Football History

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Have you ever stopped to think about the iconic flip-down markers used to signal first downs in football? Today on the podcast, we delve into the fascinating history of this sideline staple with special guest historian Timothy Brown!

Timothy Brown of FootballArchaeaology.com a renowned expert on the evolution of sports equipment, joins us to explore.

Today's episode and discussion is based on Tim's original post titled:Col. Roy C. Baker And The Flip-Style Down Marker .

We also have this available in podcast form The Flip-Style Down Marker Innovation of Colonel Baker.

So please sit down and relax and enjoy the gridiron lore!

Flip-Style Down Marker with Timothy Brown

Hello my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal of positive football history, and welcome to another Tuesday where we have our friend Timothy P Brown, a footballarchaeology.com, to tell us about another aspect of football history. Maybe He's not mainstream and we don't know much about but we're gonna learn something today Tim. Welcome back to the Pigpen.

Hey, it's very good to see you, and I think this Podcast will Have people flipping out.

Well, I'm definitely flipping out about it because you put your subject matter that you're gonna talk about today as something That's near and dear to my heart being a former official something that I used quite a bit You had an article back in May called Colonel Roy Baker and the flip style downed Marker Now this is something I'm very familiar with in my early days of officiating and love to hear the history of it.

Yeah well, you know, so Depending on when the listeners came of age in terms of their football fandom You know if they're some kind of young and they might only remember the louvered down markers where you know the guy the dial-a-downs Yeah, the dial-a-downs exactly and But before that There were a whole, you know, there are a number of different Variations on you know first there were chains and then they you know created down markers that or down boxes Which initially were just boxes, you know on a stick with a one two, three or four on the four sides of the box And so but none of those were entirely satisfactory because you know Depending on which direction you had the down Marker pointing then somebody was If they were in a different position in the stadium or on the field, they they saw a different number So there was always some confusion There and this isn't a lot of times in the days before there were really effective scoreboards that would tell you the down so There's this guy Roy C Baker Who was a 1932 South Dakota grad? Who's an ROTC there? He was a cheerleader. I didn't find any information about him playing Football in high school or college, but I suspect he played in high school.

He was from a small town in South Dakota. So I'm sure they needed every athlete that they could get, you know. Seems like a fairly athletic guy, so, you know, he graduates from South Dakota in 32, and he taught for a couple of years in, You know, South Dakota High School, but then he moves to Wyoming, and he at each of those places he's you know, these are small Small community high schools. He's the football coach and the basketball coach and, you know, pretty successful in both. You know, sometimes a little tough in the first year or two that he was coaches, But you know, he had some pretty good teams, especially in basketball, actually. But you know, for whatever reason, in the late 30s, he became dissatisfied with the way that the down boxes worked in Football, and Football had tried a lot of different solutions.

They were different. You know, now we're using chips, I guess, but they, you know, They tried different things like surveying kind of tools to line it up properly, And you know, some kind of crazy things to try to get, you know, accurate accuracy but though but His solution was much more focused on the fans and the players on the field than just the visibility of the down on the down Marker, so he's the guy who came up with the flip-style down And you know, he kind of prototyped it just using sheets of paper And if you think about it And I can wrote about it. I kind of went through the sequence in the written article, But it's like okay, so the on one side of the sheet has to be Matched with a two on the other side and then a two match with three and a three-match the four and then a four-match with a one in order for the numbers to correspond so both sides are displaying either one or two or three or four and So he figured that out it's like so obvious to anybody who looks at it, you know like And it's like why didn't anybody think of that and the numbers got to be upside down to the number on the other side Because you're flipping it over. Yeah.

Yeah, so, but I mean, he Used a couple of sheets of paper to figure it out, and boom. He made it so then he had, you know, he started having them produced in metal at a local, you know, sheet metal shop and Painting them up, and then he started selling them, you know, no locally, but he also sold one to the University, Nebraska So that was maybe his breakthrough where you know people start noticing this thing and And he files for a patent in 41 he gets the patent in like April of 42 Like two weeks later, you know, I said earlier he was an ROTC in college and he he was In the Army Reserves throughout that time, you know so World War two had just started so he gets called up So now he you know, it's gives up his teaching job joins, you know heads into the army and While he was in the army during World War two others started producing His flip style down markers and then selling them through the big sporting goods companies So he gets back to the States, you know, he was in Europe during the war. He gets back to states, and You know, They're using these flip-style down markers all over the place.

So he goes to some lawyers, and they basically say, well, You know, this isn't like a high dollar value product. You're probably not gonna get much out of suing these people because he had told that he told the companies, Hey, you're violating my patent, and they had said sue me, right? So, you know, he ended up just deciding not to pursue it for whatever reason but mostly on the lawyer's advice, So he never really got anything out of it. You know, he came up with this concept, which is brilliant in its simplicity, right? And really, the only recognition that he got was in 83 when the Redskins were in We're heading into the Super Bowl. He was profiled in the Washington Post with an article, you know, basically telling the story that he had, you know about what had happened to him.

So that article is helpful to me. But what, you know, obviously I had to go figure out his background, the high schools and all that kind of stuff, but the other thing just about this story is it's one of those where a lot of times some of my favorite stories are this came about because I mean I kind of you know, I've written a bunch of stuff in the past about these various downmarket attempts and but this one came about because An in-law relative of his Reached out to me and said hey, do you know about this guy this Roy C Baker? I was like, no, never heard of him, and But then once I do, you know, once I googled or used newspapers.com to look for That Washington Post article popped up, and then it was just like, you know, Katie bar the door, you know so anyways I just I love the stories where it's connected to somebody's relative a son a daughter grandchild whatever Who's like? You know, trying to figure out what the truth is behind their Ancestor story, or they're Giving the guys some recognition for a great invention to get credited for run paid for, But you know, really, I would guess from at least the early 50s, you know from then on Until the dial-a-down came around and that was like 87 or so I think is when that first came up the flip style down Marker was the downmarket I mean, you didn't see anything else on a football field So especially when they went to plastic, I know I know when I first started officiating in the 80s We had metal ones. There were some plastic ones out there But the plastic ones were great, especially like in our area when you started officiating you would be for varsity games You would hold the chains and do the downmarkers for the varsity game watching the more senior officials do it So you get those cold days in like October November and you're I mean you're holding it a metal pole So your hand gets close you have a glove on you're trying to do it one-handed But the the plastic ones are nice because you could just shake the the pat the pole a little bit and it would flip it You know, you could if you did just write it up and you'd have to use both hands to flip the thing around So we love the plastic ones Yeah, well, but you know, I mean I think anybody who watched Football and For whatever 30 40 year period You know the flipped style downmarker was the only thing out there Yeah, I mean, I I don't even remember seeing a dial down till probably the mid 90s in our area You know, everybody still had the plastics and especially lower level games.

They still use the plastics. I think yeah because those would have been more expensive. Yeah, And it's like, do you really need to replace something that works because it still works? You know, the flip-style would still work just fine, so now going back in before the flip style when they had the Traditional boxes, you know when I've we've all seen images of them, you know, I know there are some collectors on the vintage Collector community that we're in that some guys have them Walks and like you said you did they were down done they did they should where did they show the correct down? There was it to the players on the field point. It pointed to the field of a second down to two facing the field. That's right.

Okay, and so, you know, the funny thing originally when they first were doing the down rod, initially was just a rod, and the Headlinesman actually Carried it around with him on the field, and I, you know, So I've got pictures out there. I did another tidbit on this, but with a bunch of pictures of guys running up and down the field these rods, so originally, they didn't have any kind of box or anything. It was just, you know, that it allowed them to kind of stick it into the ground, and You know, you'd think they would have left it there. But anyway, they'd pick it up.

They'd pick it up and run with it, and then they started putting the boxes on the poles, but those were still, you know, like maybe up to waist height, you know, they just weren't very tall. Then finally they put them up a top a pole that like rose above The assistant linesman's head, you know, so eventually it got turned over to the assistant linesman and you know, they would You know, so I've got in this tidbit I've got a picture of of one of the the older stuff ones that is One that's below kind of below the waist version and then another one That's about as high as a flip down Marker would have been or even the current dial it down So, you know at least that was visible to fans, you know the the short ones, you know I mean, they were really only intended for the players and the officials because Nobody else could see it All right, I guess maybe the opposing sideline could see it in the opposing fans but you know, whoever was across the field could see it, but Nobody behind that official would be able to see it you know just a little Sidebar taken going into the world of officiating a lot of people don't know this but the officials The box is important because it's more more so for the spot of the ball and we make you know We all try to make sure because the headlinesman has his back to the chains in the box most of the time So it's usually the line judge, which is on the opposite sideline who's facing him. Let's tell them, Hey, it's you know, you're showing a two, and it's third down because officials every official has a rubber-like piece of elastic it goes on your wrist and it goes over your fingers, and People do it.

You know, some guys would do it. You know your fourth if you put the rubber band on your four fingers first down; you put it on your middle finger. Second down, I did it in did a group of fingers, you know I had the rubber band around one finger first down two fingers It was second down, and that and so you're really, and that's why we're whole the officials are holding up a number Signaling to the other officials. So we're all on the same page. Hey, it's second down. Yeah, I got second down, and then you look at the box and say, okay.

Yes, you're showing second down, So that's just how the officials do it. So I'm I don't know what they did prior to having those, you know when they had that rod, I'm sure they probably maybe did something unique like that, or I heard Some older guys that I did it started in the 50s when I started officiating they used to hold pebbles in their hands I don't know what they did with the pebble, you know they switched hands or something and did I I'm not coordinated enough to hold pebbles and You know blow a lanyard whistle that they used to have around their neck Yeah, I'd be kind of too much but that's how the officials do the downs most the times with a piece of elastic on their fingers Yeah, well, you know they like in the old catalogs. There's, You know, for a long time, they sold little, you know, hand clicker things That would have down in the distance, you know, much like an umpire would use to keep track of balls and strikes But you know, for a long time, you know again before Official signals became, you know fairly standardized You know a lot of times whoever was posting stuff on the scoreboard They were kind of guessing, you know, whether there had been a first down or not because sometimes it wasn't clear You know, the officials didn't always signal things. So the way that we just assume they're going to today So there, you know, there are games where they had the wrong score on the scoreboard, you know, for a long time, and so it was, You know, Thankfully as much as I dislike sometimes hearing the referee talk during the games it's Communications is much better today than it has been in the past Yeah, and the majority of them are pretty good at talking.

Yeah, conforming things. There are some guys that say some things. You're like one, so why would you even say that? Who knows? I just want to watch the game and not have to hear the explanation. It's not really a criticism of the officials themselves, and some of them actually have a really good sense of humor, right? Tim, you know, that is a great piece. You know, to talk about, you know, some officiating equipment, something that all of us look at when we go to a game, and you know, sometimes on television, we see it come into our view. You can see the downs so it's just kind of cool to to hear the history of that and Give some some love to the guy that invented the one probably lasted the longest of all the Down markers that flip style which you know I think everybody's familiar that's watched Football at least the last 20 years or so So, you know great piece of history there and you have some little unique pieces like this a lot on your website maybe you can share with the Folks how they can tune into some of these pieces that you have sure You know, it's just easiest thing is go to footballarchaeology.com subscribe and You know, you'll get an email every time that I yes issue a new You know have a new post you'll get an email into your box with that content alternatively follow me on Twitter on Substack or on threads You can be one of about six or seven people who follows me on threads if you want to And or you know just go on out and hit the site whenever you want, you know, whatever you want to I'll also just take a moment here to some put in a plug I've got a new book coming out called a history of the Football. So, as far as I know, it is the first book to look at the history of American Football and Canadian Football. I covered their ball as well. So, you know, it takes us back to the rugby days and then all the way up until the present. How did it change shape, size, colors, and stripes? Materials etc.

So it's just kind of a fun little read. Yeah, and I'm coming soon to an Amazon site near you. Okay, that's what I was gonna ask you if you had a date set for release, but I still do that. I do not know, but we'll get some information from you when it officially comes out. We'll make sure we share that with everybody, too. But I'm looking forward to that. Do you have any place where people can pre-order anything? I think there's some technique.

I'm running into a technical issue right now. It's just related to the cover. You know, I think in order to allow pre-order, you have to have the cover ready, okay, and so All right, so the answer is no problem, we'll just keep watching, and we'll keep posting when we know things on pigskin dispatch and keep watching Tim's Social media and everything and in footballarchaeology.com, and we'll figure out what's coming real soon So real exciting book so can't wait to get my hands on it.

So Tim, we really appreciate you coming on here and sharing, you know, aspects of this, You know, flip down and the dial it down in the box and its history, and I Love to talk to you about another aspect of football history next week.

Yeah, I will be here.

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Footballs seem like they are suited for almost any player to use, and they currently are. That was not always the case, though. There was a time when footballs were indeed designed with handedness in mind. In this post, we'll delve into the history of handed footballs, explore the reasons behind their creation, and discuss why they eventually fell out of favor in professional football.

Timothy P. Brown of Football Archaeology visits us in this episode to share the story of the righty and southpaw editions of the pigskin.

If you love the football talk on history and evolution, then you should check out the original article Tim wrote : Right- and Left-Handed Footballs.

Transcript of Conversation of Right and Left Handed Footballs

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of Pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. it is Tuesday, and Everybody who follows us knows What happens on Tuesday. We have our friend Timothy P Brown of football archaeology calm Join us for another glimpse back in football history and learning something great Tim.

Welcome back to the pig pen. Hey there, good to be with you this evening. I look forward to chatting a little bit about football and Stuff like that. Yeah, you are very Festive between your background and the hat. Is that the Chicago Cardinals or Chicago Marines? I mean, that is correct. So this is the background from 1905, 1905, or 1906. I think it's 1905 Spalding's. You know, their official football guide, And so at least for our purpose today, I'm gonna say it's from the 1905 book, and Yes, since they have the all-American team for 1904.

It looks like, Yeah, So it's got to be that that's pretty and who was National Champions in 1905, in 1905, Michigan Chicago Maroons? Oh, were they okay? Cuz you gave it away to me, and I didn't even get me over the head with a bat, They beat Michigan in the last game of the season On a play that would no longer count the next year because, you know, they changed some rules But they won two to nothing So do nothing. Okay, I think we talked about that game in one of our episodes, and I think we did it.

We did a store or we did a Podcast on it, and I've also, You know, here and there, like on Twitter or something, somebody will say, you know, If you could go back in time and watch one game, what would it be for me? That would be the game. Yeah, Just think about the coaches from that game, Amos Alonzo Stag and Fielding Yost on Michigan's sideline. Oh, yeah. What's his name? You know, his longtime coach at Carnegie, Stephen Walter Stephan? You had Hugo Bezdek, And that's just the Chicago guys, you know, they're up, you know, right? Yeah, Great, great story.

We'll have to rekindle that link for that Podcast episode again so people can enjoy it. That's a good one to listen to, but tonight we have a topic That you wrote on a recent tidbit, and it's called right and left-handed footballs, which sort of caught me by surprise. I remember when I read it back in February when you put it on like, Wow, left-handed football; so it would never have thought so once you tell us a little bit about that tonight. Yeah, so, you know, it's Kind of a, I think it's a fun story just because, you know, When we think about balls being handed, you know, left I mean baseball gloves, There's left hand and right-handed and you know, or any kind of glove basically, I guess You know, but balls Especially round balls. There's tends to be you know You can throw it pick it up or whatever with your right or left hand Bowling balls are the only ones that I really can think of that aren't You know because you gotta stick your thumb in there and fingers and whatnot, so those are left and right-handed I believe but They're drilled right to the individual so yeah so so anyways, and then you know footballs obviously aren't round but You know, so we tend to think of them as universal anyways, right and for the most part that has been the case, but when When they started using footballs in the evening They started painting the balls that that's you know early 1900s as far as I know stag in Chicago actually were the first people That I've got documented, you know documentation that they they painted a ball white Because they had late classes and so they couldn't practice until it was dusk and yada yada So so they start painting balls and then other people picked up on that And you know generally the paint on the ball was Slipperier than Just the tanned leather so that was always a bit of a problem and But you know, they're just worth other than practice and then the really pretty occasional night games People didn't really need to use Painted balls but as as lighting got better and in the 30s in particular is really when lighting Kind of took off right and So, you know high schools were playing under the lights and a lot of colleges, you know added lighting And I think I think that I don't really have You know documented Evidence of this, but I believe that that was so for sure That's when striping came on to the on the balls. Now.

I think the primary reason for that was because If you striped the ball at the end, it wasn't a slippery as a fully painted ball So and they also there was also this whole issue of you know, what I call the camouflaging effect so that You know a lot of teams were still wearing the brown Friction strips or ovals on their jerseys and so a brown ball against the brown Patch could be Kind of hidden People were there teams are starting to wear white jerseys then Stanford was one of them and you know, there were others but so then a white painted ball against the white jersey, you know was problematic so anyways, they started striping them and again, I think it's both the slipperiness and then the So it's a functionality reason and then this camouflaging effect And so, you know, so it's just one of those things where like we know where the stripes go on the ball Right, right Everybody knows it's like two inches to two and a quarter inches in from the tip of the ball and yada You know, I mean, it's a set place and So, you know, we're used to that because that's the only thing we've ever known and yet if you go back and look at the balls of the 30s and into the 50s Originally a lot of the stripes were closer to the laces They had double striping And the you know striping in a couple different patterns they had stripes one or two manufacturers put out balls striped longitudinally rather than You know Latitudinally So anyways, it's just one of those things where you know, it's just Kind of a fun thing where You know, how did they figure this out? And so eventually, but by, you know, the early 1950s, guys like Otto Graham were complaining that the stripe on the ball just happened to hit exactly where he put his thumb. When he, you know, put his hand on the ball, and so, you know, he would complain about it, and then people like John Brody a little bit later. He'd scrape Scrape the paint off the balls that he was gonna use because that was still when teams supplied their own balls, and you know things like that, so eventually, You know, there were enough complaints about this at what the NFL did in around You know in the late 60s the NFL eliminated the stripe on the Underside of the ball. So, you know, each ball traditionally has four panels.

So on the panel Where the quarterbacks where a right-handed quarterbacks thumb would go, They got rid of the stripe on, you know on Well, it's on two different panels because it can hold the ball this way or that way, right, you know and so So if you look at balls from that era, there's a missing stripe on On two of the different two of the panels only have one stripe rather than two And you know two bottoms two bottom panels So then what you know, so Everybody is happy with that and then these two nimrods one called Kenny Stabler and the other Named Bobby Douglas who played for the Bears. They were left-handed, so they showed up. They're like, hey, you know these balls make sense for right-handed quarterbacks. What about us, right? Give me a little bit of love, and so, you know, Davis of Oakland complained about it, and then, in the preseason of 1970, the NFL provided left-handed balls in addition to right-hand balls. So then as an official, the official had to be, You know, They would mark the balls, and I think they just use like a magic marker and they put R or L on the balls To designate that it's a right or left-handed ball and depending on which quarterback was in the game that's the ball that they used and So, I mean, it's just you know, just added to the work that the officials had to deal with They had to inspect more balls, you know all that Kind of Stuff, right? And then somebody finally had the idea. You know, the NFL continued with their right and left-handed balls until 1976, at which point they dropped stripes, right? So before that, they'd use a stripe for night games, but the plain ball for day games, so then in 1975, the NFL or the NCAA Adopted the They adopted the ball that had no striping on the bottom panels Right.

So that's the way it is today if you look at an NCAA ball or stripes on the top two panels, the ones that had joined the laces, But there's no striping on the bottom panels, and this the CFL, on the other hand, They have stripes to go that encircle the ball so So I've always Kind of made the little joke that you know Apparently even though the CFL primarily has Canadian or has American quarterbacks in that league They somehow managed to throw spirals in Canada with a fully striped ball That American quarterbacks can't do when they're in America. So, you know, it's one of those things. I think a lot of times that's stuff. There's as much branding as anything else. You know, it's like CFL wants to have a distinctive ball, and That's one way to do it.

But you know, I don't know. I just think it's Kind of a funny little story. It definitely is the one thing that sort of made me think and I had to keep looking over It's like I have a high school ball.

That's Got the half stripes like you're talking about on the top two panels of the panels that touch the strings, And I'm sitting there thinking, okay, if the big thing was with the Brody and autogram of their thumb resting on it, Why would they put the stripes on that side of the ball? You would think their thumb would be Touching because their fingers would be on the strings, or their thumb would be on one of those two panels, right-handed or left-handed. You would think it almost makes more sense If that was the case; the stripes would be on the bottom two panels that aren't touching. The thumbs gonna rest on the bottom panels on the bottom panels so here is an arena football that one of my sons grabbed at some point. Most Davis to sign it, but So no striping, but if my hand, It's gonna be tough with the way this thing is working. But basically, you know your stripe or your fingers. Okay, so you're I got Okay, and then my thumb is down here on the bottom panel, okay I see I understand that, and if I'm a lefty, so my thumb is on this hand because I'm a righty Lefty, my thumb is on this panel over here.

It does go on the bottom panel. Okay, I'm sorry. You know, I have recently released the history of football in the book. I have images that I got from the Heritage Not Heritage Foundation, but you know, heritage auctions. They had sold a right-handed football, and they sold an NFL right-handed football. That sold a while back, and they gave me permission to, you know, to use those images in the book. Oh, nice. Yeah, So We'll come back to that in a second here, But I have another question. As I was thinking here now, a few weeks ago, You talked about how we had the helmet trickeration episode where that sort of spawned The markings on the helmet so that it would not look like a ball, and you know, you're so we're the stripes on the ball about the same time as the putting Decor on the helmets to make it so they didn't look good.

Yeah, so just to clarify, that helmet trickeration Story that we talked about was from like 1905 Now, and the striping on the helmets didn't kick in until, I Want to say like, 35 or something like that Anyways, you know, it was I think it was in the 30s, but it was for the same reason you know it was because people were There's a running back who would take throw his helmet his brown leather helmet off and to simulate a fumble As far so the first story that I first documentation I found of anybody adding stripes to a ball came in a BYU versus it would be Northern Colorado now and they had a game where one of the teams I think was BYU's wearing white shirts jerseys and Northern Colorado was gonna wear had brown pants that more or less matched the color of the ball, and so they Kind of got into a little bit of a peeing match on that and The the only way they could settle it was to put stripes on the ball So and maybe somebody else's done did it before that but that's the first story. I came across evidence of that happening. So Yeah, so it's it was Kind of. I'm gonna say 33 or something in that Kind of range. So, right in the same middle that decade, then for both interesting.

Okay. Yeah, and then it became, you know, So it's funny, you know, there's some inventions like that that the the manufacturers don't really pick up for a while. But that was one where pretty quickly there were balls available From the manufacturers that were striped or painted and painted and stripped because the white ones would have black stripes The brown ones would have white stripes. There were orange balls with black stripes, Yellow, you know, and ironically enough.

That's your favorite decade when they had the Uglies uniforms, According to some of your writings. Yes Yeah, so there was a lot of eye candy in the mid-30s for football Unf.ortunately, there aren't as many color photos from that period That I can use as Evidence, but some of them, even the black and white it, 's pretty clear how ugly they are Maybe some of those new modern AI apps that color in you know, your old family photos are in black and white and everything and they look pretty good So maybe some of that will help us to augment the history here Played around with some of those things and I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I want to be able to show using AI Images, I thought I thought earlier when you were going reaching back for the football. I saw a box of 64 Crayola's back there. So maybe, oh Wait, we can't. We can't see anything back there.

We just see you disappear into your back. Hey, I wanted to get you thinking a little bit, but Tim, you alluded to it a little bit that you have a book out Yeah on this very subject, and once you tell us a little bit about the book Yeah, you know, it's just so I'll just be real quick. But you know what I found is, You know, I've now got, you know, Coming up on a thousand articles on my football archaeology site, And I had two or three books that I published earlier on football. And so, you know, I've got there's Kind of information scattered all over the place I wanted to so I'm starting a series of books to Kind of condense or consolidate information on Specific topics and so the first one that I did was on the history of the football. So it just looks at Like where did the ball come from? How did it get its shape? Why why is it shaped? Why does have this? prolate spheroid shape You know, why is it constructed the way it's constructed? How did it change over time? Why did it change over time? You know, what were some of the influences when did it get smaller thinner? Etc.

And so, you know as a transition from rugby to football so anyways, just Kind of tells the story of all of those changes and You know, it's just a fun, you know, I think it's fun little read that Kind of just goes into as far as I know It's the first book that looks at you know, the history of the football and maybe that should tell me something But I you know, I think it was Kind of a fun topic No, no, it's definitely a fun topic and I appreciate you. You're letting me have have an advanced copy to read it and it's a great read folks and Definitely want to get a copy of that and Tim as long as we're plugging it. How can people get their hands on the book? Yeah, it's available on on Amazon and I don't know if it will be immediately available through like Walmart and Barnes & Noble, but I'll just tell you I make the most money if you buy it from Amazon I'll make as much money if you buy it from the other sources, but you know, if that's what you need to do Have at it, but it's it's available In you know paperback.

It's 135 pages. So, you know pretty quick read So it's available in paperback Kindle so, you know ebook it's now available on audio So if you prefer to consume in the car, it's not my beautiful voice. It's some, you know artificial voice But it sounds pretty good.

And then And if you you know, if you have Kindle Unlimited, you've got that subscription in the books free so My second favorite f-word free Yeah Kind of like, you know, it's like Spotify the artists still get paid if you listen to your music on Spotify, but just not as much As if you buy it straight up, yeah, well

Tim we appreciate it Of course folks you can visit Tim on his website footballarchaeology.com Check out his tidbits like the one that we talked about tonight and more that he has a thousand articles Like he said so

Tim we thank you for joining us and we will talk to you again next Tuesday.

Very good. Thanks, sir

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In the rich tapestry of American football, where strategy and athleticism intertwine, there are moments when innovation pushes the boundaries of the game. One such instance is the gadget play known as the "Helmet Toss," a daring maneuver that once captivated audiences with its audacious flair. Introduced in the early days of the college game, the play involved a player taking off their helmet. While it showcased the creativity and risk-taking spirit that drives the sport, the play's inherent dangers and unpredictability led to its eventual ban by league officials. Football Archaeology.com's Timothy Brown joins us to discuss a brief yet memorable role in football history, illustrating how the pursuit of innovation can both challenge and reshape the very rules of the game.

If you love the football talk on the history and evolution, then you check out the original article Tim wrote Helmet-Tossing Trickeration.

Also check out the podcast version of our chat at They Tried This Football Gadget Play With the Helmet! Pigskin Dispatch Podcast.

-Transcribed Toss leather Helmet Trickeration with Tim Brown

Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes at PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to another edition where we get to visit Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com on a Tuesday and talk about some gridiron from yesteryear and some great aspects of the game. And Tim's got some great stories today in our edition.

Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Good to see you.

And what could I use as a dad joke? I think I'm out of luck. I don't think I have anything. Yeah, I think you're tricked out.

Yeah, that's... I figured that's what you were setting yourself up for. But of course, Tim... Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Well, I was just going to say that I was being the, you know, the straight man in this little comedy routine. And usually, those don't work out so well when you're the straight man, and I'm telling the jokes. Your delivery is much better than mine.

Of course, we're trying to segue into kind of very poorly, I might add, into Tim's great article that he wrote back in July 5th called The Helmet Tossing Trickeration, which, you know, sounds like a mouthful here. And I'm sure we'll have a few more laughs and learn a lot about some football here with this story. Yeah, so I will take a moment; hopefully, in the very near future, my next book, A History of the Football, will be released and available for sale by Football History Enjoying Public.

Anyways, one of the things that I cover in that book is, you know, when and why stripes arrived on the ball. And so stripes basically came, you know, appeared on footballs for two reasons. One is that they were added to help people see the ball when they played night games or when they practiced at dusk.

You know, a lot of times you just would paint a ball white or yellow, but those were slick and slippery. And so they, you know, adding a stripe, you know, they thought would allow, would cause less problems with, you know, the slickness of the ball. So part of it, white stripe or a black stripe on a white ball was just to help people see at night.

But the other thing that, the other reason was to eliminate kind of a camouflage effect. And so, you know, the stripes got added in the 20s, mostly in the 30s. But, you know, back then teams were just starting to wear white jerseys on a fairly regular basis.

Stanford was one of those teams. But so if you used a white ball at night, it was like, okay, well, the opponent was like, well, we can't see the ball because you got white jerseys. And then back, and the same thing kind of happened with the brown ball.

Teams, not many teams wore brown or tan jerseys, but almost everybody was wearing pants that were earth tones. They were khaki. So they were, you know, they were the khaki color or they were brown, or they were, you know, some kind of a greenish brownish blob.

And so it would sometimes be hard to see the ball against that background. And so, and they were also, a lot of teams were wearing, you know, that there were friction strips, but before the friction strips, they'd wear those like pieces of leather that were kind of oval looking on their jerseys. And so, so anyways, for those reasons, it was sometimes hard, you know, you'd lose sight of the ball because of the uniform that the, that the opponent was wearing.

So, so that was a problem. And in that time, there was also some trickeration that was going on. This is in the 20s and 30s, but there was another, there was an older trickeration that had occurred back in, in 1909, which is really the focus of this tidbit.

It's just taken me a little while to get there. So back in 1909, Virginia Tech and North Carolina were playing a game and Virginia Tech had three brothers named, well, their last name was Hodgson. And one of the guys was E.R. Hodgson, and he was the right guard.

Vivian Hodgson ends up, you know, scoring the first TD in the game and E.R., the guard, moves back to be the kicker. This is not him, but you know, figured I'd put a kicker out here. And so, you know, he converts the, converts the kick.

So Virginia Tech's, you know, leading. Five minutes later, Virginia Tech is on the 35 and E.R. Hodgson sets up again to kick, this time a field goal. And rather than, you know, as a snap is made, Hodgson, the kicker, pulls off his brown leather helmet, which is basically the same color as the football.

And he tosses the helmet over the right side of the line so that the, so that the NC State players would think that he was throwing a football. And instead, well, he was throwing a helmet, obviously, but the holder got the ball and he ran around the left side of the NC State line and goes for a 35-yard touchdown. So it's just, you know, this is one of these things where the helmets look enough like a football in terms of just the tanning of the leather that you could throw your helmet and people would think it was a football.

And then in the second half, he sets up again and to place kick another field goal and the ball gets snapped. Instead of going to the, to the holder, the ball gets snapped to the E.R. Hodgson, the kicker. And it's, it's hard to, you know, the, the way they describe it, it's not entirely clear whether, you know, but he handed it off to the quarterback who maybe was positioned out at a wing position.

And it was either like in a draw or a Statue of Liberty sort of play, but the quarterback went for a 75-yard run, you know. So here's poor NC State, you know, they, they thought they were playing a pretty big, pretty good game until they saw ball flying over the, the left side of the defense line, turns out to be a helmet, not a ball. And then they get the old Statue of Liberty play, which was then a new play, pulled on them.

So, you know, two long touchdown runs and unfortunately for them anyways, Virginia Tech won. But so that, that one of the other side lights to this is that these, you know, these trick plays, throwing the helmet around, you know, people continue doing that a bit. And in like the late twenties, there was some guy, I've never figured out who he is, some guy, but he apparently played somewhere in the South.

And he, he would take, he was a running back, he'd take his helmet off and toss it to the ground, you know, sometime close to being tackled, because then some of the defenders would think it was a loose ball, go for the, go for the helmet instead of the, instead of trying to tackle him. And so then that was when they implemented a rule that said every team has to paint their helmets with some kind of striping, you know, cross stripes, or like, you know, kind of like the Michigan Wolverine, you know, type of helmet. You had to have some contrasting colors painted on the top of your helmet.

So it didn't look like a football. So anyways, that's all I know. That's it.

Yeah. That's quite a mouthful there of what you just said. I mean, some great, great stories.

First of all, you almost got to think of back how almost every episode of the A team ended back in the eighties where Hannibal would say, I love it when a plan comes together. It sounds like those, those trickeration plays were to their peak performance there on both of them getting a big touchdown plays, helping them win the game. But the other thing is you almost got to think, you know, it's hard for our modern sensibilities to say, okay, a player's taken off their helmet in the middle of a play.

You know, even in between plays when they're on the field, you know, nowadays they, you know, celebration, they get 15 yard penalties. So obviously that was not the rule back in that era. Well, you didn't even have to have a helmet, you know, at that, at that point.

So, yeah, I mean, you know, people by, well, actually in like oh nine, probably most players didn't wear one. Maybe half did, it probably depended on the team, but you know, certainly in the twenties and thirties, you know, then pretty much everybody was wearing them, but um, like Tommy McDonald, dude, I think he was the last one to play without a helmet. I'm pretty sure that was him.

Maybe, maybe I'm getting him mixed up with some, no, he was the last one to play without a face mask. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

I think you alluded to it a little bit, and I think this is what you were talking about. If you go back, you know, back more towards the turn of the century and where the players, the standard equipment was, they were wearing like the vests, like the leather vests, you know, and you know, then the moleskin pants were that tannish color, like you're talking about in football. So I mean that era, and I think all teams were wearing, I don't think they had different color vests.

It was all the same color that had to be really challenging for a defense to be able to follow the ball and run the ball every play too. Yeah. I mean, so, you know, you basically had to rely on, you know, everybody wore long-sleeve sweaters or jerseys, and then they'd have a stripe, or they'd have socks of the same color.

So that was a primary way to tell. And it's like, you know, eventually college players kind of went to the no hose or no stocking look, you know, they just have the, but like the white sock, right. And, but back then everybody was still wearing shin guards.

And so, you know, the some, you know, early on, they'd wear them over their socks, and then they started wearing them under their socks. But I think the socks probably helped keep them on. And it was just a better look instead of having those shin guards.

But I was coming from the aspect of just trying to follow the ball when you have your midsection and your lower, you know, portions of your body are consumed the same color as the football. And, you know, there's 22 guys on the field like that. It's had to be extremely hard as a defender to follow where that ball is.

Yeah. And, you know, half the time, they were running up the gut. So it's like, you know, how they figured out who had the ball sometimes, you know, who knows.

And they weren't the nice clean fields that we see today either. I'm sure most of them were just mud pits. Yeah.

Especially the end of the season. Yeah. No doubt about it.

Yeah. Well, some interesting stuff and some things that we really have to appreciate that our football forefathers had to go through and experience both in the elements and by rules and some of the craziness of the absence of color in the uniforms and stripes on the ball that we take for granted. Of course, the NFL doesn't have the stripes, but almost every other level has some form of a stripe on there.

Now, I guess that's the other thing I'm sitting here trying to envision when you're putting stripes on balls back in the early twenties. It's not like they had, you know, masking tape and spray paint that they could put it on. So I'm assuming somebody's got to almost like detail this, you know, with a stripe with a brush and very little template.

Somebody with a steady hand and some kind of tape or something. But, you know, I mean, when the manufacturers got involved too, it was like, again, this is another thing I talk about in the book, but it's like, where do you put the stripes? Right. How many stripes? Do you have one stripe? Do you have two stripes? Do you have three stripes? Do they go just one way or do they go the long way? I mean, you know, so that there are these things that we take for granted that, well, of course, the white stripe goes there.

Well, no, that's an arbitrary place. I mean, there's probably reason why they ended up where they ended up, but, you know, I mean, they were just trying stuff, you know? So it's like, Billy, go paint white stripes on the ball. Okay, boss.

And, you know, Billy went and did it. Nobody told him how far it was supposed to be and how wide the stripes had to be or anything like that. Yeah, I think if I had to do it, it would probably look like a melted lightning bolt going around there.

I'm sure it wouldn't be going around. That'd be a tough thing to do on an odd shaped ball like that. I've got some images of the striping on the field as well that sometimes was not quite as straight as one might like.

I've experienced that in modern times when on the grass fields it's kind of hard to do measurements, that's for sure, when you have some of those crazy crooked lines in there. But, yeah, it's probably a better job than I would do, so I can't complain too much. Yeah, so, Tim, just another great way to look back at an aspect of football that it's hard for us to appreciate, but it happened and, you know, some of the things that people had to overcome playing the game that they love, just like we'd love it today, and we'd love just to hear about this history.

But you have some multi-times a week, you have some of these things coming up and writing articles on it, and maybe you could tell the listeners how they can enjoy some of these. Sure, just go to footballarchaeology.com and subscribe. All you have to do is submit an email address, and you'll start getting them every week or every time I post one.

Some of the stuff that I do, I, you know, only paid subscribers, you know, get access to it, but a lot of it is available for free. So, that's the best way. You can also follow me on Twitter, on threads, or on the Substack app.

All right, and keep us posted when that book comes out, so we can get the word out and get that in people's hands and enjoy the history of football and some of the aspects you learned about today, and we're going, I'm sure, in better detail in the book. So, Tim, we'd love to have you again next week, and we thank you for joining us today. Very good.

Thanks, Darin

---

We've all been at live football games, we watch them on TV, and we see how the players know sort of when they have to get into the midst of their huddle and call the signals and break huddle and get up to the line of scrimmage and when that little clock starts ticking for the play clock in golden times and what starts that with a certain signal by the referee the ready for play signal and its history are coming up today with footballarchaeology.com's Timothy Brown and we're up with Tim in just a moment.

Together, we'll have a few laughs, talk a little ball, and explore the evolution of the "ready for play" signal, its origins, and how it's become an integral part of the game.

This post is based on Tim's original article titled:The Meaning Behind the Ready-to-Play Signal and Others

We also have a podcast audio version of the discussion found at:
Unveiling the History of the Ready for Play in American Football with Timothy Brown or you can find it on your favorite podcast provider in the Pigskin Dispatch Podcast for July 23, 2024.

-Transcription of the Ready For Play Signal History with Timothy Brown


Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to Tuesday. It's footballarchaeology.com day, and Timothy Brown is bringing us another exciting aspect of football history.

Tim, welcome back to the Pigpen. Hey, Darin. Thank you.

Looking forward to signaling and talking about the ready-to-play signal. Well, actually, it's pretty cool stuff, I think. Yeah, I'm definitely ready to play to hear this and hit play. Have you tell us all about the history of this signal that I'm very familiar with?

Yeah, well, you know, it's one of those where, you know, I think a lot of us non-officials, you know, we tend to think of the official signals as the ones they give for penalties and then obviously scoring opportunities and things like that. But there are other signals that happen on virtually every play of the game that we just kind of don't even think about that very much. This one happens every scrimmage down, but yeah, every kicking down, too.

Yeah, and so it happens all the time, right? And so I forget how I think, you know, I came across an article on this or but so, you know, this is really about the, you know when you go back to the history of football, you know, it came from rugby. And so, you know, back in the day, it was much more of a continuous action game. You know, the game did not stop.

Well, originally, we didn't have downs in football. So, you know, definitely didn't stop. But even after there were downs, you know, I've done a tidbit or a story, at least on, you know, kind of breaking down the 1903 Yale Princeton game film.

And which is really a fun thing to watch and to read if you're interested in the breakdown of it. But one of the things that's really clear from seeing that film is the pace of play. You know, somebody gets tackled, the center gets over the ball, referee never touches the darn thing, center gets over the ball.

And as soon as the quarterback calls the signals, boom, they run the play. So, they're moving, you know, at much more of a rugby sort of pace. You don't have the stupid officials getting in the middle of everything and mucking things up for the players.

All those, the Zebras. I'm plugging my ears as you're saying. Yes, I know.

That's why I'm saying. The Zebras didn't even have stripes in those days. But it was just a very rapid pace of play.

You know, when they played a 45-minute half, they played 45 minutes. So, and even when the ball went out of bounds, originally, you know, the players were the ones that brought the ball back in, either by tossing it in like a line out, they could toss it back, they could plunk it onto the field, or they could walk it in after declaring how far they were going to walk it in. So, so anyway, it was just a different animal.

But then, then the 20s came about. And in the 20s, you had a couple of things going on, you had the Notre Dame box or Notre Dame shift, and the Minnesota shift was, you know, popular. So, you had a bunch of teams doing all these shifts before they snapped the ball, which slowed down the pace of play a little bit, right? Because they'd get in formation, then they'd jump and, you know, moved right or left, whatever they were doing.

Then, the other thing that happened in the 20s was that we had the beginning of consistent huddling. You know, there'd been a couple of people that huddled before that, but really, you know, Zupke in Illinois, they're the ones who really made huddling happen. And so that was, again, a thing that while they typically got the playoff almost as fast as teams that didn't huddle, it still kind of slowed the game down a little bit.

So, so then one of the tactics that came about was as the, as things weren't quite as fast as they had been in the past, and as much as anything, teams were starting to use different formations instead of just always aligning in the, in the traditional tee, they were starting to use, you know, like a single wing that either was to the left or to the right. So, you know, they were taking time to move into different formations. And so one thing, and then the defense would take a little bit of time to react and align themselves to, to whatever the offense was doing.

So one of the things the offense started doing was running quickie plays, where they'd like to get into a formation, boom, snap it faster than, you know, to kind of catch the defense off guard, which became problematic because then sometimes the defense was in, they were defensive, defenseless players in today's terminology. So it became a safety issue. The other thing that was happening is that they would sometimes like send, you know, once, then a little bit later when substitutions became, you know, started freeing up, you'd see teams sending three guys off the field and putting two guys on.

So they were missing a player. Well, sometimes they'd have that missing player standing right on the sideline, kind of hiding himself. Sometimes, that was called lonesome pole cat or lonesome, lonesome end.

But, that was also different, but nevertheless, the concept was that there'd be a guy over there all by himself, and they'd snap the ball, and he'd head downfield. So they'd toss him the P and, you know, hopefully, you know, catch a long touchdown pass. So all that stuff led in 1951 to a rule that said the referee has to spot the ball on every play.

And because, again, previously, it was much more of the center doing that. So, with the referee spotting the ball on every play he had, they developed what they called the ready-to-play signal to indicate to the players that the ball was ready to be snapped, right? And until he gave that signal, it couldn't be snapped. And so what I didn't realize until I got into, you know, doing this research was what that signal meant, right? Because there are a lot of signals that are just kind of meaningless.

They're just some kind of arm motion, but they don't really relate to the penalty themselves. There are other things, like the holding penalty, right? One arm, you know, yeah, they grab the wrist or just below the wrist. So, okay, that means holding, that makes sense.

And at least the old clipping rule, you know, made sense. There's others like that, you know, block in the back, maybe face mask. Yeah.

And so, but the, so the ready to play signal, that, the signal, which is some of the drawings make it look like he's kind of going with a full arm motion, but I think of them mostly as like kind of pulling straight down. You know, they raise their arm and then pull straight down. Maybe you can tell me what is proper.

It's the first one that you said because they call it a term on the field, which is chopping the ball in for play. So you're, it's almost like you have a little hatchet, and you're, you're making a chopping motion. Right.

But the whistle is really the true signal, the referee blowing that whistle, every play and chopping the ball and saying it's ready for play. And it's, and I know because of recent timing rules in between plays, it used to be when the 25-second clock would start. Now, you know, a lot of levels have changed that.

So you have 40 seconds or something in between when the ball was last dead to get the next snap off, but that's when that would use to start to at the ready for play. So it was an important, important part. And it also starts the clock.

If you had a play where you got a first down, you had an official's timeout. So you stopped the clock in high school to reset the chains, the ready for play would start the clock again in motion. Okay.

Well, so part of what I liked about the story was just that, that, that chopping signal was supposed to be at least some of the period articles said that that was supposed to be akin to, you know, the conductor on a train pulling the chain that blew the steam whistle or, you know, factories used to have whistles that, you know, to mark the end of a shift or, you know, lunchtime, whatever it may be. So it was pulling the chain and, yeah. And then even like, you know, I know when my kids were younger, sometimes they'd make that signal to truck drivers to get them to honk their horns as we're driving by because horns on trucks, you know, especially the horns that they have on the roof, you know, used to pull a chain to make them, you know, I think you're technically right.

If you look at the official signals, like when they have them on cards or in the back of books or anything, it is more like you're saying this, but I don't know. There are very few that do that. And it's probably because we're, you know, we're doing that a hundred times in a game.

Your blood rushes out of your hand. You're just having it down more towards your chest and your waist to chop it. The original images all show up as a full chop, an extended arm chop.

Okay. Almost like the Florida state people, right? That kind of emotion.

So, but I didn't know if that had evolved over time or not, but that was for sure the early signals. Okay. Yeah.

I know that's the way I always did. And that's the way, and I did it by observing my peers when I was, before I was a referee, when I was a line judge and headlinesman, I would watch the referee would do that. So, but they always called it chopping the ball.

And you know, it's okay. Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, but part, again, part of the amusement for me is just, and I kind of ended this particular tidbit by saying, okay, so I went through, I think there's 45 or 47 current NCAA signals for the officials and just kind of saying, okay, well, about half of them seem to have an inherent meaning. They kind of match whatever the signal is, right? Or that whatever the infraction is or whatever they're signaling, whereas others, it's like, you know, putting your arms out, you know, there's like, okay, I don't know what that means, but you know, I mean, it's just like any kind of semaphore flags, you know, you're crossing them or waving them, you know, like the guys on aircraft carriers, you know, it's like, okay, well, whatever it was, as long as it means something to somebody.

There you're right. I mean, in it, when you're learning the signals as an official when you're a referee, I mean, that was, it's, that was like the thing that freaked me out when they said, okay, this is your first game, and you're a referee. That was the thing I panicked.

I know the rules. I know what the signals are, but I'm thinking, God, you have that stage fright, you know, everybody's looking at you to signal. And the ones I had problems with is you have the illegal substitution, and you have the signal.

I would get those two mixed up constantly. And I would have to study almost my first, especially that first season. I'm looking at that card every single game.

And before I got there, I'm like, Oh God, I don't want to get, you know, screw this thing up and have the wrong signal. And the PA announcer announced the opposite thing of what I was calling. So it's interesting.

And I love how, you know, the signals match, you know, like face masks, like you said, or horse collar, which is sort of a newer signal that there's no doubt what, what the guy did when you, when you're signaling that holding, you know, you sit there and you think about it very rarely in football. Have I ever called holding because some, uh, some, an opponent grabbed the other opponent's wrist to do it, but you get to just, it's still made, it makes sense? But it's kind of cool that hockey, lacrosse, and sports like that have adopted football officials' signals for holding, and they use the same signals on some of those things.

That's kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Those baseball guys are there. Yeah. They're kind of weird.

Yeah. That's, that's for sure. But Tim, that is fascinating stuff.

I love when, uh, you know, we get into something that happens every day that people maybe just don't really realize it's happening and you bring out that aspect of football and then you take the history of it and how it evolved. That's just such a cool aspect of what you do. And maybe you could share with folks how they could enjoy some of your other work that you've done on some items like this.

Sure. Uh, just basically go to footballarchaeology.com, um, and just subscribe. It's pretty effortless process and you'll, you'll get an email every time that, that, uh, I post a new, new article and then there's different ways to follow me on social media as well.

And then, you know, I'll also just put in a plug. I've got a, a new book coming out called a history of the football that basically just goes back to literally the middle ages and kind of traces how the football has changed shape, size, color, stripes, weight, inflation levels, just kind of all kinds of little dorky little things about the football. But some of them, you know, there's, I think, you know, came across some, found some pretty interesting stuff, interesting stories about how things changed and how, you know, in some cases, some personalities and individuals like George Hallis, you know, had an influence on the ball that we know and love today.

No, right. Sounds like some great stuff. And, uh, we'd love to hear more about it and love to talk to you about some more football history next Tuesday.

Very good. Look forward to it.

---

Sometimes our fondest memories of playing football are some of the memories that we had on the sidelines with the guys. Others might be on the sidelines with some of the pieces of equipment that we use every day that we probably don't think much about.

This conversation is based on Tim's original Tidbit titled: Football And Paper Cups.

On the go? Also check out our Podcast version

Well, that's one of those stories we have today from football history. Timothy Brown joins us to tell us about another piece of football's antiquity. He's coming up in just a moment.

-Transcription of our Chat with Tim Brown

Hello, my football friends.

This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal for positive football history. And welcome to another exciting Tuesday as we have Timothy P. Brown of footballarchaeology.com joining us to talk about another aspect of some antiquity of football. Tim, welcome back to the Pigpen.

Hey, Darin. Good to see you and hear your wonderful voice once again. Yeah, I thought about for this segment, taking a string and some Dixie cups and using that to communicate for it.

But I thought maybe that the listeners wouldn't get the, you know, the audio or the video. So yeah, well, and some of them probably aren't old enough to remember using Dixie cups and a piece of string to communicate over distances. That's true.

I can still remember tin cans too. So but yes, that's a side of place. But that was a poor segue into our topic for this segment.

Tim wrote an article back in May titled football and paper cups and, you know, just a little side track of sidebar football, a little sideline information here and always a great piece of football history. So we're excited to hear this. Yeah, so this one, you know, I mean it, I, I'm old enough to remember the days of water discipline.

And while I don't know that it was really severe in my day, you know, you just didn't have total access to water like is the assumption today that there's, whenever anybody wants water, they get it. But for a long time, you know, for a century plus, in football and really just in any kind of sport in the military, water discipline was a big deal. And, you know, there was this attempt to, you know, I think they, at one level, they thought that, you know, drinking water was a sign of weakness.

And also maybe they thought was a bit unhealthy to do it in the middle of exercise, drinking cold water, especially. And, you know, even, you know, if you watch a band of brothers, you know, there's a scene where the captain what's his nuts, you know, has them pour out their canteens and obviously, you know, somebody had broken water discipline, you know, so it was, it was all over. It was, you know, kind of all throughout sports and any, anywhere, any situation where physical fitness was a big issue.

And so, it was terribly misinformed and made worse by the uniforms and equipment of the time. So, you know, at the time, players wore these heavy, especially early on, heavy moleskin or canvas pants. They wore wool jerseys and later cotton jerseys, but all of them, you know, like cotton absorbs like, and moleskin and canvas are cotton products.

They absorb like 23 times their weight in water. So, you know, your pants could get really heavy just from sweat. And then when you, you know, I mean, the reason we have wicking fabrics is because it draws the sweat away from your body and allows your body to sweat.

You know, if it's all in the, in the uniform, you don't sweat properly. And so, you don't cool down properly. So anyways, you know, these guys were in these, you know, heavy leather helmets that didn't, you know, release heat very well either.

And they were often told, don't take your helmets off on the field. All those things contributed to people being, you know, just really suffering from heat trauma. So that really changed.

I mean, I attribute, you know, the biggest change to the University of Florida's Gatorade studies and the studies that developed the Gatorade product in the mid-sixties. And once, once it was shown, or at least once people believed that players who drank Gatorade performed better, especially late in games, then it was like, Hey, okay, tell me no more. You know, I'm, I want my players drinking Gatorade, you know? And, you know, cause it happened that the first year that Florida used Gatorade, they had like four come from behind victories during the season.

So everybody was like, Oh, Gatorade. So, and that really just, I mean, almost overnight things changed in that regard. So people gave access to water.

And so anyways, that's all kind of background to the fact that, you know, around the time that I wrote this article, I came across an image that was, it was a Penn State trainer, guy named, I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly, Jack Holmy. And he had developed this metal tray that sat on top of the water bucket that you normally, you know, back then everybody took water buckets out onto the field of the ladle. And then, you know, the guys drink from that water bucket, you know, they use the ladle to drink from the water bucket.

Well, oftentimes it would have like a bloody sponge. If they wiped off somebody's face, the sponge went right back in there. So, you know, it was not, it wasn't the days of like blood on the uniform that we have now.

That really hits our modern sensibilities through COVID and everything, you know, where we're washing our hands 90 times a day. Yeah. So, he developed this tray that sat atop the water bucket and that tray then had a bunch of little metal cups.

So, you could scoop water into the metal cup and then each player could drink, you know, individually. So, I thought, okay, well, that's kind of a cool invention, but why didn't he just use paper cups? Which, you know, when you ask a question like that, then you have to say, well, when did they first develop paper cups? And so, you know, that led me down into that rabbit hole. And so, it turns out that the paper cup really was, you know, developed by an attorney who lived in Boston, early part of the 20th century, a guy named Lawrence Llewellyn.

And so, he develops paper cups in 1907. And, you know, they were marketing them having, you know, some success. But in 1916, they changed the company name to Dixie Cups, which, you know, pretty much everybody knows of now.

And one of the other big things that they developed was, you know, I think everybody's had those little ice cream. In the summer, you get ice cream with, you know, paper cup and a lid and a wooden spoon. Wooden pallets, a spoon, I say.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like a paddle. Yeah. So, his company developed that product as well.

And the funny thing is that, you know, the paper cup didn't seem to really resonate with the football crowd. But, you know, this lawyer is from Boston and, you know, across the Charles River is Harvard. And Percy Houghton, who was the coach at Harvard at the time, he had paper cups, you know, full of water delivered, you know, taken out onto the field for the players.

So, you know, Houghton was a brilliant guy in at least that way, besides his coaching acumen and, you know, winning multiple national titles. So, then, you know, the paper cup kind of becomes, it's just this thing that doesn't really quite fit. You know, I mean, it's making some progress, but it starts becoming popular in the Coca-Cola.

You went to the, down to the drugstore and went to the fountain and they made a Coca-Cola for you. And if you wanted to leave, you couldn't take the glass cup. So, they charge you a penny to put it in a paper cup to walk out of there.

So, I mean, he just, as a kid, I remember all these Coca-Cola paper cups and, you know, I'm sure they're still around somewhere. But so, you know, paper cups were coming on. And so, but it's still like, I mean, I've looked at, you know, lots and lots of pictures of multi-football and I just don't see paper cups on the field.

So, it's like, okay, what was holding him back? And then, and why even in 46, when this article came out, was he still doing this metal thing? Well, I think the best explanation for that is World War II. There were paper shortages, you know, and one of the last things you were going to do is use paper cups on a football field. So, they kept using the water bucket and ladle.

And then, so pretty much, you know, shortly after the war, then as paper became more available, then paper cups on the sideline became more popular and the same tray or concept of the tray could be used for paper cups. Though, you know, who knows? You know, who knows if, you know, I'm sure there were people using ladles for quite a while afterwards. But again, it's just one of those, this is just one of those goofy little stories of, you know, football using a technology that was available and had been available for 50 years before football, you know, adopted it.

You know, so it's just one of those kind of slow things that somebody finally realizes, you know, if we give them, you know, if we give them the water in paper cups, it's it's more hygienic, it's, you know, whatever. Yeah, you know, so anyway, it's just a goofy little story, but, you know, I had fun kind of researching it and then writing it. No, you had some great things, great story.

A couple of thoughts come to my mind. First of all, you're telling the story of, you know, the attorney and the paper cup and then renaming the company Dixie. It almost reminded me of like watching a history channel, Modern Marvels.

Somebody comes up with an idea and then, well, now it's Federal Express or whatever they're talking about. That was pretty cool. The other thing, you know, when you're talking about Gatorade and coming out in the 60s, do you, I know I've either read about it or heard about it where teams used to drink pickle juice to get the electrolytes.

Did you ever hear stories of that? You know, I don't remember that, you know, specifically, but, you know, I mean, even like when I was in high school and early college, I think, you know, we were still taking salt tablets, which is not a good idea, but, you know, we did it because that's what we were told to do. Right. So, I mean, that was the way and I don't really know what was all in those salt tablets, but, you know, they always had bottles of them sitting around.

And so, you know, and I mean, you know, Gatorade replenishes some of the same things that are in salt tablets, but does so in different dosages. And there's lots of other, you know, I mean, one of the things that when the scientists said, you know, there are medical college people in Florida who were doing the research to develop Gatorade. And a lot of what, you know, what they were doing initially was they were trying to find ways to figure out what was in the sweat.

You know, so they collect sweat off of football players. They'd wring out their clothing and, you know, just to figure out, well, what is it that needs to be replenished? Right. And so, you know, they dig it around with it to figure out what was in there, but also what was palatable.

You know, somebody be willing to drink. How'd you like to be the lab assistant on that? You know, Hey, I take that sweaty shirt and wring it out and tell me what's in it. Well, I think there's some other assignments that are worse than that.

The other comment that came out now, I, it seems like it's a more recent, like last 20 years, but the, the paper cups are like sort of cone shape. Like you used to get snow cones in. I don't remember seeing those when I was a kid, you know, but was that the shape that the cups were when they first came out the paper cups or do you know what shape they were? Yeah.

I don't know. I was just assuming that they had a flat bottom, but yeah, it could be cylinder or the conical. The conical ones are just, they're kind of brilliant because they're so utilitarian and probably much easier to manufacture and probably use less paper and, you know, the whole process, but it's so simple.

It's, I don't know, just, I don't know what you think about it. Cause I had to use a bunch of those. I was on a cruise recently and that's what they had for us when we came to shore.

So it's those paper cups. Well, very cool story, Tim, you know, that's a, you know, a great piece of football history that you don't hear anywhere else. So you don't, you know, most of us don't think about that stuff, but these guys had to drink water and it was a brilliant idea with the paper cups, a brilliant idea with the gentleman from Penn state with the metal attachment to the bucket.

So you don't have the bloody towels going in there in your drinking water, but you have a lot of different little unique stories and aspects of football that you research and you do a great job on. And how can people enjoy some of those on a more regular basis? Yeah. So, I mean, the easiest thing is just to go to footballarchaeology.com, subscribe, and you'll get an email every time I release an article, you'll get an email into your inbox.

You can also follow me on Twitter because I post each one of those as well. And then threads, or, you know, you just go out to the, you can follow me on the Substack platform as well, but, or just go out to the site whenever it suits your fancy and use the search function and try to find articles that you're, where you've got some curiosity. Well, we certainly enjoy it and we enjoy having you here on Tuesday and we thank you again for joining us.

Love to have you again next week to talk about another piece of football's antiquity and love to hear some more. I will do my best to be here. All right.

Thanks. Have a good one.

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Today, we're taking you on a journey back in time to the hallowed ground of American football. Imagine a field where the echoes of legendary plays still linger in the air, where the grass has witnessed the birth of gridiron strategies, and where the very soul of the game seems to permeate the soil.

Wesleyan's Andrus Field is the oldest football field in America. Join us as Tim Brown of FootballArchaeology.com visits to delve into the venue's rich history, uncovering the stories of the players, coaches, and fans who have left their mark on this legendary patch of turf. From its humble beginnings to its place in football folklore, we'll explore Andrus Field's captivating legacy.

If you love the football talk on the history and evolution, then you check out the original article Tim wrote America's Oldest Football Field.

We also have a podcast of the episode found at: Where is America's Oldest Football Field.

-Transcription of American Oldest Football Field with Tim Brown

Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes at PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to another Tuesday, FootballArcheology.com day, where we get to visit with Timothy P. Brown and learn another great antiquity of football. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, thanks, Darin. Look forward to chatting about old times and old fields. Old times and old fields, a great way to take us into a story that you wrote not too long ago, earlier this year, titled America's oldest football field in one of your tidbits on FootballArcheology.com. What do you have to say about the story? Well, I guess if there's listeners out there who had not read the tidbit, if you were to guess which football field has been in use as a football field for the longest, I would guess maybe one in a thousand would guess the correct answer.

Probably a lot more could guess the right region of the country. It was an eastern team, which would make sense, but probably not too many would guess the school. So the school is Wesleyan, and they play now.

It's a big deal academically, a big deal conference of a bunch of small schools on the East Coast, New England schools, and but they play D3 football and or D3, you know, all their sports. But there was a time, there was a day when Wesleyan and some of their counterparts would, you know, match up and with the biggest teams playing at the time. So, you know, here and there we'll talk about the Intercollegiate Football Association, which was founded in 1876, you know, at that time it was, you know, Penn, Harvard, and Princeton, and Yale attended but didn't join.

And then within a year or two, Wesleyan joined. So Wesleyan was part of that early mix of teams that was in the IFA. And I don't think they ever really competed very well.

You know, they lost consistently to those teams. But then, you know, and they would play like, they played Dartmouth all the time and other schools like Williams and, you know, similar schools to them. But the point really is that in the 1880s and into the 1890s, they were playing with the best teams in the country.

And so, like a lot of places early on, they just, they played where, like in the best open field they could find. And they happen to have one on campus. And apparently it had some ruts.

And, you know, I mean, they, the fields back then just weren't like they are today. They weren't these manicured lawns. But they use the same field for baseball.

You know, I've seen images of them setting up, like temporary, you know, we think of tennis courts as these permanent, you know, these permanent things back then or now. But back then you set up a tennis court wherever there was an open piece of flat land, you know, where there was grass. And so, you know, I've seen pictures of tennis courts set up on this field.

I think I've seen some images from our friends north of the border where they would flood some of their fields and have hockey rinks on the football field in the wintertime. Yeah. I mean, we had one at the park one street up from us, you know, growing up.

I'm not that far north. I'm just, I was pretty far north. Yeah, it's pretty far north where you are.

So, but then in, so they would play games on this field. And then in 1897, one of their alums, the guy from the class of 1862, so he graduates in the middle of the civil war, he donated money to fix up this field and kind of build a stadium, you know, make a stadium out of it. And so, you know, that field opened in 1897.

And Wesleyan has been playing football on that field ever since. Right now, it's gone through different, you know, variations of, you know, stands and scoreboards and whatnot. But, you know, fundamentally, it's the same location that they've played their games at.

Just, you know, another couple of things that kind of interesting that came up in the research, some of which I already knew, but just reminded. So one was that in the late 1880s, in 1888 and 1889, Wesleyan had a faculty member who was on the athletic committee. And he had been the manager of the Princeton football team in his undergrad days.

So he helped coach the Wesleyan team in those years. And that guy's name was Woodrow Wilson, who would later become the President of Princeton, and then the President of the United States. So they were, if you played, you know, if you played for Wesleyan back then, you could later claim that you played football for the President of the United States, which pretty cool.

Yeah, definitely. And then the other thing was just in, and this was actually the 1887 yearbook. It's just kind of a cute thing I find.

They described the positions and the positions pretty much match up the way that we would describe offensive positions now that though they had two halfbacks and a fullback. But the guys between the ends and the guards, they called the left and right tackler, not tackle. So, and, you know, but the funny, the cool thing is that, you know, that's in print, but that's how the tackle position got its name because it was on defense teams used to run the ball at the tackles, you know, just running off tackler right at the tackle.

And so these guys made a lot of tackles. So they were the left and right tackler. So it was just neat to see that in print as the original form of the term.

Yeah. Yeah. That is pretty cool.

Very interesting, especially at the oldest continuous football field. I got a question maybe you can answer. Now, you know, we know it was a grass field back then.

A lot of these stadiums have turned, gone from natural turf to artificial turf. And so is this field still a grass stadium? I don't know. The image or the tidbit has an image of the stadium, you know, a recent year image of the stadium.

So it would show whether it's natural turf or grass, but I don't know offhand. Yeah, it looks pretty green. That's what posed the question to me.

If they had it that green, maybe either they got some great photographers or some nice filters or really good grounds crew. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I would guess it's probably artificial turf. I mean, it's probably like any other field that's used nowadays where they've got, you know, they're playing lacrosse or playing field hockey on that thing. They're playing soccer.

So I would guess it's probably, you know, artificial, but there's still some really nice football fields out there that are natural turf and they do a nice job of manicuring them and make them look pretty on TV anyway. Well, like in the big tenants, mostly the schools that have like big, um, it's not really agriculture, but like grass science kinds of programs, you know, like the horticulture. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, like Michigan state has, and I believe Purdue might, I'm not, I'm not sure, but Michigan state's got a big program in that stuff. And so, you know, they, they're not, they're not getting rid of there.

Right. And then, you know, I think generally in the South, there's more grass than there is up North. Um, but, you know, nowadays, I mean, even the grass fields are beautifully drained and, you know, the drainage was just coming into play on athletic fields, you know, turn of the century or, you know, that kind of timeframe.

So, and those were only in like the best spots. Yeah. I can tell you for one that spent a lot of time, uh, standing and running on a football field.

I much rather be on, on grass, even on the sloppy days, because it's something about turf fields. And I went from, you know, the astroturf carpets to the field turfs of today. And there's something about it.

You just, your shins and your knees and your ankles just don't, they feel really achy by the time you're, you're done with the game on there compared to a nice giving, you know, earthen fields. Well, and they, uh, especially the old, the original old astroturf, um, those things were hotter than blazes. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, your feet just burned. Yeah.

And it's just, you felt the cement underneath you on those. So yeah, definitely. Well, a great story and a great, uh, a monument to the game of football, you know, having this field that's been, you know, what, 150 years or I'm sorry, you started the 1890s.

I started on that field, 1897. So 130 years, give or take a few years. So just amazing that, uh, doing that on the same place and playing the same game.

Yeah. You know, it's, it's an interesting thing that, you know, I mean, I've talked about this elsewhere, but like for the most part, if the, with the pro teams, if they're getting rid of one stadium, they build a new one in a different location. Colleges, you know, some of that goes on, but the vast majority of it, it's, they redo the existing stadium or they'll tear it even like Northwestern, they're tearing the whole thing down and then they're rebuilding on the same site.

Right. I mean, campuses for the most part is space constrained and that, you know, they want to stay on campus, whatever, but like, you know, even places like, you know, Georgia Tech has a really old stadium. Wisconsin's got a really old stadium, you know, there's others that are, and then, you know, a whole slew of them built in the twenties, pretty much everybody's still playing in those, in those stadiums.

So it's, I don't know, you know, so these guys are maybe they're the ones that establish that template. Yeah. Maybe the, aren't those architecturally appeasing and don't have the technology that some of these brand new stadiums offer, but there's some nostalgia, almost like going to the old baseball stadium, you know, going to Fenway and watching a game compared to, you know, going to some of the newer stadiums.

There's just something about it, the architecture and the feel of the game. And the neighborhood. I mean, even like, you know, all those old places are really cool.

Now. Yeah. I think some of the new places are really cool too, but for different reasons.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. Two different pieces of enthusiasm that come out from the fans from those.

So the nostalgic feel always wins in my heart. Yeah. But your, your butt might be a little bit sore, but you're cricking your neck a little bit and look around poles and things like we talked about in the past, but you definitely get to feel the history in some of those stadiums is kind of cool.

And so, you know, speaking of feeling the history, you, you talk about the history of the game quite often going into some of these nooks and crannies that you know, not a lot of people get an advantage point of, of seeing, but you, you have these a few times a week coming out and maybe you could share with the listeners how they can partake in some of your writings on these. Yeah. Well, so obviously they can subscribe to this podcast and listen here, but you know, if you want to read the tidbits, you know, I release them every couple, every couple of days, more or less.

And so you just go to my I've got a sub stack called football archaeology.com. You just type that in and subscribe and you'll get, you know, get an email every time that I send out a new, a new story. You can also follow me on Twitter on threads or on the sub stack app or obviously just go out there and, you know, bookmark it and go whenever you want. But if you want to make sure you get every story, whether you read it or not, at least you'll know that it came across then subscribing is really the only way to do that.

All right. Well, Tim, we definitely appreciate you joining us here on this Tuesday and every Tuesday as we get to talk to you. We're honored by that and we would love to talk to you again next Tuesday.

Very good. Look forward to it and we'll find something to talk about.

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Discover how the grand opening of Harvard Stadium revolutionized the game of football. This video explores the stadium's groundbreaking design, its impact on player safety, and how it set the stage for modern football stadiums. From its early days as a pioneering venue to its enduring legacy, we delve into the story of how Harvard Stadium shaped the future of the sport. Featuring historical footage, expert analysis, and interviews, this video is a must-watch for football fans and history enthusiasts alike.

Do you love the football talk on history and evolution? Then wait till you check out the original article Tim wrote Building and Opening Harvard Stadium.

Also check out the podcast version of our chat at Harvard Stadium Pigskin Dispatch Podcast.

-Transcription of When Harvard Stadium Opened with Tim Brown

Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes at PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And it is Tuesday.

As we have traditionally done over the last couple of years, we have visited with Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com, talking about another aspect of great football history that maybe isn't mainstream and we don't know much about. Tim has done some digging and studying on it, and he's got a great one for us tonight. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Thanks, Darren. Yeah, looking forward to talking about cementing our relationship. If I can really pull in a really bad bet.

Yeah, I think that might earn some cement shoes there on that one. That's... I don't prepare these. He's just, you know, they just come right out, you know, and sometimes it doesn't come off right.

Tim is segwaying into a tidbit that he wrote a little about a year ago, a little over a year ago, or maybe it was this year, June 26. Building and opening Harvard Stadium, which is, you know, a great iconic stadium of college football that, you know, the cathedral, I guess, of football. So maybe, Tim, we'd love to hear about the history of what you have on this one.

Yeah, so Harvard Stadium, you know, I'm happy to report that I did see one game there. I went and saw Harvard Yale there 20 years ago or so. And it was; I've only had obstructed viewing seats on two or three occasions, and that was one of them.

There's, atop the stadium, there's these big cement pillars. And my seat was directly behind one of those. So I paid the full ticket price.

But anyways. Yeah, so it gives me visions of the old Cleveland Municipal Stadium where the Browns used to play, the old Browns. And the same way you get up on those upper levels, you have these giant pillars in the way, just half the field.

Well, yeah, that's I mean, I've done the I-beam thing at the Old County Stadium and Tiger Stadium, but. This was a much, this was much bigger than an I-beam. So anyways, but, you know, that Harvard Stadium was built in 1903.

Prior to that, they played basically right next door to where they built Harvard Stadium. It's, you know, it was an open area across the Charles River from from the rest of campus. That's over near where the Harvard Business School is.

But the. So. You know, the money, you know, they had all this money to build this new stadium, and they decided to build it out of reinforced concrete, which at the time was just this.

You know, exciting new way to build, you know, major structures. But this was the first, you know, sizable structure in the world to be built of reinforced concrete. So, the Romans had figured out how to do concrete.

And then we'd forgotten the magical, you know, of that for, you know, almost whatever, eighteen, nineteen hundred years. So, but, you know, they kind of got that going again. And so.

They had the money and they basically said, OK, we're going to build the start building this thing. After the baseball season is over, because they were building it atop the old baseball field. So they couldn't couldn't start building until like.

I was like, you know, half midway through June or something like that. And then it was just like Katie barred the door. You know, I mean, they literally had 800 workmen there every day trying to build this thing.

And they didn't have to dig it out or anything. They didn't. You know, it was basically just that they poured these big concrete slabs.

You know, just it's kind of like an assembly line production built one slab after another. And it was all with, you know, they it was all built with like sack creep. So, you know, they figured they had like 90,000 bags of cement.

Wow. These people poured. And so, you know, but, you know, the stadiums didn't have all the amenities that they have now.

So there were no bathrooms. There were no there were no concessions. That there were no lights.

You know, there's no maybe they had telephones in there. But I mean, literally, I mean, it was about as fair as you could have it by today's standards. You know, at the time, it's just this incredible structure.

So, I mean, they ended up it literally was being the progress of building the stadium was reported around the world, you know, among construction aficionados. Right. But so they, you know.

As we talked last week, you know, Yale would play almost all their games at home. Harvard was in the same situation. Everybody would come to Harvard because, you know, even before they built Harvard Stadium, they had a fairly sizable stadium.

They could make more money by playing there than playing at home. So so they played eight home games in the old stadium and in the tid, you know, in the tidbit itself. I've got a cool image from the newspaper showing them playing a game.

I think it's a game that they played against Carlisle. And then in the background, you can see, you know, the stadium is rising, you know, in the background. One other just quick little side note is that, and this is in the tidbit, too, there was in it when I found this article or one of the articles adjoining that article was a newspaper article about this guy in Britain named C.S. Rolls, and he had set a new world record by driving eighty-four miles an hour over the course of a kilometer.

So eighty four miles an hour was the fast, basically the fast anybody had ever driven a car. So I just thought it was interesting that that was next, you know, next door or next to this article. Then, this guy named Rolls joined up with Royce the next year.

They started a car company that most of us are familiar with and fits well with the Harvard thing, right? So anyway, they're building this thing, but they just couldn't get it completed. It is time for the last two games of the season. They wanted it to be ready for the Yale game, which was being played at Harvard that year.

So they stopped construction and then focused for about a week or two just on like cleaning the place up. They built temporary stands. They built like areas to block off the things that were still under construction.

And they had like 90,000 concrete paper bags laying around. They had to clean up. Well, it created a hell of a bonfire.

That's right. And so they did all that stuff, you know, they get it all set up. So then they play.

They wanted to I think they wanted to give it a, you know, a test run playing Dartmouth before, you know, Yale the following week. So Dartmouth comes into play and typically Harvard beat him every year. But that year, Dartmouth had a pretty good team and they end up winning 15 to nothing.

So, you know, the Harvard people are kind of peeled. Thankfully, Yale lost the same week. And so both teams were coming into the game, you know, with their most recent game being a loss.

And but everybody's excited. You know, there's you know, this is going to be the largest crowd to ever see a game at an on-campus stadium. You know, I mean, there were bigger games played at the polo or bigger crowds and polo grounds and, you know, a couple of places here and there.

But on campus, this is like they were going to have about 23 or 25,000 because the stadium wasn't complete. But sure enough, Yale comes in and beats Harvard 16 to nothing. So, you know, so they didn't score in their last in their first two games in Harvard Stadium.

They didn't even score. And they had to wait till the start of the 1904 season before they could win a game in their brand new, massive, reinforced concrete stadium. So anyway, that's kind of just the story.

But it's still, you know, kind of a cute, cute deal. And, you know, it's just. You just realize the things that we just take for granted in terms of the quality of stadiums and the the size of stadium, you know, 33,000 was what they designed this for.

And, you know, at that time, it was a U-shaped stadium. It is now again. But, you know, it was like it was considered just a palace compared to most places.

Right. Yeah. It's not a big fire hazard.

Some of the other ones were worried about collapsing as much as some of the things that were happening at that time at many games around the world. Yeah. So I mean, just the irony that they, you know, they have all this momentum and all this hype of this new stadium and then going, oh, and two and can't even score a point in their games against two rivals.

That's kind of ironic. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you know, there's other stuff, too, that I think I'm not 100 percent sure about, but I believe that when they built that stadium, they did not plan for it. They didn't plan for like wooden benches. It was just that everybody was going to sit on concrete.

Eventually, they put concrete or wood boards there. But I'm pretty sure the original intention was to sit on concrete, which is fine in September and maybe October or November. Not so much.

Yeah. Now, when did the Yale Bowl that came a few years after the Harvard Stadium? Yeah, that opened in 14. OK.

It's almost 11 years. I mean, Yale, Yale had a, you know, Yale Field, which preceded Yale, the Yale Bowl was a pretty good sized stadium. I mean, I don't know exactly, but I'm guessing it was like 20.

Twenty thousand or something like that, and it increased in size over the years. But, you know, they build those stadiums and all of these, and it would go on; it went on for another 20 years. A lot of times, they'd have like if they were playing like Wesleyan or Bowdoin or something like that.

They'd get 6000 people. But so they really built the stadiums. To handle the Harvard and Yale games and to a lesser extent, Princeton, once every 24 months in the Harvard Yale game.

Well, but, you know, there were everybody. Wanted tickets, and like when they opened it in 03, because of the reduced capacity, they couldn't handle all, you know, all the some people got rejected. Right.

And so, you know, if you're a Harvard guy and you want tickets to the game and you get rejected, that's not a good thing. Yeah, probably not. Your social circles.

You have to get your Rolls-Royce and head back to Boston. Tim, that is an incredible story in so many facets. I'm still trying to absorb all this, so, you know, the whole thing with the Harvard team, the stadium, the Rolls-Royce.

You know, that's just tremendous stuff. You know, you have a lot of things going on there, and it is very historic. And you have a lot of different items like this.

So you come up in your tidbits that you're doing multiple times every week. And maybe you could share with the listeners how they, too, can partake in some of what you're writing is. Yeah, excuse me.

Yeah, just easiest thing is just go to footballarchaeology.com and subscribe. And, you know, you'll get an email every time that I send out a new a new post, which, you know, like you said, a couple of times a week. Other than that, you can follow me on on the Substack app.

That's probably the next best thing. But, you know, if you want to if you want to make sure you get it, you know, subscribe, get the email. And even if you don't read it, you can just delete it.

But it's up to you. Consume as you must. Well, we always enjoy reading from the hardworking historian of the gridiron up there, footballarchaeology.com. We always enjoy that and enjoy the stories.

And we love having you on here each and every Tuesday. And we'd like to talk to you again next Tuesday. Very good.

Again, look forward to chatting next week.

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Step back to the roaring twenties, a golden age of college football. Imagine two titans of the gridiron, the Yale Bulldogs and the Georgia Bulldogs, locked in a legendary rivalry that captivated the nation. In this podcast, we delve into the untold stories of this epic clash, exploring the athletes, the games, and the cultural impact of this historic matchup. From the smoky stadiums to the passionate fanbases, we'll uncover the drama, triumphs, and heartbreaks that define this unforgettable era of college football.

Are you ready to relive the glory days? Timothy Brown of Football Archaeology takes us back a century when these two programs were on par on the gridiron, and it was a Bulldog v. Bulldog matchup. This information comes from his original post titled:

Battle of the Bulldogs: Yale vs. Georgia

-Transcription of When Georgia played Yale with Timothy Brown


Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history.

And welcome to another Tuesday. It's footballarchaeology.com day. Timothy P. Brown of that great website joins us each Tuesday to talk about another antiquity of football.

And we really have a great episode for you today because we're going to go back in time and talk about some of the structures of football. And Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, thanks, Darin.

Yeah, looking forward to this one. This should be a pretty fun one to talk about. Yeah, I think it should be.

This is really interesting, because it's got multifaceted, you got some, some mascots in there, you've got some, some, you know, good old programs that were, you know, at some of them at their height back in the day, and some of them we look at today, they're the top of the game. So really old meets new, and a lot of stuff in between. So we're interested in hearing about the history.

Yeah. Yeah. So this, this comes from a tidbit that I did back in May, May of the year ago.

And it was called the Battle of the Bulldogs. And, you know, so it basically is concerning, you know, two teams that had the Bulldog nickname. And, but back in, you know, back in, say, the teens and the 20s, there were very, there were really pretty few intersectional games, you know, transportation was just more difficult than, you know, it took longer to get, you know, by train from one section of the country to the, to the other.

And so teams just didn't, you know, I mean, they definitely didn't go out to the Pacific coast very much. But even like the North-South games and Midwest to East games were just few and far between. And so, interestingly, you know, we tend to think of the Notre Dame USC series as like this ancient, you know, ongoing annual game.

And it started in 1926. And, you know, they've played, you know, nearly every year since then, and maybe even every year, I don't know, but, you know, they've played a lot, right. And, or, you know, it's an intersectional, they're not the same conference, though, you know, nowadays, you can be intersectional and be in the same conference, but they aren't.

But so that started in 26. And so the interesting thing is that there was a series that we now would think of as kind of strange bedfellows. But a series, an intersectional series started three years earlier.

And it was the Battle of the Bulldogs. And it was between Georgia, who we all, you know, that's the team that's pretty good these days. And the other was Yale, the team that was pretty good back in those days.

And so they seem like kind of a strange combination of play one another. Um, but my understanding is there, there was a connection, I think there were some Yale graduates who helped either found Georgia or helped design the campus, you know, there were, there were just Yale folks who were involved in UGA early on. So turns out the two teams scheduled a little series and starting 1923.

So not too long after, you know, World War One ended. And they played every year until 1934. Other than 1932, they didn't play that year.

But, you know, it may have been really the first kind of long standing intersectional series. You know, I know that Pitt and Georgia Tech played, you know, a handful of games in the 1910s. And they were both like, nationally prominent teams, Heisman at Georgia Tech and Warner at Pitt.

So I mean, they had some really good teams back then. And, you know, I know Pitt won a couple of national championships in that in that era. But then they, you know, then that kind of ended.

So this one was really something else, you know, so you got this classic Eastern school that is, you know, now we look back and we know that they were kind of on the downswing of their power, you know, but they had dominated early football, them and Princeton really. So anyways, they set up a, you know, set up game and or a series and, as was normally the case, Georgia went to Yale each year. You know, back then Yale had the biggest stadium in the country.

You know, they could draw a big crowd. And so if you were looking to make some money by playing a game, you're, you know, like most teams, you're going to be better off going to Yale and playing there. Plus, Yale and Harvard both had some like faculty policies, you can only leave campus once a year.

So you'd either, those two would either play at Princeton or at Harvard, you know, and then switch it, you know, switch it, you know, each year. But anyways, so the first four games, they play in at Yale and Yale wins, you know, they were the better team back then. And, but then in 1927, Georgia upsets Yale, you know, at Yale.

And, you know, so, you know, that was kind of a big deal. And in 28, Yale, you know, ends up winning again at home. So they're, you know, they're standing like five and one in Yale's favor.

And then in 1929, Georgia was opening up Sanford Stadium. Until then they had played at Sanford Field, which was like a dual, you know, one of those old wooden dual purpose, baseball and football fields. So Sanford, which is where they still play now, but it's been remodeled, you know, 57 times.

You know, that, you know, 29 was the first game there. And, you know, Yale goes down there and wearing their heavy wool jerseys on a hot day in Georgia, and they lost 15 to nothing. So, you know, it's just, that's just kind of a funny little sidelight.

I wouldn't want to be the equipment manager carrying the laundry that day. No. And you would think that they would have thought ahead, but, you know, maybe they just figured out we're going to beat them anyways, you know.

But so then, then they played four more times, you know, they played in 30, 31, 33, and 34, all again, back at Yale and Georgia won all four of them. So, you know, it's just one of those games or a series where you just, you look at that and the sequence of losses, and then Georgia, you know, sneaks in there and wins one. And then, you know, then they end up winning, you know, five in a row in terms of games played.

That was also the first time anybody had beaten Yale five games in a row. So, you know, it's just, it kind of, it's kind of emblematic of turning the tide, you know, it's the shift of power from. I don't think you're allowed to use the word tide in Georgia in the same sentence.

I think that's a football law. I think they're against that. Well, you know, I wasn't aware of that law, but I will write that one down right here.

I think they probably find a fence to that somehow. But yeah, I mean, so it's just, it's just one of those great examples of the times they are a changing and, you know, Columbia went to the Rose Bowl in 34. That was a little bit of a fluke, but, you know, and Harvard had been in the Rose Bowl in 20, but, you know, it was pretty much, you know, that those classic Eastern teams were starting to fall on hard times and, you know, de-emphasizing and all that kind of stuff.

And, you know, now, you know, they play as the Ivy League today, but so clearly gone in a different direction than Georgia, but still, you know, cool, cool series, intersectional series, one of the first, and, you know, the relative strengths of the program switched during the course of the series. So, yeah. Sort of right at that tipping point where Yale is sort of starting to decline and Georgia's starting to incline.

So it's kind of interesting. It was a pretty balanced games. It sounds like a series.

Actually, even, you know, when Georgia won, I think one of the years they won by 14, but otherwise it was like, you know, they won by six or three years, you know, they were close games, but they just, they still won, you know. Right. Playing at Yale.

I wonder, I mean, there's probably no way to know, but, you know, it would be kind of a cool thing. You have Handsome Dan is the, traditionally the mascot name of Yale's Bulldog, and Ugga is the traditionally the name of the Georgia's Bulldog, you know, live animals, Bulldogs. And I wonder if they were ever at the same game during those years.

I wonder if they traveled. That'd be kind of cool, but an iconic picture if there would have been one. Yeah, I will.

I'll look into that, the Ugga and Handsome Dan. Yeah, that'd be, that'd be kind of interesting. That'd really bring the Bulldog versus Bulldog.

Yeah. I mean, you know, there's old pictures of, you know, the army mule and the Navy goat, you know, back in that time period, whether the, whether the dogs got together or not, I'm not sure. Yeah.

But yeah, so anyway, it's just kind of interesting story, you know, kind of a fun, yeah, fun deal. Yeah, definitely. It brings two traditional, you know, powerhouses of different eras together in one story.

And it's always fascinating to look at that. And you have a lot of different stories like this, Tim, where you go back in time and football and grab some of these things that we would never even imagine happening or who would think of Yale and Georgia playing today. Our modern brains can't even fathom that, but you have some great things like that, that people can enjoy on your website.

But maybe you could share with how people can enjoy this on a regular basis. Yeah. Best thing to do is just go to the footballarchaeology.com, subscribe, and then you'll get an email every time that I release a story, which, you know, nowadays I'm, you know, three, sometimes four a week, sometimes two, if I'm feeling lazy or just busy.

So that's the best way. You can also follow me on Twitter, on threads or on the app within Substack, which is, you know, where football archaeology is based. All right.

Well, that's a great, great investment of time to learn about football on a regular basis and see some of these things from antiquity. And we would love to talk to you again next Tuesday about another aspect of football history.

Very good.

We'll find something to talk about. That's all the football history we have today, folks. Join us back tomorrow for more of your football history.

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The ability to change direction on a dime, explode past defenders, and leave them grasping at air – these are the hallmarks of a truly agile football player. But how did these skills develop throughout the game's history? And how can modern players hone their footwork for peak performance?

No time for a video? Check out the Agility Drill Podcast version

Join us as we delve into the world of football agility drills with renowned football historian Timothy Brown. Mr. Brown's deep knowledge of the game's past sheds light on how training methods have evolved, offering valuable insights for players and coaches alike. In this exclusive interview, he'll be sharing:

-Historical Drills: Explore the agility drills used by legendary players of the past, and see how they've shaped modern training techniques.

-Drill Evolution: Learn how agility drills have adapted to the ever-changing demands of the modern game.

So, lace up your cleats and prepare to elevate your game. With Mr. Brown's expert guidance, you'll be well on your way to developing the lightning-fast footwork that separates the good from the great on the gridiron.

-Timothy Brown Box Aglity Drills

I've got an image that shows one of the early agility drills. And what this is, this shows, it was a 1921 Kansas State team. And, you know, they're, they're working out and they're trying to become more agile.

So nowadays, there's, you know, we have all these agility drills, and people run through ropes, or they, you know, but for a long time, people ran through tires, or in this case, they ran through wooden boxes. And, you know, it's same kind of thing as we asked players to do today, you're running through an obstacle course, sometimes they have these boxes, you know, pushed off to the right and left. And they got to do, you know, run with high knees, and they're double stepping or whatever, you know, whatever the coach told them that they needed to do.

So it was a way, not so much. Well, certainly it helped from a conditioning standpoint, but a lot of it was just trying to build agility. And, and, you know, kind of looseness of the step and the ability to cut and change direction.

But at the time, the best that they could come up with was either old car tires, or wooden boxes like this. And you know, you have to look at this and say, how many guys tripped on these things, and scuffed up their shins or broke a leg or whatever. And so, you know, it turned out that there was a guy named Joe, I believe it's pronounced Paupa.

He had coached the Chicago's Navy Peer Team during World War One. But he and he was a guy who in the 40s, who invited who invented what he called the runner training apparatus. But those are the ropes that we all know and love and that we probably ran through, you know, high-stepping at some point in our career, even if we were linemen.

So that he was the guy who invented the ropes. But you know, you think there's a lot of training devices and steps that people do nowadays. But they originated with obstacles like these boxes or tires, and then ultimately ropes.

And now there are ladders and, you know, different devices, all trying to get people to become more agile, lift their feet, and do other things.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Timothy Brown joins Darin Hayes to spotlight the significant yet often overlooked contributions of Henry Mitchell McCracken to the safety and evolution of American football. McCracken, who became NYU's chancellor in the late 19th century, played a pivotal role in advocating for safer rules in the sport during a time when football was facing scrutiny for its dangers.

Of course, this discussion all stems from Tim's original article titled: Stadium Size, Football Droppers, and Deemphasizers: NYU .

The audio-only podcast of the discussion can be found at: Henry McCracken Contributions.

Following the tragic death of a player during a game, the NYU Chancellor galvanized university leaders to convene and develop new regulations, ultimately leading to the formation of what is now the NCAA. The discussion delves into McCracken's legacy, including his influence on the establishment of halls of fame in the United States and his efforts to reform the game. Join us as we explore these fascinating historical insights and uncover the impact of McCracken's work on modern college football.

The conversation unfolds as Darin Hayes and Timothy Brown recount the historical landscape of football in the early 1900s, shedding light on the challenges and dangers the sport posed to its players. Timothy elaborates on the culture of college athletics at that time, where university presidents and chancellors, like McCracken, wielded significant influence over the direction of sports programs. The episode paints a vivid picture of the educational values intertwined with athletics, as faculty members played a crucial role in governance, leading to a system that prioritized student safety amidst the chaotic nature of early football games. The narrative details how McCracken's response to a fatal accident during a game exemplified the urgent need for reform in college football, ultimately resulting in a collaborative effort from various universities to establish safer playing conditions. This historical reflection not only honors McCracken's contributions but also invites listeners to consider the ongoing evolution of sports governance and safety in today's athletic landscape, drawing parallels between past and present.

Takeaways

-The podcast discusses the contributions of Henry Mitchell McCracken to football safety and history.

-Timothy Brown highlights McCracken's role in establishing the first Hall of Fame in America.

-McCracken's advocacy led to significant changes in football rules after a player was killed.

-The episode emphasizes how college sports governance was once more influenced by university presidents.

-The origins of the NCAA can be traced back to McCracken's initiatives in the early 1900s.

-Listeners learn about the historical context of college football's evolution and its challenges.