Timothy P Brown

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One of the top experts in early football rules history, Timothy P. Brown joins us on the discussion to celebrate Pop Warner to give some input on his brother Bill, a famous gridiron coach and player in his own right.. Timothy Brown's FootballArchaeology.com has a daily football factoid that he shares that are really quite interesting in a short read. They preserve football history uniquely, and we are quite happy that Tim has agreed to join us each week to go over some of his Today's Tidbits. Click that link, and you can subscribe for free to receive them yourself each evening.

Here is a link to Tim's original post. The Other Warner Brother and Chemawa Indian School.

-Transcription of the Other Warner Brother with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes at pigskindispatch.com. Welcome, once again, to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history.

Welcome to Tuesday. We are going on an archeological dig into football history with our friend Timothy P. Brown of footballarcheology.com. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Thank you. I'm looking forward to talking about the Warner Brothers, not the cartoon guys. Oh, well, I was getting ready my Bugs Bunny stuff out to talk about that. You can use it if you want.

I'm just... That's not what I'm here to talk about. Oh, okay. I came to the wrong show.

All right. No, but your topic is much more interesting than the Warner Brothers, which makes films and cartoons. We're talking about some great innovators in football and the Warner Brothers of football coaching and playing days of the early 20th century.

So you have a topic that you talked about, February 6th was your tidbit, and you're actually talking about Pop Warner, his brother, Bill, who's a little bit lesser known, and it's a great and interesting story that we'd love to have you share with us. So, I mean, I kind of always liked the brother combinations. There's a number of brothers and even cousins who are active, especially in coaching nowadays, but who've been very successful.

As a kid growing up, Hank Aaron and his brother, Tommy, were a brother combination that I think may still hold the record for most home runs by a set of brothers, but anyway. But this is one where, like, Pop Warner, everybody knows Pop Warner. Even if you don't really know much about him or you're just barely a fan because of his influence on youth football, Pop Warner's side of things, and even somebody who ignores football history is going to have heard his name.

But so Pop was the older brother, and they grew up in Western New York State, and they ended up going to Cornell. So, both of them went to Cornell, both were linemen, and Bill was considered a pretty big guy, or I should say Pop was considered a pretty big guy, but Bill was bigger, and he was better. He was a first-team All-American his senior year, and then he graduated from Cornell.

As was fairly common at the time, the preceding year's captain coached the next year's team. And so he graduated in 03 from Cornell and then coached in the fall of 03. And so then he, I don't know exactly how it worked out, but for one reason or another, he left Cornell, but at the same time, his brother was leaving, who had coached Cornell previously, and his brother was coming back to Cornell from Carlisle.

So, he did Pop coach Cornell twice and Carlisle twice, two different stints. So anyways, Bill leaves and his brother comes in. And so, Bill then goes to Sherman Institute, which they call Indian Schools out in California.

For 04, he's at North Carolina in 05, he was at Colgate for 06 and 07, he goes back to Sherman in 08, goes to St. Louis University in 09, and then he's at Oregon in 1910 and 1911. So, back then, a lot of coaches had full-time jobs, they weren't on campus. Part of the reason they were only there at Indian School for a year was they got hired for one year, and then they'd go back to whatever they did.

So, both of them lawyered up during the off-season. But interestingly, both of them had connections at Indian Schools, right? I mean, they were both Cornell and at the Indian Schools, but Bill never had a Jim Thorpe playing for him, so he didn't get quite the notoriety of Pop. And Bill, I think, also just, you know, he kind of got out of coaching a little bit earlier.

You know, Pop worked forever. And then, you know, so the story then, you know, so he was, Bill stayed out in Oregon and, you know, basically was a lawyer in a town out there. And then for, you know, for whatever reason, in 1917, he ends up picking up at another Indian School, Chemiwa, which is, you know, over on the, he was living more towards eastern Oregon, and he ended up, Chemiwa's over on the west side of the state.

And, you know, they had been, you know, they used to play a lot of, you know, college teams. You know, the Northwest especially didn't have that many colleges. So, you know, there were some pretty good athletic clubs like Multnomah.

And then during the war, because this was 1917, there were all kinds of military bases that they could play, or even National Guard units, you know, whatever it was. So that's kind of who they played. But, you know, he coached this Indian team again.

And he ends up with a 1, 2, and 3 record, which, you know, you don't have those too much anymore. And, you know, I think they scored like 25 points the whole season or something like that. You know, because they had a couple of nothing, nothing shutouts.

But then he just went back. And, you know, his brother was, Pop was still coaching. You know, he'd left Carlisle and gone to Pitt.

He was at Pitt for a long time. And so then Pop had, he left Pitt after the 23 season and took over at Stanford. So then Bill at least had the opportunity to work with his brother a little bit.

You know, all he really did was he scouted when he would scout like the Oregon, Oregon State, Montana, Washington, Washington State, you know, those teams. He would scout them for, you know, for Bill and for Stanford. So, you know, he kept his, kept himself in football at least from, say, 24 to 32.

Well, while Bill was on the West Coast. But the other thing that's just kind of interesting about it was that it's just, Chemiwa is still open, you know, it's a, and it's the longest serving school dedicated to educating North American or Native Americans. So it's now just a high school, you know, back even like Carlisle was this real mix of kind of, you know, a lot of them, a lot of the emphasis tended to be on like trades and manual arts and things like that.

And so they had; they covered both high school and college curricula. That was pretty typical of Haskell in Kansas, which was the same kind of way. A lot of the Indian schools, you know, had that kind of curriculum. So, but anyways, they, you know, they played some decent football, and Bill helped them, led them to a one, two, and three records, which, as I said, got to give them credit for that because, you know.

Yeah. You don't hear that. I don't think I've ever heard of a coach having a one--, two-, and three-record or a team.

That's amazing for football, especially, you know, six games have three ties, but a different game back in that era. Now I have; I'm pretty sure that Bill and Pop got to play a professional season, or at least a few games together, on the same team they had for two years back in 1902 and 1903. In the first year, 1902, they had the World Series of football, which was an indoor game at Madison Square Garden, sort of during the holidays to help with festivities.

The manager of the Madison Square Garden wanted to make a couple of bucks and, you know, put some fannies in the seats to have some revenue coming in, so they had this world series of football. So they invited four or five teams, and they were trying to get 1902.

There was the original NFL, which was a three team league of, uh, you know, two from Pittsburgh or two from Philadelphia for the baseball teams, the athletics and the Phillies each had a football team sponsored. And there was a team from Pittsburgh to Pittsburgh stars. They were trying to get those teams to come in, but they, they wouldn't, uh, they, they couldn't make it.

So they were members of those teams that went to this world series of football. So the Philadelphia athletics actually would a team, they formed, they made it be the New York Philadelphians. It's been called or the New York, the New York team, they call it.

They were sort of the favorites. They want everybody to roof flexors in New York city. And they thought they were just going to dominate this thing.

Everybody is involved with it. Well, a team from Syracuse, uh, an all-star team from Syracuse, which had both Pop and Bill Warner on that team, came in and ended up winning the tournament. They beat New York and like the second round and, you know, just, uh, went on from there, but Pop ended up getting hurt in one of those early games.

I think it might've been a game against the New York Philadelphians and a guy that, uh, for them, so for the next game, uh, Syracuse was sort of scrambling to try to find a tackle. Cause they, you know, like we talked about, uh, you know, before tackles were very important at that time. And that's what pop was.

And so they got, uh, from the New York team that lost, they got Blondie Wallace, who was, uh, sort of an enigma figure of early professional football. He ended up playing for Syracuse after losing to New York. So, but, uh, it was great to see that.

I'm pretty sure I know Pop is playing that team. I'm pretty sure Bill did too on that 1902, uh, world's football team. Yeah.

I hadn't thought about that before. You know, he was still in college at the time. Right. Um, so, you know, who knows, you know, who knows if he played under his own name or an assumed name or how it worked, but I think it's in the newspapers as he has it down as his name, you know, and it, you know, of course, Glenn Warner for pop Warner.

So yeah. It was so interesting, too. You know, you think about them in the coaching realm, but they were pretty, pretty big-time players back that day, too. Yeah.

Before they're coaching pop was not the most financially responsible man. He had some gambling issues. So he, uh, he probably needed a couple of extra bucks somehow playing in this plane in that, uh, in the tournament.

Yeah. Uh, well, it's sort of a programming note. Um, we were going to try to have something special, uh, chasing down a good friend of the program.

Uh, Jeffrey Miller, uh, authors wrote a bunch of different books, including a book on pop Warner. And April 5th is Pop Warner's birthday. We're trying to put together a nice little episode where Jeff comes on.

We pay tribute to Pop Warner. Uh, but in Jeff's book, something I didn't realize it sort of starts off. Uh, they grew up; the brothers grew up in Springville.

The whole family was there in Springville, which was sort of Southeast of Buffalo. And they all of a sudden packed up when, uh, pop was of high school age, like early high school age. And they moved to Texas.

And so they had a big ranch down there, and the boys worked on the farm, and that's how they got big and big and strong. I guess that doing the ranching work is what Jeff attributes it to in the story. And, uh, they pop back to New York to visit some buddies, uh, during pretty great before Thanksgiving time. And, uh, the guys got him involved in playing some football, and, uh, he was having a good time doing that and getting a couple of bucks.

And he told his father, he, you know, wired back and said, Hey, I need, I need some money because I, uh, want to stay up here. And he's like, your father's like, what do you want to stay up there for? So he had to make up an excuse. He said cause I want to go to school.

I want to become a lawyer. You always want me to become a lawyer. So the father sends him money.

He has some more fun with it. And he's like, Oh crap, I can't go back to my dad and tell him that. So he went and entered into Cornell's law school.

That's how I ended up going to college. So that was kind of interesting. Yeah.

Well, he's, he did a few other things where like his first year coaching, uh, he was coaching both Iowa state and, uh, Auburn. Cause they, cause they're right next to each other, uh, geographically. Oh yeah.

Yeah. It's an easy commute. And, uh, but you know, he, he basically, he coached Iowa State from like, uh, mid-August till towards the end of September and then moved down to Auburn where he kind of had his primary contract, I guess.

And, but there's a story in there where like, you know, he did continue by telegram, he coached Iowa state, but at some point, he took, took Iowa state out to like Montana to, to Butte and they, he gambled on the outcome of the game. And, you know, it didn't sound like it was a fair match, but one way or another, he lost his money. So, he had to keep coaching both places in order to make up for it.

Yeah. Yeah. There are some interesting rabbit hole stories you can go down to with the legends of the game, like Pop Warner and Bill Warner.

So definitely we could talk all day about them. There's some, some great, interesting things, but, uh, yeah, so stay tuned. Uh, we'll have more on, on pop here on some of these, I'm sure some more football archeology.com visits and, uh, hopefully with Jeff Miller too, on April 5th.

Yeah. Well, the Pop Warner thing sounds fun. That'll, that'll be a great episode.

Yeah. Yeah, sure. Well, um, well, Tim, why don't you share with us, this, this came out of one of your tidbits.

It comes out each and every day at about 7.00 PM Eastern. Uh, why don't you share with us how the listeners, too, can get involved in and read your tidbits each and every day? Sure. Uh, just, you know, go to the, uh, so my site is football archeology.com. You just gotta make sure you spell archeology correctly.

A R C H A E O L O G Y. And then, um, yeah, so if you, if you subscribe, you'll get an email every, every night at seven Eastern with the story that day story, but you can also just go to the site anytime you want there. You know, you can search by topic to find old articles. Um, and if you're not, you know if you prefer not to get an email every night, you can also follow me on Twitter at Football Archeology.

And, um, so anyways, you can subscribe, you can just hit the site whenever you want to, or you can follow me on, on Twitter. It's definitely worth the while to take that 10 seconds to sign up for it because it's a fantastic and you'll have some great football information each and every day, uh, at 7:00 PM. So, uh, I highly recommend it.

So Tim, thank you once again for joining us and sharing your knowledge and your stories, uh, from football archeology.com and your tidbits and, uh, for joining us.

Hey, very good. Thank you once again, and look forward to seeing you and talking next week.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Dive into the fascinating history of football with Timothy P. Brown, the expert behind Football Archaeology.com! In this episode, we'll unravel the origins of the sideline and pass eligibility rules, exploring how these fundamental aspects of the game we know today came to be. Join us as Tim sheds light on the evolution of football through the ages! #footballhistory #rules #sideline #passeligibility #footballarchaeology

This information comes from his original post titled: Eligible Receivers and the Sideline

For audio only check out the Podcast version -The Football History of Sidelines and Eligible Pass Catchers with Timothy Brown.

-Tim Brown on the Origins of Eligible Receivers and Sideline Play

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal for positive football history. Welcome to another exciting Tuesday where we get to go back in time and talk about an aspect of football history that may not be mainstream, but it is definitely worth the listen and education that we're going to get with Timothy Brown of FootballArcheology.com. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey Darin, good to chat with you again, and I look forward to talking about the eligibility of receivers.

Yeah, the eligible... No dad pun there, just straightforward information. Now, you don't want to talk about the married receivers, just the eligible ones, right? That's right. I had to throw the dad joke again.

That's really pretty bad. Yeah, that was bad. We'll let you do the dad jokes and I'll just be the straight man.

Yeah, so tell us a little bit about the history of the eligible receivers in the sideline. Yeah, this one's fun. I think just one of the things that I like about researching almost any aspect of football history is trying to find stories where the reason we have something today, a rule that's in place today, sometimes isn't the reason that rule was put in place originally.

Conditions change, so sometimes the rule still makes sense despite football evolving. However, the original rule was put in place for a different reason than why it makes sense today. So like a great example of that is the roughing of the punter penalty, and I won't get into the details of that. There's a tidbit out there, and if anybody wants to search for it, if you put in roughing the punter penalty in football archaeology, it'll come up right away.

Sounds like a future episode to talk to you about. Well, I'm surprised we haven't already. Yeah, I don't think we have.

Maybe we did. So, but that's one where, you know, that penalty was put in place. It was actually called roughing the fullback originally.

And so, you know, it just, it evolved for reasons that no longer exist in football based on rule changes. So, and the eligible receiver, like stepping out of bounds, that's really what this tidbit is about. And that originated kind of for reasons that no longer exist.

So, you know, back in the day, so pre-1933, football did not have hash marks. And so when a player was tackled close to the sideline, if they're tackled three yards from the sideline or two yards from the sideline or one yard from the sideline, the ball, the next play started wherever that player had been tackled, just as if they'd been tackled in the middle of the field. So, you know, offenses, every offense practiced and kind of had plays in their playbook that were called sideline plays.

You'd, you know, you'd change the formation. So you only had one, you know, you might, sometimes you had to have the center right on the sideline snapping the ball. Other times you might be able to fit the guard, the tackle or the end in there.

So one of the things that would happen is that if it was safe, four or five yards from the line of scrimmage or from the sideline, you might be able to put your whole right side of the line of scrimmage or of your offensive line in place, you know, inside the boundary. But sometimes in order for that, at that end wasn't, you know, if he's the eligible receiver and you're running a pass play in order for him to get, you know, to avoid the tackle or the defensive end and get down field, he'd just run out of bounds, you know, to dodge him, right. And which is perfectly legal.

There was no, there's no restriction on somebody leaving the field and reentering the field at that time. The other thing was that that was in the days of the coaching rules against coaching from the sideline, which typically required all the players and the coaches to be seated or kneeling back on the bench. So the sidelines were barren, you know, there is nobody there other than, you know, maybe a linesman, assistant linesman or two.

So if the end was aligned next to the sideline, he could scoot, you know, run 10 yards down field while out of bounds and then reenter and hopefully, you know, catch a pass. I think I, I think I officiated in the wrong era. That sounds like a much better sideline than when I officiated.

Yes. So anyways, you know, so these guys could reenter, you know, so if you went out of bounds, you could reenter, you know, nothing, nothing against doing so. But then, you know, then they decided, okay, well, these guys are going out of bounds.

I mean, they could have gone 10 yards outside of bounds and then reenter. So they, in 24, they made a rule change. And they said, okay, if the receiver goes, if an eligible receiver goes out of bounds, he's no longer eligible to catch a pass.

And then, and that stayed in place until 1978. And at that point, they said, okay, if he goes out of bounds on his own accord, then he's not eligible. But if a defender pushes him out of bounds or forces him out of bounds, then he can reenter and be an eligible receiver.

So, so that's kind of the, the other catch that he had to return immediately. You know, he got pushed out of bounds. He couldn't run down to five, 10 yards.

Like you said, he had to try to get back on the field as soon as he could. Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, so it's just one of those things where, you know, the original reason for putting this rule in place was because of these sideline plays. And then, you know, once he had the hash hash marks, then, okay, that reason goes away, but the underlying rationale still made sense. So they left it in place until making a modification, you know, basically 50 years later.

So, you know, it's just kind of goofy how some of those rules come into play and, you know, what, what the original reason, you know, was for them. Yeah, that, that is, that is interesting. Now, I'm not sure what they do in college and the professional level, but I know high school, that instance, now we're a receiver when they go out of bounds on their own and they come back in, it goes under the substitution rule.

It's an illegal substitution when they come back in, which is kind of interesting during live ball action. You know, he's a, cause they're a player where when they're one of the 11 that are inside the numbers, you know, at the ready for play and, you know, they break out on go wherever they'd like to on their side of the ball. But so they no longer are player when they exit on their own and they now become a substitute and now it's an illegal substitution when they come back on.

So it's, it's kind of an odd thing where you're, cause most of the rule books, I know for the NFHS, they're broke up in dead ball. You know, there's a bunch of rules on dead ball and then there's a bunch of rules on live ball and kicking and snap and everything. But this one is a live ball.

That's actually in the dead ball section, which is kind of drives you crazy if you don't know where to find it. Yeah. It is funny.

I mean, so just, that's a classic example of, you know, you have to try to categorize these things. So what is it? Right. Right.

And I can't think of the examples right now, but there, you know, there are other situations where like the logic, I mean, it's kind of like, you know, I've never been a lawyer, but I imagine some of these things, you know, when you're making the rules and trying to classify them and categorize them, you know, you're trying to find what, what's the fundamental logic behind this rule. And, and sometimes that changes over time as we've seen. But so you kind of classify things based on the logic, which may not be apparent to somebody who doesn't really know the rules inside and out like an official one.

Yeah. It's, it's right up there on par when, if you have somebody let's say somebody punches a player and it's during live ball. Well, that is a personal foul.

If they do it during dead ball, it's an unsportsmanlike foul. They're both 15 yard penalties, but you know, the enforcement may be different depending on the style of play. I'm not sure.

I don't think I recognize that. Yeah. So it's, so you have, but that's why there's two different signals, one for unsportsmanlike, one for personal foul.

Personals are always live ball fouls, unsportsmanlike are dead ball fouls. All right. So, but you can do the same action.

It's illegal. It just depends when you do it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it makes sense.

Right. Right. Right.

You know, you need, you need the distinction, but, but again, I would guess 95% of football fans don't know that. No, that's, that's true. I didn't know it until I officiated.

I mean, I was kind of surprised when I, I did that when I learned that. So kind of, kind of an interesting aspect though too. So, you know, Tim, that's a great thing.

And I, I'm glad that you shared this with us and wrote about it, and you know, how the rule came about. And it's just interesting how it, for a totally different predicament and they turn it into something with the modernization of the game and how the game flows. So that's pretty cool how they tied that in and how you brought the story to us.

But you have a lot of unique stories like this that you share on a regular basis. And maybe some of the listeners out there and viewers would, would like to be interested in hearing what you have to say on, you know, as you, as you're saying them and your tidbits and how, how can they participate in something like that? Yep. Just, you know, go to footballarchaeology.com and subscribe. You'll get an email every time I send out a new post.

You can also follow me on Twitter, Substack or the Substack app or on threads, or just go to the site, you know, whenever it suits your fancy. Okay. Hopefully, hopefully very often.

Yeah. And folks, it's, you know, Tim said in a segment we had last week, keep watching the social media and footballarchaeology.com for his new book coming out on the history of the football. It's going to be a great read and something I'm sure you'll all want on your bookshelf.

So, Tim, we thank you for sharing with us again, another piece of football history, and we'd love to talk to you again next week. Okay. Look forward to it.

Thanks, Darin.

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Today's gridiron leaders are often larger-than-life figures, barking orders from the sideline and orchestrating plays with the precision of a maestro. But where did the term "coach" originate in the world of American football? This seemingly innocuous word carries a surprising amount of history, reflecting the evolution of the game itself.

This article delves into the fascinating etymology of "coach" in American football and the research and findings of Timothy P Brown. We'll explore a historical account, searching for the first documented instance of this term being used to describe the leader on the field. Was it a deliberate choice, or did the term evolve organically from earlier terminology?

Perhaps it originated as a metaphor, reflecting the idea of the leader guiding the team like a coachman steers a carriage. Or maybe it emerged from the early days of the game, where sideline strategists quite literally "coached" players on the finer points of the sport.

Join us as we unearth the origin story of "coach" in American football. This exploration isn't just about a word; it's a journey through the changing role of leadership on the gridiron, a window into the early days of the sport where strategy and inspiration first coalesced into the iconic figure we know today. So, buckle up and get ready to discover the surprising origin of a term as fundamental to football as the pigskin itself.

-The First Football Coach with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And once again, it's Tuesday, and we're going to stare back into that portal of the history of football and talk with our friend Tim Brown of FootballArcheology.com. And he also has many great books on football history.

Tim Brown, welcome back to the Pig Pen. Hey, Darin, I appreciate it. Thank you once again.

I always look forward to doing these each week. Yeah, I do, too. And I've been really looking forward to discussing this one because you had one in late August, a tidbit on the first football coach.

And I'm hoping that you'll share some of the information from that great tidbit with our listeners. Yeah. So, one of the things I've been doing lately is basically writing a book that covers the origins of football terminology.

So when did somebody, when was somebody first called an assistant coach or a defensive coordinator or an offense coordinator or whatever? When did the word handoff come into the game? All kinds of things like that. So, it's just regular terminology that every fan understands. So, one of the words that every fan understands is a football coach.

So I'm going back and most of what I'm doing is I'm searching on online newspaper archives because my rationale is that when it shows up in a newspaper, that means it's being introduced to the general public or it's already known to somebody, but it's getting out of the football technical terminology world. Because it's going to be in a mass publication. So, I'm using that as the database.

And so I went and searched and looked for an example, the earliest example I could find, a football coach. That ended up being a guy named Alfred Holden, who was mentioned as the football coach at Harvard in 1889. And so that in and of itself is kind of interesting.

I mean, I think it's fascinating, but just two other elements of it that I think are kind of interesting. It is just that a football coach in 1889 was not at all like what we think of as a football coach today. So back then, I mean, now a football coach is a full-time job; he's 57 years old or whatever. So this is, it's an experienced, supposedly adult, human being who probably played, but one way or another has gone through years of apprenticeship as an assistant coach and analyst and whatever.

But back then, the only guys who knew how to play football were guys who just stopped playing football. So, recent college graduates were the ones who were most knowledgeable about football. One of the traditions that a lot of Eastern schools developed was that the captain from the previous year would return and help the captain for the next year.

Other alumni would come back, and that's part of the reason they used to have alumni games. But the alums would come back and scrimmage with the players. That's one of the reasons football coaches used to wear gear in practice; they were scrimmaging with the kids.

And so he came back, and he continued coming back for another decade or two, because I found references saying that he came back in 1899, so ten years later, a lot of 28 other guys, other Harvard alums who came back to coach a week or two during pre-season, but guys would pop in and help out. So the thing was that the captain ruled the roost. Schools would have a football association, typically alums who raised money or maybe handled the money, but the on-the-field decisions, everything was ruled by the captain.

And so even like Walter Kemp, even though he's credited with coaching and a lot of other guys are credited with coaching in the 1880s, 90s, and even the first decade, a lot of times they answered to the captain. The captain made the final decisions. And coaches couldn't coach during the games, coaches couldn't coach.

They had the coaching from the sideline rules, which is a penalty. And even as late as 1915, the Yale captain fired the coach halfway through the season. So that's kind of a different world.

So, the other thing that I am kind of interested in is the origins of the word coach. So that comes from, you know, we still call a horse-drawn carriage, certain horse-drawn carriages, coaches. And, you know, that was, I'm not sure exactly where that term itself came from, but it referred to, you know, horse-drawn vehicles that carried people from one place to another.

So the students at Oxford in England, who liked to create all kinds of slang terms, they then took the term coach and applied that to a tutor who carried a student through a semester and got them to pass their tests. So, the coach became kind of a tutor. And then, it started being applied to athletic coaches in England and then crossed the water.

And so the first baseball coach in a newspaper was 1888. And then first football coach is 1889. So.

Wow. I never realized, I always thought they were, you know, two separate words, but spelled the same and pronounced the same, you know, I didn't realize that they were once the same word and it was a derivative of the other. So very interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think those, those kinds of, you know, where slang moves in to become just, you know, you don't even think about it, you know, well, who thinks about where the word coach came from? Well, I do, but, you know.

Right. Well, Hey, now you got us thinking about it. So, thanks for that.

Now you'll come back to the way the captains are, you know, I know from my officiating days, captains, even through my football career, the quarter century that I did it; it seemed captains sorta had less and less importance in decision-making. And now they almost want to encourage the referee to be within earshot of the offended coach. When you're explaining things to the captain, you know, coin tosses are now the coin toss you see out on the field. Maybe not NFL games, but most college and high school games are ceremonious.

They're most of those are done in the locker room or long before the game started, whether you know that or not, it's a little official secret, but that's last 20 years or so that's been going on. So the coaches are right there telling the captains what, you know, decision to make and everything. So, you know, it's more focused because the coaches have their jobs on the line.

You know, it's them; their livelihood is at stake, whether they win or lose that game where the kid is making a decision, he makes a wrong decision. Okay. He just gets yelled at by the coach, and he goes on his merry way.

Well, the coach might lose his job over this. I think we're at some point where that's coming from, but it's interesting that the captains were in full control back a hundred years ago. Yeah.

Well, you know, if you're, if you're old enough, you'll recall the days when quarterbacks called the plays, right? I mean, there were still pro-quarter NFL quarterbacks calling the plays. Yeah.

Probably into the maybe early eighties, something along those lines. And now, of course, you know, I mean, they had audible or automatics back then as well, but you know, now you kind of serve some of the same function, you know, via audibles, but you know, that whole coaching from the sideline, that was a penalty coach, you know, so the whole ethos was that the game is about the kids. The game is about the players on the field, not some stodgy old coach or last year's captain.

It's, you know, you're gone, you're, you graduated. So, you know, it was all about the focus and the decision-making, and the pressure should be on the kids because then they could learn something. And so, you know, that, that was kind of the rationale behind all of that, but, you know, well into, you know, well, well into the sixth, well, the early sixties is when coaching from the sideline pretty much was limited, you know, in college football, you know, and that's when you start seeing players shuttling in and out, you know, pros, pros did it a little bit earlier, but yeah, I mean, it's just very different, it was a different world, you know, before, before coaches could, could coach.

Now, there are earpieces in the quarterback's helmet and defensive captain's helmet, and they're getting direct from the press box. Yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, I mean, and the funny thing is, I mean, there were people who were just adamant.

Red Blake was one who just thought it was a horrible trend to allow coaches to increasingly call plays and send in what they said were messenger guards, you know. And, you know, but obviously, you know, he lost that battle. And I think it's a good thing he did because it really improved the game and the communication.

Let, let the athletes play, let the coaches do the thinking, because that's what they get paid for. And it makes it a much more interesting game. That's for sure.

Yeah. I mean, obviously, it's a far more technical game, you know. But, you know, there's, I think there's still something to be said for at lower levels about letting the kids call the play.

But, you know, I mean, I coached youth football too. And so, you know, I call the plays. So I get it, you know.

Yeah. Awesome. Definitely some interesting stuff.

Now you said you have the book in the process, though. I believe you have, where people can see bits and pieces of your book on your site. Would you like to talk about that at all? Yeah.

So I'm, I'm releasing, you know, kind of little bits of it here and there about once a week; I release one of them. So part, some of them I'm sending out are open to everybody, and then others are for paid subscribers only. But if you go to the site, you'll see a little header up at the top that says a word on football, which is the working title of the book. Click on that and, you know, read whatever is in there.

Or again, if you're, if you're subscribing, then you already are getting those things. But, you know, I'm, I'm still defining a couple more terms, but I'm pretty close to being done. And now, you know, what I got to do is I've written all these things, the separate pieces.

Now I got to kind of get them all to fit together and make sure I'm not repeating myself 57 times. And so it'll be you know, my only goal really is to have it done, you know, at least by mid November. Just so what I found in the past is that if you're, if you're selling books, you better be selling them in November and December because that's when they sell baby.

That's for sure. Wow. That is great.

So Tim, why don't you remind us once again, the, where your website is and any social media where people can find you? Yeah. So the website is footballarchaeology.com and I go by the same name on, on Twitter. So those are the two places and, you know, whichever way you prefer to consume, do it that way.

But, you know, the one thing that's nice about subscribing is if you subscribe, you're sure to get every, every one of the posts, you know, and you read them at your leisure. So, okay. And if you miss that listeners, we have it in the show notes, get you linked right to Tim and you can be on your way to getting the tidbits and the words on football and that he gets released there too, if you're so interested.

So Tim, thank you very much once again, for sharing this great bit of gridiron history with us and appreciate it and hope to talk to you again next week. Okay. Very good.

Look forward to it.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

---

Strap on your helmets and step back in time! This podcast dives into the gridiron twilight of a coaching legend: Amos Alonzo Stagg. We'll be dissecting the final game Stagg coached for the Chicago Maroons, a team he led for an astonishing 41 seasons.

Join us as we uncover the secrets behind Stagg's coaching prowess, explore the atmosphere surrounding this momentous game, and analyze its impact on both Stagg's legacy and the trajectory of Chicago Maroons football. Whether you're a die-hard football fan or a history buff curious about a bygone era, this podcast promises a fascinating journey into the world of early college football.

Timothy Brown shares the information and story of this epic moment in gridiron history based on his original Tidbit titled: Stagg's Last Game At Chicago .

You can also enjoy this conversation on our podcast format: Stagg's Fianl Game Coaching U of Chicago.

-Transcription of Stagg's Final Game in Chicago with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal for positive football history. And welcome to another Tuesday where we visit with FootballArcheology.com's Timothy P. Brown, the master historian, who's going to tell us about another one of his great tidbits. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Thank you. Thank you. I have a quiz for you.

I'm not going to hit you with the dad joke, but I'm going to hit you with a quiz. Okay. What makes this podcast special? This particular one, this episode.

This episode, what makes it special?

Well, probably the guest, as most people are going to tell us.

Come on. Come on. You and I have done 99 podcasts together before this one.

Really? Is this the 100th one? What makes this one special? This is the century mark, huh? That's right. Wow.

That is quite an accomplishment. Numero one hundred. I'm mixing my German and my Spanish, but yeah, this is our 100th podcast.

Now I think, you know, I was on your podcast once or twice before we kind of got together on a regular basis. So this is our 100th when it was, you know, on a regular basis. So this is the 100th Tuesday in a row that- That's correct.

Yes. Wow. So we're going to hit the two-year mark in two or four more episodes.

Yeah. All right. Well, hey, that is quite an accomplishment.

Anything. So, thank you for sharing. I didn't realize that.

I knew it was a whole bunch, but- Yeah. So I just, you know, I'm kind of a dork. And so I've numbered them. Just when we started doing them, I started numbering them.

So we just happened, this happens to be the one that says 100 before. Well, if I would have known that I would have baked a cake or something. So, I apologize.

I just wanted to surprise you. Yeah. Surprise parties are always the best.

Yeah, that sure is. I need to have some like fireworks things going off in the background here when we go to do the editing on here. So, well, hey, great.

Great for sharing that. So, you know, this is, well, part of this century mark. We're going to talk about somebody who lived for almost a century.

That's right. And then a tidbit that you wrote a little while ago called Stagg's last game at Chicago. So the grand old man of football had his last game for the Chicago Maroons on the sideline.

So, you know, the background here is Mr. Stagg right there. Now, this isn't at the 100th game, but that's him along the sidelines at Chicago. And so, you know, one of the things that I actually opened that tidbit with was just the thought that you know, so from my vantage point, football really started in 1876, not 1869.

And then Camp died in 1925. He was actually at one of the meetings too, you know, one of the rulemaking meetings. So he, Camp, saw the first 50 years of college football.

And Stagg, who was, I think, three years younger than him, and just, you know, maybe a couple of more, it took him a little bit longer to get to Yale as a young man. But so he's a little bit delayed in terms of, you know, his class from Yale. But nevertheless, he was born before football came about.

He was born during the Civil War. And, you know, he saw football's first 90 some years, you know. So, I mean, two central figures, obviously, you know, if Camp is the father of football, Stagg's the uncle, right, you know.

And so here's two really influential guys in the history of the game. And then Stagg lives 40 years longer, you know. So he saw, I mean, you just think about what he saw after 1925.

So, you know, very much, you know, the forward pass coming into play, he saw the, you know, more, you know, a greater acceptance of African American players. He sees, you know, modern transportation, allowing teams to travel and, you know, much more intersectional play. Radio, he saw the beginnings of television, you know.

So, I mean, there were things that he saw and changes to the game that, you know, Stagg or Camp never saw. So anyway, it's just kind of an interesting way to think about their times. But so, you know, Stagg went to Yale, coached and attended Springfield College, so the YMCA school for, you know, for a year or two.

He was then recruited to the University of Chicago by the then president, who was a former Yale faculty member who had had him as a student. And so he recruits him to become the head of athletics. So, it was a faculty position, but, you know, that meant he was the football coach, baseball coach, track coach, you know.

So he became a really influential figure, actually, you know, football and track for sure, you know, major figure. And so he was the coach there from 1892 through 1932. So, in the first 40 years of school, you know, he's the football coach.

And, you know, won a national championship or two and, you know, a bunch of Big 10 championships and everything. But as he was, you know, kind of getting on in the years, Chicago brought in this new young president who didn't like athletics and especially didn't like football. So the guy eventually just, you know, bled the budget of the athletic department.

And then he forced Stagg to retire. So, at age 70, which was the university policy. So, you know, he can do that.

And so then Stagg ends up. So, you know, it was known before the season started that this was last year. So every opponent would like to honor him, you know because he had been such a central figure.

And so most of the teams were giving them like a letter sweater from their school or an award blanket, which a lot of schools gave out at the time, rather than sweaters and jackets. Michigan was so damn happy to get rid of them that they gave them a silver service. So, but then his last game is they're playing Chicago, and they got a new coach by the name of Clarence Spears, who I just say that because, you know, he'd hung around, he was coached in a number of places, you know, for 30 years or whatever.

He was one of those guys who was a doctor and a physician and would coach during the fall. Another interesting thing about the game. So, in the last game of the season, the referee for the game was Frank Birch, who was the guy that invented the referee signals, you know, for penalties and touchdowns and all that kind of stuff.

So, you know, here's another barely central figure in the game. But, you know, it was one of those games where, you know, Wisconsin scores first, they don't convert, then Chicago scores in the second quarter to take the lead because they converted. And then the Badgers score again before halftime, a 12-7 lead.

And then, I mean, I'm a Badger fan, but unfortunately for Stack, the Badgers scored again. And then, you know, there was one play in the second half where the Chicago halfback takes off wide open, nobody there to touch him, and he trips over a line or whatever, but he trips and falls. And so they never score, and they end up losing 18-7.

So Stack loses his last game, ends up with the losing record for the season. So he ends up 3-4-1 that year, which left him at 244, 111 and 27 in his career at Chicago. And in the big 10, he went 115-74-12, with 30 of those losses coming since his last championship in 24.

So he lost a lot of his games in the last ten years of his coaching because they just, again, like I said, they kind of got bled out and, you know, academics just became the key. But then what's kind of cool is that he then leaves Chicago, gets hired at the University of Pacific, and he coached there for 14 years. He won five conference titles.

And then once that passed, then he goes out, one of his sons was coaching out at Susquehanna in Pennsylvania. So he was, sometimes his son would say, well, he was a coach and officially his son was a coach. So I'm just going to say he assisted there for six years.

And then he goes out, he's like 91 or something like that, goes out to, retires in California, but it still is the kicking coach for a local junior college. You know, so the guy ended up, you know, with, the guy ended up with, what is it? Sixty plus years of coaching football, you know, at the college level. And even more, because I'm not even counting his Springfield years.

So, you know, low sixties. So anyway, I'm just unbelievable, you know, the guy who was, you know, on the rules committee, you know, a number of football innovations are credited to him. He was one of the guys he and the Harvard captain in the same year who invented tackling dummies.

Right. So, I mean, there are so many things, like flankers. You know, he was the guy who really created a lot of core football elements that, you know, we just take for granted today. And as you said, he's right there within the first, you know, not even a decade; football's not even a decade old when he starts playing the game.

So he's probably observing it, you know, as a youngster, but it's amazing just to take that full circle, and what a brilliant career. Excellent. Yeah.

Yeah. There's something else. And, you know, obviously, playing at Yale at the time, Yale and Princeton were the best football teams during the 1800s.

Yeah. So he was right there in the middle of it all. And he was quite the baseball player, too.

I think major league baseball sort of wanted him, and he decided he was against professional sports, and that's sort of why he went to the coaching career. He was a very big advocate of collegiate and amateur sports. So.

Yeah. He was, you know, a religious guy, too. And so, you know, he's an interesting dude.

He's a vegetarian and he's just, you know, kind of unconventional in a lot of ways. But yeah, unique individual. If you live well into your nineties and you're still coaching in your nineties and working and still good brainpower, maybe we should all get rid of meat then and become vegetarians.

Cause yeah. Well, you know, the other thing that's funny is that he was. There are a lot of stories about him, and there were different times when I forgot exactly what it was. He had some health issues, you know, from time to time, and his wife would take over.

And so, you know, like his wife, a lot of times would be at practice. Like if he couldn't be there, she'd kind of run things. And she apparently knew her share of football, right? And the team was not, you know, it wasn't like a substitute teacher where kids are trying to screw around.

Like they knew that she knew what was going on, and they weren't going to get away with anything with her, or they'd meet the consequences of nothing else. I wonder if Nick Saban's wife was doing that, like when he had to take a day off. Yeah, I doubt it, but I'm not sure.

He probably had more assistants. That could be, that could be. Well, Tim, that is great stuff on a great, you know, innovator and an important figure in football history.

And God, we really enjoy that you were able to talk about that last game and give us some of the history before and after that game too. So it comes full circle on there. But you, you have some interesting topics like this all the time on your website.

Maybe you could tell folks how they could engage and read your stuff. Yeah. So just go to footballarchaeology.com, you know, bookmark it, go there whenever you want.

Alternatively, you can, you can subscribe, subscribe for free. You can follow me on Twitter or on threads or on the Substack app and, you know, read it as you please. All right.

He is Timothy P. Brown of footballarchaeology.com. And Tim, we thank you for joining us in this, giving us another glimpse of football history. And we'd love to talk to you again next Tuesday. Very good.

We'll do 101 next week.

101. Thanks, Tim.

All right.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

---

Football officials get a bad rap. Okay I am not saying they are without error, nobody is perfect, but the zebras get ill feelings thrown their way even when they are correct in their calls.

One of the top experts in early football rules history Timothy P. Brown joins us on the discussion to identify some of the stories of the communication regulation of some pioneering football officials. Timothy Brown's FootballArchaeology.com has a daily football factoid that he shares that are really quite interesting in a short read. They preserve football history in a very unique way and we are quite happy that Tim has agreed to join us each week to go over some of his Today's Tidbits.

A recent Tidbit that Tim had titled Herb Dana and the Associated Football Question Box, is our subject today.

-Transcribed Conversation on Officiating Signals of Herb Dana with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal for positive football history. It's Tuesday and we are going to join our friend Timothy Brown, the great historian and author that digs into the archaeology of football each and every day, but shares a little tidbit with us each week.

And today, Tim's got a great topic. Tim Brown, welcome back to the Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Thank you very much. Looking forward to chatting once again and seeing where the conversation goes. Yeah.

You know how I'm a former official, so I've got the zebra blood still flowing in me. It's been a few years, but I'm still in the brotherhood, I think. I don't think they kicked me out yet.

And you have some great history on the officiating of the game. And we talked a few weeks ago about it, but you have some more insight and some more gentlemen that are responsible for some of the things that officials do. So, I was hoping you could talk about that today.

Yeah. So a couple of weeks ago, I wrote an article about a guy named Herb Dana, and it was called Herb Dana and the Associated Football Question Box, which is a mouthful of kind of a word salad. So Herb Dana was a guy who played in the end at Nebraska.

He was on their 1921 team. That was his senior season. And then moved to Denver and started officiating there, doing some kind of the Rocky Mountain sorts of games.

Then he moved to San Francisco and very quickly rose up the ranks and became one of the top officials in the Pacific Coast Conference, what's now the PAC-8 or PAC-12 or PAC-10, whatever they are right now. And so part of the reason I raised him or one of the interesting things about his story is that he was not scheduled to officiate in the 1929 Rose Bowl, but the guy who was the scheduled referee, a guy named Frank Birch, we mentioned a couple of episodes ago, and he's the guy who invented the referee's penalty signals that we all know and love today. But a couple of weeks before the Rose Bowl, he tore his ligaments, so he couldn't officiate, so they brought in Herb Dana instead.

And so, you know, the 1929 Rose Bowl doesn't mean a lot to most people, but that is the game when a guy named Roy Regals, who was playing for California, picked up a Georgia Tech fumble and got turned around and ran the wrong way. And then his teammates stopped him in the corner of the field at the one-yard line. And so, and they basically tackled it, stopped him before he went into the end zone and, you know, for safety.

But so the referee then who actually marked the ball in that particular case was this guy, Herb Dana. So that was, you know, he was in on, you know, one of the most important plays or most famous plays in the history of football. So I just, you know, thought that was kind of cool.

But, you know, Dana, the other thing about him is that it was a big part of football back in the, you know, turn of the century through to maybe World War II. Officials often, so a lot of the officials were former players. And many of them were also like sports writers.

And even if they weren't sports writers, a lot of times they would, they'd write columns for the newspapers. And, you know, they became basically media personalities. So there was a guy, George Varnell, who some people called the Walter Camp of the West.

You know, he was a sports writer in Seattle and out there in Pullman prior to that. But he was, you know, I think he officiated more Rose Bowls than anybody else. So he's a big-time referee on the West Coast, he was on the football rules committee, but he was a sports writer, you know, and here he'd be writing all kinds of, you know, he'd be making predictions about upcoming games, including the ones he was going to referee.

He'd name all-conference teams, all kinds of things like that. That gets a little hairy to do that. Well, but, you know, it happened all the time.

You know, another guy, Walter Eckersall, was an All-American halfback at Chicago and became a sports writer for the Chicago Tribune. And he'd travel with the team, you know, he'd travel with the team that was going to play. He traveled with the Great Lakes, you know, team, you know, from 1918 to 1919.

But, you know, again, the same kind of thing. He profiled these teams, made predictions, and all kinds of things. And like he would, he'd referee the game, and then write a column about it, you know, and then editorialize about it, you know, over the next couple of days.

And that's just, you know, it's a conflict of interest that they didn't view as a conflict of interest. But, you know, for us nowadays, I mean, there's no way, you know, you can allow that to happen. So Dana was that same kind of guy on the West Coast.

And one of the things that's included in that particular blog post is, you know, some time back, I bought a postcard. And it was this pre-printed card that gave, you'd go, and you'd pick it up at a local gas station, and it was particular, you know, the Flying A brand of gas. And you'd then take that postcard, you'd write a football question, especially a football rules question, and you'd mail it to Dana.

And he would answer that either in the newspaper column or he also hosted a 90-minute radio show at the time that was then syndicated across, you know, you know, the West Coast and the Rockies. So this, you know, again, this is a guy, he was as big a media personality as most coaches, you know, everybody knew who Herb Dana was. So it's just that, you know, it's a different time.

And he, you know, here he's answering these questions, he's predicting who's going to win the big game this coming weekend. And then he, you know, not too long after all that was happening, he became the head of officials for the Pacific Coast Conference. And he was still doing those radio shows at the time.

So just, you know, just a very different time and place. We can't imagine it today. Yeah, I can see, you know, and I think he's done it, you know, Mike Pereira has done. That's probably the face of officials that we get used to nowadays. And he's got a great way of explaining the rules and everything.

But I don't know if I'd ever hear Mike Pereira saying, hey, I'm officiating a game today. And I think, you know, Stanford's going to win by three, you know, that's, I just can't, that blows my mind. But okay.

The other thing is the same thing happened with coaches. So John Heisman was a big, you know, very, very smart guy. And he wrote all kinds of columns.

And some of it was just, you know, things where he diagrams plays and da da da. But you know, he offered his opinion on lots of different things. Any number, you know, there are a lot of coaches. They would write a series of 20 different articles, just quick little things, diagram plays, and talk about some techniques.

And those would be published, you know, syndicated newspapers across the country, you know, for a season. So, a lot of coaches did that. Rockne did that.

And Rockne used to predict, you know, he'd talk about who the better team was, teams he never saw because they didn't have television at the time. Now, some of them, obviously, he had seen, and he'd compare them. He saw somebody playing week two and another playing week eight, and he'd offer his opinion on who was going to win the game, you know.

But so, you know, coaches did all that kind of stuff, too. Zupke at Illinois was another one that published a lot of articles. And so... Well, even Walter Kemp, you know, wrote for Colliers quite a bit back in the day.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kemp, you know, Kemp's authority came as much from his writing as anything else. Well, obviously, you know, his role is in the rules-making, you know, organizations. But, you know, he was, you know, if you think about it, he was like, you know, Vince Lombardi and Paul Zimmerman and a couple of other guys all rolled into one because he was a successful coach.

He was a big time official. He was, you know, the top writer, you know, prior to like Grantland Rice and those kinds of guys coming along. So, you know, it was their writing was a really big time way of their gaining influence.

Then, it transitioned to radio. And now we have, you know, guys, former coaches or somebody who's knocked out of the playoffs, they come and commentate, you know, during halftime of particular games or before the game. So same kind of thing going on.

But at least now we wait until they're out of the... Now we wait till their team's no longer playing before we let them start talking. Right. Well, fascinating stuff.

And we appreciate you coming on here and sharing that football history with us each week. And why don't you let everybody know once again where they can read your stuff and find you each day? Yeah. So footballarchaeology.com, that's my website.

There's a daily Today's Tidbit that comes out typically very quickly, hitting 30-second 40-second reads with the picture, too. A couple of times a month, I'll also be posting additional long-form information. So, the best thing to do is just subscribe to that.

And you'll get an email every day about typically about seven o'clock in the Eastern time zone in the evening. You can also follow me on Twitter at footballarchaeology.com. And that's, you know, that's my name there as well. Well, I can tell you or my wife can tell you, it's exactly at seven o'clock Eastern each day because we'll be sitting on a couch watching television or something, and she'll hear the ding go off on my phone.

And she goes, what's that? And I said that's Tim getting my tidbit for the day. Yeah. Sometimes, there are a few occasions where I've got something going at seven o'clock.

So, I sent it out earlier, or I just made a mistake, and I didn't schedule it correctly. You mess up my entire evening that way. I don't know what time it is.

I set my clock by you. Once again, thank you very much, Tim. And we'll talk to you again next week.

Okay. Darin, thank you very much. Look forward to it.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

In the modern era of College football, the reward for a team at season's end is to make it to one of the big holiday bowl games and win it. Hoefully they are ranked high enough to be playing in the college playoff format for a National Title.

Timothy Brown of Football Archaeoloogy joined us in 2023 to tell the tale of the first team to win at least one of each of the "Major" Bowl games.

-Transcribed Conversation with Timothy Brown on the Georgia Tech Grand Slam

Hello, my football friend, Darin Hayes, of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to Tuesday at FootballArcheology.com. Timothy P. Brown joins us to talk about another one of his amazing tidbits on football history. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Thank you. I look forward to chatting once again about old-time football.

Yeah, this podcast airs in December, and we're getting into the college football championships, the end of the season, and bowl games.

And that's what we're thinking about as far as college football. And you posted a very interesting story back in June about the Ramblin' Wreck of Georgia Tech. And we'd sure love to hear about this old-time football.

Yeah, so this story is, uh, you know, I called it the, um, I forget exactly what I called it. It was basically about Georgia Tech. Georgia Tech hits football's first Grand Slam, which is your title.

Yeah. So football's first Grand Slam. I knew the Grand Slam.

I didn't know exactly how I worded it, but I also want to point out that they hit the reason; well, part of the contribution to the Grand Slam was that they hit a rare triple as well. And the rare triple was the fact that Georgia Tech, I mean, had three absolute stud coaches right in a row. Those three coaches have handled the team for 63 combined years.

You know, it's just one of those, like, you know, how many, you know, I mean, like, if you just think about, try to think about other places that have had phenomenally, or just very successful coaches, uh, and to have three in a row, I mean, Notre Dame has had some great coaches, but a lot of them didn't really last that long. No, not 63 years between the three of them. Yeah.

I mean, you know, Ohio State and Michigan, and you know, I mean, there's a USC, I mean, name, and whoever you want. There just aren't too many. Maybe Oklahoma or Texas or somebody had, you know, but they've tended to have somebody that just wasn't great in between or didn't last that long. But here are the three for Georgia Tech, which started in 1904 and ran through 1919 with a 102-29-7 record.

So, John Heisman won 70, nearly 78% of his games. So, most football fans have heard of him. Um, he was followed by a guy who played there and then coached under Heisman named, you know, Bill Alexander, who, you know, isn't as, uh, didn't have as great a record.

He had some uneven seasons, but he also had just some absolute stud seasons. So he went 134 and 95 and 15, um, you know, for 0.585, you know, a record. And then he was followed by Bobby Dodd, who, you know, was an assistant under Alexander.

And so Bobby Dodd goes from 1945 to 1966, and he goes 165-64-8. So, for 0.721 percent. So, basically, those three guys from 1904 to 1966 are the three coaches of Georgia Tech, you know, it's just crazy.

So then during, um, so of the three, just from a pure record standpoint, Alexander is the least successful. And yet it was during his time that Georgia Tech, I mean, think about it. He's the least in terms of winning percentage.

And yet, during his time, he won, and they beat Cal in the 1939 Rose Bowl. He beat Missouri in the 1940 Orange Bowl. They lost to Texas in the 1943 Cotton Bowl.

And then they beat Tulsa in the 1944 Sugar Bowl. And so his grand slam was that they were the first team to play in the Rose, the Orange, the Cotton, and the Sugar, which were the four games until, I don't know, uh, 85 ish or something like when the Fiesta started, you know, being considered along those lines as a, you know, in terms of the top four bowl games. So, um, you know, so at the time that, you know, it was, people considered it a big deal that they were the first ones to play in all four.

Now, some teams didn't go to bowl games at all. And conferences that didn't go to bowl games at all. And, you know, they were able to do some things, maybe other teams couldn't, but I don't care what, you know, they were the first ones.

And so, you know, really an impressive feat. Just think about that. What are, I mean, you have to have many things fall into place to be invited to each of those particular bowl games because they're looking for certain criteria each year. You have to fall in that to get an invite first of all, and then to go and beat an opponent who is a worthy opponent that's, you know, looked upon as your equal because they're trying to get the best matchup they can in those games and, you know, and to win each of those.

I mean, that is quite a feat if you really sit there and think about it. Yeah. And I think, you know, these, you know, like last week's podcast, we talked about warriors.

And so this, you know, a couple of these wins occurred during war years. So, they probably chose Southern teams a bit more than they would have otherwise, just to reduce travel and, you know, easier access for their alums to attend the game. But again, make up any scenario you want.

They were still the first ones playing in a game, so it's a big deal. And, you know, they ended up. He stepped down after winning, or no; he then took Georgia Tech to the 45 Orange Bowl.

So he ran through those four, the four we already mentioned. Then he went to the Orange Bowl again in 45. And then he resigned after that.

And Bobby Dodd took over. He can stick it out three more years and try to get the double. Yeah.

Yeah. Hit everyone twice. Man.

Yeah. So, I mean, it is a pretty remarkable record. Alexander was also one of those guys who was just a pretty innovative guy.

I mean, some of the things he did now seem kind of goofy. I've written in the past about him using the reverse QB. And I think he may have used a side-saddle QB at times.

But, you know, the reverse QB took the ball, like had his butt against the center's butt, and then took the snap between his legs, and then tossed it, you know, to a single wing kind of formation, tossed it left or right or backward. But. Yeah, I remember our conversation.

We did a podcast on your side saddle, probably back a year ago. But I remember that. That's, man, that is fascinating.

So, going back 80 years ago, and just actually 100 years ago or more with Heisman, when you think about it, I mean, just a great program. And we don't think about Georgia Tech in that light anymore because there's sort of they're overshadowed by some of their fellow teams that are in that area, you know, Georgia, for one, who's phenomenal the last few years, especially. But you have to look back at some of these teams and give them credit because they had some really strong programs back in that day and the errors with, you know, those three coaches 60 some years.

Wow, that's a tip your hat off to the program directors there. Yeah. And I mean, they played in a lot of big games.

I mean, back in, you know, in the World War One era, you know, Pitt and Georgia Tech came a couple of really big, you know, games that they played kind of national championship consequences, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, they played in the 29 Rose Bowl when, you know, the wrong way Regal ran, the tip California who picked up the ball ran the wrong way. And, you know, it ended up at the end of the day, which is the reason Georgia Tech won the game.

But, you know, so I mean, they were involved in some really, some really big games. And, you know, like you said, not quite as much anymore, but, you know, they still play at a very high level and, you know, great school, all that kind of stuff. Well, Tim, it always amazes me, the stories that you come up with, and you do this daily in your tidbits, just some, you know, maybe not the mainstream of what we think of mainstream football today, you know, very popular from 80 years ago, but, you know, some of these teams that probably should get more attention, like these Georgia Tech teams, and some of the elements that we discussed today with going to the four bowl games, but you're doing this daily.

Why don't you share with the audience how they, too, can participate in reading your daily tidbit? Yeah, so, you know, the easiest thing to do is just go to footballarchaeology.com. And, you know, at the end of every article, there's an opportunity to subscribe. Just hit the button to subscribe and sign up; it's free. And then every day, you'll get an email that, basically, seven o'clock Eastern, you'll get an email story.

Otherwise, you know, you can follow me. I'm still publishing on Twitter, threads, and the Substack app, or you can bookmark the site and show up whenever you want to. Yeah, and I must add that when you go into your Substack on footballarchaeology.com, on your Substack, and you go into the tidbit section, there's a nice little search function there. So if you want to look up, you know, anything else about, you know, coach Bobby Dodds on there, any other articles that you have them in there, it'll take you right to those and give you a nice listing.

You get a nice round, I guess, a full belly of what Bobby Dodds was to football. It's the footballarchaeology.com site. Tim, we really appreciate you coming on here and sharing this.

And we would love to talk to you again next Tuesday about some more great football. Very good. Look forward to it.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

---

Intentional Grounding is not something you see every game, especially in the NFL, where once a QB leaves the pocket, the foul becomes non-existent. The history of the foul is almost as old as the forward pas itself, and our Guest Timothy Brown has written about this football no-no in a recent Tibit titled: How Intentional Grounding Came to Pass How Intentional Grounding Came to Pass

What is Intentional Grounding?

Intentional grounding is a penalty called against the offense when a passer throws a forward pass that meets these two criteria:

-Facing Imminent Loss of Yardage: The passer is facing pressure from the defense and is likely to lose significant yardage if he sacks the ball (takes a knee) or throws it away.

-No Realistic Chance of Completion: The pass is thrown towards an area of the field where there are no eligible receivers in the vicinity, or the receiver has little chance of catching the ball.

-Why is the Rule in Place?

The intentional grounding rule protects quarterbacks from unnecessary hits. Without this rule, quarterbacks under pressure might be more likely to force throws into tight coverage, risking interceptions and injuries.

-Exceptions:

There are a few exceptions to the intentional grounding rule:

-Spike: A quarterback can legally throw the ball directly into the ground to stop the clock (spike the ball) if he begins the throwing motion immediately after receiving the snap. Note this must be a hand to hand snap, as shotgun would make this be intentional grounding.

-Batted Ball: If a defender tips the ball at the line of scrimmage, it's not considered intentional grounding even if there's no receiver in the vicinity.

-NFL rules allow a QB to escape the pocket and void intentional grounding rules.

-Penalty:

The penalty for intentional grounding is a loss of yardage, typically 15 yards from where the passer released the pass. If the pass is intentionally grounding in the end zone, it results in a safety scoring two points for the defense.

---

Football Archaeology takes an in-depth look at a unique down and distance measuring device from the late 1930s called the Honest Headlinesman.

The concept was said to be more accurate on the poorly lined grass fields of the era and would allow for a more "fair and level playing field " for the participants and an easier discernment by officials if the line to gain had been reached.

Football Archaeology has excellent details on the concept and some images of it and its use. Timothy Brown has a nose for the unique stories from football antiquity and can tell a tale to enlighten us of what those in the gridiron past were doing.

---

In the hazy days of early American football, before forward passes soared and helmets resembled leather buckets, a curious rule reigned supreme: the fumble out of bounds. Unlike today's automatic touchback, a loose ball crossing the sidelines triggered a bizarre dance of possession.

Fumbles were not over until they were possessed by a player, even if they went out of bounds. This led to some crazy plays that Timothy P Brown of Football Archaeology discusses.

If the offense fumbled near their own end zone, the opposing team gained the ball at the point of recovery, no matter how deep it sailed out. Imagine the frantic scramble, desperation dives into sideline bleachers, and potential chaos as defensive players chased a wayward pigskin like oversized puppies after a chew toy.

However, if the fumble happened near the opponent's end zone, the offensive team retained possession even if it bounced through the stands and landed on a passing pigeon. This paradoxical scenario rewarded sloppiness near enemy territory, potentially turning fumbles into first downs through sheer serendipity.

This strange rule, abolished in the 1930s, reflected the nascent nature of the sport, where improvisation and quirky quirks abounded. While it introduced an element of slapstick into the game, it also highlighted the ever-evolving nature of football's laws, constantly adapting to the growing complexity and athleticism on the field. So, the next time you see a fumble careen towards the sideline, remember: it could have been a winning lottery ticket in the gridiron gamble of a bygone era.

-Transcription of Timothy Brown on Live-Fumbles-Out Bounds

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And we have another great evening with Timothy P. Brown of Football Archeology, discussing one of his great tidbits that he shares with us each and every evening on Twitter and on email.

Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, thank you, Mr. Hayes. Looking forward to chatting once again about oblate spheroid stuff.

Wow, we're getting into the geometry of the game a little bit. That's right. I got an A in high school geometry.

Did you really? Well, I believe you did because this topic that you have tonight involves a little bit of the geometry of the ball, I'm sure. You never know which way that ball is going to bounce. And you have a very interesting subject of football from yesteryear that we probably wouldn't recognize today.

If we saw this happen and officials let it go, we would be screaming and ripping our hair out from the stands and throwing things at our TV set. So why don't you share with us the topic tonight and the story behind it? Yeah. So the issue here is that when football began, they basically adopted a rule from rugby that when the ball went into touch, what we now call out of bounds, the ball remained live.

So for us now, we think, oh, the ball is out of bounds, so it's dead. Well, no, that wasn't the case. And so, if you think about it, it's comparable to the original rules for scoring a touchdown.

When you got into the end zone, the guy with the ball had to touch the ball down to the ground, which is why we call it a touchdown. And so until he did that, the ball remained live. And so they had much the same rule in place for the ball crossing the boundary line and on the sidelines, not just the end lines or the goal lines, that in order for the ball to become dead, somebody on one of the two teams had to be out of bounds and touch the ball to the ground.

So that's when the ball went dead. So it's just one of those things that we can't fathom. But when you think about it, the consequences of that rule mean that if the ball tumbles out of bounds, there could be obstacles.

Depending on the field, there could be trees. There could be players on your side or on the opposing side. There could be water buckets.

There could be carts and cars and horses and buggies and running tracks. A lot of the fans, you see some of those games where the fans are right on the sidelines. This could really cause some calamity there.

Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of fields. Virtually every field early on, where the sidelines, and I've got a bunch of pictures of these, the sidelines are just ropes.

There's a rope. And even the rule book talks about people behind the ropes. They're talking about fans behind the ropes.

Because they were just roped off, anyway, there's even a great story. In 1892, the University of Chicago took a train across the country, went out to play Stanford a couple of times, and they got a couple of other games in there.

But they were playing Stanford in San Francisco, and the ball went out of bounds and bounced over a fence. And one of the Stanford players would start to go for it. And Chicago had a guy who was a hurdler on the track team, and he hurdled the fence.

And ended up getting the ball before the Stanford guy could. But if you just think about it, in the tidbit itself, I've got some images like you described of the fans and the perimeter. I've got a picture of the University of Maine.

They had a 25-piece band sitting right along the sideline. So the ball could have gone running in there, and the sousaphone or tuba player or piccolo player or whatever could have gotten in the way. Yeah, your image of the Iowa State game with the fans on it.

I think there are fans like five deep all the way around the field, it looks like. I'm surprised that if you were standing on the outside, you wouldn't be able to see any of the players. That's for sure.

Yeah, and if you went and got concessions, there weren't TV screens up there showing you what was going on either. Anyways, all that continued until 1926. And that's when they finally changed the rule.

And at that point, they made it so that the last person to touch it, their team, got possession of it once it was out of bounds. And then later on, it was the last team to possess the ball while in bounds. So initially it was touch, then it became possession before it went out of bounds.

So anyways, it's one of those old-time rules that you just can't believe was in place. But it made sense based on the game's origins. But I just can't imagine some of the things that must have happened.

You know, the guys fighting and everything to get to the ball amid crowds and fans and teammates and whatever. Yeah, it had to be. Now, I just want some clarification on what you said early on.

The rugby term for being in touch, you're saying that's when the man's on the ground touching the ball. That's when the ball's in touch, or when it goes out of bounds, it's in touch. So, out of bounds, I was in touch.

So, the sidelines were called the touchlines. Okay. So, you know, that was just for whatever reason.

I mean, it gets a little bit confusing, too. Just, you know, but so I'm not sure exactly why they called it in touch, but they did. And then, but that was for the sidelines.

That's the out-of-bounds side. And then, you know, once you cross the goal line, you still, you know, old-time films and even in rugby today, you sometimes you see the guy, he'll kneel down and plant the ball to the ground. That's what was the case in football, too.

You had to, you had to for the touchdown. I was just trying, I was looking more from the sideline, what we call the sideline point of view, seeing in touch it, seeing if there was a correlation to try to understand it better.

So, okay. Hey, that's great stuff, as always. You know, that's definitely a fascinating thing.

And it's a way of really looking foreign to us today. As we said, in the beginning, for a ball to go out of bounds, people, you know, 22 guys were chasing it through the trees, the crowds, the bleachers, and everything else. Yeah.

We remember, you know when this stuff was first happening, and when it was really early on, the rest didn't have whistles yet. So, you know, it was all just, you know, they were fighting in there, and somehow, they figured out who had the ball. Yeah.

Officiating nightmare. Thank God I didn't officiate back then. So that's rude.

Well, Tim, that is some great stuff, as always. And your tidbits are coming out each and every day. Tell us how to share those.

And why don't you tell us also about your book, you know, that's still on sale? You know, the hot, hot hike a little bit about that, where people can get that too. Yeah.

So, you know, you can. The easiest thing is to subscribe, you know, go to footballarchaeology.com, and you know, there is a free process to subscribe. And that'll get you an email every night with the story. And again, you don't have to read it that night.

You can read it two weeks later, or you can read whatever you want. But at least you have access to it. And if you want to read it, you've got it.

Otherwise, follow me on Twitter. And then, you know, the book is available. All three of my books are available on Amazon.

So hot, hot hike, you know, either search for that or search Timothy P. Brown. There are a couple of Timothy P. Browns, but I'm the only one who writes books on football. So you should be able to find me.

And, you know, in particular, if you're somebody, you know, if you've got a Kindle Unlimited plan, you know, you can read it for free. So, you know, it's just like streaming anything else. You know, nowadays you just, it's available.

So, of course, I'm more than happy to sell you a paper copy, which is. Yeah, that's great to have too. It's a great reference, especially, you know, hike and when football became football are great reference points.

I use it all the time to look up things, and people have questions, or I have questions. It's an excellent source. So, it was very well done tonight.

We thank you for your time and for sharing your knowledge, Tim. And we'll talk to you again next Tuesday. Hey, look forward to it.

See you in a week.

-Frequently Asked Questions About an American Football Field:

-How long is a football field? A football field from goal line to goal line is 100 yards long with two ten-yard deep end zones. Want to know more about the evolution of the playing field, you are in the right place as we covered it here:Field Size Evolution.

-How wide is a football field? Most levels of American football play on a field that is 53.3 yards wide.

---

Alright, settle in folks, because Timothy Brown here is about to tell you a tale. Not of knights and dragons, mind you, but of something far more thrilling – touchdowns! You see, I've been bleedin' Kohawk crimson for years now, and this year, the Coe College football team's offense is a sight to behold. We ain't talkin' trick plays or fancy footwork, no sir. This was a well-oiled machine, churnin' out points like a farmer shuckin' corn.

This all comes from Tim's original Tidbit, Coe College’s Point-A-Minute Team of 1914

From the pinpoint passes of the quarterback to the battering ram runs of the tailback, this offense is a symphony of destruction on the gridiron. So, buckle up and get ready to hear about the juggernaut that's taken the conference by storm – the Coe College high-scoring offense!

-Transcribed Conversation on Point a Minute team of Coe College with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. We're going to stare through that portal today and go back into some football archaeology because it's Tuesday, and we have our friend Timothy Brown from FootballArchaeology.com. Tim Brown, welcome back to the Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin, good to see you once again.

Looking forward to talking about Coe College. Yeah, Coe College. And I wasn't aware of this; there was another point in a minute, team.

You had a great post about that on September 17th. You know, when I think about point-a-minute teams, you know, of course, the famous Michigan teams from the early 20th century come to mind under fielding age, Yost. And I did not realize there was another one called a point-a-minute team.

Yeah, so some, you know, listeners aren't aware. Coe College is a small liberal arts college in Iowa. And, you know, they were certainly aware, or at least the reporters were certainly aware, of fielding Yoast point a minute team at Michigan.

And so part of what I did in the article is just to point out that they didn't score a point a minute. They were they were they were under it, but they scored a lot of points, you know. And so this Coe College team ends up having a similar season.

They were just scoring all kinds of points. You know, they played other small colleges in Iowa and they played one game in Illinois. They also played their second game of the season was against Iowa State.

So they lost two. But, you know, they seem to have played respectively or respectively against them. So they you know, they kind of did their non-conference season.

And then they're during the conference. They just started playing teams, and they were kind of blown out of the water. I mean, they won one game.

It's like one hundred and twenty-one to nothing or some silly thing like that. But, you know, they just ended up. You know, just a phenomenal year.

And so then they started, you know, they started being touted as the point in a minute team, you know, obviously copying, copying Michigan. But so it's just kind of, you know, a team that basically few people are aware of or care about. You know, that's that's kind of the life of small college football.

But, you know, I love being able to bring those in, you know, here and there where there's something interesting, something compelling about a team like Coe. You know, I also happen to know one of the things that I use as illustrations for the blog and for my books, and I collect old football-related postcards. And so some time back, I had acquired one with Coe College, you know, this Coe College season.

And then I never really looked into it very much. Once, I said, oh, this might be something worthwhile, you know, a for a tidbit. And I got it, you know, started looking into it.

And there's this whole story about the point a minute. And, you know, two of the teams that they beat that year, the college no longer exists. One merged into, you know, merged with Coe.

They had this kind of incestuous thing going on with some of the Iowa schools. But anyway, it's just, you know, I think, just kind of a fun story about a team that kind of came out of nowhere and just was kicking everybody's butt, which is, you know, always fun. But, you know, those are that's the the sweet spot of your tidbits.

You know, these things that many of us that are in the football know are not aware of. And you bring it back to the forefront and make us aware of it and preserving the football history. And that's I mean, that's the magic of what you do with football archaeology.

And we really appreciate that. And, you know, especially sharing somebody like Coe College that probably most of us have never heard of. Yeah, no.

Well, I appreciate your your your comments. But yeah, I mean, I just think it's. You know, it's just interesting to see kind of how how they did things back then.

And again, it's just the whole evolution of the game. It's just there's, you know, there were bits, you know, there were spurts at times, but a lot of it's just really slow progression. And then, you know, the game cast certain elements aside.

We don't need this anymore. And, you know, we end up with the game we have today, which is, you know, as far as I'm concerned, you know, especially offensively, it's it's the most exciting game we've ever had. Right.

I mean, there are just so many different options and so many different things that teams can do now. Back then, you know, not so much the case is, you know, pretty much run it up the gut football. You know, some teams did some other things in passing, but a lot of it was pretty old school.

Yeah. And that's just so glad that you're sharing that with us and, you know, collecting those things and recording them for everybody to enjoy. So, you know, if listeners, if you would like to be aware of what Tim's coming up with, some of these antiquated items from football or teams that no longer exist or maybe had their day, you know, in the sun and it's no more.

You know, Tim is going to share with us right now how you can find him and find his tidbits and subscribe. Yeah. So my my site is football archaeology dot com.

It is on it's a substack site. So if you happen to be a substack user, then you can find it through that mechanism mechanism as well. But just football archaeology dot com.

I also post everything on the site. I posted on Twitter as well. But, you know, the advantage of subscribing is that you'll then get a newsletter.

Everything that I post becomes an email sent to your inbox on essentially a nightly basis, seven o'clock Eastern. And then my the long form articles kind of come out in a little bit more random order. But that's where that's where to find me.

If you if you enjoy it, great. Whichever way you want to access it, have at it. All right, Tim, Tim, thank you very much for sharing your footballarchaeology.com items with us.

And we'll talk to you again next week.

OK, very good. Thanks, sir.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.