[b]: And I felt great. Yeah, very fearful.

[b]Jeff Payne: To see teams that are that

Jeff Payne: old

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah. Who'd who would have thought?

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, I know right? And and I love the story about the the grains game. Of course, that's pretty well published and and legendary of, you know, Grange coming into into New York City, and you know, playing against the Giants, and you know the numbers I saw, and you all might have covered. It was, I think, mirror was something like in the hole at the end of that first season, and they've had a good year. I think they lost their first games NFL games, and then they won like in a row. I mean they. They had a pretty stinking good year for their first year in the League, but they couldn't draw enough to break even and what I heard was, Mara was really on the fence about, how long am I gonna do this? You know, if it's gonna be a you know, year, you know investment every year. I can't do that very, very long you know, and you know everybody says that more or less range, and the bears coming into New York playing that infamous game they drew what close to fans they estimate.

Darin Hayes: Yeah, there's between and

Jeff Payne: Tender.

Darin Hayes: For reports, and you know the newspapers weren't super.

Jeff Payne: I think.

Darin Hayes: Yeah, hey? Sliding out of fingers.

Jeff Payne: Ooo! Ooo! Yeah, that kind of saved the save the year. Right? Save the franchise. Maybe it's possible that.

Darin Hayes: Save football in New York, you know. Sure.

Jeff Payne: Yeah, they would have had to gone back to Billy Gibson again, and.

Darin Hayes: See.

Jeff Payne: Yeah, he can wrestle up next right.

Darin Hayes: Yeah, exactly.

Jeff Payne: We do have a couple of of cool things from some of the players on that first team. Now, I don't have anything that shows Thorp on that team because he did play for them early on in the season. I think that was me's first attempted, hey? I'm gonna you know. I'm gonna bring in a name hopefully, a draw. And you know.
yeah, I don't remember what he was paying Thorp, but I'm sure it wasn't cheap, because Thorpe didn't play for cheap didn't matter how old he was. He wasn't play for cheap but he didn't play very much. He was just too old, just too injured, too broken down and I don't remember how many games he was involved. But Merra cut him loose at some point, and just they just agreed to part ways because he wasn't helping the team, and they were losing so much money that you know it just didn't make sense for him to stay engaged ironically. I have a photo of Dutch Hendrian, who is another player on the team. Old school pro I don't have it with me right now, but it's really skinny, tall and skinny, and I always wonder why it was cut like that. Well, it's actually a picture that has Thorpe in it, too. It's Henrieten and Thorpe, and, like one or other dudes in a row on the field, somebody cut it up sold it off. I'm sure they sold the thorp out from under it, so I can say I have part of a photo of Thorpe, but it doesn't show photo of Thorpe in it. You gotta like. Imagine he's next to him, you know, when you look at it.

Darin Hayes: And just have a make his hand or something.

Jeff Payne: Exactly just shows Dutch, Henry. But I've seen the full photo. I'm like, man. I wish I had that
that full photo, because that's that's pretty cool.
But players I'm sure you all have talked about which which I really admire, and they were definitely stars of that team were Hinky Hayes and Haynes, Hinky Haynes and Jack Mcbride.

Jeff Payne: Of course you and I be in Pennsylvania, boys. We love the fact. Both those boys grew up in Pennsylvania.

Jeff Payne: you know. So you know

Jeff Payne: Hanky Haynes was from, I think Red Lion's, where he grew up.

Darin Hayes[b]: I think so.

[b]Jeff Payne: I think that's it. I actually wrestled a kid from Red Lion College

Jeff Payne: never wrestled anybody from there in high school, but I wrestled him in college. I think he went to Lockhaven or Bloomsburg or somewhere, so I knew Red Lion. They have good wrestling programs, and

Jeff Payne: and Jack Mcbride was from closer to Philly, down by conscien, which is like between like Valley Forge and Philly ish sorta. So they're about Pennsylvania, boys, which go PA right, PA.

Darin Hayes[b]: Surprise the the answer Site League didn't like snatch them up. You know they were going.

[b]Jeff Payne: No? Right? Yeah. Well, well, I think like.

Jeff Payne: well, Haines played for one of the semi pro teams

Jeff Payne: earlier in the twenties, I'm gonna say, Philly team. Maybe, like the Quakers.

Jeff Payne: there was a there was a

Jeff Payne: independent team in Philly that was pretty big at that time.

Darin Hayes[b]: They had, like Union Club of Phoenixville.

[b]Jeff Payne: Like that. Yeah.

Darin Hayes[b]: For the month.

[b]Jeff Payne: Like that. Yeah.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, yeah.

[b]Jeff Payne: He played there.

Jeff Payne: but I don't think either of them played in the the answers Anthrax League.

Jeff Payne: Of course you know I love trivia right like the what team played the

Jeff Payne: you know. Fewest Nfl games. Of course, you know, Hinky Haynes claimed the famous.

Jeff Payne: I believe he's the only player that won a World series and an Nfl championship.

Darin Hayes[b]: It's right.

[b]Jeff Payne: Of course Dion Sanders made it to the World Series. He won several Nfl championships, you know. Super bowls didn't win the World Series, though, wasn't with the braves when they won, so he doesn't qualify. So yeah, Hanky Haynes is the only one great great trivia question for you all football

Jeff Payne: guys. And you know, there's not a lot of Hanky Hane stuff out there. I mean, I've seen some photos and stuff like that.

Jeff Payne: I have one thing from Hickie Haines, which is kind of cool. We

Jeff Payne: share my screen again real quick, and I'll bring it up.

Jeff Payne: And it's a baseball item. Actually, it's called mother's bread PIN

Jeff Payne: Haines with the Yankees in he only played one year in the major leagues, so he was fortunate enough to play with the Yanks and win the World Series.

Darin Hayes[b]: What? What does the F stand for like fielder or.

[b]Jeff Payne: No

Jeff Payne: Well, he was. He was a center fielder.

Jeff Payne: But his first name is

Jeff Payne: Frank or Fred. I don't know if that's the position or his first initial.

Darin Hayes[b]: Okay.

[b]Jeff Payne: No, because he was a center fielder. So I'm like, okay, does that mean they were designated? He was a fielder, or is that designated his first name was Whatever it is sorry with an FI know that.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, that it probably is.

[b]Jeff Payne: Wasn't.

Darin Hayes[b]: Color is his last name. It's probably his first initial. Yeah, that's good.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, I'd have to find another that they did a bunch of mother's bread. Did a bunch of pins that year

Jeff Payne: of players. So.

Jeff Payne: yeah, so you know, one of the things I collect is kind of a sub collection you and I may have talked about. It is, I call it footballers in other sports.

Jeff Payne: I have this huge checklist of every player that I've ever been able to find

Jeff Payne: that played professional football all the way back to the hundreds, but also has something from another sport. Lot of it's baseball, right? You know, you've got the, you know, Patty Driscoll's and the Ernie never's. And those guys who all played baseball, and they've got various cards. You know. But you know occasionally you find some kind of cool items like this as well. It's the only Hanky Haynes item that I've.

Darin Hayes[b]: How? How about one of my favorites, Jack Hayden, who'd have been turning the century, you know, played for the Franklin team I wrote about, and I think he played for Connie Mac and the Philadelphia Athletics and baseball.

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, yep.

[b]Jeff Payne: So that's my hinky hands. I have a couple of Jack Mcbride. He's the other the other guy. Of course he didn't stay in States hanky hands once Penn state, by the way, so he's a nitty lion hashtag, we are but he and he was a you know, baseball and football player

Jeff Payne: at Penn State did really well on that. But Mcbride left the State. He left the Philly area, went to Syracuse

Jeff Payne: and had a good, you know. Good

Jeff Payne: good good career up there in Syracuse before he drifted back.

Jeff Payne: you know, over to New York. I have a couple of things

Jeff Payne: from him that I.

Darin Hayes[b]: This was like in in Haines and Mcbride, in those first few giants teams that was their their rushing special. That was their backfield mates, too.

[b]Jeff Payne: They were. They were backfield mates, and also, you know, back in that day they both through a lot of passes, too, so you'll see them designated, as you know, you know.

Jeff Payne: quarterback, slash, halfback, or something, both of them. In fact, I think Hinky Haynes was designated as the Qb. The year they won the Nfl championship in

Jeff Payne: so he was considered their quarterback. But they both through the ball. This is the back of a giants program, and I always like this image of Jack Mcbride just looks so tough. There, you can tell. He was a brawler and a bruiser.

Jeff Payne: I always thought that was pretty cool.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, it looks like a hard asset, somebody you don't want to go outside with at the bar, and then.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, he he might have spent some time town downtown, Philly, getting into some fist fights when.

Darin Hayes[b]: Right.

[b]Jeff Payne: Young and spry, and then he has a

Jeff Payne: He! He has a matchbook as well from

Jeff Payne: which I think is cool.

Darin Hayes[b]: That's a Syracuse uniform. He is on.

[b]Jeff Payne: You know.

Jeff Payne: I mean, it's But who knows when that photo was taken.

Darin Hayes[b]: The first thing if I'm reading upside down

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: product of series.

[b]Jeff Payne: Product.

Darin Hayes[b]: University is. There's.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah.

Darin Hayes[b]: I would be, you know.

[b]Jeff Payne: Form is.

Jeff Payne: It's kind of a funky uniform. It does have a lot of orange in it. So.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah.

[b]Jeff Payne: Giants had some.

Jeff Payne: you know. Orange, too, right? For a while. Yeah, I think they they might have.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, yeah, could have.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yup, so that.

Jeff Payne: His match book, which I think was cool.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, if I'm reading right, they're advertising. You know. Size, what? foot, pounds, you know

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: today, that would be the the water boy. I think I know.

[b]Jeff Payne: Maybe ball boy. And then my big, my big piece from is the you know the program from the game.

Jeff Payne: So I've had a couple of these. Actually, they're not as hard to find as you might imagine, just because there were of them of them. Well, who knows how many people bought the program. But obviously there were a lot of these programs

Jeff Payne: purchased at that game. So you know, I I am working on a run of all of the barnstorming programs from the Red Grange barnstorming tour.

Jeff Payne: you know that started, you know, right after he graduated. Well, right after he finished his last college game up through

Jeff Payne: early you know,

Darin Hayes[b]: That's a lot of games. So we we had Chris Willis of Nfl. Films, wrote a good nice book on. We had him on and have his book, and you know great coverage of all those different stops in the Floridas and out West, and everywhere else, is pretty cool.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, and like.

Darin Hayes[b]: And a buckling with some items.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, no, that'd be a fun talk, too, is to talk that through that that thing I got I have quite a few things from that. I I don't have a massive amount of programs. I probably have or of them, and I think there was like or

Jeff Payne: or installing games, and I've missed on as well. You know, a long time, collector friend.

Jeff Payne: you know. I remember him telling a story about how he missed on something he really wanted, and he said, Oh, well, you know, I'll get it next time it rolls around. And then he he said it took years before he saw it again. And his his lesson was, if it's something that really really fits your collection you really really want. And you know, it's really really rare. You better freaking. Buy it.

Darin Hayes[b]: I gotta buy it when it's available.

[b]Jeff Payne: You may never see it again, and I violated that rule twice.

Jeff Payne: and I am still kicking myself because I have never seen either of those programs again. This one, you will see. I've had copies of this program.

Jeff Payne: I traded one few years ago for some other very early Nfl programs.

Jeff Payne: but just a

Jeff Payne: great image of Grange on the front, you know.

Darin Hayes[b]: But, Jeff, just just curious. So being going to your collector side when you have a paper products, you know that we're not meant to survive and be a hundred years old, like they are. How how do you care for those, or display them? Or you know they like, locked in way in darkness? Or do you have them

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: like Madden and frame? How how do you display that.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, I don't have any of my programs

Jeff Payne: matted and displayed.

Jeff Payne: I have some big cabinet photos matted and displayed. They're all

Jeff Payne: behind, you know, ultra UV

Jeff Payne: glass, you know, if if they're

Jeff Payne: I keep my programs and my other stuff for the most part in binders in the dark.

Jeff Payne: Never see the light of day other than if I pull it out and look at it.

Jeff Payne: But yeah, in in, you know, acid free, you know, holders and binder pages. You know you do need to be careful, because I mean right years old. This thing is years old.

Darin Hayes[b]: Alright!

[b]Jeff Payne: You know.

Jeff Payne: and you know you can see it's gone through. The war. Looks like somebody crumpled it up and stuck it wanted it in their coat pocket.

Darin Hayes[b]: Cup of coffee on it on the corner.

[b]Jeff Payne: No? Right? Yeah. Well, it's funny a lot of those old programs, you will see. And they will just have a crease right straight down the middle, because, of course, back. Then everybody dressed up to go out, and you can just envision somebody getting a program at the end of the game, fold it in half, stick it in their coat inside pocket. Right? I do that.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, really.

[b]Jeff Payne: Stuff all the time. If I have a suitcode on.

Darin Hayes[b]: And it's just.

[b]Jeff Payne: I I think it's kind of cool, right? You're like, oh, I know what happened to this program. I know exactly what this person did watch the game, and then folded it in half and stuck it in their coat pocket. And here it is today.

Jeff Payne: This one didn't do that, but it looks like they I don't know held it over their head to stop the rain, or I I don't know what they did with this thing, but it.

Jeff Payne: It got beat up.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, we'll have to look at. See what the weather report was. On December sixth, in New York.

[b]Jeff Payne: Oh, well, you know I don't know if you heard the story about that, but my understanding was that up that of course this is early December, so early December in New York. You could get anything right. I mean, that's like playing in Chicago any in December, and my understanding, from what I read is that the weather up

Jeff Payne: coming up to the game was not very good. I don't know if they had a lot of snow, but I know it was cold, and they had some precipitation. They had some rain, and what I've heard is that Mera was just nervous is all heck, you know. I mean he was betting a lot on this game. Of course he went out there to the Midwest to try to convince Grange to play for the giants that didn't work out too late.

Jeff Payne: but kudos to him, he immediately pivoted around, and he said, Well, next best thing is, get him to come to New York for a game, and

Jeff Payne: he got that commitment. And now

Jeff Payne: it's all dependent on the weather right? And what I heard is it? Up until the day before it was. It was not good weather, and sometime that night.

Jeff Payne: you know, that didn't. The night before the game

Jeff Payne: skies cleared up, things got nicer out still cold, obviously in New York. But

Jeff Payne: nice day.

Jeff Payne: least partly sunny.

Jeff Payne: And he woke up, and he was just like, Thank you. God, I need this, and I read that that the Giants made like a hundred $off that game something like that. Now, I don't know if that was the grand total, and then they split it, you know, with with Grange and the bears, or that was their take.

Jeff Payne: but regardless it more than pulled them out of the hole, and.

Jeff Payne: you know, gave them a cushion that they could use going forward, which you know.

Darin Hayes[b]: Great sign sign in some of these players that helped them win a championship. But you're coming up.

[b]Jeff Payne: Well, another another trivia. Another early trivia is at point Tim Mara owned at the same time Nfl franchises.

Darin Hayes[b]: Really.

[b]Jeff Payne: Cause. I know.

Darin Hayes[b]: I know about one other one other than the giants, but.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yes, he.

Jeff Payne: my understanding is, you know. Obviously he made the decision to buy the Detroit team because he wanted Benny Friedman. That was the only way I could he could get them was they were flailing. They belonged to Detroit.

Jeff Payne: He was worried. Somebody else was gonna buy him. I think he bought it for like grand.

Jeff Payne: So he bought the Detroit team and took their players

Jeff Payne: and so now he had

Jeff Payne: and I don't remember what he did with that one. I don't remember if he turned it back in the League eventually, but he had to.

Jeff Payne: and then the other one was. My understanding is

Jeff Payne: because of his arrangement with Grange

Jeff Payne: and

Jeff Payne: CC. Pyle when he allowed them to come into the Nfl

Jeff Payne: with the other New York team, the Yankees

Jeff Payne: if I'm remembering that right. That was the third one that he ended up with when Ccp.

Jeff Payne: Decided he didn't want to carry forward with the Nfl. Version of that team after a few years.

Jeff Payne: and he ended up with that one, too, and I believe that became the Staten Island. Stapleton's like he sold that to somebody else

Jeff Payne: to form the staple tins, because he still.

Darin Hayes[b]: Oh, okay.

[b]Jeff Payne: The rights in New York.

Jeff Payne: and he was only gonna sell it to somebody that you know. He kinda felt like he controlled or they weren't, you know, encroaching in territory, but he actually, I read. He had Nfl franchises at the same time.

Darin Hayes[b]: Taking a while. Guess I was thinking like, maybe the the horseman, the afl horseman team, because I know they merged with somebody, and I couldn't remember

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: if that was it. But so he had the the New York ranges. Ccp. Yankees in their Nfl year. Okay, after that.

[b]Jeff Payne: I believe that is yeah. So he owned at once, which is kind of freaking crazy. You think about it.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, it is.

[b]Jeff Payne: From not knowing anything about football to owning

Jeff Payne: basically franchises, of them defunct. Obviously they weren't playing.

Darin Hayes[b]: How many people can you can say that, you know, cause even like Burt Bell, only part of you know. He was ownership of different franchise. I can't think of anybody else that

[b]Jeff Payne: Honestly at the same time. Right you could think of like you know, Ollie Osg Group, if that's how you pronounce his name, who own the Eskimos, and then negotiated with the Nfl. A smart man to have the right to be part owner in a future team in the area, and man. That was a pretty cool move on his part.

Jeff Payne: I can't think of many.

Darin Hayes[b]: Unless you count like, you know, or or say trading the the you know, with the rams Colts thing. Yeah. And the the other party on that I forget their name. But the yeah, very cool.

[b]Jeff Payne: The other thing I thought you might like is, and you may have had somebody else show one of these. But

Jeff Payne: these were season passes.

Jeff Payne: They call them silver passes that the New York giants sold

Darin Hayes[b]: Never seen that before. That's cool.

[b]Jeff Payne: Well, I think they stole it from some of the New York baseball teams, because I've seen baseball ones. They're obviously not shaped like this, but they're baseball ones from the mid twenties to from New York, and I can't remember if they were Yankees or giants.

Jeff Payne: But same idea right? You know, a silver pass, you know.

Jeff Payne: with the team on the front

Jeff Payne: and then on the back, which I think is really cool.

Jeff Payne: is, you know, the name of the person

Jeff Payne: and and the number of the past. This is for the season.

Jeff Payne: Now I've made it a little hobby every time one of these comes up I go on newspaperscom to see if I can figure out who the heck. This person was right. I did track down Mr. Trumbull. As you would imagine if you were buying a season pass. You probably had some cash in So it wasn't actually that hard to find the ones that I've seen.

Jeff Payne: because they tend to be people who are at least somewhat well known or affiliated with sports in the New York area. Mr. Trumbull was a newspaper columnist for one of the papers. I've read some of his articles from back in It's clearly him.

Jeff Payne: Which is kinda cool.

Jeff Payne: you know. I think he was in Brooklyn. Is that where he was at? Yeah, I think it was Brooklyn. I've seen one for John Mcgraw, manager for the New York, you know, baseball team.

Darin Hayes[b]: Baseball. Giants. Yeah.

[b]Jeff Payne: Back in the day. I've seen one for him, so he was clearly a season ticket holder, and I've seen one for a judge.

Jeff Payne: So I tracked him down from some of the court cases. His name?

Jeff Payne: Yeah. So it's just a little kind of cool.

Darin Hayes[b]: Now, how how large is this? A, actually, is this like size of a coin? Or you know.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, it there it's I have it blown up here so you can see. I'd say it's about.

Jeff Payne: Oh, it's hard to tell on the screen. But yeah, like, you know how you

Jeff Payne: you put those coins in a machine and stretch them out. It's not that small. They're bigger than that.

Jeff Payne: but

Jeff Payne: you know they're probably

Jeff Payne: to inches long, one inch.

Jeff Payne: aye, maybe a little bigger than that nice size.

Darin Hayes[b]: And they're like pure silver. So, or is it just silver.

[b]Jeff Payne: I do not know what they're

Jeff Payne: well, there's a mark down there. I I don't know.

Jeff Payne: They call them silver passes. I do not know if they're actual silver or not

Jeff Payne: that yeah, that'd be hard.

Darin Hayes[b]: Pretty expensive token to be carrying to a football game. Say, okay, I'm here for my wanting to gate.

[b]Jeff Payne: But pretty expensive tickets to be,

Jeff Payne: you know, producing for your fans, too, you know.

Jeff Payne: There, these are hard to get, and they're hard to get, because when they do show up they go for some cash. And people, probably giants, fans really like these, and they do not show up. I've only seen like I said, a handful of them through the years.

Jeff Payne: and they're hard to get. I took or runs at them before I finally was able to get one.

Jeff Payne: I just think they're cool. It's like.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, that's really neat. I've never seen or heard of those before. That's really that is neat.

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: Yep, yeah, thank you for sharing that.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah.

Jeff Payne: So I think that's that's my stuff from the giants, early giants.

Jeff Payne: memorabilia. Wise. I I have later stuff some freedmen things and other things, of course, into the

Jeff Payne: s. But in terms of the first couple of years of the giants.

Darin Hayes[b]: Very very cool.

[b]Jeff Payne: Able to track down.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, those those are. I mean, that's great. I mean you. We've we've talked about some of these folks, but you you shared some different stories about them. Some, you know, we saw some different images of them from your collection. Learn some new things like the silver in the past that you had, and that's all great stuff in the match book. I've never seen seen that before. That's

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: that's some really neat stuff that they they used to make.

[b]Jeff Payne: Absolutely. Yeah. I love. I love trying to find images of pro players, you know, from the early days, because there weren't a lot of cards back. Then, you know, there weren't many card sets, so

Jeff Payne: you know, there's no tops. There's no bowman there. There's not none of that stuff out there. So you gotta kind of really dig

Jeff Payne: to find things, whether it's photos or match books or pins or

Jeff Payne: backs of programs, fronts of programs. There's just not that many images for a lot of these players, you know

Jeff Payne: it does in that era.

Darin Hayes[b]: It seems like advertisers love to use those their images, though, you know, like you had the mother's bread, and what was the matchbook of probably a cigarette company or something.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, I'm in diamond mash books. Yup.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, yeah.

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, real. Cool.

[b]Jeff Payne: And and I do have some. You know, when Grange came to New York City I know the story is, you know, one of the ways that mayor enticed

Jeff Payne: him and the bears and whatnot to come. Play that game was.

Jeff Payne: you know, he's like, Hey, you know, New York city advertising capital of the world. You can sign endorsement deals there, and and my my understanding is Grange and Pyle either came a day early or stayed a day later, and just basically set up in the hotel.

Jeff Payne: And we're like, just bring it whatever you want grains to endorse. You. Come and pitch it. We'll take the

Jeff Payne: the best deals, and apparently they they signed up a lot of endorsement deals. Well, they were in New York City.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah. I've already had.

[b]Jeff Payne: Hello! I heard.

Darin Hayes[b]: Andy bars. I think I've seen before.

[b]Jeff Payne: Shotwell. Yeah. The Shotwell candy bars which the movie came out of that the movie you know came out of that as well associated with the shot. Wells. I think that was actually a Kennedy production, right? Wasn't Joe Kennedy. I think Joe Kennedy produced the movie min

Jeff Payne: to play.

Jeff Payne: which was the the Grange movie. And

Jeff Payne: Shotwell was the sponsor for that movie. Because, you know, then they produce those great card sets

Jeff Payne: of Grange, the addbacks and the blank backs from the movie.

Jeff Payne: Yeah. So I I think I don't remember what I heard. Grange ended up with endorsement deal wise out of that New York City trip, but it was a lot.

Jeff Payne: He he raked it up, including the meatloaf story. I love the meatloaf. I've never seen anything with Grange's picture on a meatloaf before, so I kind of wonder how that all went down. But apparently that was one of the endorsement deals that.

Darin Hayes[b]: And what was it like.

[b]Jeff Payne: A meatloaf.

Darin Hayes[b]: And in the shape of his head, or.

[b]Jeff Payne: Don't know. I've never seen.

Darin Hayes[b]: Your meat loaf in it. You want your meat loaf to look like a football player. Here we go.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, I mean, the you know, Shotwell rappers are out there. The Shotwell cards are out there. There's movie placards. I have a big kind of broad board broad, you know, broadside advertisement for that movie hanging up in my my basement that I picked up somewhere. So you know a lot of those endorsement deals there's stuff out there to to grab. And I love. I love grabbing, you know, advertisement type stuff with football on it.

Jeff Payne: but I've never seen the meatloaf. I don't know what happened with that one, you know.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah, pro. Probably not any of them left. I'm probably got eaten or thrown away by now.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, I know. Right, you're gonna keep a meat loaf camp.

Darin Hayes[b]: I don't want to smell a hundred year old.

[b]Jeff Payne: That.

Darin Hayes[b]: I know.

[b]Jeff Payne: No, I have a couple of the Shotwell boxes

Jeff Payne: that the candy bars came in.

Darin Hayes[b]: Okay.

[b]Jeff Payne: As well. Yeah, those are floating around out there. You'll see them.

Darin Hayes[b]: They gotta be rare.

[b]Jeff Payne: They're pretty rare.

Jeff Payne: They're pretty rare. But they yeah. Once in a while one will pop up

Jeff Payne: ebay or at auction, or whatever more so than the rappers do the wrappers you never see.

Jeff Payne: They're really hard to find.

Jeff Payne: and there's different varieties. There's I think it's or different versions of the wrapper that are out there. I think I have or of them

Jeff Payne: never found them all

Jeff Payne: they're impossible to find. Always on the prow. One came up. Actually, I think it was on

Jeff Payne: ebay sometime in the last couple of months, but it was one I already had so.

Darin Hayes[b]: Who? Who would have thought when some kids eating a candy bar, and you know, tossing it away, that someday somebody would want that and have it as a piece of collection and pay big money, for that's, you know, something

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: one man's treasures, another man's trash, or however it goes.

[b]Jeff Payne: One cool thing that came out of that was, there's always been a debate about.

Jeff Payne: you know, which card is Red Grange's earliest card.

Jeff Payne: Is it the strip card that was produced? Is it the Shotwell sets that was produced? Is it the star player candy? Is it the Spalding Slash sports Company, America. All those were produced in the twenties at some point, obviously mid to late twenties.

Jeff Payne: but nobody knows for sure when those were actually produced.

Jeff Payne: and for a long time, you know, it was felt like

Jeff Payne: the star player candy which

Jeff Payne: one of the grading companies has. This One of them has this

Jeff Payne: it could be arranged, too, right? Nobody knows, because the problem is, the card says, you know, he's with Illinois on the card, so everybody's like, well, it ha! It can't be after

Jeff Payne:

Jeff Payne: but it wasn't uncommon, of course, back then, for

Jeff Payne: the makers of cards to put their college designations on players cards, because college was just so much more popular than the pros were.

Jeff Payne: And so I don't know if that necessarily means that cards from I know that some of the other players in the shot or in the star player candy set

Jeff Payne: a couple of the cards designate the player as captain, and that person wasn't captain until

Jeff Payne: for their team in college. So they at least went, they were at least produced until

Jeff Payne: And so, you know, one of the grading companies has is because of the Grange. Somebody else has a because some of the cards couldn't have been produced before then.

Jeff Payne: Who knows when? But there's always been this debate about when these cards were produced.

Jeff Payne: but one interesting thing is so. A lot of people say, well, the the star putter candy, because of the cards that are in there, you know. People tend to think maybe it was a little later, and they just put Grange is Illinois cause he was so well known for that.

Jeff Payne: But then you have the well, was it? When did the shot well, candy come out? Did it come out before the movie was produced because the movie came out in. I think it was the

Jeff Payne: fall of

Jeff Payne: was filmed during the summer.

Jeff Payne: If you heard that story like they need people in the stands, but it had to be cold. So they they paid people.

Jeff Payne: No, they even pay them. Ccp. I think, came up with the idea of. They told people they could come in and watch an exhibition of football if you wear a winter coat during the game, and it was in like La in the summer. And all these people showed up for free football, and they scrimmaged as part of this

Jeff Payne: this movie production. They got all these people to come for free and wear coats like it was cold out.

Darin Hayes[b]: In l-.

[b]Jeff Payne: Really

Jeff Payne: great idea. Right? So a lot of people are like, well, when did this come out? And and you know, could the Shotwells be the earliest but long story short, one of the wrappers I bought was taken it was removed from a scrapbook.

Jeff Payne: and on the back of the wrapper still attached

Jeff Payne: to the

Jeff Payne: to the the wrapper.

Jeff Payne: From the back side of the scrapbook was a piece of a box score from a baseball game.

Jeff Payne: Alright, and I was like, Okay.

Jeff Payne: I'm gonna figure out when this game was played.

Jeff Payne: Is this a game.

Jeff Payne: just a game.

Jeff Payne: What month, and then I'll be able to know at least right.

Jeff Payne: When did this? When was this candy bar purchased at least.

Jeff Payne: and I did track it down

Jeff Payne: through a lot of heavy lifting. It's actually a world. It was a world series game in So it was played in October of

Jeff Payne: so I at least know the candy bars, you know. You know. At least we're being produced during that timeframe.

Jeff Payne: You know, around October of which was right around when the movie came out. So they probably coincided.

Jeff Payne: You know, the relief.

Darin Hayes[b]: And it coincided with the the Afl

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: Yankees, red, green Yankees.

[b]Jeff Payne: Oh, yeah.

Darin Hayes[b]: Original, Afl.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yep.

Darin Hayes[b]: That's season.

[b]Jeff Payne: So yeah, that was kind of cool. So I kinda know when those were produced.

Jeff Payne: subsequently learned that you can tell based on some nuances of the strip cards that were produced.

Jeff Payne: which year they were produced, and the Grange one definitely was produced in So I kind of lean toward the

Jeff Payne: the Grange strip card.

Jeff Payne: black and white strip card that's out there that you see occasionally as being probably his oldest card.

Jeff Payne: but nobody's

Jeff Payne: certain on that.

Darin Hayes[b]: That's the fun part of collecting and like in history, when you have those controversies. And there's not really any answer that's definitive, that it makes for great debate and stories and and great listening for for people like myself and the listener. So that's cool stuff. It probably drives you crazy. But we, we love it.

[b]Jeff Payne: It's all. It's all good, you know. It's not life or death, right? I always say it's just. It's just collecting nothing to get worked up about. You know you have your opinion. I have mine. You have your facts. I have mine. We agree disagree, whatever. It's just a hobby. Just fun.

Jeff Payne: Yeah.

Darin Hayes[b]: So may maybe, with with that thought, let's segue in. You know you have run a a forum that has some some of the the best football minds and historians of our day. Because they mo many, most of them are collectors, and know, just like yourself, know a lot about the pieces they collect. So you know, when you're throwing down some some cash on some things, you want to have some back history on it. Once you share with folks that maybe they'd be interested in in joining, or, you know.

[b]Darin Hayes[b]: looking at some of the stuff, too, that's being shared on our collectors form.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah, sure. Yeah, thanks, Darren, yeah. So I run vintage football community.

Jeff Payne: It's a football only

Jeff Payne: community of I always say collectors and collectors, hobbyists, and researchers. Because

Jeff Payne: we have all sorts. You mentioned Chris Willis earlier, who's written a bunch of books. I love all his books on football

Jeff Payne: and he's a he's a member. He does some collecting, but he's more known for his research and his books and whatever. And

Jeff Payne: and if you're gonna

Jeff Payne: really understand some of these items and their context. You need people really know

Jeff Payne: football, you know Timothy Brown, who, you know, obviously, is another person that

Jeff Payne: sticks out to me as being somebody who just drills into subjects

Jeff Payne: and knows so much about so many things.

Jeff Payne: Then, having people like that around, you know. You know. I I the people on the on on our group always say not a week goes by that you don't see something in the hobby you've never seen before. It is so true true for me every week I'm like, Wow! I've never seen that before. I cannot believe that exists.

Jeff Payne: and you know it's great, because people will post something and say, Hey, I don't know what this is right. We have that one.

Jeff Payne: We've one thread that's the unsolved. We called unsolved mysteries.

Darin Hayes[b]: Has commented multiple times. That's his favourite thing.

[b]Jeff Payne: A.

Darin Hayes[b]: Loves, that when those come up and.

[b]Jeff Payne: And now gets.

Darin Hayes[b]: Digging. You know he loves that.

[b]Jeff Payne: Yeah. And there's lots of people that do a lot of digging right? I mean, they'll see something they'll be like, I I think I know where to look for this, and

Jeff Payne: within a couple of days often not always like some stuff you just you just can't find.

Jeff Payne: But people will dig in and find stuff and pop up

Jeff Payne: contacts for it.

Jeff Payne: You know what like. I was just doing some research on early black players pro players, and it reminded me that I had this photo of a you know, an all black team.

Jeff Payne: and the it had a banner, but it was really hard to read it, and I could not figure out what this team was, and finally I gave up and I posted it to.

Jeff Payne: You know. Vfc.

Jeff Payne: in that.

Jeff Payne: you know, in that channel, and within a day or

Jeff Payne: somebody had it right. They're like, Oh, this, that's here's what it is. And what what struck me was they mentioned in the article I was reading, that the first game

Jeff Payne: between

Jeff Payne: black teams, college teams, historically, Black Universities, was played between Biddle and Livingston University.

Darin Hayes[b]: Yeah.

[b]Jeff Payne: I think they were in North Carolina or somewhere in the South.

Jeff Payne: and

Jeff Payne: this is a photo not as old as that game.

Jeff Payne: Of Biddle.

Jeff Payne: they change their name so on the on the

Jeff Payne: the pennant that was really hard to read. It had their new, the new name of their college. But the ball

Jeff Payne: had Lc. For Livingston College, so they clearly had taken this after they'd beaten their arch rival, who they played the first game between historically black colleges.

Jeff Payne: you know. Here's a picture, you know. I think it was from the team. So.

Darin Hayes[b]: That's.

[b]Jeff Payne: You know, or so years after

Jeff Payne: the first time they played, but you know I was. I never would have known what that was if it wasn't for for vm.

Darin Hayes[b]: And see, and.

[b]Jeff Payne: We just, you know, it's also a place that collectors can share and

Jeff Payne: talk about stuff and enjoy each other people that appreciate your stuff right? You know I don't know about you, but most people I know they don't appreciate this stuff.

Darin Hayes[b]: No, yeah, right? It it.

[b]Jeff Payne: They they close up.

Darin Hayes[b]: So as so.

[b]Jeff Payne: Talking about. They start blazing over.

Darin Hayes[b]: Get in a group of football nerds like the Vfc. Is. That's that's our place, that with our safe place that we can all enjoy each other's company and collections, and the history so great. Great Forum, great place.

[b]Jeff Payne: Always looking for new members. It's free.

Jeff Payne: You know. Just drop me a line and

Jeff Payne: send it through, Darren. If anybody's interested. We're always looking for more people, the more the merrier you know, the more contacts, the more people showing different things. It's just a great place to enjoy the hobby kind of so.

Jeff Payne: and and we always do something. Anyone's going to the National this year.

Jeff Payne: You know, which is Mecca for me. I I went when it came to Baltimore, and like right around whenever it was in Baltimore, that was my first national. I was just getting back into the hobby.

Jeff Payne: and it was local. So I was like, I'll run up and I'll check this thing out. I've heard about, and I just fell in love with it. I've been there every year since other than obviously Covid year when they didn't have it.

Jeff Payne: And I've already said I'm gonna go there until they can't wheel me there anymore.

Jeff Payne: I just love it. And it's not even the content. There, I mean, you see, so much great stuff, but

Jeff Payne: it's just catching up with people and

Jeff Payne: seeing so many people and talking about so much stuff. And you know, it's just it's almost like a reunion at this point.

Jeff Payne: Anybody that's going to Cleveland this year definitely. Yeah, look me up. And if you're interested in VFC, let Darin know. I'd love to have you.

Darin Hayes[b]: Very cool, Jeff. We real, I mean, we appreciate you sharing these stories, the information you have. You're hoping to preserve the football history and and helping us celebrate this New York giants season as well. And we can't thank you enough. And appreciate your time.

[b]Jeff Payne: Thank you. Happy birthday giants. Fans.

Jeff Payne: It's a great, great accomplishment. A years.

Football history is woven with tales of legendary teams and iconic players. But tucked away in the archives of time lie lesser-known stories, waiting to be rediscovered. Today, we embark on a journey into the past with collector Jeff Payne, who has dedicated himself to preserving the legacy of a powerhouse few remember – the Pottsville Maroons.

The Maroons, hailing from Pennsylvania's coal country, were a dominant force in the early days of professional football. Their story, however, is one of triumph and controversy, marked by a championship victory later stripped due to a league dispute.

But for Jeff Payne, the Maroons' legacy transcends wins and losses. It's about a community rallying behind its team, about blue-collar athletes etching their names in gridiron history. Jeff, with his impressive collection of Pottsville Maroons memorabilia, will act as our guide.

Through Jeff's prized possessions – vintage jerseys, faded photographs, and maybe even a program from a pivotal game – we'll unveil the Pottsville Maroons' captivating story. We'll learn about their legendary players, their innovative strategies, and the cultural significance they held for their hometown.

So, join us as we delve into Jeff Payne's collection and rediscover the forgotten glory of the Pottsville Maroons. Prepare to be transported back to a bygone era of football, where passion burned bright and underdogs dared to challenge the status quo.

Sometimes, all that is left are the memories. SOme fanbases have experienced their teams pulling up shop and relocating to another city across the country. The NFL Cardinals fans know this all too well.

Fear not Redbirds! Joe Ziemba has not only collected the storied history of the franchise and its Windy City Days in his podcast and multiple books, he also has some hard and fast pieces of memorabilia to rekindle those Chocago Cardinals memories.

Historian Joe Ziemba Shares Stories of Some Pieces of his Chicago Cardinals Memorabilia Collection. The History comes to life when you see period pieces from when Chicago had two NFL teams.

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Looking at old memorbilia of your favorite team is cool and it rekindles memories of glory days and legendary players. The collectibles are treasures that preserve football history in such a magical and adictive manner.

In this episode, we talk with Vintage Football Collector Derek Crawford about his amazing Pittsburgh Professional Football Memorabilia collection that includes Steelers items from every season, including Art Rooney teams before the 1933 Pirates of the NFL.

Derek Crawford grew up in the Pittsburgh area and, like most other kids who grew up in the 1970s in Western Pennsylvania, was swept into the frenzy of Super Steelers Mania. Derek kept the passion for his team throughout his teenage years and beyond. At some point after some childhood, Topps Football Card collecting the bug for having memorabilia of the Pittsburgh area gridiron grew. At the time of this writing, Derek has an extensive collection that spans from some well-curated pigskin media of the 19th century, including some Harper's Weekly articles and graphics to modern-day bobbleheads, pennants, autographed footballs, and more. Derek collects the pieces, stories, and football history behind them.

Jeff Payne is a collector of football memorabilia, and he loves the history behind the items he gathers. A software executive with 30 years of experience by day, Jeff has the bug for gathering and preserving vintage football items. As an avid collector and custodian of the games' history, he even takes the time to write articles for Gridiron Greats Magazine and chat pigskin history with associates.

A few years back, Jeff founded the Vintage Football Community (VFC) which is a community of football card and memorabilia collectors who enjoy each others company and want to talk about the hobby in a relaxed, stress free environment. To learn more about the VFC contact Jeff at jefferyepayne@gmail.com if interested.

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Cleveland Browns fans, assemble! Today, we're taking a trip to paradise – Browns paradise, that is! We're heading into the man cave, the shrine, the Browns superfan sanctuary of Ray Prisby, a collector whose devotion to the orange and brown bleeds deeper than the Cuyahoga River!

Ray isn't just a Browns fan, he's a Browns historian with a collection that would make Paul Brown himself shed a tear of pride. We're talking signed jerseys, game-used artifacts, and enough Jim Brown memorabilia to make the carrier fumble.

But it's not all about the legends. Ray's got his finger on the pulse of the current team too, with jerseys, bobbleheads, and enough Browns swag to outfit an entire Dawg Pound!

So, whether you're a die-hard Browns backer or just appreciate a truly epic collection, this is a video you won't want to miss. Get ready to be amazed by Ray's Browns haven and hear the stories behind the treasures!

Collecting football memorabilia is an extremely fun and rewarding hobby. In this episode Ray Durbin1 of Row One Brand visits the Pigpen to share with us his unique collection of both ticket stubs and game day programs and the reason he collects them.

-Transcript of Ticket Stubs and Programs Collectibles with Ray Durbin

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskidispatch.com. We are in the Pigpen today, and we are here to talk about the hobbies, games, toys, and collections that are associated with the game of football. And we have a very interesting topic today. We have Ray Durbin. Do you remember him? We had him back on Memorial Day, talking about the salutes of the great football players who had military service and their military service. Unfortunately, they passed in their service, and we honored them on that day, Memorial Day, as we should. Today, Ray is going to talk about collections with football, and we'll bring them in right now. Ray Durbin, welcome back to the Pigpen.

Ray Durbin
Well, I'm glad to be back here.

Darin Hayes
Ray, you know, you have a very interesting story that you were sharing with me before we came on and recorded here, and you were telling me a little bit about how you got your passion for row one, which we'll talk about in a little bit what you folks do there, but maybe your childhood memory of a collection you had, how it got you sort of into the sports memorabilia.

Ray Durbin
When I was a kid, a common activity was going out and playing a little baseball during the summer, getting up, and gathering up a bunch of kids to play. And then, if we had a little sandlot game, we would swap baseball cards. And back in the mid-50s, I remember, you know, having Hank Aaron cards, Mickey Mantle cards, Stan Musial, all the, you know, stars at that particular point in time. And also, we'd have some, you know, players who are probably not too noted. One that sticks in my mind because we always used to laugh about it is at the back of a baseball card; they'd have noteworthy achievements from that particular player. And there's a guy, I'm trying to think of his name. It was something like Scooter Malpmus or some name like that, and his nickname was Scooter. And about all they could say about this guy was one day stole a base or somebody or some really mundane achievement they could put down for Scooter. But anyway, we would, you know, try to swap the cards, and maybe 250 Scooter cards would be worth maybe one Wally Moon card. But anyway, that was our common activity. Back then, we would keep all the baseball cards and little cigar boxes. So it wasn't intended that this is something you're going to keep forever, or that we couldn't visualize, you know when you're eight, nine, 10, 11 years old, you don't visualize something like that having tremendous value the way it would now. And I mean, I know for a fact that we had Mickey Mantle cards. And now I think I'm not Mickey Mantle card, the rookie card or early card, you know, selling up in millions of dollars, we would be happy to trade a Mickey Mantle card, you know, for maybe half a popsicle or something. I had

Darin Hayes
similar experiences when I was younger. I was a little bit younger than you, a little bit different decade. I can remember we'd take the football cards, baseball cards, and the teams we don't really like. And in Western Pennsylvania, back then, the Raiders were sort of the big enemy of the Steelers. And I can remember, I think it was like a Phil Villapiano football card. I said I'm going to make my bike sound really cool. I'm going to connect it to the steering mechanism of my bike. So it hits the spokes and sounds like a motorcycle. You know, I'm sure all kids do that. Well, the curse of the Raiders got me because I was driving, driving my bike. I was going all the place with this card in there and ended up taking a couple of spokes out, and my whole tire collapsed. And I went flying over, you know, ass over 10 cups over the handlebars into the street. And I'm like, those doggone Raiders, they got me again, you know?

Ray Durbin
Well, I know back in the early days of Raiders, and that maybe it's continued, they had kind of a reputation of being so much like he sure outlaws, and There was sort of the bane of Western civilization, and it for a while. So I didn't know they also had sabotaged old kids' bicycles.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, he got me good. He got me good.

Ray Durbin
At any rate, the story with baseball cards and little cigar boxes, I had an older brother, I had a younger brother, we all collected baseball cards, everything. And sometime in the early sixties, my mother thought that this was enough, and we hadn't done anything with him for years. So she wound up discarding a lot of these baseball cards. And while I was saying earlier, if I had been able to come up with some legal theory to sue her, I would have. At the time, no one knew these things were going to be, you know, the value they are now. An interesting thing about baseball cards, and you're talking about football cards too, is that we used to collect football cards. And I don't know what it was like when you're collecting, but in the early mid-fifties, on the back of a football card, they would have a diagram of a play. Oh, okay. It might be like they'd have the lineups, and they'd have an offensive scheme and a defensive scheme. We're trying to work through that. You get over there, and you run this way and that way.

Darin Hayes is
running the X's and O's in the backyard. Exactly.

Ray Durbin
that was on the back of the card set. Wow, that's interesting. We always used to focus on the quarterback sneak because that was the easiest concept for us to understand.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's just one player in a straight line, right? In A -gaps.

Ray Durbin
But, but anyway, that that's, you know, I think a lot of kids go through that collecting baseball cards, and then it was popular for a while. I know in the late '70s and early '80s, a lot of people were collecting baseball cards again; my son probably taught me to spin and go anywhere to maybe have my retirement savings on baseball cards. But they still didn't have the value that some of these older cards did. The thing about, you know, baseball cards versus tickets, or any kind of sports card versus tickets, those are created with the idea in mind, you're going to collect them, you know, a baseball card, a football card, a basketball card. The idea is that that's something that's collectible, and they're intended, of course, you may get a lousy stick of bubble gum or something with it, but they're actually intended to keep and collect.

Darin Hayes
Ray, I just have a question for you. I know how the bubblegum tasted in the 70s in the baseball cards and football cards. It wasn't very good. Actually, I think maybe the cards tasted better than the gum. How was it back in the late 50s and 60s when you were collecting?

Ray Durbin
I think it was about the same. A lot of times, the bubblegum, of course, back then, the cards just came in a wax paper wrapper. So, a lot of times, bubblegum was pretty stale. And you're right; sometimes, it is hard to tell. They've come in like little squares about the size of a sports card, you know, a piece of bubblegum like that. And they were generally pretty stale.

Darin Hayes
They were consistent on the cards; they got more consistent through the years.

Ray Durbin
control. But anyway, you know, some of the difference between collecting tickets and scorecards and programs versus baseball cards, that sort of thing, or football cards, is the cards are intended to be collectible. When you go back to the 20s and even earlier 1910s, we have a couple of tickets from the 1800s. Wow. Those were not generally intended to be a collectible. They were to get into the game and be admitted to the game, and then people would stuff them in their pockets. They would, you know, get sweaty if it was hot. They would spill cokes on them, get mustard on them, all that kind of stuff. Very few people actually hung onto those. And if they did, they'd be tucked away in a scrapbook someplace. One main difference between collecting tickets and scorecards is that they weren't intended at the time they were created to be collectibles. They were basically intended to get you into the game or the sporting event, and you also have information about the players, the teams, and that sort of thing. So I think that's the main difference between collection and, you know, documentation of a historical event. Now, there are more people collecting tickets, and some of these things, particularly, I know, are sort of counterintuitive. But during the pandemic, a lot of people went back and started even making more of a demand for sports cards because there wasn't that much to do. They're more interested in going back and revisiting their old collection of sports cards. And the same thing with tickets. Tickets people started getting interested in collecting tickets, everything, because they had a lot of time on their hands, and at least there for a while, disposable income. And it was an interesting hobby, something to do. Now, the other thing about tickets, well, it's just like baseball cards. I think a lot of baseball cards or football cards or anything like that are focused on the individual. In other words, you can always go back in and try to collect the New York Yankee personnel, but it's sort of individual player-oriented. You collect Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, and Al Kaline for the Tigers, and Bill Mazeroski, I think, played on the Pirates. It's sort of oriented toward the individual player. Tickets can be sorted, organized, and rearranged in a lot of different ways. For example, someone might want to focus on their favorite team. For example, if your favorite team is a Pittsburgh Steelers or Pittsburgh Panthers or Penn State or whatever your favorite team is, you can focus on trying to collect for that team. That's one way of doing it. Other people like to collect by conferences and in college, such as Southeastern Conference or Big Ten. Again, getting back to the team thing, if you're talking about college or maybe people focusing on the University of Michigan Wolverines, like the Ohio State Buckeyes, Texas Longhorns, whatever. They can have the team. Normally, on these tickets, you don't focus on an individual player, except you might say, well, Bobby Lane played in this game for the Lions, or Bobby Lane played in this game for the Steelers, or something like that. But a ticket generally doesn't feature a particular player, if that makes any sense. So the tickets, you can focus in on so many different aspects of if you're collecting to collect them. You might try to get your favorite team, as I understand, the Oakland Raiders. Where were they located now? Los Angeles, or where the heck are the Raiders? Las Vegas now. Las Vegas. So, you know, you can focus on the team. You can focus on the vent if you want, Super Bowl. Same in baseball. If you're looking at tickets, you can focus on the World Series. You can focus on all-star games. Focus on a significant event like the game where Hank Aaron hit the broke, tied, no broke Ruth's record. And I remember what that was. It was 515 or whatever his record was. I remember watching that on Publish as I washed my car and told my wife to call me in when he was up and back. So that was, I want to say it was in April 74. So, I mean, when you're looking at tickets or scorecards or anything like that, you can focus on the event, a particular event, a conference, a team, or the World Series Super Bowl. We have a lot of Pro Bowl tickets, some Super Bowl tickets, just a wide variety of items. So, you can narrow it down if you want to. If you're a collector of tickets or scorecards, something like that, you can narrow it down if you want to. We have, in the nature of row one, what we do; we approach it from the standpoint that we want tickets that have some historical significance. We also look at the graphics, the artwork on the ticket, as we were talking about before, you know, if it's something like, admit one, even that can be interesting because even these ticket stubs that are really kind of plain, they'll have the date on it, they'll have the price, they'll have the location, the teams that are playing off, and so even those can be real, interesting from a historical standpoint. So it's all in the eye of the beholder, I guess, what kind of graphics they like or what kind of historical information they have.

Darin Hayes
No, Ray, in the case of collecting ticket stubs or scorecards or the smaller items like that, how do folks display their collection? Is it like in a book? Do they put it up on a wall somehow? What's a common way to?

Ray Durbin
I, you know, I don't display the tickets as such because we enlarge them. But I know for a fact a lot of people will have them. They'll put them in an acrylic or hard plastic container. Other ones will get a little easel and put it on there. For example, if they have a desk in our office or something, I want to put it up. I'll put it in a case of some type and maybe put a little easel. Not too many people are going to hang a little thick it up on a wall, but anything is possible.

Darin Hayes
If they want to hang it, if that ticket means a lot, and they want to hang it on the wall, they can go to row one and buy a big lithograph of it to hang on the wall, right? Exactly.

Ray Durbin
some of our items have blown up. I mean, it's unlimited. It'd be an entire wall, but you know, some of the canvases and everything go up to 60 inches wide by whatever. So they're really pretty striking when you enlarge these tickets. And when you look at them, they have some really, really interesting artwork and graphics. So, you know, we look at it from a lot of different ways, a lot of different perspectives, and we try to have something for everyone. For example, we have a lot of Ohio State and Michigan games because that's a big rivalry. One way you can group these, we're talking about teams, conferences, that sort of stuff. Another way is rivalry games. And so we have a lot of Ohio State, Michigan, as well as just Michigan tickets and Ohio State tickets. We have a lot of Michigan and Ohio State rivalry games. We have, you know, other rivalries, California and Stanford. We have a lot of their tickets where they're playing each other, Oklahoma and Texas. In fact, we acquired one today, which is significant to me. It's the first OU-Texas game I went to in person. It was in 1963. So now they're getting back to why people collect these tickets. A big part of it is that it brings back an emotional experience they've had, a game experience that can relive it. It brings back memories. And I was looking at this ticket, and I remember that particularly because a whole group of us were driving down from Norman to Dallas for that game. And I was telling this story about a roommate who had sold Bibles that previous summer. So he had a gift for Gav. I mean, he was really, and as we're leaving town, we're driving out of Norman, we got pulled over by a policeman. So Joe hopped out of the car and ran up to the policeman. That was before, you know, the Taser you were shooting. He went up to that officer, got a car, ran up to his car so the officer didn't have to move or anything, and got his license for him. And then he wound up thinking, I didn't hear it, but he told us what had happened. He wound up thinking the officer was stopping. He said, you know, I'm a student at OU; I'm going down to the beginning with Texas, and I got a little excited. And I'm really, really happy that you stopped me. If you hadn't stopped me right now, I may have been speeding later on, and I could have heard someone. So, the cop wound up not giving him a ticket. Instead, he also pointed out where the speed traps were between Norman and Dallas. He said, now you want to watch it here; you got to be careful here. So I'm just saying that that's an experience I had. And so I was particularly happy to get that 1963 Texas-OU. So that acquisition

Darin Hayes
You got in 2021, and it takes you to have a memory back, and it was your buddy in the car. That's awesome.

Ray Durbin
And we have another; I have a ticket for the first game I ever went to, the Oklahoma game. I was Oklahoma Clemson. I already had that ticket. So you can go through anyone who is a college graduate or attended college or family, or maybe it's just someone who's always followed a particular team. Obviously, a team like Penn State has a lot of followers who didn't even attend Penn State, such as fans. So all these tickets, you get these old tickets, and they either relate to them because you saw the game on TV or you saw it in person or you attended college, and maybe the first bad hangover you had was the night before or whatever. And so it brings back a lot of memories. It's not nostalgic and all that kind of stuff. With that last comment,

Darin Hayes
you're bringing back a lot of my college days now.

Ray Durbin
I remember a ticket. I'm not going to bore you going over all these with some of my favorite tickets. I have a list and they we've already talked about some of them. We have the it's not actually the Super Bowl, but the first NFL championship game with the FC Green Bay and I think Kansas City Chiefs. We have that ticket. Wow. Have the first championship game. Yes, it's a football league game.

Darin Hayes
OK.

Ray Durbin
I have that one; there are just a lot of Pro Bowl games and different pro tickets.

Darin Hayes
What's the oldest ticket stub that you have in your collection?

Ray Durbin
uh, we have an 1876. It's actually a program, uh, but it looks sure I could take it that it's a program uh with Harvard and Yale, and what's interesting about that particular game, uh, I'm trying to think Harvard was undefeated, of course, yeah it was their second meeting a couple of things because I had talked about this before um 1876 teddy roosevelt was an uh freshman at Harvard so he was attending the game there's a guy by the name of Walter camp he uh was on uh yale and if I've told you this story before I really apologize

Darin Hayes
No, you, well, you did. We talked about this before, because I saw that one. And I knew the significance of the game, you know, making football history. And that was I purchased that cup that has that on there. I drink out of that, you know, a couple of times a week. So I love that one. That's a great one.

Ray Durbin
And, you know, the story is that Walter Camp was a freshman on the Yale team and the captain of the Harvard team; I think I have this story, right? Saw this guy only weighed 150 pounds. He said, you're not going to let him play, are you? He looks like a baby. He'll get hurt. I always liked that story because, you know, he went on to be instrumental in developing American football rules and everything. But some of the other tips you asked about are the oldest ones, a ticket, and a couple of really cool ones. One is an 1893 pin versus Princeton. Wow. University of Pennsylvania versus Princeton. That's a really good ticket. Those are kind of ornate. They're really fancy and elaborate things. Another early ticket that I like a lot, one of my favorites, is an 1896 Cincinnati versus Carlisle Indians. Oh, my goodness. Carlisle school, you know. And I think some of the language is really funny. It's like, you know, see Wild West Indians; they're really playing it up, and the graphics are pretty good there. Then, some of the earlier tickets are from 1907, Princeton, Yale, 1909, you know, Harvard, 1910, Dartmouth versus Harvard. Those were big.

Darin Hayes
games in that era. Those are organic games in the season.

Ray Durbin
And a lot of times, the teams would be undefeated or one way and go on and claim the national championship.

Darin Hayes
That's your Ohio State, Michigan and your LSU, Alabama games of this era. That's Yale, Harvard.

Ray Durbin
Exactly. There is Nate, a really pretty ticket. I'd like a ticket if it's. Yeah, I have it here. It's a 1923 Navy Penn State ticket. I like all these old tickets because you look at them and they have football and two different words. So it says, you know, see Navy Penn State College football. They have F -O -T -T in the space B -A -L -L. And a lot of the old tickets have it, you know, two separate words. But I like that ticket because it's just an attractive ticket and they have a little football shape on it and they show an actual photo of some action, you know, from 1922 or thereabout.

Darin Hayes
Before we go any further on your description, maybe the listeners can see the photos of these tickets because you have them in your artwork on row one. Maybe you could tell us where to look so maybe they could go to there while they're listening to this. Yeah.

Ray Durbin
that would be great. In fact, I have about two tablets and a cell phone here, too. They just want to look up and type in row one brand, all one word, row one brand.

Darin Hayes
W -O -N -E brand.

Ray Durbin
right .com, and they'll be able to pull that website up, and then as you scroll down, you'll come to a place where it says to go to the gallery, and there are currently about 6100 items on there of images, so they're not all tickets a large number tickets, but there's also scorecards and remixed artwork things like that, but that's a good way to do it, and also if you have a favorite team like Notre Dame or Penn State or Alabama or whatever up at the top of that when you go to a pictorum you should get on the pictorum gallery when you go to that there's a search box up top, and you just type in your favorite team it should pull up depending on the team it might pull up I just checked earlier baseball pulled up about 12 pages of different artwork on that I go to a team like Michigan or Notre Dame you'll pull up a lot of artwork old tickets and

Darin Hayes
Uh, and let me just give the listeners a real quick tip. If you happen to be on the Pigskin Dispatch site, we have an ad on the front page for row one; you can click on that. It takes you to the sports history network link. Also, if you're on sports history, network .com, click on the row. One link, it'll take you through there. And when in the pictorium gallery, uh, that Ray is talking about, uh, he's offered a special code for a sports history network listeners, she 15, get a 15% discount in the pictorial gallery. So, uh, take note of that and take advantage of it.

Ray Durbin
Yeah, that's a great point. That's a really good point. So, you know, there's just a lot of football tickets. We're talking about rivalries, Army Navy, and those are really interesting. We talked about Ohio State, Michigan, Southern California, Stanford, Alabama, Auburn, Oklahoma, Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, and just any college rivalry you can think of. Plug it in, and see what you come up with. You might just have to go to one team or the other. Like, if you go to Army, you're going to pick up all the Army Navy tickets. You can try it now, and you can try the Army and Navy, too. But it's just fantastic artwork, in my opinion. And when you blow this stuff up, it makes really a unique piece of art. It's a historical, significant, interesting conversation piece.

Darin Hayes
It's so neat what you do on row one. You show different views of the ticket, but one of the images that you can click on of that ticket is to show it what it looks like hanging on your wall, and that's really cool. It really brings it to life, and before you buy it, it shows you, hey, that would look great in my living room or my den or something. That's a great feature that you have, too, so make sure you folks out there take advantage of that, too.

Ray Durbin
Yeah, I appreciate it. I'm pictorial, too. I'm, I'm glad you brought that. The other thing about that is that you can get these in various mediums, like, uh, you can get them printed on wood, which looks good. Uh, uh, metal signs. If, if you're, you know, have a game room or something and your crowd control, it's not quite up to par. You might want to get a metal sign. I'm kidding. Uh, so you don't have the cameras destroyed or anything, but there are all sorts of me a good medium chair, acrylic, wood, uh, canvas, paper, prints, it can be framed by us, all that kind of stuff. Do they? I would just end by saying we have a lot of different sports, uh, baseball, basketball, football, soccer, boxing, race car, any 500 tickets, Kentucky Derby tickets. There's a wide variety of sports. And we're, we're adding things daily. We're getting there, but we have a lot more items to add to the website.

Darin Hayes
Now, you mentioned a little bit earlier that during Covid and during the pandemic, there seemed to be a lot more people that started collecting again, you know, maybe having that extra time and they're scouring through the internet and say, hey, you know, I used to collect baseball cards or ticket stuff when I was younger. Now, did it drive the prices up for collectors because of the supply and demand type of thing, or did it help the collector?

Ray Durbin
You know, I can't answer that. I would suspect it would. But I've heard that in terms of the baseball tickets or baseball cards. I have come up a little bit. And my understanding is the same with the football tickets and programs and everything. A lot of our acquisitions were done prior to a couple of years ago. So.

Darin Hayes
OK.

Ray Durbin
uh you know at this point in time we're in the stage where hey if we see something unique uh that we're interested in and from a selfish standpoint you know we're talking about that 53 not 53 63 uh texas oklahoma ticket had a special emotional appeal to me uh so yeah we're in a daily basis but uh there for a while i mean you know it's just like uh had a special mail truck delivery where we're getting a lot of items in a couple years ago so i think the prices have gone up again we i'm i'm in a mode uh row one is in the mode and we're acquiring this we're not trying to resell them at this point in time uh different people have different approaches some people will buy something and then try to turn it sell it turn it whatever you want language i use we acquire the items from the standpoint of the uh how we think people will react to it from an emotional standpoint an artistic standpoint it's an interesting historical event but we're looking at from the from the standpoint of the image how how good a work of art will that make uh and the other thing we hadn't talked about we we also put these on other products uh i mean they're they look great on uh t -shirts and mugs uh shower curtains towels i i think one of the best items is is a beach towel or even a bath towel because uh uh the shape of a towel is almost like a a ticket

Darin Hayes
Right. I didn't even think of that.

Ray Durbin
and curtains and always just make really, really good designs if you're a sports fan or sports fanatic. Or if you like to take showers or baths.

Darin Hayes
Get it back. But we hope that our listeners like that. So

Ray Durbin
But there are a lot of good products out there, and they're interesting. I just like them from an aesthetic and a historical standpoint.

Darin Hayes
Okay, now, aside from I know you told us a feeling about the 63 OU Texas stub that you have of all your collection of program covers and ticket stubs. Let's just take that one, that latest acquisition, out of the mix here. What is your personal favorite, and maybe tell us why?

Ray Durbin
Well, it's tough. I guess. That's like telling you which was your fault.

Darin Hayes
favorite child, right? Exactly.

Ray Durbin
Exactly. I guess just from a, I fluctuate, here's another again, another thing, I look at these, and if I haven't looked at a particular ticket in a while, I'm like, wow, I always like that. You go to the head of the class. But I guess right now, while you're asking me, I think the ticket I really like is that 1896 Cincinnati Carlisle Indian ticket. It's so unique. The other ticket, from a personal selfish standpoint, is a good 1969 University of Michigan, Missouri ticket. And it's real free graphics. It shows the stadium, and I think, uh, uh, pennants with, uh, I believe, uh, Michigan, Missouri are on it. And, uh, Michigan needs that same theme for the home game. Show it the whole, whole year. They also have a ticket like that, a 69 Ohio State, Michigan ticket. But I liked the Missouri, Michigan ticket because a good friend of mine and his date, as well as my wife and I, went to that game, the Michigan, Missouri game. It was a beautiful day, a fall day, real nice weather. Uh, and we scrunched up in Ann Arbor's, you know, stadium. Uh, so I always remember that game, like it just happened, uh, yesterday, uh, another game. It's not all that aesthetic, but it's one of these tickets that has a lot of value. Uh, and it is a unique 1969 Texas OU ticket. That means a lot to me because this same friend of mine that we went to that game, you know, with Chris, my wife, and his date, uh, a few weeks later, he was getting ready to go into the Navy. I was going to be going into the Army at the end of October, and we decided on a lark. I think it will probably be a Wednesday or so. We found out that my older brother had a couple of tickets to the OU-Texas game. So we drove down from Detroit to Norman, picked up the tickets, and then headed back out, and then drove back. How old is that?

Darin Hayes
That's going to be quite a.

Ray Durbin
Oh, let me see. It's, well, we broke it up. We, uh, we drove straight through from Detroit to Norman. And at that time, I'm going to guess just about 21 hours a day, or, and then, it's about another six hours that I'll bet. It was, uh, it was a hike, but, uh, it was fun. It's well worth it. So those two tickets have a lot of meaning to me. Um, I guess that's not it. And my favorite, favorite tickets. I mean, there's a lot, though. Every time you look at it, really.

Darin Hayes
Right. Well, Ray, I appreciate you coming on today and sharing your collection and your passion with us. And again, folks, we have the row one links in our show notes. You can also find them on sports history, network .com, and pigskindispatch.com. Make sure you check out Ray's collection on row one and share that art with us. And I can hang it on your wall, drink your coffee out of it, and dry it off when you get out of the shower with it. There are many things you can do: put it on your car keys. So make sure you check those out. And, Ray, once again, thank you very much for joining us and telling us about this great collection.

Ray Durbin
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.