Football Daily

We always love to hear a good gridiron tale or two, and it is such an honor to have the well-known author and Historian Timothy P. Brown join us weekly to tell us about different aspects of football history.

Timothy Brown's FootballArchaeology.com is a website dedicated to preserving pigskin history. digs into gridiron history to examine how football’s evolution shapes today's game. The site has a variety of articles, history of football word origins, and Daily Tidbits, which have a daily football factoid that shares some quite exciting items and aspects of the gridiron in a short read. They preserve football history in a very unique way. Visit the site at Today's Tidbits.

Tim Brown, one of the foremost experts on early college and pro football, is the host and founder of FootballArchaeology.com. Tim's love of the gridiron's past goes beyond just the website. Mr Brown, to date, is the author of three books on football history, appears on various football history podcasts, and has been quoted in articles by The Athletic, The Chicago Tribune, and other publications. He guest authors articles on UniWatch, and his research on the 1920s West Point Cavalry Detachment teams contributed to All American: The Power of Sports, currently on display at the National Archives Museum in Washington, D.C.

His books include Fields of Friendly Strife, How Football Became Football: 150 Years of the Game's Evolution, and Hut! Hut! Hike! A History of Football Terminology explores the history of football’s words and expressions and how they became connected to the game.

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The story of how the word "Visitors" and or "guests" first appeared on scoreboards from FootballArchaeology.com.

A walk into any American football stadium reveals a familiar sight: towering scoreboards displaying team names, scores, and the enigmatic word "VISITORS" beside one of them. But have you ever wondered how this seemingly mundane term became an ingrained part of the gridiron lexicon? Surprisingly, its origins hold a fascinating window into the evolution of American football and the shifting dynamics of competition.

Here the story is told best Visitors on the Scoreboard Football Archaeology Tidbit.

Dr. Tony Collins Is one of the most revered experts and historians in the disciplines of football globally, especially in the different types of Rugby Football. We had the honor of having a discussion with Tony along with one of America's foremost experts on the early origins of our brand of football in North America, Timoty P. Brown of Football Archaeology. Tony sheds light on so many items in the relationship and shared history of these football games and what each has given to the other.

Transcript of the Discussion between Tony Collins, Timothy Brown, and Darin Hayes

Darin Hayes
Welcome to a special edition of The Pigpen, where we will discuss the great history of football, not just American football. We'll go back much further than that. To help me along the way, we've got a couple of guests. I think possibly this first one—we can't even give them the title of guests anymore—Timothy P. Brown of Football Archaeology.com. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Timothy Brown
Thanks, Darin. Glad to be back here and especially looking forward to this conversation.

Darin Hayes
Tim, you approached me a few weeks ago and said you had contact with someone very special, an expert in football history who is slightly different from what we normally talk about. Maybe you could give us a brief synopsis of that.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, so, you know, as if, you know, those who read my blog regularly know that I've been doing a series on the original rules of football. So, from 1876, the original rules of gridiron football. And in doing that, you know, football was Rugby at that point. And so, I am trying to get a better understanding of Rugby. I had been doing additional research and came across Tony Collins, now Professor emeritus, in the UK at a university. He's, you know, Tony, you'll be able to tell us otherwise, but I think you're kind of the foremost authority globally on the origins of these various games we call football. And so anyways, because I'd come across some of this information, we eventually, you know, I eventually, or we kind of reached out to each other connected and had a conversation and just thought it'd be great to have Tony on here with you and let your guests kind of get a different flavor of the games that we love across the world.

Darin Hayes
The listeners, we are in for a real treat today because, as Tim said, Tony is an expert, but just listen to his bio line. Now, he is from the UK. He's a social historian specializing in the history of sports. Professor Collins is well-accredited as a Meritus Professor of History at De Montfort University, a research fellow at the Institute of Sports Humanities, and, in 2018, a visiting professor at Beijing Sports University. In 2020, Dr. Collins had his works come out and do some great things. In 1999, he had his first book, Rugby's Great Split, which won the Aberdare Prize for Sports History Book of the Year. He followed that up with some other prestigious books that won that same prestigious award: A Rugby League in the 20th Century Britain in 2007, A Social History of English Rugby Union in 2010, The Oval World, A Global History of Rugby in 2016, and A Social History of English Rugby Union was also the winner of the 2015 World in Union Award for the Best Academic Book on Rugby Union. To his credit, his other works are Sport and Capitalist Society in 2013 and How Football Began, How the World's Football Codes Were Born 2018. Tony Collins, welcome to the Big Ben.

Dr. Tony Collins
Well, thanks for having me on. It's an honor to be here. I only hope I can live up to your billing, which is fantastic. So, thanks very much. I am also listening to the podcast and an avid reader of Tim's blog, so it's great to be here.

Darin Hayes
Well, I think we both speak for Tim. We both thank you for that. It's quite an honor to have you on here and to have you look at some of our work, too. So Tony, maybe you could just give us a real brief. You know, we saw all your accreditations in your books. How did you get to this point where you were such an expert on Rugby?

Dr. Tony Collins
Well, I guess, like most people, this has two aspects. So I was born, bred, and raised in a northern England port city called Hull, one of the few cities in the north of England where the major sport is rugby league football, which was the breakaway from rugby union. So, I kind of grew up involved in the culture and the heritage of rugby league from a very early age. I think possibly you guys as well. My father took me to matches; his father took him. So there's a long tradition there. So I was very interested in why this was so important to us. But also, when I went to university, one of the things that interested me very much was the social history of Britain and the world in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. And that's precisely when all the different football codes started and became popular. So, I've been very lucky that I've been able to combine my interest in sports alongside a kind of scholarly academic interest in social history. I've kind of been lucky to be able to combine those two things.

Darin Hayes
Did you play the game when you were younger?

Dr. Tony Collins
well, very badly, which is why I became a historian. Yeah, but I'd say sports on the field was never. I discovered it very quickly, and it was not my strong point, so I guess sports off the field became a substitute for that. But no, I mean, I'm also involved in the heritage of Ruby Lakes. I've worked a lot with the Ruby League authorities and clubs on the heritage of game-organizing exhibitions and things like that. So I'm still involved in the sport's everyday life.

Darin Hayes
Okay. Now, I think I'm going to represent in this conversation. I'm unsure if Tim and I can be an equal representation, but we are the common American lovers of football and football history. And to tell you the truth, I know very little about the rugby game. I've seen a few games played. I don't know that I understand it. Uh, I'm not sure I, you know, I know a brief history of it. And so, as a representative of my fellow, common or here in America, not knowing the sport, maybe you could just give us a brief history of Rugby.

Dr. Tony Collins
Well, like all the different games that became modern football games, its roots are in this kind of pre-industrial society before people lived in towns and working factories and lived on the land. Many football-style games were played where the ball was kicked past and thrown to reach a goal, which is the basis of all the football games we know today. Rugby itself emerged, as the name implies, from an elite private school in the English Midlands, Rugby School in the town of Rugby. And it's... Rugby schools in the 1820s, 30s, and 40s became a kind of flagship of the British elite private school system. And one of the things that made it that was the importance that it placed on sport, both football in the winter and cricket in... It was another sport we won't get time to get into, which we won't get into now. In, you know, cricket was the summer game, Rugby was that Rugby and football was the winter game. One of the interesting things that happened was that it gave Rugby a massive advantage over the other football games played at other elite schools. So, all the elite English schools had their version of football. Some listeners may have heard of places and elite institutions like Eaton and Harrow. They also had their versions of football. But Rugby became popular beyond its school because of the popularity of a book called Tom Brown School Days, which you may have heard of. It came out in 1857 and was a massive, massive bestseller. A kind of the equivalent of Harry Potter, but without the magic. A football match played under rugby rules was at the core of Tom Brown School Days. And the popularity of the book meant that you know, people, not just in Britain, but people in the English-speaking world, decided that, you know, rugby football was an important part of a young man's education. So the game had a kind of moral importance, not just a... It wasn't just a recreation or an entertainment. So I had this moral, educative importance. And that meant that other schools took it up and also that, you know, people in the general public read the book and wanted to play the game. And, you know, that's also the case in the States. I mean, Tom Brown's School Days sold something like a quarter of a million copies in the States, and perhaps most famously, Teddy Roosevelt said that this is one of two books that every red-blooded American boy should read. So the game became popular on the back of Tom Brown School Days. And that led to the basis for its spread around the English-speaking world.

Darin Hayes
Okay, that clears it up, and that's probably, like you say, how it came across the pond here and over to the States. Now, Tim, I know you have a series of questions that you'd like to talk to and ask Tony about, you know, taking it up from that point where Rugby is in the States and, you know, sort of the transformation into what we know is the game of American football.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, and I guess I'd like to back it up just a bit because that is one thing I think about. So I've read, you know, Tony's book, how football began. And for me, the fascinating thing about it is that there was a stew of different folk games that, over time, some of them became more formalized, like Rugby, you know, developed established rules in the association game. So, just wondering if, you know, Tony, if you could talk a little bit about kind of what that looked like in England, this, you know, mishmash or stew of games, and then how it starts diverting or diverging into some of the different football codes that we know today.

Dr. Tony Collins
Sure, yeah. Well, there are two aspects to it. First, as I've just mentioned, the elite private schools in England each had their code of football rules, but there were also regional variations. So there were games of football played with widely varying rules, most of which resemble Rugby in the handling as well, and kicking of the ball was allowed. But it wasn't until the early 1860s when groups of young, well-to-do professional men who had left private school decided to continue playing football as adults and started to form their clothes. Still, one of their problems was that they'd all been to different schools, and they couldn't play; they didn't have a common set of rules by which to play the game. So they'd have this very unacceptable situation where the home team always played under its rules whenever a match was played, which meant that the home team won every time. So it's not very interesting for the players. So, in 1863, a meeting was called in London to try and form an organization that would come up with one set of rules that would unite all the different football clubs and schools to play the game under one set of rules, which led to the formation of the Football Association. However, it wasn't successful, and there was lots of infighting, politicking, and rivalry. The Football Association was founded in 1863, but several clubs were involved in the discussions which preferred a more handling code of football and left the Football Association eventually, in 1871, they formed the Rugby Football Union, which was the game that organized the clubs who based their rules on the rules of rugby school. So, those two organizations really set the agenda for the consolidation and codification of the two different sets of rules. One of the big things that helped soccer under the Football Association was the fact that the Football Association started a national knockout cup competition in 1871, the FA Cup, which soon became very popular and had great prestige. That meant that if you wanted to enter the cup and stand a chance of winning, you had to understand their rules and play them to a high standard. So, that started a differentiation between the two codes, meaning that clubs had to pick one side. You couldn't play both codes and expect to be successful in them. So, the consolidation of both codes was based on the need for competition with other clubs on a serious and well-regulated basis.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, interesting. So while that was going on in the UK, over here on the western side of the water, both in Canada and the US, the same kind of situation, elite young men were playing local codes. But then they started adopting both soccer rules and rugby rules. My understanding is that I probably get most listeners to know that we picked up Rugby through McGill University. And I think the first rugby game in Canada was British soldiers stationed there, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, that's right. I think in the 1860s, perhaps, but clubs were certainly being formed in Canada in the 1860s. Canada had a much closer link at that point. It's still part of the British Empire with the British. So, more football information flowed between the two countries than might have been between the States and Britain.

Timothy Brown
Yeah. And then, so then we end up with a, you know, kind of a mirror situation where we've got local, you know, basically to play one another, you know, you had to come up with a common set of rules because we face the same situation, whoever made up the rules won the game, you know, you know, so for us, it ends up that, you know, football emerges, you know, at the time. So, you know, this is kind of similar or taking off of what Darren said, where, you know, most Americans think of, of Rugby, the way it's played today, you know, not the way it was played in the 1870s. And so, can you describe how, maybe, association, football or soccer, and Rugby, those two games were played compared to your understanding of American football in the 18th, as American football started breaking away? What were those games like?

Dr. Tony Collins
Well, by the time we get to do it with soccer first, I think it's the easiest. By the time we get to the mid-1870s, soccer is not too different from today's. The rules have been consolidated. In the early years of soccer, incidentally, outfield players could catch the ball and knock it down with their hands. At one point in the mid-1860s, there was a provision in the rules to allow the scoring of rouges and touchdowns, allowing people to attempt to score a goal. So, the idea is that soccer has always been a game that's being played with the feet. It's not it's not quite right. But certainly, by the time you get to the 1870s, it's 11 11 players; no outfield player could touch the ball with their hands. Only the goalie could touch the ball with their hands. So it didn't change much of the well between then and now. However, Rugby was very different from what you see today in rugby union or rugby league. Firstly, the teams were 20 aside. This differs from today's 15, aside from rugby union, and 13, aside from rugby league. Of those 20 players, 15 were forwards, and the game was essentially a succession of scrums. And a couple of interesting things, I think, from the point of view of the links with football. Firstly, how the game was organized differed from how it was organized when a play was tackled. So before 1878, when a play was tackled, and his forward motion was stopped, he wrapped to his feet and waited for the other forwards in the scrum to gather around him. Then, he would place the ball on the ground and shout down, and each side would attempt to kick the ball through the other side. And I think the fact the player had to shout down when the ball was in play is the origin of football's system of downs. So that's quite interesting. The other very different thing is when you see a rugby game today, and the ball is put into the scrum, the ball always emerges at the back of the out of the back of the scrum. The idea is for the falls to heal the ball backward so it comes out and then be put in play by being passed to the backs. That wasn't the case in Rugby in the 1870s when it first reached America. The idea then was that the ball was in the scrum, and the forwards kicked the ball forward, tried to break through the opposing forward pack, and then dribbled the ball downfield. Eventually, it would come to hand. And there may be some passing, and the game's object was to score a goal. Tries, which were very important now to the game, again, were the same as touchdowns; tries were precisely what the name implied. Touching the ball down over the goal line allowed you to try to kick a goal, and only goals counted in the score. So again, there was no point system. As in soccer today, it was simply a question of which team scored the most goals. So the game was, in a sense, unrecognizable from what it is today. Mass scrummage in very long scrummage in not much lateral passing, not much kicking out of hand other than to try and gain territory to set up another scrum. But it was a scrum that was the core of the game. And that, I think, proved to be the, if you like, the pivot around which the other football games developed; it was by rejecting the importance of the scrum and the dominance of the forward pack and the reliance on the kicking of goals, which led to, in a sense, Rugby fracturing into the four different games that we have today.

Darin Hayes
Now, if I could ask a follow-up question on that, Tony, now you said that, you know, back in that era, there were attempts at scoring, but there was no scoring. So what was the purpose of the try if it was just the scored goals?

Dr. Tony Collins
Well, if you touched the ball down over the goal line and scored a try, you were allowed a kick at goal, a relatively unhindered kick at goal. In rugby rules, the rule was that you touched the ball down over the line, and then you had to throw the ball back out from the goal line to your kicker, who would then attempt to kick a goal. The rugby union abandoned that rule because it was too complex and also became quite dangerous. It allowed the kicker simply to take a kick at goal from the point at which the try scorer crossed the goal line. But it wasn't until 1886 that tries had any value in the scoring system, and even then, tries were worth one point, and a goal was worth three points. And the drop goal, which I think Doug Flutey was the last person to try in the NFL. I might be wrong, but a drop goal in those days was worth four points. So, that was the most valuable way of scoring up until the 1940s in rugby union.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, just for the listeners, a drop goal is, an American would call it, a drop kick. Yeah, but yeah, it's a goal from a kick. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And so yeah, it's really what you've described as fascinating because, from a scoring standpoint, that was football early on because football was Rugby, right? And so, and I think the one thing that surprised me intrigued me in, you know, reading some of your, your, you know, your website, your book is just the whole, you know, I always had the impression of Rugby being much more free-flowing game. So when I thought of football and adopted rugby rules, it still looked like the Rugby we know today, rather than the scrumming mauling kind of game you describe. And so I, we had an earlier conversation, but you know, when, about this, but when, when Americans change football to use 15, and then 11 players, that dramatically impacted the nature of play. And could you talk about that a bit?

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, and I think this is one of, again, one of the pivotal moments in the history of Rugby and football. So there was, as you might imagine, a lot of dissatisfaction with how Rugby was played because it's not much of a spectacle just to see 30 guys pushing and shoving a ball, which you rarely see anyway in that type of game. So there was pressure to reduce the size of teams and make the game more interesting and free-floating, partly in response to soccer, which doesn't have scrims as much more open game. So in 1875, the Rugby Football Union, the governing body, reduced the number of players in the team to 15 in response to that. Then, it changed the actual tackle law in 1878, which stated that if a player was tackled, he had to release the ball immediately. So, the old style scrimmage in which players would just line up, the ball would be declared down, and then the pushing would change rapidly. And that meant that the ball could come into play much more quickly.
Nevertheless, there was still debate about how Rugby developed over the next ten years and the constant centrality of the scrum. And we can say this in America and Canada: football in those countries moved away quite quickly from the scrum. And incidentally, one of the things that will be interesting in your thoughts is that the Canadians were the first footballers to seriously discuss getting rid of the scrum in 1875. They held a football conference in Toronto where they criticized the importance of the scrum and said it was a blight on the game, eventually leading to them adopting a more open formation. But that was also true within Rugby in Britain and Australia because there were lots of complaints about the importance of scrummaging, the fact that the game wasn't more open, the fact that goals were regarded as more important than tries, which certainly people in the north of England, south Wales, and Australia in Rugby felt that tries are much more important and much more interesting for spectators and also much more scientific in the way they use the term scientific in those days. So, this general dissatisfaction with the dominance of scrum in Rugby could also be found in Rugby itself. And so many of the reasons for the changes brought into American football, obviously most notably by Walter Camp, were responses to problems that were similarly being grappled with, obviously in Canada, but also within Rugby itself. This was one of the breakaways that led to the formation of the Rugby League in 1895, which again moved away from having so many scrums and reduced the number of players on the pitch to make the game more open and attractive. So's that late 1870s period when football started to become football as we know it, which is also a crucial period for the subsequent development of Rugby and the way Rugby itself split into two sports.

Timothy Brown
Yeah. And, you know, in an earlier conversation, we had talked about how when football, you know, in a game of 20 or 15 on a side, it was easier, in a sense, to keep the ball in the scrum. Once you have only 11 players, you start dropping some of them back off, off the line. So you have fewer forwards. Now, all of a sudden, it's easier for that ball to get out of there, right? And to heal it back. And so then that leads to the passing and openness. So, if I understood correctly, in many respects, American football, or possibly Canadian Rugby at the time, generated that openness or was the first to generate that kind of open game, as opposed to the scrummy, mauling game of the past.

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, I think that's true. As we've discussed before, I think adopting 11 aside teams meant that even if you wanted to have scrummage similar to what you had in Rugby, it's very difficult because you haven't got enough players. As soon as you start to kick the ball forward, the ball will come out with the scrum, and if you kick it forward, your opponents will get possession. If you're trying to hold it in the scrum, as was a common tactic within Rugby, you don't have the numbers to keep the ball in the scrum for long. It will come out, so I think that immediately raises the question of what you do and how you control the ball, which, you know, football is solved by the snapback. Canadian football had a similar thing with what they call a scrum. Eventually, in rugby league, they also introduced what was called the play of the ball, which is a similar type of thing and still is a similar type of thing to the original snap in football, where the ball was rolled back with the foot by the center to the quarterback. If you watch Game of Rugby League today, you'll see that when a player is tackled, he stands up, puts the ball, and then uses his foot to roll it back to what rugby league calls the dummy half, but it's equivalent to a quarterback.

Timothy Brown
So, can you distinguish between the Rugby Union and the Rugby League for the typical American?

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, it's a big question that takes two minutes. All right. That's the toughest challenge to that one. There are essentially two aspects to it. It essentially revolved around the question of payment for players. The leaders of Rugby, the Rugby Football Union, were committed to the amateur ideal in the north of England, where the game of Rugby was very popular amongst industrial workers and became a mass spectator sport. And at one point, it was more popular than soccer. Players had to take time off work to play the game and train, so they lost wages. And so clubs in the north started a campaign to allow players to be paid broken time payments, compensation for having to take time off work. The leaders of the Ruby Union said, no, this is equivalent to professionalism; we're not having it. Eventually, they started to ban players and suspend clubs. That led to the strongest clubs in the north of England deciding enough was enough and that we wanted to have a game where players were allowed to be paid. It's a spectator sport, and we think the players should be paid the same way as other entities. In 1895, they broke away to form what was initially called the Northern Union but later became known as the Rugby League. The other aspect of that split I just hinted at earlier is that there was also a different conception of how the game should be played. The clubs in the north didn't like the emphasis on scrimmaging and wanted to emphasize the scoring of tries, which they felt were more spectacular, scientific, and modern. They also wanted to make the game more open because of the threat from soccer. I mean, soccer was becoming, you know, essentially a juggernaut that was taking over everything. And so they wanted to be able to respond by making Rugby as attractive as possible. And so it's those two elements, the desire to pay players and the desire to have a more open, spectacular game that moved away from the traditional rugby scrimmaging that led to the creation of rugby league. A similar process occurred in Australia, where the game is now dominant in eastern Australia. The National Rugby League is probably the biggest club rugby competition of any rugby code worldwide. It's played in New Zealand, France, and many other countries. Rugby Union is still the biggest form and the most popular. The World Cup starts in France in a couple of months. And it's still a game of all the professional classes, more middle-class elements of society. Rugby League, wherever it's played, is very much a blue-collar sport. It's it's very easily distinguishable. The two constituencies of rugby union and rugby league are very different. So it's a combination of differences on and social differences off the pitch. And I think, in a sense, the rugby league probably has more in common with football than the rugby union. A famous Australian rugby league coach once said football and Rugby are the same sport but with different rules. We don't have the ball, and you've got to tackle hard. When you have the ball, you must run hard and score tries or touchdowns.

Timothy Brown
that is interesting. And I love the, you know, the, you know, it's the US had an analogous situation, you know, you talked before about, you know, the kind of the moral aspect of, of playing Rugby and, you know, kind of the rough and tough sport, the muscular Christianity issue. And so that's kind of the elite approach. And then you've got the spectator-oriented, professional, industrial focus. And so, you know, those same tensions played out in America between the elite universities playing football and the guys in Pennsylvania and Ohio and the leagues that they played, you know, in an industrial game of football.

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, very similar. I remember years ago, in the 1980s, when British TV started broadcasting football and the NFL had an exhibition match with the Buffalo Bills at Wembley in the mid-1980s. Frank Gifford came over to England and, for English viewers, described the Bills as being very similar to one of the Northern Rugby League teams because they come from a similar industrial town that isn't doing too well. And that's the same, you know, that pretty much sums up where Rugby League's played in the UK.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, interesting. Another thing that intrigues me is, in American football, you know, because we had some rural changes, mostly the nature of tackling. Then, we've allowed blocking since very early on. And so our game ended up becoming this mass and momentum, very rough physical game, lots and lots of injuries, and ultimately deaths as well. And so, did other football codes go through similar kinds of experiences? And, you know, if so, how do they resolve it? How do they adjust their rules to try to remedy the situation?

Dr. Tony Collins
That's a really interesting question because this debate took place from the 1880s until the beginning of the First World War in 1914 across British sports. It was about the dangers of playing football, whether soccer or Rugby. Interestingly enough, the medical profession seemed to agree that soccer was more dangerous than Rugby because of the danger of broken legs. But there was nothing like the great crisis in the middle of the 1900s that confronted football. However, the only similar thing took place in 1870. There was a bit of a human cry, if you like, public consternation about deaths playing Rugby at schools. One of the reasons why the Rugby Football Union was formed in 1871 was to organize the game and make its rules safer. There was the Times, you know, the famous London Times newspaper, the main newspaper in Britain. Well, it still is today. The Times had a kind of campaign against the point of Rugby because it carried lists of young men who had broken legs, broken collarbones, and who had even died playing the game. One of the motivating factors for forming the Rugby Union was to make the game safer and the rules a bit safer. So you can see very strange things in the first set of the Rugby Union rules, such as you can't use iron plates or steel toe caps on football boats, which was quite common in schools because hacking, kicking opponent shins, was an accepted part of the game in schools and was seen as a way of demonstrating your hardness. Not only being able to kick but also taking hacks symbolized how hard you are, your masculinity, and your fitness. But obviously, that led to great dangers, particularly when people fell over and could get kicked in the head with iron boots and things like that. So one of the things that the Rugby Union did when the Rugby Football Union was formed in 1871 was to make the game much safer, ban hacking, and outlaw the use of fortified boots. So that's the nearest thing that occurred, but there isn't the same number of deaths as what started to happen in football with the mass plays. And there's never the same type of outcry that you got in 1905, 1906, when the president called the heads of colleges to try and figure out what to do about stopping football from becoming so violent.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, well, one of the things that's interesting, you know, is that I've always said I'm going to write an article about it; it just takes so much work. But, you know, a number of the deaths in the, let's just call it 1895 to 1905, and even the next ten years, a lot of those deaths are, were not things that somebody would die from today. You know, it was, you know, literally scratches on the football field that got infected. Or, you know, you mentioned broken legs, you know, broken legs at one time could be a death sentence, you know, that's not the case anymore. You know, and so that's part of it, they were the crushed skulls and those kinds of things that were directly the result of the nature of the play, which is why they changed some of those things. But yeah, it's, you know, that whole, a lot of the safety issues wouldn't be safety issues anymore. You know, just because of the advances of modern medicine.

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think the other thing is that there's, as occasionally occurred in England, a bit of a moral panic about football for various reasons. So the numbers of deaths without wishing to downplay the personal tragedy, it's easy for the number of deaths to be exaggerated. I mean, for example, in the early 1890s, there was a London newspaper, the Paramount Gazette, that campaigned against football and compiled this list of 70-odd players who we claimed had been killed playing Rugby in the north of England in just three years, which, you know, if that was true, that would be a national scandal. Almost one player is being killed every week of the season. But, when you look back at the figures, they're not particularly robust. Some happen after matches, and some of them are things that, as you say, could have happened in any walk of life. People get sepsis from scratch, often broken fingers and things like that, which are not peculiar to football or peculiar to Rugby in this case. So, I think it's worth treating figures of deaths with something of a pinch of salt. That's not to downplay or decry them or say there's anything fake about them. But it's not quite as straightforward as I think the history books tell us at the moment.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I think this is quite incredible and eye-opening to me, again, wearing that cap of the average American football fan. We consider Rugby a more brutal sport because of our perception today. In our football, we wear helmets, shoulder pads, and all kinds of protection. You look at these rugby players, who are pretty much just going out there with a shirt and shorts from our perspective and making a lot of contacts like you would in the game of football. So, I think it's incredible that the deaths and injuries weren't as prevalent in early Rugby as in American football.

Dr. Tony Collins
I think the other thing is that sometimes when football and rugby fans get together, you get this debate, which is the toughest. And the fact is, they're both different. I mean, one of the things I think that makes football is a game of short bursts. And so much emphasis is placed on yardage, which means there's much more force and impact in tackles than what you normally get within Rugby. But you've got to tackle and run with the ball, usually for a full 80 minutes, which, you know, footballs don't do. So that is the difference, as I say, with all football cards when people try to say, my game's better than yours, my game's tougher than yours, or anything. Each one has its challenges, and each one has its strengths. So it's, they're not, it's not worth comparing it in any way, I don't think.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, the other thing is Rugby doesn't allow interfering or blocking. Yeah, right. And so, while, you know, that just dramatically changes the nature of the game, the amount of contact, even if it's not, is the high-impact contact that you always see in, you know, from a tackle. Yeah. But you know, I know Rugby has its concussion issues, similar to one football face.

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Darin Hayes
Go ahead, Jim.

Timothy Brown
Well, okay, I'll jump in. So, just wondering, did any other games that, at different points, allow the armoring of players, you know, the padding and, you know, football from early on had, you know, no hard surface or no hard materials? Hence, no iron, no, I believe it's called Gouda perch, or Gouda perch, you know, it's synthetic from Indonesian trees, right? Like a tar plastic sort of substance. That rule existed for a long time, so helmets were fairly soft until the 20s. But then obviously, football went away from that, you know, with the plastic helmets and harder leather. But did any other games have a period where they started allowing more padding? Or is it? Has it pretty much been? You're on your own, baby.

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, kind of. I mean, for a long time, players in both games of Rugby, and one or two still lose it, wear what are called scrum caps, which are kind of like the old-fashioned leather helmets but made of much thinner material partly because it was believed that, for a long time, that would stop the dangers of concussion and head clashes. However, there's no evidence that they do. Scientists have claimed that giving players extra confidence makes them less aware of safety issues and head concerts. In the 1980s and 1990s, rugby league players wore thin shoulder pads underneath their shirts. There is nothing on the scale of football players' shoulder pads. But by and large, the rugby courts have stayed clear of that type of protective or offensive body wear. I think primarily because, in an 80-minute game, players are effectively playing both ways in football. So, carrying extra weight would not be a good thing.

Darin Hayes
No, go ahead, Tim.

Timothy Brown
I just have a quick comment: Just say, like, you know, in the 1910s, especially, there was a big movement to shed pads, and the game was going to be a speed game. So get rid of all paying it. And, you know, you're kind of looked down upon if you protect yourself with padding, and things went back the other direction. But so similar, a similar thing happened.

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, I mean, just one quick note on that: what's interesting is that in the very early years of Rugby, the 1860s and 1870s, when hacking was still used, was still part of the game, to where shingards were seen as a sign of weakness. And there are a lot of stories where players would go on to the pitch wearing shin guards, and they'd be told either you take them off or we're going to kick them off, and often they end up worse for wear.

Darin Hayes
Interesting. Now, if I could, gentlemen, I just want to catapult us more to the modern times here and look at some of the differences between Rugby, football, both in the Union and the rugby league, and what we know, you know, in America. And I guess one of the things that, you know, football, our modern football, we are a society that just loves statistics. Baseball started over a century ago, and football looks for ways to get statistics to get fans more involved. Today, it's evolved into, you know, fantasy football and various things. Are there statistics important to the game of Rugby that folks keep track of today?

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, but not in the same way. I think one of the things that's very striking about football, and really, I think American sport, is the emphasis that there has been on statistics for a very long time. There's a little bit of it now, but for most of its history, the only statistics that mattered in terms of players were who scored the most tries in the season, who scored the most tries in the career, who scored the most goals. And individual accomplishments like that. So, in terms of measuring yardage, tackles made, kickoff returns, you name it, anything that any football fan knows off the top of their head, those things don't exist to any great extent in any of the other games. The rise of data analytics has meant that there's more of that now, even in soccer, which is much harder to keep any detailed stats. And certainly, in the two Ruby games, you can now find, if you want to go and find details of the yardage players have made, tackles they've made, tackle busts they've made, then you can find them. And they're certainly used by the coaching staff.

Darin Hayes
Okay. And I guess the other more modern question I have for you is from the UK, you know, from an American perspective, when we talk about the game of football, there's only one thing. It's, you know, the gridiron, it's American football, and we know that you folks in England are, when you talk about football, well, it could be a variety of things. So how would, if somebody's sitting there reading the London Times or any of the other periodicals over there and somebody mentions the game of football, how do they differentiate between all these different games that are considered football?

Dr. Tony Collins
Well, that's a really interesting question because it is a real problem when you look at reports of the various types of football in the 19th century in the newspapers. After all, it's assumed by and large that you will know which type of football is being referred to. So I think the basic rule of thumb in this is that whichever sport got to a place first, whichever, you know, whichever football code got to a place first, that is the one that is normally called football. So yeah, as I mentioned at the top of the show, I come from a town called Hull, and rugby league was the most important spot there. So my grandfather, who was born in 1907, always called it football. Whereas you go to other places and football, football means soccer. By and large now in England, then if you talk about football, people assume you're referring to soccer, and you get this, which, you know, I guess you may have had as well that soccer fans will say, how can it be football if it's not played with the feet? However, the other football codes are played with the feet, not to the same extent as soccer. Also, the nickname soccer is a very English invention anywhere because it comes from the word association, the SOC in association. When these games were played in the elite private schools, association football would be referred to as soccer and rugby football would be referred to as Rugby. So that's the origin of the two names. So it's, I'll tell you, the worst place to go there if you go to Australia, where there are four major football codes. Australian rules football, another oval ball code derived from rugby school. You have rugby football, rugby league football, and association football. Figuring out which code a person is referring to when they talk about football can sometimes be quite difficult. So yeah, I think the key thing here is, when in Rome, do as the Romans do, and whatever their locals refer to as football, that's football.

Darin Hayes
Interesting, go ahead.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, your question raised an interesting question for me. You know, it's one of the things that we get into, especially in football. I think, you know because the game has changed so dramatically. I mean, to some extent, baseball is still baseball, right? But football has changed so dramatically from how it was back in the day. And so the goats are the greatest of all time; all kinds of arguments become very difficult because comparing a player from one time to another is tough, and you've got recency bias, etc. Does the same thing occur in Rugby? I mean, do people feel like they can go back and say somebody who played who was a star of 1910? You know, how does he compare to a player from the 1980s versus, you know, the 2020s?

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, it's a really difficult issue. I've been involved in panels where you decide who's the greatest player ever. It's pretty impossible because, obviously, as a historian, I've got a much greater knowledge of plays in the past than a regular fan. Naturally, your bias is towards players you've seen play and have had an impact that is still felt today. It's an incredibly difficult thing. As you said, when I first started watching football and British TV in the 1980s, it's a very different game today when I watch it than what it was when I was watching Mike Dick as Chicago Bears when Super Bowl in 1985. That's true of the other games, as well. I mean, Ruby Union has changed a tremendous amount. Not least, in the past 40 years, it's gone from being a purely amateur sport to being a fully professional one. It's changed its rules to become, in a sense, a little bit closer to Ruby League. There's more emphasis on the scoring of tries and less emphasis on scrums, but its principles are still the same.
Again, Ruby League has changed very much. I think one of the interesting things is football's impact on the other football codes. American football has impacted the other football codes, particularly the Ruby codes. I think Canada is an obvious example of what originally Canadian Rugby was. It slowly transformed itself, partly under the influence of what was going on south of the border, to become a 12-a-side three-game gridiron. But I think when you look at the Ruby League, it has also been influenced heavily by football over the years. For example, unlike Ruby Union, you only have a limited number of tackles to score.
Originally, in 1966, there was an unlimited number of tackles, similar to the problem that faced football in the 1880s before three downs were brought in. Seems to just hang on to the ball as long as they could, particularly if they got into the lead. That was changed in 1966 when the Ruby League authorities brought in the system of what you would call four downs; we call four tackles. Then, that was changed to open the game up a bit more to six tackles in the early 1970s. I was struck by something you wrote, Tim, at the weekend about Eddie Kokums at Wisconsin, who proposed five or six downs without any outage requirement, which is essentially the system that Ruby League plays today. You have the ball six times, and if you don't do anything if you don't score, you turn it over to the other side. Even though we're in the 21st century, the games have never been further apart; there's still a little influence going backward and forwards. Pete Carroll at the Seahawks is a big fan of Ruby tackling. There are links between the sports and the different types of football in the 1870s and 1880s, but there's still a little residue today.

Darin Hayes
Now, I guess, I mean, it's fascinating, um, our modern times, now I know we've seen it in the NFL, even, even, uh, recently where some former, uh, legends of the game of Rugby have come across in the United States and tried their hand at American football, trying out for, uh, you know, an NFL team. I know for a while there, we, in the NFL, had some players from Europe put on a practice squad to develop them. Still, I haven't heard other than maybe a kicker, uh, making it into American football from one of the other, um, items of football rugby or whatever is, has it, anything ever gone the other way where an American football player has become something substantial in the game of Rugby.

Dr. Tony Collins
There's a couple of footballs. One was Al Kirkland, who I think played semi-pro football. I don't think he's ever drafted in the NFL, but he came over and had quite a long career in the British Rugby League. There was a more short-lived guy called Manfred Moore who went to play Rugby League in Australia in the 1970s. I think they played for the Saints; I'm not sure. I'd have to check that one out. Interestingly enough, the most influential football player who came to play Rugby, to play rugby union was Pete Dawkins, who came to Cambridge University in the late 1950s. I think he was a Heisman Trophy winner.

Timothy Brown
from our army.

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, and yeah, and Pete Dawkins was the man who introduced the spiral throw in Ruby Union when the ball goes out of bounds or into touch, as we call it. It comes back into play through the lineup when the two sets of forwards line up alongside each other, and balls are thrown back in, and they lift and try and get the ball and put it out to the pass. For a long time, the ball was thrown in like soccer over the head and sometimes under the arm upwards and over. Still, when he came to Cambridge, it was Pete Dawkins who introduced the torpedo pass, the spiral pass to the line out, and that's the system used throughout Ruby Union now for bringing the ball back into play in a line out. So yeah, Pete Dawkins has probably been the most influential American footballer ever to play Rugby. It's because what he introduced into the game in the 1950s is still prevalent today.

Darin Hayes
Tim, do you have any further follow-up questions to ask Tony?

Timothy Brown
Uh, no, I, you know, I mean, partly interested. I mean, I, we could stand here all afternoon. But, uh, I just wanted to say this is like, you know, I don't know, Darren, from your perspective, but certainly from my perspective, this is the greatest of all time session for the podcast. I mean, I just, like, this has been fascinating. It's so much fun to hear your perspective on these things, Tony. It's, it's fun. Very much appreciate it.

Dr. Tony Collins
Yeah, me too. It's really enjoyable because I think one of the problems that we have as football historians is that it's very easy to get tunnel vision. And so, you know, you just look at your football. And I think these types of discussions when you step back and then think, well, there's a lot in common here. And certainly, you know, certainly in the history and the origins that, you know, we're of the same parentage. But even today, how problems are dealt with, the way innovations are brought into the game, I think there's a lot that, well, I think there's a lot of the games can learn each other on the pitch, but also as historians, I think there's a lot of value from discussions like this and long may they continue.

Darin Hayes
I agree. Now, Tony, before we let you go, let's let the listeners know who may be interested in picking up one of your books, any of your other projects, your podcast, or your websites. Maybe you could just give us some idea how to get in touch with some of your work.

Dr. Tony Collins
Sure, yeah, thanks. My website is www.tonycollins.org, and you can get an extensive preview of how football began from the website by clicking on the cover. I also have a podcast, which has been a bit quiet this year because I'm working on another project, but that's been running for four or five years now, which covers a lot of the stuff we've talked about today. It looks at the history of Rugby, a little bit of football history, and certainly a lot about how they relate and are intertwined. So that's where you can find links to that at tonycollins .org, but also, you know, if you go to www .rubbyreloaded .com, that'll take you straight to episodes of the podcast. So yeah, that's where you can find me, and hopefully, the podcast will. I plan to get the podcast back up and running in the next couple of months, and we'll be doing many more of these very interesting discussions. Hopefully, I can reciprocate and have you guys on the show.

Darin Hayes
That would be very, very intriguing. I can't speak for Tim, but I'd be delighted to do that.

Timothy Brown
I also just wanted to say, you know, I've got a copy of it, and part of the reason we initially connected was because I've read how football began. And just so readers or listeners know, it kind of, it goes back to some of the beginnings that Tony described here, but then also, you know, kind of on a country by country or code by code basis, it goes through, you know, Canadian football kind of, what's the story there? How did it evolve and break away from this, uh, you know, stew of games that occurred? And so anyways, if you're, if you're in Australia, if you're in Canada, wherever, you know, there's portions of this book that are directly applicable to your world and then others that are very much global and just fascinating.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Uh, most definitely now, you know, I can't tell you enough how thankful we are and honored to have you on here, Tony, and have this great discussion with us. I feel almost like, uh, it's sort of a family reunion of sorts of, you know, meeting some of the second and third cousins and different genres of football together and uniting them. And, uh, this is, uh, triumphant. I feel pretty, pretty honored to have this happen here. So, we thank you for that, and we thank you for your time and for sharing your knowledge. Yeah.

Dr. Tony Collins
Thanks, guys; it's been a blast; I've enjoyed it.

Timothy Brown
It's been great talking because, yeah, yeah, right back at you.

Before foam and Kevlar dominated the gridiron, a far stranger form of protection reigned: the pneumatic pad. In the early 20th century, players donned inflatable armor, resembling futuristic gladiators more than athletes. This essay delves into the rise and fall of these curious contraptions, a chapter in football history that is both innovative and ultimately deflated.

Timothy P Brown has a geat post on this on Football Archaeology titled: Getting Pumped Up for Pneumatic Football Pads.

The story of air-filled helmets has an early tie to 1903 with a full-page ad for “Spalding’s Pneumatic Head Harness in Spalding's sponsored Football Rules Guide for that year.

Initially, the idea seemed revolutionary. Pneumatic pads boasted impressive shock absorption, reducing the thud of tackles and promising a new era of player safety. However, problems surfaced quickly. The cumbersome air bladders restricted movement, turning agile athletes into clunky robots. Leaks were frequent, leaving players feeling vulnerable and, ironically, deflated. The technology proved impractical, and by the 1940s, air had all but vanished from the playing field.

Despite their short-lived tenure, pneumatic pads hold a significant place in football history. They represent a bold, if misguided, attempt to address player safety, paving the way for future innovations like leather and foam padding.

Their comical appearance remains a quirky footnote in the sport's evolving narrative, reminding us that the quest for protection is often a bumpy, deflated one.

- Transcribed Conversation of Pumped Up Pneumatic Jel with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another edition where we get to talk to Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com about football from yesteryear and one of the famous tidbits that he's had out recently. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Darin, thank you. Looking forward to chatting and getting pumped up. Yeah, like the old Saturday Live skit where they say, we're going to pump you up.

My worst German accent there. So I apologize for that. But yeah, your title is very fitting.

We're saying that because the title of your tidbit from back in August of this past year is getting pumped up for pneumatic football pads. A lot of P words in there, a lot of big words, and a lot of exciting stuff for equipment. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about that story.

Yeah, so this is one of those stories. Last week, we talked about what might have been with St. Louis U football, you know, had they continued playing or if things had gone differently back in the day. So this is kind of similar, but it's one of those things where for, I mean, this happens in all kinds of different product areas and industries, but you know, you kind of have to have this confluence of technology and inventiveness and engineering and manufacturing prowess and everything in order for a product to be successful. And so this is a story where the ideas were there well in advance of actually being fully implemented, but they just couldn't get it done to make it practical.

So, this is really about the first use of pneumatics. So, you know, like inflatable tires and things like that. You know, the first use of pneumatics in footballs was, it was an attempt to, they made like canvas and rubber covered thigh pads, and they'd blow them up, and then you'd insert them into your pants.

And, you know, at the time, most of the thigh pads were like bamboo and other kinds of reeds. You know, if you see somebody looking at the old pictures, you see all these tiny vertical slots. And so it was either that or like quilt material.

So, you know, they're trying to avoid what the, you know, Charlie horses and that kind of thing. So somebody had an idea of pumping up these little pads and using those. So they did that in the thigh pads.

And then there was also, there were also some attempts in the late 1890s to maybe apply it to helmets. And they weren't helmets at the time. And, you know, in my terminology, a helmet has to have some kind of hard protective cover or a crown.

Helmets initially were head harnesses, similar to wrestlers' headgear. So they tried to do that with foot helmets. It didn't really work, but they did use them in France for cyclists and the Tour de France.

And then it just goes, you know, kind of the pneumatic world goes dry as far as its application of football until the 1950s. And then you have the guy Cecil Cushman, who was the coach at the University of Redlands in California. And he was there for a long time, but he was an inventor throughout his time there.

He also got a patent in 1952 for this pneumatic lining for the inside of helmets. By then, helmets had plastic linings, so the idea made sense.

It never, you know, for whatever reason, I mean, it just didn't work. Maybe they just couldn't manufacture them. They weren't reliable enough when you did use them, something happened, but so they never took, took on or took off.

But Cushman is actually, besides being the coach there, he's best known for being the inventor of the strap on kicking tee or kicking shoe, kicking toe. So I've shown this in other tidbits, but I was trying to imagine what the strap on kicking key was. I'm like, yeah, yeah.

Sorry. I misspoke. So it's a kicking toe, but you know, I played long enough ago, you know, we still had straight-ahead kickers and, you know, we had an offensive in college.

We had an offensive tackle who would pull off his shoes, you know, somebody throw the kicking shoe to him, and then he'd, you know, put it on and try to kick the point of the field. Right. So, I mean, teams had done that forever.

So he invented this is basically a big solid block of rubber that fit around the cap of the shoe. And then it had a rubber strap on the other end that you put around your heel. It was actually, you know, pretty, pretty good invention.

But so anyways, that's what he's known for. So then it wasn't until like 1970s when both Rydell and Schutt came out with helmets that had an air bladder inside of them. So, you know, again, on the I'm old enough story, I had, you know, in grade school, I wore a suspension helmet in high school.

It was one of those white pad helmets in college. I thought it was like, geez, I'm in the big time now because we had an air bladder plus the white pads. It was like we almost could never get better than that.

So, you know, anyways, it just took until they had this idea in the 1890s for this pneumatic helmet. But it wasn't until the 1970s that it actually came to fruition. So I just, you know, again, it's just one of those where everything kind of had to fit together.

All the pieces had to come in place or come in, you know, come into place in order for it to work. But it did. And, you know, just one of those theory and practice kinds of things.

They had the theory; they didn't have the practice. Yeah. I'm glad you brought it up.

And because there's a lot of people that, you know, are football fans, but never played the game. Maybe you don't know, you know, you and I and our generation, we've seen a lot, like you've been saying, it's gone on the inside of a football helmet as well as the outside. The outside doesn't look like it's changed all that much, maybe some more aerodynamic, but the materials are much different.

And then, you know, the face masks are different, but the interior, like you say, the suspension or foam or air or, you know, God only knows what the foam pads that come out and you, you know, they kept falling out all the time, and you had all that going on. So, but some people don't appreciate that, the comfort that you have when you have this, you know, big plastic thing or whatever, the composite thing on your head, you know, you want to be comfortable because you have to, that's what you're using to look around and everything else, you know, your vision, everything's affected by it. So I'm glad when you bring up these things, and it shares it with everybody.

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I've got a story that I could, well, I'm going to tell it anyway.

My kids think I'm nuts. When I was playing, I used to get the first few days of practice every year. I get these really severe headaches, which basically tells you I probably shouldn't have been playing football, but you know, it didn't matter. So, but so, I mean, it just, it was almost like disabling.

So what I would do, you know, once I got to college, I wanted, I didn't want that to happen. So I'd get the helmet before hand. And then during the last couple of weeks before practice started in the summer, I'd go in the basement before I'm going to ready to go to bed.

And I go pound my head on the floor to, you know, simulate getting this. This is starting to explain a lot about our relationship. And it's just like, I mean, I did that now for three years, but then I'd go to, I'd get a headache, and then I'd go to bed and sleep. But then, once I started practicing, it didn't bother me.

I know it's just idiotic, but it's just one of those funny things. So, part of it tells you the quality of helmets just probably wasn't that good. And then when I look at some of the helmets guys wore earlier on, I mean, you know, I mean, tackling has changed too.

And people don't hit in the same way now. I mean, people are much more forceful in some ways than they were back then. In other ways, less, cause, you know, you didn't, you're not taught to stick your helmet, you know, in a guy's chest anymore, but anyways.

Yeah. I have a whole new respect for you now, Tim. You were right up there with the guy from the Triangles movie—the Dayton Triangles movie is out—and the guy who was tackling the trees to get ready for the game.

I don't know if you saw the highlights of that. I think you were born maybe a couple of decades too late. You should have a different generation.

I actually did. I, I was a kid. You know, I didn't have a plastic, you know, everybody had those little youth plastic cups that were just, you know, they bought them at a dime store or something.

They were garbage load things. So like when we'd play like pickup games, kids would put those on. I didn't have one.

So I had my uncle's leather helmet from his high school playing days, which is sitting up there on the shelf. You can see it. Right.

But anyway, so I'd put that baby. So I needed to protect my noggins. Yeah.

I could remember. Don't feel too much of myself in this, uh, in this episode. Yeah.

I can remember the early seventies. I think all kids on Christmas day would get the shoulder pads, Jersey, and helmet from the Sears Roebuck catalog of their favorite team. Of course, I had a Terry Bradshaw and the Steelers helmet on, and we would all take them to school.

And then at recess, you'd go out in the playground and all the boys, you know, we'd have, you know, you have like 20 different teams, the representative. Still, we'd all be padded up and playing and, you know, doing stupid things that, you know, seven, eight-year-old kids are doing with football helmets on, but good, good fun, but no protection at all. You're right. It's a, just like a, I think it's a foam that was probably less dense than a sponge that we use today.

It was inside of those things. So, there is not very much protection there. But, uh, yeah, I had to order out of the Husky Boys select section of the Sears catalog.

So, I'm with you on that one. Yeah. Tim, you know, we, we appreciate you coming on and sharing, uh, like we said, some of these facets of, uh, the, the equipment and how that's changed the game because, you know, the comfort of the players are a big thing on how they perform.

And, uh, you know, it's these advancements in safety and everything, but they still have a long way to go. People were still getting hurt and getting concussions, and hopefully, you know, that'll get eliminated someday with the technology. But, uh, you have tidbits like this on different areas of football from modern times, all the way back to the beginning of football.

And yet you share on football, archeology.com and some other areas too. Maybe you could share some of those with the folks so they can join in. Yeah.

So really simple. If you're interested, um, just go to football, archeology.com. Um, you know, if you hit a site, you're offered multiple opportunities. I think maybe you're forced to, well, you're, you're offered the opportunity to subscribe.

So it's just provide your email. Then you'll get an email every night at seven o'clock Eastern, that offers a story of the day. Um, if you don't like that approach, then, um, you can just follow me on Twitter at football archeology, you know, under the name football archeology.

I'm also on threads, uh, under football archeology. So as well as on the, uh, Substack app. So whatever works for you, that's how to get, get there.

All right. Well, Tim, we appreciate you coming on and sharing us, uh, another great, uh, thought of how football was played in yesterdays and yesteryears. And, uh, we appreciate it.

And we will talk to you again next Tuesday.

Hey, we're good there. Thank you.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

---

Football Archaeology's Tim Brown tells the tale of Princeton Tigers' baseball star who had a tremendously successful day on the gridiron against a rival.

Sanford Brownell "Sammy" White (1888-1964) wasn't just a Princeton Tiger – he was a multi-sport legend who left an indelible mark on the university's athletic history. His versatility shone across football, baseball, and even basketball, leaving behind a legacy of excellence and innovation.

Gridiron Gladiator:

White's football exploits are perhaps the most celebrated. In 1911, he single-handedly propelled the Tigers towards the eastern college football championship. His incredible performance against Harvard included:
Scoring seven of the eight points for Princeton.

He repeated some equally remarkable Johnny on the Spot plays a few weeks later in a 6-6 Tigers win over rival Yale.

All-American Selector at the time, Walter Camp, probably saw only these two contests in person, and with that information, White was selected as a consensus All-American.

Baseball Champion:

White wasn't just a gridiron warrior; he was also a talented baseball player.

He led the Tigers to a baseball championship in 1911, serving as team captain and showcasing his skills as a batter and pitcher.

Beyond the Diamond and Gridiron:

White's athletic prowess extended beyond football and baseball. He also played basketball at Princeton and later went on to coach in several sports, including football at Haverford College.

He was a pioneer in the field of athletic administration, serving as Princeton's Director of Athletics and contributing to the development of intercollegiate athletics in the United States.

A Multifaceted Legacy:

White's impact wasn't just about victories and statistics. He was known for:

His athleticism and intelligence: White combined strength and speed with strategic thinking, making him a formidable competitor in any sport.

His leadership: He was a natural leader, inspiring his teammates to achieve their best.

His sportsmanship: White was known for his fair play and integrity, earning the respect of opponents and fans alike.

-Transcribed Sammy White Glory Moment Conversation with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another edition where we get to go back in time and talk about some good old days of football. And Timothy P. Brown of Football Archaeology is joining us to tell us about one of his recent tidbits on a very popular item, or maybe not so popular.

We'll find out here in a second to learn something. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen. Darren, thank you.

Yeah, looking forward to chatting about a Mr. White. Yeah, you have a tidbit from August of this past year titled Sammy White's Moments of Glory. So what would you like to tell us? I assume this isn't the Sammy White who played in the NFL in the '70s.

No, different person, different person. This guy played about 60 years earlier.

-The Football Archaeology of Sammy White

So this was Princeton's Sammy White, who, if you go to Princeton's football website and look for persons of glory who played for Princeton, will still be one of the guys mentioned.

He's really considered one of the top guys, not for his career, but for what he did in a couple of games. So the background on this is that Princeton, there was always the Princeton, Harvard, and Yale triangle with Penn off to the side most of the time. But from time to time, those teams would get mad at one another and disagree for this or for that reason.

And then they just wouldn't play. I mean, they didn't have a scheduling conference at the time. And the Ivy Conference didn't exist until 54, I believe it was.

So anyways, Harvard and Princeton schedule a game for 1911, but they hadn't played for 11 years prior to that due to one of those, somebody got mad at the other. So while there were key events or big events that happened on the field that day, other events happened up in the air. And one was just a hot air balloon travel by the field during the game, which is kind of cool.

But more importantly, that day, a guy named Robert Collier, who was the publisher of Collier's Weekly, the magazine, was an aviation enthusiast, and he got an airplane. So he took his photographer, a guy named Hare, his last name, I think it's Robert Hare. But anyway, he takes him up in the airplane, and they fly past the football field, and Hare takes pictures of the game being played down there on Princeton's field.

So that proves or the pictures that he took that day proved to be the first aerial images of a football game being played. So just one of those little nuggets in a tidbit. So kind of interesting.

Yeah. Anyways, in the game, Princeton's 5-0-2 and Harvard's 5-0 were the best. So, two good teams.

And Sammy White plays for Princeton and he's a senior that year. He didn't even play football as a sophomore. He was a substitute as a junior.

In the spring of his junior season, he was the baseball captain. So, you know, he's a fine athlete. He just wasn't that great of a football player.

But as a senior, he starts at the left end. And in the first seven games, when they went 5-0-2, he didn't really do anything special. He was just kind of there and he continued starting.

But again, nothing really special. So, in the Princeton-Harvard game during the second quarter, Harvard gets the ball down to the 10-yard line, and then Princeton kind of stops him. And yeah, this is 1911.

So it's, you know, three downs instead of four downs at the time. So, on third down, Harvard attempts a field goal, but it's blocked. And White happens to be in the right place at the right time.

He picks up the ball and heads the other way and ends up, you know, running the ball right through the goalposts, putting it down for a touchdown. And because he ran it right through the goalposts, they were able to kick the extra point attempt from straight out from the goalposts, from the middle of the field, you know, and they make it. So it's 6-0 because of five-point touchdown time, one point extra point.

So then in the third quarter, White, as an end, is the gunner on a punt. You know, nice long punt. It goes into the end zone.

White tackles the Harvard player for safety and makes it to nothing. And then later on, Harvard scores a touchdown. They convert.

So it's 8-6, and that's the end of the game. So here's this White who hasn't done a darn thing all year long, scores a touchdown, tackles a guy for safety to give Princeton seven of their eight points in the game, and the difference, you know, in terms of beating Harvard. So that's all great.

Then they beat Dartmouth the next week in a tough game. And then they finish, Princeton finishes their season playing Yale on a bloody, not a bloody field, on a muddy field. And they hadn't beaten Yale since 1903.

So, so, you know, they're playing the game. And then at one point, Yale, you know, pitches a lateral, and it goes a little wild, and it just so happens Sammy White is standing there, picks it up, boom heads down the field. And he's getting chased by a guy who finally kind of catches up to him at about the five-yard line, you know, leaps for him to tackle.

And it's on, they're on this really muddy field. So while he gets tackled at about the five, they both slide into the end zone for a touchdown because at the time, you know, forward, they had forward progress, but you actually had to stop the guy. It didn't, you know, he's sliding on the ground, or if he's crawling on the ground, that still was forward progress.

So anyways, he does that, he slides all the way into the end zone. They convert. So again, they take a six, and nothing leads.

Yale ends up kicking a field goal later on in the game, and Princeton wins six to three. So here's this guy who really hadn't done squat. I mean, hey, he's starting for Princeton.

So he's, you know, fine enough athlete, he's been their baseball captain. So, but, you know, he wasn't that good, but he was in the right place at the right time, two or three times in two of the biggest games of the year and on the national championship team, at least, you know, retrospectively or retroactively. So White becomes, White gets named to the first team, the American team.

You know, now, did he deserve it? You know, he makes the biggest plays in the biggest games, but otherwise, he is just an average player. So it's just one of those, it's an interesting, you know, I mean, it's an interesting thing about just generally, but, you know, it's one of those where, you know, did he deserve to be an all-American? Probably not, but he was. And so because of that, and because he helped them win the national championship, he's considered, you know, one of the studs in Princeton's football history.

Sinclair, when you think about that for a little bit, though, I mean, who's deciding the all-America team in 1911, Walter Camp? Well, at that point, it's a guy named Mr. Camp. Yeah.

So, it was probably the two games that he probably saw Princeton play Yale, and it was definitely him, probably the Harvard game. So that's probably the two games that he saw and said, Hey, this guy's going out of his mind. So not only was he on the spot, but he also had the right games to perform those.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, again, back then, there was no film, right? There's no film to watch.

You can't catch the Washington game on television. You know, you can really only go on reputation, what you're hearing from coaches you trust and correspondents that you trust, and what you see with your own eyes. So, you know, Camp saw what he saw and heard what he heard.

And so Mr. White's an all-American. Well, he, uh, lives on in, uh, you know, famously here in legendary and, uh, maybe there are some better players than him on his own team, even that didn't get the credit. And we kind of forgotten them, but, uh, Hey, it's sure fun to talk about them here, you know, a hundred and some years later.

So that's pretty cool. He did. He had a teammate named Hope Colby Baker, who is pretty famous.

So he's the guy who kicked the extra points in each of those situations. So, you know, now he's known more for hockey than he is for football, but you know, yeah. He was a hell of a football player, too.

Yeah. Well, great stuff, Tim. We always appreciate, uh, these tidbits that you come up with and finding these little inkling stories or facts and, and figures and pieces of equipment.

And we really enjoy those. And you share this with, with the, you know, the public each and every day. Maybe you could share with our listeners here, how they too can partake in your tidbits.

Yeah, uh, real simple. Just go to footballarchaeology.com, provide your email address, and you'll get an email every night at seven o'clock Eastern with the tidbit; read them then, or let them pile up, um, until you're ready to read them. Alternatively, you can follow me on on Twitter, on, uh, Substack, on Substack app, or on, uh, threads, all of, all of them under the name Football Archaeology.

So whatever suits your needs. All right. Well, Timothy P. Brown, footballarchaeology.com. We thank you very much for sharing this great story of Sammy White and, uh, bringing his story to our modern times in our modern years.

And, uh, we would love to hear another great story from you next week. Very good. Look forward to it.

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American football uniforms in the 1930s were a far cry from the sleek, high-tech gear of today. Here's a breakdown of their characteristics:

Materials:

-Dominated by wool: Helmets, jerseys, pants, and even socks were primarily made of wool. This material was readily available, durable, and offered some warmth in colder weather. However, it could be heavy, uncomfortable when wet, and restrict movement.

-Limited use of leather: Leather was used for some elements like helmet padding and occasionally for reinforcement on key areas of jerseys and pants.

-However, full leather uniforms were expensive and not as common. But other materials such as silk were being experimented with.

[b[Style:[/b]

-Loose-fitting: Jerseys and pants were baggy and offered a wide range of motion. This wasn't just for comfort; the padding used in the early days was minimal, and looser clothing allowed players to add layers underneath for protection.

-Limited padding: Compared to modern uniforms with extensive padding, 1930s uniforms offered minimal protection. Helmets had basic leather padding for the head, but jerseys and pants offered little to no impact absorption.

-Simple designs: Jerseys typically featured a single team color with contrasting numbers or lettering on the front, back, and sometimes the sleeves. Logos were rare, and any designs were basic and often embroidered.

-Leather helmets: Helmets in the 1930s were primarily made of leather with minimal padding. They offered some protection from scrapes and minor impacts but were far less effective than the hard-shelled helmets with advanced padding used today. Leather straps secured the helmets to the players' heads, and facemasks were not yet a standard feature.

Key Points:

-Focus on functionality: Unlike today's uniforms with an emphasis on aesthetics and branding, 1930s uniforms prioritized practicality and durability.

-Evolving towards safety: The 1930s saw some early attempts at improving player safety, with the introduction of rudimentary padding in helmets and the gradual shift away from heavy metal cleats that could cause serious injuries.

-Distinct from modern uniforms: The overall look of 1930s uniforms feels almost quaint compared to the modern versions. The lack of sophisticated materials, simple designs, and focus on functionality offer a glimpse into a bygone era of football.

---

Tim Brown, one of the foremost experts on early college and pro football, is the host and founder of FootballArchaeology.com. Tim's love of the gridiron's past goes beyond just the website. Mr Brown, to date, is the author of three books on football history, appears on various football history podcasts, and has been quoted in articles by The Athletic, The Chicago Tribune, and other publications. He guest authors articles on UniWatch, and his research on the 1920s West Point Cavalry Detachment teams contributed to All American: The Power of Sports, currently on display at the National Archives Museum in Washington, D.C.

His books include: Fields of Friendly Strife; How Football Became Football: 150 Years of the Game's Evolution; and Hut! Hut! Hike! A History of Football Terminology, which explores the history of football’s words and expressions and how they became connected to the game.

Football History | The Football Archaeology of the WInged Helmet with Timothy P. Brown

---

In some cases of modern football helmet design, the teams merely reflect back to the retro look of their original leather helmet designs from nearly a century ago.

Timothy Brown takes us back to the days of leather helmets and the"winged" look, along with its variations from manufacturers back in the day.

The college programs of Deleware and Michigan are perfect examples of the winged helmet look tribute of an era past.

---

When you think you have heard it all, a football story like this is revealed! It's so strange you won't believe it, but this oddity occurred in the game a century ago when things were just a bit different.

I have heard of many strange situations that occurred during football games throughout the ages. Ill weather, lost balls, and even nonplayers and vehicles out on the field of play; however, when I read the Football Archaeology.com Tidbit titled Punting From Behind A Barbed Wire Fence.

It may just take the cake for being the strangest.

I appreciate Timothy Brown for sharing his time, knowledge, and incredible story from yesteryear.

We present this video to preserve the legacy of American football history.

-Full Transcription of Conversation with Timothy Brown on Punting Behind Barbed Wire



TBrown_PuntBehindBarbedWire_1

⏰Wed, 05/01 04:44AM · 12mins

Transcript

Darin Hayes:
We have a great day planned for you today on this episode. Timothy P. Brown of footballarchaeology.com is joining us just like he does each and every Tuesday. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Timothy Brown:
Darin, thank you. How are you doing this evening?

Darin Hayes:
I am doing great. And how about you?

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, can't complain, can't complain. Gonna get out of town in a few days and get away for a week. So that's nothing for me.

Darin Hayes:
Well, that's great because this winter time, it's almost like, uh, you know, especially us up in the colder climates, uh, a bit of a prisoner, almost like we're behind a barbed wire fence. And, uh, I had to stretch for that one to segue into our topic tonight. That's why Tim is laughing because he recently wrote a post he titled Punning from behind a barbed wire fence; Tim, that sounds like a pretty risky business there. And, uh, maybe you could explain this title.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, so this is one where there's like multiple rules involved that were current in 1907 when this event occurred but are long, you know, long gone from the game. So it's one, you know, I came across, I've done a couple of different articles from a series that ran in the 1920s called the most spectacular play I've ever seen. And they went out, and they interviewed a bunch of people about, you know, the most spectacular play they ever saw. And so this guy named Bill or CW Street mentioned a play that he in a game he had participated in. So, you know, just to kind of set up the stage a little bit. This guy CW played at Auburn for two years and then at Washburn and Lee. It was during his senior year, Washington Lee, in 1907, that this game occurred. But you know, he then went on. He was a track and wrestling official. And I mean that both in terms of, you know, help, like officiating, but also kind of managing as part of the, you know, the US Olympic teams for both as an administrator and official type, but he also was the field judge for the 1929 Rose Bowl, which is the game when Roy, you know, the "Wrong Way Riegels" play. So he was on the field for that play. So anyway, he saw some spectacular plays. And that was, you know, the wrong way. Riegels wasn't one of them, although I guess it actually wouldn't have occurred by the time the articles came up. So

Darin Hayes:
He might have changed his mind after that play, right? Yeah.

Timothy Brown:
So, so what happened with this guy was he was the captain of the W and L team, and they were playing Bucknell close game, and at one point, Bucknell drove the ball down to the three-yard line, and then they, the W and L's, defense held so the ball was turned over on downs. So back in that time, you know, if you had the ball inside your 10, it was very common that you pumped it on first out. And so he's saying, yeah, that's what we're going to do. But in this particular instance, the, you know, back then they didn't have hash marks. So if the play ended over towards the sideline or the previous play ended over towards the sideline, that's where the next play started. And then this is 1907, so they didn't have end zones yet. They had a goal line but no end line, no end zones. And so, in a lot of locations, since the ball couldn't, the only way you could score a touchdown was to run the ball across the goal line. You could catch a pass, a forward pass in 1907. But if the ball in the air or bounding went across the goal line, it was a turnover. It was basically a touchback. So, basically, you didn't need the depth in the end zone. It was like all you needed was across the end zone. And so, as a result, they could fit playing fields into pretty tight spaces. And there might be a wall just beyond the end zone in a stadium like the Polo Grounds. So, in this case, on one side of the end zone, there was a barbed wire fence a little bit behind the end zone. And so the street asks the referee, can we move the ball over to the other side of the field so that we can punt? And the referee says, I understand why you want to do that, but no, you can't. That's not within the rules. We can't just move the ball through the other side of the field. So the streets are like, okay, we're playing by the rules. So I'm going to play by the rules, too. So what he does is he, he has his punt, he tells his punter to go on the other side, go through the gate, lock the gate, and then go on the other side of the barbed wire fence and stand there to be ready to take the snap. So that's what the punter does. So he's back there. He gets a snap, and the Bucknell defenders start racing toward him, but they stop before they get to the barbed wire fence, and they can't figure out how to get to the guy. In the meantime, his people are running him down the field. And he's just kind of waiting there, ready to, he's waiting to punt the ball until his teammates get downfield. And now, the other thing about the rules of the time was in 1906; they made the, you know, what they call for a while the quarterback kick or the onside punt. In 1906, they made it so that if you punted the ball, any one of your teammates could recover the ball and advance it. You know, they had as much right as the return man. So by the time he punted it, they had, you know, 10 of his teammates downfield than just one return man. So they ended up recovering the ball, you know, W and R, you know, recover the ball. Unfortunately, they ended up with the same guy who was the punter on another occasion; he was back to punt, stepped behind the end zone, or I should say behind the goal line and was tackled for a safety. So they end up losing the game two to nothing. But it is the only known game in which a punt was made from behind a barbed wire fence. If anybody else knows of any others, let me know.

Darin Hayes:
It introduces your chance of getting your kick blocked.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, yeah, that's great cup protection. You know, I've got a nice barbed wire fence in front of you.

Darin Hayes:
Think about the pressure on the long snapper, though. He's got to make sure he clears that fence or, you know, there could be some trouble there.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, they only used one ball at the time, so if that ball had popped. Thank you.

Darin Hayes:
Well, but even now, okay. Let's say he snaps that ball at the rules at that time, and it hits the wire, the fence, and drops it straight down. That's a loose ball, right? So you're going to have these guys going in for a fumble next to a barbed wire fence and trying to recover. Ooh, boy. Holy porcupines, Batman. That sounds like a bad one.

Timothy Brown:
Kind of a prickly situation.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that's for sure. Well, I'll tell you what, Tim, you, uh, you, you definitely, uh, go through it, and you will find some interesting ones. That's, that's a good one. I would have never even ever thought of, uh, that being, uh, you know, but if, yeah, but there's no, uh, no end zones, there's no out of bounds. So it probably goes on forever, too.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, it's an infinite end zone or infinite goal area.

Darin Hayes:
Very, very interesting. Really makes you think on that one. Uh, yeah.

Timothy Brown:
And again, I mean, there's the, you know, just the difference in the, you had the, the on-site punt, you know, you had the, the ball over, you know, without hash marks, the balls over near the sideline. There's no, no end zone. You know, it's just a lot of different rules, you know, in place.

Darin Hayes:
It's amazing how much the game has evolved, and I think we're probably all grateful for it, except for maybe the punters. Maybe they would still want the rule to be like you just described so they could have some extra protection.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, well, I'll do a little reading on the rule book tonight see if they have any any specific mentions barbed wire fences.

Darin Hayes:
Well, I wonder, I mean, I wonder if it would have, what would have happened? It's like some of the stadiums you described where the goal line was very close to the wall of possibly the stands. Yeah. Would the punter be able to stand in the stands if the snapper could get it up to where he was and kick from an elevated position or really? Yeah, presumably. Yeah.

Timothy Brown:
Um, you know, I mean, it's just like, you know, the one, you know, fumbles out of bounds, you know, they, the ball was not dead when it went out of bounds back then. So, you know, tumbling over water buckets, over cinder tracks, all that kind of stuff. And so, you know, and it was, you know, a little bit of the reason why they kept everybody seated along the sidelines was, I mean, it was by rule, they, you know, teams were limited to like two or three or five rules varied over the years, but you can only have a certain number of people standing along the sidelines. Everybody else had to be kneeling or seated. So, you know, that's why you see in the old photographs, everybody's sitting on the bench.

Darin Hayes:
Well, as a former sideline official, I'm so jealous of those times when everybody sat on a bench. It would have been lovely. Yeah. Wow. Well, great job, Tim, uh, you know, you have such interesting little pieces like that, uh, your tidbits on football archaeology .com. Why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about how they too can partake in, uh, enjoying, uh, football archaeology's, uh, information and content?

Timothy Brown:
Yep, so you just go to footballarcheology.com. I mean, obviously, you can just go there whenever you want, but if you want to subscribe, you can subscribe for free. That gives you access to about a third of the emails I send out; you'll get and get full access to the other article or to the article; the others, you can preview the article, and then it kind of cuts off on you. Then, the paid subscription is five bucks a month, and they're 50 bucks a year. You can do a seven-day trial for free, that kind of stuff. I also post on threads and Twitter. I'm not really active on threads; I just post there and then on Twitter, you know, a couple of times a week, I'm posting something in reaction to what somebody else has said and blah, blah, blah. So, you know, fun conversations occur out there on Twitter.

Darin Hayes:
His name is Timothy Brown:. Football archeology.com is his website. Tim, we really appreciate you joining us and telling us about this very interesting piece of football history, and love to do it again next week.

Timothy Brown:
Very good. Thank you.