Football History

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Timothy P. Brown of Football Archaeology.com reminds us of the precautions to have football games played in stadiums during World War II.

The story of how fear of the unknown led to mayhem in the skies above NY during WWII is told by Tim in this episode of our podcast.

-Transcribed Conversation with Timothy Brown on an Aeriel Atack Yankee Stadium

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another evening when we get to talk to Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com about one of his famous tidbits that comes out daily. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Darin, thanks for having me this evening.

I feel honored now that I am in the presence of a published author. Well, thank you. Just, hey, congratulations.

I mean, you know, I know the amount of work you put into it and just encourage everybody to pick up. I'll let you do the plug yourself, but, you know, just, you know, great stuff, great stuff on an old-time team. Well, thank you.

You were a big part of that, and I appreciate it. And folks, the name of the book is The World's Greatest Pro Gridiron Team. We've talked about it before in the podcast.

We won't belabor you too much on that. But Tim was gracious enough to do some research on some of the bonus content we have in there. We did something a little bit different.

So, not only do you have links to explore some things beyond the book in the e-book, but also in the hard copy books, we have QR codes. You can use your smart device to access them. And I think we have three or four from Tim that go in there and talk about some good old-time football, just to set the mood for 1903 football.

Cause most of us sit there and read it and say, what does this mean? Well, we have a man who knows that era very well through his research. So we appreciate your help there and the advice along the way. And we appreciate you, Tim.

No problem. Good time. Now we're going to go back into one of your tidbits tonight with, you know, back in the earlier days, I guess this one's from this year that we're going to be doing, but back a few months ago and talk about something, you know, we're not that familiar with wartime and sports and being in stadiums.

Okay. We know a little bit about COVID-19; we know terrorist attacks and going through security and everything. We're familiar with that, but we're going back to an era when the country was at war and could be in danger.

You know, people didn't know at the time if they were in danger or not. And I think it's really an interesting topic that you wrote about back in May, and you titled it an aerial attack at Yankee Stadium. And we'd love to hear all about it.

So this, this is, I mean, to me, just like you said, it's an interesting thing to try to put yourself back in the time and the uncertainty they faced. All right. I mean, there are things we know now that either the Japanese or the Germans had this capability or that, but they weren't sure, you know, they weren't sure how things were going.

So just to kind of set the stage a little bit, you know, it's so December 7th, 1941, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. And, you know, so one of the things, one of the consequences of that was that the folks on the West coast, the civil defense people, were concerned about trying to gather 80,000 people into the Rose Bowl on, you know, a glorious January 1st. So they said, no, you can't hold the game here in California.

The Rose Bowl was transferred to Durham, North Carolina because Duke was one of the teams that were playing. Likewise, the Shrine East-West game, which is an all-star game based in San Francisco, was transferred to New Orleans that year. So, okay, we get past football season, and then, you know, on the East Coast, you know, while the Germans didn't have aircraft carriers as the Japanese did, they had a lot of submarines.

And so there was, you know, back in the time, there were certain like planes that could launch from, from submarines, you know, just the old biplane kind of thing. But anyways, they, and, you know, the Germans were seeing a lot of shipping, you know, 630 some ships got sunk along the East coast, you know, during 42 and, you know, that period. So they did things like, you know, they, FDR green-lighted sports, but auto racing, motorcycle racing was banned to save, you know, tires and gasoline.

And in places like Yankee Stadium, one of the impacts was, you know, they just never knew what would happen if somebody attacked the place, right? If, somehow, the Germans had some capability, they would attack Yankee Stadium during a baseball game. And so they set up this process where they had signs all over the stadium that was basically, you know, evacuation boats, you know, I mean if you've been in cities like, you know, well, LA has them and, you know, other places where there's these tsunami signs, if you're near the beach, you know, the Pacific Northwest, same thing. It's like, okay, here's these signs.

Here's what happens if there's a tsunami, you know, you get out of there. Yeah. Yeah.

Run like hell. Yeah. But in Yankee Stadium, it was like, if you were in the upper deck or you were in the box seats or the grandstands with bleachers, whatever, you know, it had different escape routes for you.

And so that's all baseball stuff. And now, I also should have said that because of blackout conditions, like night games, they didn't have any night games, you know, at least in 1942. And so then, you know, Yankee Stadium at the time was still a popular place for football games, both college and pro.

And so, you know, I think I've sold it since, but, you know, I had a copy of a 1942 Army versus Princeton football program and, you know, played at Yankee Stadium. And, you know, with the inside of the, you know, one of the ads or pieces of information, you know, it had in there was just, it told you, okay, like I said, if you're in this section, here's your escape route, proceed this way, run out to such and such Avenue or whatever, you know, you can get the hell out of the Bronx. So anyway, it's just one of those things; you just can't imagine it.

You know, it's just not; I mean, now we do go through security. And so maybe it's, it is more imaginable now, but, you know, it's just one of those things you just, you just don't think about that happening. And so just one other little point about that game and that season was that, you know, Princeton and Army played on, you know, one Saturday, and then the next one was the Army-Navy game.

And so again, due to work time conditions, they moved it from Philadelphia to Navy Stadium in Annapolis because they wanted to have a smaller crowd, which was going to be the case there. And they would only sell tickets to people who lived within 10 miles of the stadium because they wanted to reduce people traveling to the game, you know, and eating up gas or whatever, you know. So it's just one of those interesting things that occurred.

And I think by 43, the concerns about hacks on the, I mean, there were still concerns about espionage, and concerns about attacks from a military standpoint had dissipated. But, you know, by then, you know, a lot of guys were getting drafted, being enlisted. So, you know, the NFL had teams merge, you know, the Steelers, and were they the Pirates then or the? The Steelers with the Eagles or the Steagles.

The Steegles, yeah. And then they had the pick cards the next year, or maybe vice versa.

So, you know, like in the pro game, you know, roster limitations, they merged a team or two. And then in colleges, you know, a number of colleges dropped football, you know, during the war. So, it's just due to roster limitations and other things.

So, yeah, just one of those, one of those things a little bit hard to imagine now, but, you know, that's what happened back then. Yeah. One of the interesting things, I mean, I learned a lot from that post, but one of the things that sort of resonated with me that I sort of outside of sports is I didn't realize that the Germans didn't have aircraft carriers.

So, you know, I guess maybe that's because I always wondered, I'm like, why did they move the Rose Bowl from the West Coast to the East Coast? You know, you're still on a coastal, why not have it in Oklahoma or somewhere or the Cotton Bowl or something where it's safe, you know, there's no water around where you can, you know, worried about an aerial attack, but I didn't realize that the Germans didn't have aircraft carriers. So thank you for teaching me that. So, probably some of the same things are why Yankee Stadium and Annapolis didn't seem so scary, too, for, you know, the submarines couldn't attack them too much from there.

You're a little bit too far away from it. Yeah. So, yeah.

So yeah, again, just different time, and you just, you know, it's interesting to try to put yourself back in those, in those periods and kind of, you just, things happen that you just think about. Yeah, definitely some fun football facts, and you have some of these each and every day; as we said, you call them your tidbits, and maybe you could share with the audience for those who aren't familiar with it, how they too can participate in reading your tidbits each and every day. Yeah.

So, you know, the best thing is just to go to footballarchaeology.com and subscribe. You'll get an email every day at seven o'clock Eastern with today's, you know, little story and, you know, read them at your leisure, delete them if that's really what you want to do. But otherwise, just, you know, I know people let them pile up over the weekend or read them over the weekend, whatever, but that's the best way to subscribe.

Okay. Well, Tim, we really appreciate you coming here and sharing some of these great football facts with us each week. We appreciate you sharing your football knowledge in the book and, you know, some of the other things that you've done to help us all understand that, as well as footballarchaeology.com. And we will talk again next Tuesday.

Very good. And congratulations again. Thanks.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Timothy Brown of Football Archaeology joins us again this week to educate us on another aspect of football. This week Tim brings to us the honor he received in his research that brought him national attention. I am talking like the National Archives display attention! Listen in on Tim's great news!

-Transcribed Chat on the National Archives Celebration of Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And it is Tuesday.

And once again, we have our friend from FootballArcheology.com, Timothy P. Brown, the historian, the author, the great researcher of football, Tim Brown. Welcome back to the Pig Pen. Hey, thank you, sir.

Appreciate it, Darin. Looking forward to chatting once again. Yeah, Tim, you brought up a very interesting topic that you want to discuss tonight.

It's about something with the National Archives that you were able to be a part of, and hoping you could explain that to us and share it with us. And maybe some of us can get out there and witness it ourselves. Yeah.

So, you know, I posted a thing about this on my on football archaeology. But so basically what happened is I was invited to attend like a pre-opening of a new exhibit at the National Archives. And, you know, it was first time that I had been there.

But, you know, if you if you've been to D.C. and you checked out the National Archives Museum in the rotunda, they've got the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And then they have one room off to the side that has all kinds of, you know, kind of the history of the archives and the types of records they maintain, et cetera. Then, in the other direction is their special exhibit hall.

And so they recently opened an exhibit called All American, the Power of Sports. And so it's essentially a it's a it's an exhibit that will be open till for another like 14 months or so. But it's all about, you know, the role of sports in in bringing different types of people together.

And so in some cases, what they're, you know, is the emergence of opportunities for African-Americans in sports, for people of different ethnic backgrounds in sports, and for women as well. And so that's that's the general theme. And they've just got some really, you know, it's got some incredibly cool items, you know, a diary or autobiography, you know, that now I'm blanking on his first name, but big Boxer Johnson wrote while he was in, you know, the federal penitentiary.

There were all kinds of just really interesting artifacts, some things from, you know, Japanese internment camps. I mean, you name it. You know, there's a little bit of everything.

But and it was, you know, really nice events. I got to meet Anita Thorpe, Jim Thorpe's granddaughter, because one of the items on display is are his replacement medals, you know, from the 1912 Olympics. Dikembe Mutombo was the featured speaker.

So, you know, he gave a talk, and I had a chance to chat with him. And, you know, there are another, I don't know, half a dozen former NBA guys there. Did he shake his finger back at you? No.

Yeah. Well, I got close enough for him to strike me or wave his finger at me. But I tried to play nice with him.

So now he's, you know, really wonderful guy. He's doing some some great work raising funds for some challenges that, you know, are in Africa today. But but anyways.

And so the reason I was invited is that I had gotten involved in, you know, and, you know, did a lot of research on a story about the in the, you know, within the past year, the National Archives was processing some photographs, some old slides, actually, from West Point. And the guy who was doing the processing noticed that, you know, these were negatives. And so anyway, there are negatives.

He noticed that one of them, instead of all the people in the negative, had black faces in the negative; they had white faces. So he's like, oh, what's going on? You know, so anyway, he checked it out. It turned out to be this 1920s football team that represented the West Point Cavalry Detachment.

So they were Buffalo soldiers, so African-American men. And they were basically enlisted men stationed at West Point who taught, you know, maintain the stables and the horses but also taught horseback riding, et cetera, and cavalry tactics to the cadets, you know, many of whom grew up in a city and maybe didn't have a lot of, you know, experience in horsemanship. But these guys ended up, you know, having sports teams.

And West Point had an enlisted men's league. So there were a group there's a group of enlisted men who supported who helped teach the cadets artillery tactics. And there were other people in like medical and there are other people, you know, so there were different functions and each of them fielded a team.

So as I was, you know, I basically tried to figure out who these guys were. And because, you know, there was an article in The Washington Post about it that hadn't gotten into the detail. So, I basically figured out who these guys played.

I was able to find images of the twenty-eight, twenty-nine, and thirty teams, you know, in the old, you know, Spalding-type football guys. And so, you know, basically, I could start identifying who some of these guys were in the picture. While I was doing that research, I ended up seeing this trophy that a guy had online and, like, you know, a collectors group on Facebook.

And it was like it was a trophy for this West Point enlisted men's league awarded to the cavalry detachment. So I got a hold of them. And, you know, one thing led to another.

You know, it's just we've become friends. Ron Pomprey is the the owner. But when I wrote this stuff up, then the National Archives somehow came across it.

And so they reached out to the combination of Ron and I. And so he has his trophy on loan to the archives and as part of the exhibit. So it's just so that's why the two of us were invited to this thing and, you know, had a wonderful time. And so it was just a great event.

And, you know, there are some people there who just kind of stay in touch. And, you know, I just don't want to go into the names right now, but I'll just have that be very, very cool. What an honor to have something that you wrote be recognized by the National Archives.

And you get invited to go down there and celebrate, you know, this great sports heritage that we have seen here in the United States, along with the owner of the trophy. So that's really cool. Let's.

Yeah. Congratulations on that. Yeah.

So it's anyway, it's really fun. And, you know, just it's a great exhibit. And so if you live in the area generally or if you have plans to go to Washington, yeah, check it out.

You know, I mean, you could you could do it inside of an hour, probably, you know, and get a pretty good, pretty thorough going through. But really, it's a fun exhibit. And then the other reason I just want to point it out is that I. Have been trying to find ways to get some publicity around some of the research that I've done because I've kind of hit a wall.

And so. Anybody out there who was listening to this, who is aware of an ancestor who was with the cavalry detachment. At West Point in the 20s.

But please take a look at the site because I may have images of your grandfather, great uncle, great great, you know, whatever it may be, whatever the relationship may be. So I'm trying to trying to get people to go out there to see if we can identify some additional, you know, some more of these men. Right.

I probably figured out who half of them are, you know, and tracked them down through census records and everything. But there are others. All I have is the last name.

And I just haven't been able to get anywhere with them. Yeah. Get them recognized.

It would be so awesome to have them preserved in history as well and get the recognition they deserve for being, you know, such a pioneer and a trailblazer for what they did. So, yeah. And just, you know, for, you know, all the folks out there, you know, it's just cool to kind of learn something.

You know, I reached out to one or two people who weren't aware that their grandfather or green uncle had been on these teams, you know. So it was something they learned, something new. Yeah, definitely.

Very cool. OK, now I'm going to expose my ignorance, at least my ignorance, in one area. I have many ignorances.

But OK, the National Archives, we know that Washington, D.C., is that connected to the Smithsonian and the Library of Congress, or are they all separate entities? Boy, yeah. In terms of organizational structure on that, I do not know. I mean, you know, I think the archives, I think, you know, basically their basic charge is to maintain the history of all public records.

You know, so obviously, they're involved in some of the things going on now with Mar-a-Lago, et cetera. But, you know, that's that's their main charge. And so, I mean, they've got census records.

They've got all kinds of geologic and, you know, you name it. You know, just all kinds of things that. You know, one government entity or another generated the military personnel records, you know, fall under them.

So, I mean, they've got a massive charge. You know, they've got a lot of work to do. So.

All right. So maybe it's a little different. The Smithsonian is just all the other stuff that's the things and the archives is the records and the documentation and data that's collected.

OK, I gotcha. Yeah, gotcha. OK, well, Tim, I very much appreciate you joining us.

Before we let you go, why don't you share with us your website and how people can stay in touch with you and learn about what you share with your tidbits? Yeah. So my website is footballarchaeology.com. It's a substack site, if that means anything to you. But basically, just, you know, just go to the address footballarchaeology.com. You can subscribe there.

That'll result in you getting an email every day with whatever that day's story is. You can also follow me on Twitter, and I'm a football archaeologist there as well. So, following on Twitter is great.

But the unfortunate thing is you might miss a couple of episodes here and there. So if you subscribe, you're going to get every one of them. You can still delete them if you don't want to read them.

But if you miss it, you don't have time to read it. Save it in your inbox, and you can double the pleasure the next day. So that's yeah, you know, and most of them take less than a minute to read.

So, you know, they're they're pretty quick. But good stuff as always. Congratulations again on that great honor of being recognized and getting to go down there and on that visit with your friend who has the trophy.

So, you know, Tim, we enjoy your company each and every Tuesday. Hope that we can continue to do this and talk to you again next Tuesday and get some more football archaeology brought into the pig pen. So, thanks, Tim.

Hey, very good. Thanks, Darin. I appreciate it, as always.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Touchdowns are the ultimate goal in American football, and the ensuing celebrations are as varied as the players themselves. From the simple ball spike to elaborate choreographed dances, these jubilant displays follow spectacular plays like pick sixes, scoop scores, and successful field goals or extra point attempts.

Before the modern era of choreographed celebration dances and meticulously planned two-point conversion attempts, scoring in football was a simpler, yet no less dramatic, affair. While the thrill of a touchdown, the tension of a field goal, and the rare excitement of a pick six or scoop score have remained constant throughout the sport's history, the methods for tallying points have evolved significantly. Imagine a time before the ball spike became a post-touchdown staple or when the extra point wasn't always a given. Even the elusive safety, the ultimate defensive TD, has a history. This story explores the fascinating evolution of scoring in football, from its early days to the modern game, examining how each method, from the standard touchdown to the rarely seen special score, has contributed to the sport's rich tapestry.

Original Scoring in Football Methods

We are so used to scoring in football, which is a touchdown equating to six points with the opportunity for another point or two available with a successful PAT. Likewise, a field goal is worth three, and so on. But what if we learn that football has not always had the tally in that way with points?

Timothy Brown of Football Archaeology joins us again this week to educate us on another aspect of football. This week we chat about the evolution of football scoring and the time before the current point-based system. Timothy Brown's FootballArchaeology.com has a daily football factoid that he shares that is really quite interesting in a short read. They preserve football history in a very unique way and we are quite happy that Tim has agreed to join us each week to go over some of his Today's Tidbits. Click that link and you can subscribe for free to receive them yourself each evening.

Of course, this discussion all stems from Tim's original article titled: Football Before Points-Based Scoring.

-Transcribed Conversation on Football Points-Based Scoring with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And we are at our Tuesday event, what everybody's been waiting for: Football Archaeology with author Timothy Brown. Tim Brown, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin; thank you once again. I look forward to chatting and seeing what we find out today. Yeah, no, Tim, you have some really interesting topics that come up on your tidbits and some of the other works that you put out.

And I know you have a lot of different avenues where you're bringing in information for your research. But one of them that I know you've mentioned in the past, and maybe go into a little bit more detail, is the collection that you have of some college yearbooks. And maybe you can share a little bit about how you get information from those.

Yeah, so I actually only have about I probably have about a dozen college yearbooks that I physically own. But I've got a couple thousand that are, you know, PDFs. And then I subscribe to a thing called eyearbooks.com. So if I'm able to download them, I download them, you know, from university sites, just because then it's just handier, it's easier to search through them.

But you know, basically, what I do is if I'm watching a football game or kind of listening to the news, but not really paying full attention, a lot of times I'm just, you know, scrolling through college yearbooks, looking for images. You know, it could be the artwork in, you know, the athletic or football-related artwork, but mostly, I'm looking for images that just show something about the game at the time that is not, you know, it's no longer part of the game, or it just it illustrates a concept. And other times, it's just, hey, it's just a really cool-looking image, right? I mean, some of the photographs are just great.

And so, you know, what I do is I just have a way of pulling those off; I kind of catalog them with a brief description. And then, you know, sometime down the road, when I'm looking for a topic for a tidbit, or, you know, for an article that I'm writing, you know, I kind of scroll through my items to do searches on them. And, you know, so I've just got handy, you know, I've probably got, I know, I've looked at over, you know, 3100 yearbooks.

So and, I can tell you which issue is for every school, maybe 140 different schools now. So, you know, and then I just, you know, basically, I've got them available in the little library. So anyways, that's, you know, a lot of the way I illustrate stories or generate stories, it's just looking through these old images.

Like, oh, yeah, I haven't talked about this one yet. So let's do a story about it. So a lot of times, the images that you're collecting are, whether it's through PDF or from the yearbooks in your own collection, those are your inspiration for some of your posts and tidbits.

Yeah, you know, because there's the unfortunate thing with the yearbooks, there really isn't a good way to just search through all these yearbooks. So, you know, in some cases, I know, for instance, that I'm, you know, I'm writing about a particular topic; I came across an article while I was doing some other research. And then I'll go to that yearbook, you know, that team's yearbooks, to see if there are images that relate to the article I'm writing.

But, you know, certainly a lot of times, I'm just going in, you know, I found, you know, in all in, in all the yearbooks that I've got, I found two images of the punt out process, you know, so, you know, basically a part of the game that disappeared in 1922. And, but I found two punt outs, you know, and it's just, it was great, just because, you know, if you didn't know what a punt out was, you wouldn't even know what the heck that image was, or what it was representing. But I, you know, I spotted these two, I think one in Texas, and one, one was a Chicago game, maybe might have been an Illinois yearbook.

But anyway, you know, it's just kind of cool stuff, just finding these things that, you know, at least it shows, hey, this really did exist. Right. It wasn't just a story.

That's interesting. And you bring something to light that many of us don't know. I mean, even somebody like myself, I learned something new almost every day.

And I'm, I'm quite a bit in the books and newspapers and everything else in football history, but I learned something from your tidbits each and every day. So I think listeners, you can too, we'll give you some information near the end of this program. So, and it's in the show notes as well.

So you can get connected with Tim and the great tidbits he has each and every day. But today's topic, we're talking about old football, but we're talking about even a little older than your, uh, the pun outs of, uh, you know, 1922 when they ended, uh, going to football before points-based scoring. And, uh, I think that's an interesting topic you had back on September 9th. It is one of your tidbits, and I hope that you could chat about that a little bit tonight.

Yeah. So, you know, uh, you know, football, as we, as everybody knows, is derived from rugby. And when the, uh, intercollegiate football association met in, uh, 1876, they basically adopted the rugby rule book with three or four exceptions.

You know, they did change a couple of things. Um, and one of the things was just kind of renaming, you know, they named whatever rugby call it, they called it touchdown instead. Um, but so the scoring was just, it's not what we think of as a normal scoring system today.

So I'm going to read this just because it's kind of bizarre, but, um, rule number seven from that rule book defined, you know, the scoring process in one; it says a match shall be decided by the majority of touchdowns. A goal, a goal shall be equal to four touchdowns, but in case of a tie, a goal kick from a touchdown shall take precedence over four touchdowns. I mean, that just sounds like total gobbledygook, but you know, back then, the goal or the purpose of football, what you were trying to do was to kick the ball through the uprights, and a touchdown was really just a means to an end.

It wasn't the end. It's, you know, for the most part, it wasn't the end itself. So you wanted to kick; you wanted to score a touchdown because then you got a free kick at the goal.

Um, and you know, you also, um, and so, you know, now we all know that the touchdown is what really counts, you know, at six points in the, the kick after the touchdown is only worth one. But back then, the game was very much a kicking game. Um, and so, you know, the value came in, in, uh, kicking goals.

And so, you know, it was basically, um, you know, it was this equivalency-based system. It wasn't a straight-point process. Like we, I think virtually every sport used today is just this kind of gobbledygook: a goal shall be equal to four touchdowns.

Um, so, you know, so basically, you'd have four touchdowns to add the same value as just one goal kicked through the, um, you know, through the uprights. Uh, however, if you, a goal kicked from touchdown, meaning a goal kicked after the touchdown, if two teams ended up tied, one had four touchdowns, the other had a goal kicked after the touchdown, then that the latter team would win. That's what the last part of that rule meant.

Okay. So the kick, the kick, uh, took the kick being good was more important than the four touchdowns, which equal the same amount of points. Yes, because it was; it came the kick, and the kick came after a touchdown.

Okay. Gotcha. You know, as opposed to a goal from the field, which would have just equaled the goal.

Now I know you have this, uh, in your book, uh, how football became a football, but I'm not recollecting the year right off hand. When did that sort of change from that, that, goal, uh, scored to more of a point-based? Yeah.

So 1883. So still, you know, very early on in the game. And once that occurred, then, um, a goal from the field, what we call field goal.

So as a scrimmage kicked goal could, could have been dropped. Well, at that point it would have all been dropped kicks, but that was worth five points. The goal from touchdown or try after touchdown was worth four points and a touchdown was worth two.

So, in effect, the field goals were five. Um, and then the combination of a touchdown and the kick afterward was six points, right? So, you know, it kind of was making a touchdown worth one point. Right.

Uh, and, and then, you know, safety was one point that year. Um, and then, you know, things, they kept tweaking it as, basically, people became more interested in moving the ball down the field and scoring touchdowns as opposed to kicking goals. Then they kept ratcheting up, um, the value of the touchdown, um, relative to the field goal.

And part of that, too, was just the, you know, they just, they felt, you know, that football was a team game, and they didn't want so much of the point value resting on the ability of a kicker. They wanted, you know, the ability of all 11 to show through. And so the, you know, so they were, they kept adjusting the, the point values until, you know, basically 1912 is when, when we got to our current scoring system, not including two-point conversions and, and, uh, you know, some of the defensive, uh, you know, the one point safety and defensive scores after, you know, extra points, those kinds of things.

Well, we're certainly glad that they did, uh, change it to the way it is now with a touchdown being more, uh, important than, than the field goal and the extra point, because it really changed the landscape of the game and made it a more exciting game and the great game it is today. So, yeah. And it's, you know, it's always, uh, I think especially Europeans make fun of us for having a game called football, where the foot really isn't as big a part of the game as it used to be, but it once was, you know, that that's, that's for sure.

And we just take it for granted. We don't even think about the foot and football being related to the foot. Really.

We just, it's just football. Yeah. So yeah.

Yeah. Very interesting. Tim, why don't you share now? We promised earlier that you would share where, uh, people could get their own subscription or get their own daily dose of your tidbits and, uh, give them the information, please.

Yeah. So, uh, I published a tidbit every day, uh, on, uh, football, archaeology.com, a couple of times a month. I'll publish some other long-form articles.

And then I also published the links to, you know, your, um, your podcast, uh, on the site. So it's football archaeology.com. You can also find me on Twitter under the football archaeology name. And if you were intrigued enough by our conversation about punt outs, there is a story about punt outs that I wrote, I don't know, two years ago, something like that.

So it explains that whole process. So, um, on the, on the front page, there's one of those little magnifying glass search functions. And so you just type in punt and it'll be, you know, it'll pop up without, without an issue.

Okay. Tim Brown, footballarchaeology.com. We thank you once again for sharing your knowledge, your wisdom, and your daily tidbits. And, uh, we'll hopefully be talking to you again next week.

Okay. Very good. Thanks again.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

---

Eddie Dooley was many things, including a journalist and a politician: A sports reporter and columnist for the Richmond Times-Dispatch. He also had some radio broadcasts that Football Archaeology covers in the gist of the feature story.

Here are some other accomplishments of Dooley that led to his popular name in the gridiron realm of the era:

-Edwin Dooley: A Dartmouth College football star and All-American quarterback nicknamed "Death Dooley" for his killer instinct on the field. He later served as a successful businessman and public servant.

-Eddie Dooley (football coach): Head coach for the University of Kansas football team from 2009 to 2011.

-Transcribed Conversation with Timothy Brown on Eddie Dooley

Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another Tuesday where we get to talk to Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com about one of his famous tidbits, some daily little factoids of football that make you think and appreciate the days gone by in the realm of the gridiron. So, Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Thank you, Darin. I look forward to chatting again today and seeing what we come up with.

Yeah, Tim, I want to attend one of the entertaining ones. It takes you back to a different marketing era and using football. You titled this tidbit back in September 2022.

Can you believe it's been that long since you wrote this? It's called Eddie Dooley's 1936 All-America Team Contest. So why don't you explain to us what that is and what Eddie Dooley was doing? Yeah, so I think anybody who reads or listens regularly probably knows that I collect old.

Well, they're composite schedules, but, you know, they're these little giveaways that used to be available. They're just like the little pocket card schedules we get today. But they were available at least from the 20s and probably a little bit earlier than that.

And I'm talking 1920s, not, you know, 2020s. So, you know, it would have listed all the games, and for every team that's in the play, it would have listed their schedule for the year. And then it would have just little things about, you know, the teams they expected to be, you know, great teams this year and who the All-Americans were last year, things like that.

These were just little things you carried around. And, you know, they didn't have the Internet then, so you wanted to see who's playing this coming Saturday.

Boom, you looked at the schedule. And so this particular one was put out by Royal Typewriters. So, you know, if you went into a typewriter store, you could potentially pick up one of these little booklets.

Then, their star was a guy named Eddie Dooley. So he was a quarterback at Dartmouth in the 20s, then became a newspaperman, and then became a radio announcer. So he had a syndicated radio show that basically ran on Thursday nights where he would make predictions about that Saturday's game.

And then, on Saturday, Saturday evening, he was based out of New York. So Saturday evening, he's running through the scores, who won the big games, and that kind of stuff. And I'm sure at the time, the West Coast fans got all PO'd because they may not have finished their game yet.

So he couldn't report on him. And, you know, so they felt like they were getting shat upon East. But anyway, strikes again.

Yeah. East Coast bias back in 1936. So.

So anyways, so so this is a 1936 season. And so one of the things they did, you know, I mean, it's no different than what we do today to try to engage our our followers or to try to. And, you know, if you're selling something, you're trying to get people involved in the brand.

And so what they did was in the booklet, there was a little form that you could fill out at the end of the season that where you'd list the what you basically what you try to do is Eddie was going to name an All-American team. Then, you submitted your list of names for the All-American team. And there was a seventy-five-dollar third-place prize. There was a hundred-dollar second place and a five-hundred-dollar first-place prize.

So for whoever could. Come the closest to matching Eddie's All-American. So, you know, it turned out that Eddie's All-American team.

Kind of had East Coast bias, so there were four Ivy Leaguers, some of whom I'm sure made sense, including one who won the Heisman Trophy, Larry Kelly. And, you know, there were still five guys from New York and further to the Northeast who made this team. So he wasn't quite as bad as what Walter Camp did, where almost everybody was.

From the Ivy League. Yeah. I mean, Camp one year had all eleven Yale players.

Right. The first, second, or third All-American team, but they were good. So anyway.

So he held this contest, and then it turned out that this was my favorite. Just there were guys, and I forget, you know, I don't really care about them who were first and second place. But third place was Mrs. Eva Lou Edwards of Hammond, Louisiana. So she picked up seventy-five bucks for coming in third place.

That's like a week's payback, then to seventy-five dollars. I still have a chump change. That's good.

Good money. Yeah. That was some serious cash.

Then, each of the players who were named to Eddie's All-American team got a Royal typewriter, too. So nice. I mean, that would be like, you know, it's like getting a computer or whatever today.

One of the other fun little things about that was that Eddie, the guy who came in third in the Heisman that year, named him to the team. And I don't know how you pronounce his name, but Ray Buivid, Buivid, something like that. It's B-U-I-V-I-D.

And he played for Marquette. So, it's not a school that we associate with, you know, football All-Americans. And he's in the Midwest.

How do you make that team? Yeah, well, he made it. But he did. You know, he came in third in the Heisman.

So he was nationally recognized, and Marquette played in the Cotton Bowl that year. You know, so they were, you know, considered a pretty top team. And so that was Marquette's first and only football bowl that they played in.

And then, you know, they eventually dropped football in, like, 1960. But so, you know, this Eddie Dooley was, you know, he was like it, you know, he would have been whatever the Kirk Herbstreit or somebody like that of his age, you know, nationally prominent guy. And then, you know, he announced for a number of years.

And then eventually he ended up getting into politics and he served three terms in Congress. So I forget exactly which state he served with, but or for. But so anyways, you know, even back then, former football players or coaches or whomever or media stars, you know, got themselves elected to Congress.

So, some things never change. Yeah. And you have a great image of Eddie. It must be in one of the promo ads on the football archaeology dot com story on this.

And folks, you can follow that in the show notes of this podcast. Go right to Tim's site to see this. And Eddie has a great face for television.

He probably would have been great at the television, too, because he just has that look, you know, the hair's, you know, perfectly parted, and you sort of got the shit-eating grin on his face, and he's ready to go and talk some football. So he's got me pumped up. So a great story.

Love it. I love the typewriters. Eddie would have played.

I'm just thinking about that. Eddie would have played for Jess Hawley because Hawley was the coach at Dartmouth at the time. And he was, you know, I mean, they had a really good team.

They were national champions. He's six, you know, and Hawley had coached Iowa before before Dartmouth. So he was.

Now, like I said, he's kind of a Herb Street only is probably a better quarterback in college, you know, but that's kind of the nature of the person, you know, the the media star that he was. Yeah, you could tell he's got a little bit of personality to him, I guess, is what I was trying to say in the image of him, too. So great, great stuff.

You know, you have these things from your collection, and you share and dig up the story and the research. And you do this, you know, on a daily basis, which is amazing and a real tribute to what you're doing and for your tidbits. People love to read this stuff and love to hear you when you come on the show, and you get great responses from it.

But maybe you could share with the audience how they, too, can enjoy your tidbits on a daily basis. Yeah, so the easiest thing is just to go to footballarchaeology.com and subscribe. You know, there are a bunch of different ways you can subscribe there.

It's free. You can also do paid subscriptions, which is perfectly OK with me. But, you know, it's available to you.

And if you don't want to get the email every day, which, you know, just ensures you're going to get it. You can also just follow me on Twitter, where I reach about three people every day. Or, you know, that's not true, folks.

He has good following on Twitter. Yeah, but only three of them see it every day. But anyway, that's another story.

And then I'm also on the Substack app because that's where I publish and then threads, you know, or just bookmark the site and pop in whenever you're in the mood for old-time football stuff. Well, excellent job as always, and we really appreciate you sharing with us each week of some of your great stories. And we would love to share with you again next Tuesday.

Very good. Look forward to it.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

---

Ever wondered why quarterbacks wear the number 12 and running backs rock the digit 28? Today's episode dives into the fascinating origin story of American football jersey numbers. We'll travel back in time, uncovering the surprising reasons these numbers were first stitched onto jerseys, and how they evolved into the iconic system we know today. Get ready for a journey through gridiron history, filled with unexpected twists, forgotten rules, and the stories of the legendary players who cemented the tradition of numbered jerseys in the game we love. So, buckle up, grab your favorite jersey (with its number!), and join us as we unveil the fascinating tale behind football jersey numbers!

The early beginnings and origins of the uniform numbers on players are explored in this Football Archaeology feature.

-Transcribed Conversation on Player Number Origins with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to Tuesday. You know what it is. It's footballarchaeology.com day. And Timothy P. Brown of footballarchaeology.com is here to talk about another interesting tidbit he's had out recently. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Darin, how are you? Good to see you. I hope I've got your number tonight.

Well, you got my number. I don't know what the origin of that number is, but I think we're going to find out some of the origins of some player numbers. You had a recent tidbit on that very subject.

And it's something, you know, again, we've talked about this before in other episodes that we've talked about. Some things that we just don't appreciate all the time. You know, what the player number does on the jersey, you know, it's it's identifies the player.

It's almost like their name, you know, for a lot of places. For example, when you see the number 12 out there on a New England jersey, you're probably thinking of Tom Brady. First thing, you know, just but we associate that number with the player.

But it goes back into some things that are beyond that even. And I'd sure like to know the origins of these player numbers. Yeah.

So so some of this this one, you know, I've written about the origins of player numbers a bunch of times in the past. And but I was trying. Well, I was I did an article recently about the the hidden ball trick that the Carlisle executed against Harvard in 1903.

And just in doing that research, reading an article, there was a comment made. And so just to kind of reset the stage on that, you know, what happened is that the. Carlisle.

So, you know, brown patches on the front of their jerseys that match the color of the ball. And so that they could, you know, have their back, who didn't get the ball or whomever else kind of hunched over, act like they're carrying the ball. And, you know, the defense would be confused.

So and so, then they did that. But then they also, in that game, you know, they basically executed this play where there was a. On the kickoff, they were receiving a second-half kickoff, but anyway, they're receiving the kickoff. The Carlisle players go back to form a wedge, and the guy who gets the ball or, you know, who caught the ball.

You know, he kind of gathers the wedge in that web and stuffs the ball in the back under the shirt in the back of one of his teammates who had this elastic band at the bottom of his jersey. So the ball would stay there, you know, under the shirt. And so then they then they boom, they all scatter in different directions.

And this guy who's a was a guard or a tackle who doesn't look like a guy who you would give the ball to starts running upfield, acting like he's going to block, you know, for one of his teammates. And so because he's acting like he's blocking, all the Harvard guys are avoiding him. And he just takes off, runs down the field, and scores a touchdown.

So, you know, that's kind of everybody, you know, I'd been aware of that story and all that kind of thing. And he probably looked like Quasimodo running down the field, too. That's right.

The guy had no idea what to do. But there was a comment made in one of the articles about the game where the guy said, you know, the reporter said it would be great if all the players had numbers; we would have known who this guy was as he was running down the field. And so I thought, OK, I'd never come across that before.

And this is a 1903 game. So it's just got me to go back one more time to look at, OK, when, when did, as I had previously come across Amos Alonzo Stagg calling for numbers in 1901. So, two years before this Harvard-Carlisle game, I just figured, OK, I'll go again.

Can I find anybody else mentioning player numbers? And so then I ended up finding a 1904 reference. And I'm sorry, an 1894 reference from the Harvard-Yale game where some guy along the sidelines must have been some influential alum who said that you know, the players should be numbered. His comment was that the average observer finds as many differences in individuals as in a flock of blackbirds.

So, the first time I heard that reference. But, you know, but the point was that you know, you couldn't tell players apart half the time back then because they didn't have numbers. You know, they, they all kind of, the nature of the game, everybody bunched together.

It's hard to tell who was who, you know, who got the ball, who advanced it, who made the tackle. So, you know, people then, you know, people like Stagg started promoting using numbers. But the challenge and the pushback that they got was people saying, you know, there were basically three main challenges.

One was that they said if you number the players, which they'd started to do in baseball, and I think at first, it actually occurred in rugby in New Zealand. But if you number the players, then that promotes individualism. Football is a team sport.

And so we don't want to promote individuals. So it's this idealistic argument. There was also, from a coaching standpoint, a lot of coaches said, I don't want to number my players because that makes it easier for scouts or for the opposing player to identify who was who.

And to quickly figure out, OK, this is Smith's best running back. You have to watch out for Smith, and you have to make sure you know where Smith is lining up in the playoffs. Now, that all seems kind of dumb. I mean, I get it, but especially from the opposing player's standpoint, no one was wearing numbers on the front of their jerseys; it was only on their backs.

So the opposing players couldn't see them when they lined up anyways, you know, so, so that, you know, but that was, you know, that was the main challenge. And then there was also, you know, people also would say, well, football is for these college players, it's a college sport, you know, there's none of this pro stuff yet or very little of it. And so it's not for the fans.

We don't want to change the game, we don't want to do things in the game to make fans happy; everything should be to make the players happy. Now, you know, as money increasingly got involved in things, and the fans were paying for the players, there are professional marketers of the gridiron just running off the podcast right now.

But, you know, that was a very common sentiment. So anyways, so then it. You know that, as far as I've been able to research, the earliest game in which players have war numbers, and it was a picture in the newspaper, and I published the picture a bunch of times, was a 1905 Iowa State at Drake game on Thanksgiving Day, and both teams were numbers and then, you know, over the next four or five years pit.

As far as I know, Pitt was the second team. They like to claim they were the first because they ignore the night, the Iowa State v. Drake game. Wichita State in 1908. Pitt was the first team in 1909. As far as I can tell, they were the first team to wear them for all games because a lot of times, the team would say I'll wear them, but only if the opponent wears the pit was like no, we're wearing them.

Part of their motivation was that they loved selling scorecards. So there's money involved, right?

Right. And then, in 1909, Michigan and Marquette formed, and then the same year, Cincinnati was too late for them, so those were, as far as I know, the whatever six or seven earliest examples of teams and/or games were. You know, players were numbers.

Yeah, you've done a great job of telling us that, and as you said, you've had a bunch of other fascinating posts on the numbers and some of their intricacies. We'll try to throw some of those links into the pigskin dispatch for this episode. So people can go back and enjoy some of that work with the alphanumerical and all the other crazy Roman numeral numbers. Yeah, four-digit numbers, and we'll put some of those up to so people can enjoy because there's a lot to do with the numbers on jerseys, and it's a lot of fun, so we appreciate that you're doing that and doing the research on it.

You do research on some aspects of football, like every day. It's what you have: plucking things out of the air all over the place and taking us on a wild ride. Sometimes, you have themes like these numbers, but they usually spare my part. Where can people enjoy your tidbits each day? Just go to football archaeology calm.

You can subscribe there. If you subscribe, you'll get an email every night at seven o'clock Eastern with that, you know, that day's episode, and you know there are people who read them five minutes after I publish them, there are other people who, you know, I can just tell by, you know, certain patterns that I can see in the data. Some people like storm up, and they read them on the weekend, so at least you know you have them. If you get the email, you have them. Otherwise, you can follow me on Twitter, Threads, or the subject platform.

All right, Timothy Brown of footballarchaeology.com we thank you very much, sir, for joining us here and we will talk to you again next Tuesday. Very good. Thanks as always.

Love the football jersey designs and evolution wait till you check out the History of American Football Jersey.

-Football Jersey Frequently Asked Questions

-What are American football jerseys made of? Modern jerseys are a mix of synthetic fibers such as polyester or a blend of different materials such asspandex, for more check out our in-depth study ofThe Make up and Materials of Football Jerseys.

-What are some of the unique football jerseys in history? Gridiron jerseys with logos on the front were some what of fad once upon a time. Check this story titled Football Jerseys with Emblems.

-Whose college football jersey was the first to be retured? Red Grange's Number 77 Ilinois Illini jersey was the first college uni to be shelved in 1925. There were a couple more about the same time and we chatted with a college football expert historian help divulge College Football and its First Retired Jerseys.

-Who are some of the most famous NFL players at each jersey number? From Red Grange's jersey number 77 to Tom Brady's iconic number 12, a slew of NFL players made their digits proud. Want to know more? You are in the right place as we covered all 100 jersey numbers and the best to wear each:About Football By Numbers.

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Pop Warner is one of the most well-known names for early football coaching. The innovator contributed much to the game in its early years.

Timothy Brown of Football Archaeology sat down with us to chat about the first season that Glenn Pop Warner coached at team. It was at his alma mater and it was a significant season.

This conversation is based on Tim's original Tidbit titled: Warner and the Inexperienced Cornell Eleven.

-Transcribed Conversation on Pop Warner's 1sy Season with Timothy Brown[b]

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And talking about football history, we are going into football archaeology mode because it's Tuesday, and Timothy P. Brown is here to visit with us once again to talk about one of his fantastic posts that he puts out each and every day.

Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hello, Darin. Thanks for having me back. Looking forward to chatting once again.

This every Tuesday is really quite remarkable. Love hearing about your tidbits. You know, it's good to see your tidbits each and every day, but having a conversation about them once a week is really an amazing thing. Takes you a little bit more in-depth. You have Some other great facts through your research on some of these tidbits.

And today, you're going to talk about one of my favorite people in football, Glenn Pop Warner, who was born probably about an hour away from where I live, south of Buffalo, not too far from Erie. And, you know, I love Pop Warner stories, and he has so many great ones. He coached all over the country. So this one's a really interesting one from one of his early years that I love to hear about.

Yeah. Yeah. I think Pop Warner is just a fascinating character.

And so, you know, love him as well. But so, yeah, I think this is, this is another one of these where, you know, we bring certain assumptions to our view of football here in the 2020s that just were not the case back in the 1890s when this story is based. And so the key point here is that with Pop Warner being one of the guys like this, but, you know, before 1900 for sure.

And then even after that, a lot of people, a lot of, you know, young men ended up on college campuses who had never played football before and yet who went out for the football team. So, you know, if you lived out East and you were going to Harvard or Yale or something like that, well, chances are you probably attended some prep school, and they had a long history of football. You know, they started playing fairly early on, but if you were from, you know, small-town Kansas or Minnesota, they might've played and they might not, you know, I mean, there were certain, there was certainly football going on in the smallest and remotest of towns, but there was a lot of places where they just, they just weren't playing yet.

So, you know, you'd be aware of the game, it'd be in your local newspaper, but you may not have ever played. And so many top-notch athletes showed up on campus, not having any football experience. And so part of the coach's job was to figure out how to get those guys to join the team and try.

And so, you know, we've talked in the past about the alums who would come back and help coach. And a lot of that was they were teaching entirely, you know, they were teaching guys who had never played the game before. How do you block? How do you tackle it? How do you get out of your stance? All the stuff that, you know, most people now learn in youth football, or as freshmen in high school or sophomores in high school, whatever it may be, you know, they were, they had to pick up those skills as freshmen in college.

So, you know, the article is basically about him and the challenge of, you know, trying to get, at he was coaching at Cornell. He was; he had gone to Cornell and played for four years. And then I think he was gone for a year and came back at the time that, you know, this story occurred, but, you know, he's trying to figure out how do I get all these guys to join and then to get them schooled up in order to, you know, to feel the good team.

And so, you know, he was commenting that a lot of times back then, they used to call it the talent level, but they would call it the material. We have fine material, but it's inexperienced, right? And so that was his thing. And, you know, another piece of that was that it was just interesting. In that particular year, he had an athlete who had played center in the past, and he was considering having the guy play left halfback or right halfback.

And it was like, okay, how many times today in a college setting do you have one player, and you're going? Should I play him at center or halfback? Right? I mean, that just doesn't happen nowadays. You know, the body types of morphed and training and all that kind of stuff. But back then, I mean, that was just a kind of normal everyday thing.

Unfortunately for the guy, he ended up playing center. But, you know, yeah, so, you know, I think it's just that, you know, our thinking, you know, now we live in this world where these kids are recruited, you know, I mean, they're heavily recruited, and they've, you know, there's a game film, you know, there's plenty of film on every high school kid that's out there, you know, nowadays. And so, you know, but then it was like, you just, you called for, you know, he had tryouts, you called for everybody to come and join the team.

And it was whoever was there; it was there, right? And, you know, you would often have some guy who was a star fullback or tackle the previous year that, for whatever reason, financial or whatever, just didn't show up the next year. You know, the coaches wouldn't know necessarily, you know, they wouldn't have a whole lot of advance notice and just be like, oh, Bill didn't show up this year. So we got to find somebody else to play tackle.

You know, it's just the kind of manpower planning and depth charts that we think of today. Well, it might be turning back to that with the transfer portal. It seems like somebody's leaving constantly on teams, and new people are coming in.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole other story.

I mean, you know, just for one, I'm all for it. I mean, I may not like what it's doing to the game, but for the individual kids, I'm all for it. You know, I'm glad they get to go wherever they can go.

So, but yeah, I mean, it's just, you know, the, the, the center versus halfback thing is interesting just cause, you know, a lot of times, you know, centers were pretty good athletes back then, you know, meaning, you know, they were more like halfback or fullback type guys. A lot of times, teams pulled centers or, you know, expected them to do some special stuff. Um, you know, so they had to be pretty darn good athletes, but not a whole lot of, uh, not a whole lot of guys shifting from O line to the backfield these days, high school level.

Sure. Right. But it was a single-platoon football back in that era, too.

So, you know, they could use their athleticism at the center on defense, which we call a nose guard today, uh, you know, shooting gaps or whatever they had to do wording off to get a tackle. So, and it takes some certain athleticism to, uh, you know, rules were different than to, to get the ball snapped without getting your head knocked off too. I'm sure you had to be pretty quick at that.

So I can see where the transition is. That was a fascinating point, but it was something I really took out of that. It's sort of, uh, you know, like I said, I, uh, I like to read about pop Warner and I don't know that I've ever remembered this story and it's sort of, uh, you know, his humble beginnings, you know, I'm, you know, most of us are used to pop Warner, you know, developing, you know, a complicated single wing offense and the double wing and all these innovations he brought into football.

But just to sit there and think about the man, uh, you know, taking, having to take football, the very fundamentals and teach somebody that's not familiar with the game and, you know, put them out there on a Saturday to play as a, maybe a starting center or halfback or whatever. Uh, you know, it's just kind of an interesting aspect of the guy of the band, and probably all coaches at that time had to do something like that, or they couldn't, you know, have their schemes on play until they got the people up to speed. So, yeah.

Well, and I, but to your point, I think the fact that, um, Cornell wasn't the only school in that position, right? I mean, all their opponents, or any of their opponents anyway, were in the same kind of situation where, you know, they had a bunch of guys that had never played before. So, and, you know, I mean, that was one of the reasons why the freshmen rule, you know, worked to their advantage. Um, but, uh, you know, yeah, so it's, um, you know, Warner was just, uh, you know, he grew up in, like, as you said, I can't think of the name of the town, but a small town, you know, Western New York.

Springville, New York. Yeah. And, uh, and he was just a big dude, you know? I mean, he was, so he showed up on campus, and they were like, Hey, he started his first game, you know, and he didn't know what he was doing.

Uh, but he started just cause he was just, you know, pretty thick, you know, assorted guy, maybe not the tallest man in the world, but you know, big, thick dude. And so they, you become a lineman that way. Yeah.

I'm going to have to look it up. Cause I, you know, you may just make me think, I think Park H. Davis is in that same area. He's from Jamestown, New York, which is not too far.

I wonder if they ended up ever playing against each other. If they were in, maybe they weren't in the same years of, uh, playing high school. Yeah. I think Davis, well, Davis would have been at Princeton in the 1880s, right? In the early nineties.

Oh yeah. Maybe he's quite a bit older than Warner. Yeah.

Cause, you know, Warner showed up at Cornell at like 91, 92, something that range. Um, so I think, you know, Davis is just that much, um, just that much older. Cause he was, he was coaching Lafayette when, um, Fielding Yost, you know, was the ringer for him, you know, That's, that's true.

Yeah. He's probably 15 years older than Warner probably. Well, there goes that fantasy of seeing those two head-to-head.

I love the stories about, you know, guys who grew up in the same areas or, um, you know, even if it's cross sports, but you know, guys who knew one another or, you know, those kinds of stories and, you know, just the connections that you just normally don't think about. So it's just, it's kind of fun. So, you know, real, real fascinating, you know, from Cornell, the Carlisle, the Pitt, the Stanford, you know, Pop Warner was all across the country and had a lot of success everywhere he went and pretty interesting guy and pretty humble guy to sit there and pick out athletes and teach them how to play the game.

So I guess, uh, it's very aptly named the, uh, the junior football today. Most of them are called Pop Warner football. So very interesting.

Another great tidbit, Tim, we really appreciate that. And, uh, that you share these with us each and every day and the listeners, uh, you know, there's a way for you to, to pick up on Tim's Tidbits and get a copy of them sent to you too. And Tim will explain that to us right now.

Yeah. Uh, if you're, if you're interested, just go to footballarchaeology.com and, uh, down at the bottom of most of the pages, you know, just to, you can, um, click on it and subscribe. And if you subscribe, you're going to get an email every evening at seven o'clock and then a couple, a couple of others here and there.

Um, you know, basically, it's just whatever, whatever got published that day shows up in your inbox. And so you can read them at your leisure. Um, I also, uh, I'm still putting out everything I post on Twitter.

And so if that's your way of receiving, you know, various forms of news like this, then, um, you know, follow me on Twitter. But you know, the best thing is probably just to do them, to subscribe and make your life easier and more, much, much more pleasant. Yeah.

And it's a great site—footballarchaeology.com — and it's also a great conduit to some of Tim's books. He has his most recent one, how to hike with some football terminology, and one of my standbys, how football became football.

It's a great read, especially learning about early college football. I highly recommend both those books to anybody interested in football history because Tim does a great job on them. So, Hey, Tim, thanks a lot for joining us here again.

And, uh, and we'll talk to you again next Tuesday. Okay. Looking forward to it.

Thank you, Darin.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

The 1915 Brown Bruins were 4-2-1 coming off a victory over Yale, helping Yale earn its first losing season in the forty or so years football had been played, so the boys from Providence had reason to be optimistic heading into their game at Harvard the following week. Led by all-everything Fritz Pollard and future Hall of Fame coach Wallace Wade, the Bruins hoped to put a scare into the Bostonians, if not return home victorious. — www.footballarchaeology.com

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One of the top experts in early football rules history, Timothy P. Brown, joins us in the discussion to explain the 1915 season of Brown University. Timothy Brown's FootballArchaeology.com has a daily football factoid that he shares, which is quite interesting in a short read. They uniquely preserve football history, and we are quite happy that Tim has agreed to join us each week to review some of his Today's Tidbits. Click that link, and you can subscribe for free and receive them each evening.

This post originated from a Tidbit that Tim wrote back in 2022 titled A Bad Loss and a Bonus.


-[b]Transcription of the 1915 Brown University Football Team with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and it's Tuesday. And once again, we have some football archaeology with Timothy P. Brown, author and historian that has a great website of footballarchaeology.com. Tim Brown, welcome back to the Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Thank you for having me on again. As always, I am looking forward to chatting.

Yeah, this is a really interesting topic that we're going to talk about, the 1915 Brown Bruins, and have a very interesting story that you shared back on September 2nd, and really enjoying this one, and I think the listeners will as well.

Yeah, well, actually, you know, before chatting about that team, I think it was yesterday or the day before, an RPPC, so a real photo postcard of that 1915, of Brown's 1915 team, sold on eBay for $1,025. Wow. So, I mean, that's the, you know, it's not like I've tracked it, you know, over life, but that's, I think, the highest-priced postcard I've ever seen.

But, you know, it has Fritz Pollard on the team. So, a lot of times, especially older African Americans, you know, football stuff, you know, can command a pretty good, pretty good price. You know, it's an item that I don't think I've ever seen before until it was offered in that particular auction.

And then, you know, even for NFL people, you know, Fritz Pollard was the first African American coach in the NFL, you know, back in like 21 or, you know, something along those lines. So, you know, but just a couple of interests kind of collide, and all of a sudden, you're paying some pretty big money for a postcard. I mean, he was a tremendous player as well.

I mean, I think every team that he went to, he really brought their game up quite a bit to a different level. So, that's another reason to want to collect that, to have a legendary player. So.

Yeah. Well, you know, so the thing about that, you know, the 1915 team, you know, is that you know, Brown, I think, you know, by and large, has been kind of a second tier program, you know, and it was at the time. I mean, and I'm comparing that to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, and then, you know, probably like West Point.

Those were probably the premier, you know, year after year premier programs. But they had a long-term, you know, long-term coach at Brown, you know, during some of that period. And, you know, they have some pretty competitive teams.

And so, they actually, I think they ended up, they were, they surprisingly beat Yale that year, which they seldom did. But that was the Yale team, the 1915 Yale team. Frank Hinckley had come back to coach the team in 14.

And they kind of struggled. And then they were really struggling in 15. That was the year that the captain, Alex Wilson, fired the head coach.

So, he fired Hinckley. And he brought in Tom Shevlin to come in, you know, kind of fix things up for the last couple of games of the year. But, you know, part of his being fired was, Hinckley's being fired was that they lost to Brown.

So, you know, it was, I think that's the last instance I'm aware of where, you know, that was the last year Yale still had that, the captain runs the show, you know, kind of philosophy. But, you know, he literally fired the coach because his word was final. And then they, you know, they switched things up at, you know, the following year.

So, that was, you know, kind of an interesting element of it. And even, you know, to kind of the perspective of Percy Houghton, who was the coach at Harvard, didn't even go, or he wasn't there for the Harvard-Brown game because, you know, he thought it more important to go scout Yale, you know, and coaches used to do that sometimes. Stagg did that a few times, and you know, you read about it, and you know, here and there, people did that.

So, I mean, it just kind of tells you that it was a real upset, you know, that coach didn't even show up for the game. But that sounds, I mean, it sounds so strange, but I think you explained it the last time we had you on; we talked about the first coach and when the word coach was used, and it just recently aired as a podcast. And, you know, you usually explained to that, that the coaches really were important, not really as important at game time as the captains were, like they are today, you know.

So, it's. Yeah, the captains called the plays, there was no coaching from the sideline, all of that, you know. So, the practice week was done so he could go scout the teams, and the captain took over.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, to some extent, that, you know, that is the case. But then, you know, so the other thing that's just kind of interesting about that team and football in general at the time was Harvard, Yale, and Princeton had policies that they didn't go to bowl games, right?

And, you know, this was still, you know, they didn't have postseason games. And so, this is, you know, the Rose Bowl had a game back in 02, and then that was kind of forgotten. And then they restarted it in 1916.

So, they're inviting, you know, the best team they could get from the east that played in the 1915 season. But, you know, so Harvard, Yale, Princeton wouldn't go. And so, you know, Brown ended up being, you know, the best team that they could find, you know, who would say yes.

You know, and so then they did whatever the five-day, you know, train trip out to Pasadena. But, you know, there were, you know, the Big Ten didn't allow teams to play in postseason games. They did allow Ohio State to play in the Rose Bowl, I think in like 22, I think it was.

You know, and so just in general. And then even teams that did where the school or the faculty allowed it, you know, sometimes the kids just said, no, we're done. You know, they're just, they were just done with the season.

And, you know, they'd already turned in their equipment, whatever. They didn't want to spend time away from family for the holidays, you know, those kinds of things. So, I mean, it's just a different world.

You know, we'd know so many teams playing bowls, you know, to begin with, but it's just kind of the expectation of, you know, well, of course, you're going to go to the bowl. But back then, you know, a lot of times, you know, teams had the opportunity to go, but they turned them down. But so Brown ended up, you know, playing in the game, and then they lost to Washington State.

So, you know, that was kind of a, for the folks out West, that was a big deal is, you know, kind of a credibility boost that one of their teams could play and beat, you know, a team that's now, you know, of the Ivy caliber. So, you know, it's a big, you know, kind of a big deal, you know, for those folks. Yeah.

So, okay. So we already said that Fritz Pollard was on that team. Was there anybody else significant on that team besides Pollard? Yeah.

One of them, Wade, now I'm blanking on his name. Wade, Wade, Wade, Wade. He was a guard or tackle.

Wallace Wade, sorry. And so he was, he coached Alabama, took them, you know, to a couple of Rose Bowls. And then he, he was the coach at Duke for quite a while.

They played when Oregon State played the Rose Bowl at Duke because of the bombing of Pearl Harbor. You know, so the 42 Rose Bowl, Wade was still the coach there. So, but he, you know, he and Pollard were probably the most famous of the Brown players that year.

Very interesting. And, you know, some great, great research, and we appreciate you sharing these teams and some of these innovations from football from so long ago, your football archaeology site. I want you to share with people how they can, you can find your tidbits that you'd share with us each and every day and how they can subscribe to your website to make sure they know when that you've released them.

Sure. So, you know, my website is just, you know, footballarchaeology.com. You can also find me on Twitter under the same name. And, you know, the gist of it is I publish these, I publish a tidbit every day, comes out at seven o'clock Eastern time.

And so if you subscribe, you'll get that as an email newsletter. And then obviously, if you're, you know, you could also just visit the site anytime you want. And, you know, there's a full archive in there with, you know, now getting on, you know, 300, you know, some article, you know, fully long-form articles or tidbits, which tend to be more, you know, 30 seconds to a minute long reads.

Okay. Just little snippets. And I can tell you that it is exactly right at 7 pm.

It's very consistent because usually my family and I were watching a rerun of the Big Bang Theory. And the chime for my email signal, my notification comes right at the same time of the theme song for Big Bang Theory every time. So it's like part of the song to us now.

Well, it's just gets scheduled in the application. You could have just take more punctuality credit for than that. Well, you know, so I still have to manually do it on Twitter.

So, you know, but then it's going to be a 703, 705, somewhere in there. Yeah. Yeah.

We're well into the show by then. So. All right, Tim.

Well, thank you very much. And we'll talk to you again next week with some more great football archaeology. Cool.

We'll see you next week. Thanks.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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-Transcription of the 1905 Fairmont Experiment with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to Tuesday, Football Archaeology Day. As we go to FootballArchaeology.com's author, Timothy P. Brown.And Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Thank you.

Good to see you again. Looking forward to chatting. You have one of your most recent tidbits that you've dug up some real good football archaeology on this.

And just a great story from 1905 that I'd love to have you tell the audience about. Yeah. So, I mean, I think probably anybody that's listening knows that there were a lot of concerns, you know, leading up to and then in the 1905 season about injuries and deaths on the playing field.

And so, you know, there was just a lot of pressure to make some changes to the game. We had the whole Teddy Roosevelt thing. And then, you know, in the end, the guy who was the president or chancellor of NYU, he formed, he got people together to start really looking at this issue.

And, you know, so there were, the newspapers had all kinds of suggestions about possible rule changes. And, you know, there are people throwing out all kinds of ideas. And so, they kind of started talking about, you know, is there a way that we could experiment and have a test game? And, you know, there have been other times where that occurred.

Stag did some things, you know, this is about another five years down the road. And Hugo Bezdek, you know, did some testing. So, there are a couple of different instances of stuff like that.

But so, this one was, you know, while they were kind of looking for a game to be played, you know. Basically, the teams had disbanded for the year. But for some reason, the folks at Fairmont, which is now Wichita State, you know, in Wichita, they had been looking, you know, to maybe play a Christmas game just to kind of keep folks entertained and have some fun. And it turned out then that they agreed to play a test game against Washburn, which is a, you know, a state school in Kansas.

And so, you know, they were, and basically what they agreed to do was to try out some of the rules that were being proposed. And, you know, I don't know exactly how much interaction these guys had with folks back east, but the coaches of the two teams, Fairmont, were coached by a guy named Willis Bates, and Washburn was coached by John Outland. So, Bates had played at Dartmouth, and Outland had played at Penn, and, you know, he's the Outland trophy guy, right? So, so they were both, you know, they both had, you know, East Coast cred.

And the fact that they would play a game would be something that would be kind of, you know, trusted, you know, for want of a better term. So, and just one other odd thing about that year was that Fairmont, earlier in the year, had played a game at night. And it was played under, I think Coleman Lanterns is a local manufacturer somewhere in the Wichita area.

And so they lit, they had Coleman Gas Lanterns hanging all around the field and over the field. Maybe not, maybe not over the field. I think they had but it turned out to be kind of a mess because it just didn't put off enough light.

But anyway, it's just one of those early, early little factoids. Yeah. I never heard that before.

It's kind of interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, there were others that did electrical, you know, lighting before that, but they were the only ones I've ever heard of that tried to do, you know, gas lanterns. But we have the Zippo factories not too far from here. I wonder if they tried that bunch of Zippos lit up at the same time.

Or just have all the kids turn on their cell phones. So yeah. So anyway, they agreed to play a game on Christmas day.

And so they said, okay, we're going to allow the forward pass. We're going to require offenses to gain 10 yards rather than five and three downs. And then they also gave officials the authority to, you know, throw somebody out of the game if they, you know, for any kind of unnecessary roughness, which was, they didn't have that necessarily at the time.

So, you know, as it turned out, it turned into kind of a, the game was kind of a turd, frankly. It was like, it ended up in a zero, zero tie. Each of the teams threw some forward passes and completed two or three.

But we don't really know. I mean, all we really can operate off of these newspaper articles. So we don't really know how they threw the ball.

Right. And we just know they didn't do it very effectively. But the whole thing comes down to that they just couldn't imagine and think through how to change the game of football, how to approach it differently, given a new set of rules.

Right. And so it's just that idea that for us, we know the old spiral is to throw a football, but they didn't. You know, they tried all kinds of basketball and two-handed set shots.

They did shovel passes. They did, you know, you name it. You know, they tried, and they threw the football like a grenade, with a straight arm, you know.

And just if you think about it, how do you tell somebody to go out on a pass route when they've never seen a pass route before? Right. I mean, what do you do? You know, so these are the first guys trying to figure this stuff out. And they didn't do a very good job of it.

You know, and you can't really blame them. A lot of people struggled with it for about 10 years. You know, once the pass was legalized, there were some that got it, got after it right away, but most people didn't.

So, you know, and it turns out that, so one of their big conclusions was that, you know, because they really didn't adapt their offenses at all, they went from playing a game where they had three downs to getting five yards. Now, all of a sudden, they have three downs to get 10 yards. They didn't change their offense really.

So guess what? They didn't get many first-downs, right? And so they viewed that as a silly rule. Oh, it's never going to work. Well, it didn't work because they didn't reimagine the game.

And then, you know, find the tactics, find the techniques, you know, to do things differently. So anyways, I think it's really just the neatest part of the game in total is number one, that it failed, right? And that it, but it shows the difficulty of reimagining how to play this game under a new set of rules and why it took a while for that to occur. But, you know, they did their best.

They were willing to try it. And, you know, so, you know, good for them, right? Right. You know, I always found it kind of interesting, you know, hearing that story and, you know, the reason why they did it is to try to report back East to give them some information on, you know, it's an experimental game on some of these rules, but you never really see a whole lot, except for maybe years later, there was, I think one gentleman that was involved or was a spectator or something that had some information about it.

We don't know how accurate it was or anything, but there's nothing going back to, you know, to camp or to, you know, John C. Bell or any of those guys back East that tells what happened in this game, you know, what they tried. And I'm always surprised, maybe someday somebody will open up some notebook and, you know, in their great-grandparents' house or something and have some information. But I was finding that kind of fascinating.

Well, you know, you have to believe that there were at least personal letters exchanged. So, like, because, you know, both of these coaches were, you know, they were Eastern guys, you know, and they maintained their connections. So, there had to be something back and forth.

But yeah, I mean, as far as I know, I mean, there's no report to a committee and, you know, maybe it was because things were, there was so much turmoil at the time, you know, we'd had multiple rules committees in the late 1800s and now, you know, we're going between the IFA and, you know, whatever. And this whole thing that NYU is getting going will eventually become the NCAA. But yeah, you know, who knows? Yeah.

It's not like they picked up the telephone and called somebody very well. No, exactly. You know, and so, it had to be, you know, just the fact that they were even in touch.

Somehow, they got all this material. Now, the newspapers, you know, that was, you know, the wire services and that, that would have been one of the main ways for them to even learn what the potential rule changes are. But, you know, as this game got reported on, you know, if you look it up, I mean, you name it, any newspaper in the country, they did at least some kind of report on this test game.

So, you know, people were paying attention to it, but, you know, then it was forgotten pretty quickly. Right. So, it might be one of the original bowl games.

Of course, the Rose Bowl came out in 1902. So, I guess it wasn't the original holiday bowl game, but it was played right on Christmas day even, right? Yeah. Okay.

And so, one of the things that, you know, part of the reason I kind of, I did this particular tidbit was because I'd come across, you know, a real photo postcard of the 1906 Fairmont team, you know, online. I, you know, I ended up, you know, buying things because most people looked at it and said, I don't know who this is. Still, I knew who they were, you know, you know, so I basically was able to pick it up for a song, but, you know, and so, my best guess is, you know, that the vast majority of 1906 guys were on the 1905 team too. So, probably a number of the guys played in the game are in that picture, but, you know. Interesting.

I have a piece of history in my possession. Yeah. Well, that's a cool piece of history and, you know, we appreciate you sharing it with us each and every day on your tidbits.

And speaking of that, why don't you tell the listeners how they too can enjoy some of these great photographs and, you know, your website and where they can, you know, get a hold of the tidbits each and every day? Yeah. So, the site is, it's a sub-stack site, but I've got a, you know, personalized URL.

So, it's just footballarchaeology.com, and you can sign up there. If you sign up or subscribe, you'll get an email delivered to your inbox every night at seven o'clock Eastern, and then you can read it at your leisure. Yeah.

And so, you know, the only other thing I would just say is, you know, if you're, if you bookmark the site and you're trying to figure out something on football history, you know, there's got one of those little search magnifying glass things in there. So, put in a term, see if something pops up for you and there's probably a story or two in there. Yeah.

So, great stuff. All right. Well, appreciate you, Tim.

And we'll talk to you again next week. Darin, thank you very much. Look forward to it.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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The huddle, a ubiquitous feature of modern football, serves a crucial purpose: concealing play calls from the opposing team. But its origin story is far from today's high-tech headsets and complex plays. It's a tale of innovation born from necessity, showcasing the ingenuity of American football players in the early days.

Historian Timothy Brown of Football Archaeology and his recent post Gather 'Round, Boys: A History of Huddling.

Who invented the concept? When was the first huddle and what was the purpose? These answers and more are converted in the lively discussion with Tim.

Here is the Transcript of our conversation on the origin and history of the huddle

Darin Hayes
Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to another date with footballarcheology.com's Timothy P. Brown. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Timothy Brown
Hey, Darin, I look forward to chatting about huddling today.

Darin Hayes
Tim, you had a title out a little over a year ago called Gather Round Boys. One of your tidbits mentions a history of huddling. But we'd really like to hear the history of this application in football.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, you know, sometimes you look back, and I hadn't looked at this tidbit for a while. And I realized I liked this; it was one of my favorite tidbits. Part of it is that I like the stories where you figure out how something developed. And its function today is not what it served when it first came about. And so huddling is a classic example of that. The other is just that it was one of those tidbits where, while we can't get anybody to see the images that were in the tidbit or that are in the tidbit, I would encourage people to go out and take a look at it. Because, you know, it's just one where I found some great images of the different types of puddles. So, so huddling, you know, there's the first huddling that people have been able to identify was, you know, Gallaudet College in Washington, DC. It's a, you know, college for the people, you know, hearing, hearing impairments. And so, you know, they actually, they used to go up, you know, this is back in the time, the four teams huddled, they would come up to the line of scrimmage, and the quarterback or a captain, somebody on the team, would yell out signals. So, you know, you read all the time in the old newspapers about signals. And it was just, kind of like Audibles, but essentially, you know, what teams did is have a sequential list of numbers for all their plays. And, you know, whereas like, I know, you know, used to be like, if it ended in an even number, it was a play to the right, or if it was odd, it was a play to the left. And, you know, sometimes the first number told you, you know, a 42 meant that it was going to go to the left half back or the right half back or whatever, you know, different kinds of systems made sense. But early on, it was either just a random string of words or a sequence of numbers. So, if you were a player, you had to know what you did on an 83 because that's all you heard. Now, they would hide those numbers in the signaling'd like to do a string of four numbers. And one of them was a code saying the next number is the one that is the play. So anyway, that's kind of the way it worked. A couple of teams here and there huddled, but pretty much nobody huddled until Illinois, and Bob Zuppke changed that in 1921. And they began huddling. But back then, they didn't initially huddle. I mean, part of the purpose was, you know, Zuppke would claim part of it was to get everybody to settle down and be able to listen to the play. It was typically a quarterback then who would call the play. But it was mostly the advantage of huddling was, that was a period when, you know, you had the Minnesota shift, you had the Heisman shift, he had the Notre Dame shift. So teams would line up at the line, you know, one played in, they line up on the line of scrimmage. But often, they would line up in a, say, pre-lineup, like a traditional team. And then shift, there'd be a moment where they'd shift to unbalanced right or unbalanced left, whatever it was. And then they, you know, there wasn't. While the rule said everybody had to pause before starting the play, there was no length of time that they had to pause. So basically, teams would shift in, and boom, the ball would be snapped, and you'd catch the defense, you know, off guard. So Huddle, the Huddle did the same thing, they would call the play in the Huddle, you know, so let me go back, a team that was shifting would line up, call their play, and then at some point, they'd shift, and then execute the play. What huddling did was that they would call it play in the Huddle. And then everybody would quickly run the line of scrimmage, get lined up, and boom, the ball was snapped. So it had kind of the same advantage as that pre-snap shift. But it happened even faster, right? And you know, the defense couldn't react, you know, They couldn't shift anywhere near as quickly as the offense could line up. So that's when Huddling came about in 1921, and teams started applying it. A lot of people said we shouldn't have it; it delays the game, this, that, but ultimately, it proved effective. And so they started using it. And in about 26 or so, the implementer rule said you had to pause for at least one full second after the shift or after coming out of the Huddle. So then that kind of calmed things down a bit. But then, to me, one of the fun things and where these images come into play is that business that I could figure out. There were three or four different styles of huddling. So there were the first Huddles, almost all of what people called the closed, circular, ring, or oval Huddle. So that was where everybody formed the ring. Sometimes, the quarterback is kneeling down, kind of inside the ring. And the lineman tended to be in the front, closest to the, facing away from, but closest to the line of scrimmage; the ends were at either end of this little ring. And then the backs were on the other side facing towards the line. And so that was normal for a long time. That was the classic Huddle. Then people said, well, if we're going to do all this Huddling, we should devise a better way to Huddle. And so, as far as I can tell, Bucknell got it started in 33, but people like USC used it in World War II and da -da -da. And it was called either a V or a triangle Huddle. And so the way that worked was if you think of a V or a triangle, there's kind of like the fat end or the open end of a fat end of a triangle or open end of a V., And so what they do is it had the quarterback at the open end along with one other back. And then the rest of the folks would be in kind of in a V shape, typically facing toward the line of scrimmage with the quarterback on the back facing away from the line of scrimmage. And they could call the play. Most of the team could see the defense and what they were doing. And so that was kind of a cool way to do it. Then, the next one that came along, the late 40s, is the best I could tell. There's a guy named Tom Nugent who was a coach at VMI. Later, he became Lee Corso's coach in Miami. And so he had what was called either the open classroom or typewriter Huddle. And so that was one where, and it's very, teams still use this one, commonly today, quarterback faces away from the line of scrimmage. Sometimes, they turn it around, but he's facing away from the line of scrimmage. And then initially, they'd have the lineman facing the quarterback bent over, and then the backs and ends were facing towards the line of scrimmage standing up, right? That's where almost everybody stands now, but that's probably the most common Huddle today.

Darin Hayes
I see a lot of teams resurging. They're doing that, but the quarterback is standing behind the linemen who are facing the defense, which is kind of interesting—talking in the ear holes or something, I guess.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, in some way, it's always made more sense to have the quarterback facing the defense. He's the one who's calling the place, or he can potentially spot something. But, again, this all is based on the assumption that the quarterback is calling the place, as opposed to a coach on the sideline calling the place. And so all these huddling things were happening when quarterbacks called the place. And, you know, then those rules went away in the early 60s. So, coaching from the sideline, that whole thing disappeared in the early 60s. And so all of a sudden, some people like, you know, Sam, I believe it's white, or white, white, I don't even know how to pronounce his last name, white, white. So, you know, Bengals coach in the 80s. He's the guy who pioneered the no-huddle offense. It's just like, why do we have them huddle anymore? We'll just put them somewhere in the lawn of scrimmage and signal in the general formations that they can get the right spot, and then they can watch us watch our signal, the baseball-style signals from the sideline. And then they've used numbers, you know, all kinds of coaches assistance on the wrists and, you know, the different signage that teams hold up. So you got all that stuff going on, in terms of just ways to signal and plays, but it's a big difference from the days of quarterbacks calling the plays versus the coaches calling the place. So now, just one other thing that I just wanted to add that I mentioned in the tidbit, but I think this is going to make some of them are coaches listening to the podcast, some of them are going to be angered by what I'm about to say or just.

Darin Hayes
Wait a second. Is the coach getting angry?

Timothy Brown
Yeah.

Darin Hayes
This is the first I've heard of this.

Timothy Brown
Well, well, okay. And so one of the things that they used to get angry about, they used to spend all kinds of stupid practice time perfecting, was the Huddle. You know, coaches would go nuts about you having to stand up the right way or you have to snap out of the Huddle. I know, you know, at least in my high school conference, I remember there was a team that when they left the Huddle, the linemen so that they would huddle so like the correct tackle was on the left side of the Huddle and then he would lead people out and as the right card would be next to him. And then so they had this like chain thing where they came out in formation, and it was just a wasted damn time. And so coaches used to spend unnecessary time trying to get a nice neat huddle. It was like making sure your socks are pulled up or make, you know, whatever, you know, it's just like either you can either you make the play, or you don't, either you follow the play call, or you don't execute your assignment, or you don't, I don't care what you look like. Thankfully, like my high school coach was a guy who was, in many ways, a crusty old dude. But he was; he didn't care what color you were, what your background was, what you wore; he just either ran fast, you didn't jump far, or you didn't. And you either made the tackle, or you didn't. So he didn't, you know, concern himself much with what I consider the stupid stuff that many coaches hang on to.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, we, I had a coach; I think it must've been grade school. He was very anal. We were the old, you know, the quarterback would, he, after you get done calling a plate, say, you know, ready. And we'd all go break and have to clap, you know, and break the Huddle that way. And I think, which I think a lot of teams still do. And, uh, if we didn't all clap or he couldn't hear us, like if you're in practice, he stands behind the Huddle and doesn't hear you say break. Oh my God, you, it was an ass-chewing coming from probably some laps being run. So they're anal.

Timothy Brown
I mean, I get, you know, being anal, but that's just being anal about the wrong thing as far as I'm concerned, but

Darin Hayes
Especially when you're in the fourth quarter in a game in August, when it's like 85 degrees, and the last thing you want to do is be yelling, break, and clap, and you wish to, you know, try to get through the rest of this game. Cause you're, you're sweating bullets, and you know, you're tired.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, well, again, at least any negative comments about this will come to you, not because it's on your podcast, not because it's on my site.

Darin Hayes
That's true. So, you know, I've got a couple of interesting comments from some guests that I've had over the years, some claims, you know, you're talking, you know, 1921 with the, you know, this being formalized by Zupke, which is like a few years before Red Green Shop played with Illinois, interesting enough. But we have an author, Jennifer Taylor Hall, who wrote a book on Amos Alonzo's Stag, and she has some claims in her book that give credit to Stag possibly being one of the innovators of the Huddle, using it here and there, not as a formal, you know, every play type of thing. When I just heard recently we had an author, Sam Hatcher, who wrote the book Iceman's First Trophy; it was about the Cumberland Georgia Tech debacle, the 22 and 22 to nothing game, where the Cumberland players didn't want to go up to the line any faster than they had to, so they were sort of hanging back and, you know, catching their breath, licking their wounds, whatever you want to call it, before going up. So he gave some nods to that; I just wanted to mention some of those things, but, as I said, they were not formalized huddles like you're talking about that happened in the 20s.

Timothy Brown
You know, so this is like almost anything else. Amos Lanza Sttag was an absolute coaching pioneer and stud who invented many things. He also gets credit for about 75 things that he should have done. Right? I've done enough research on this stuff, and I'm confident that Subkey is the first one who used it regularly. I know there was a guy named Hargis. I think I have it. Well, anyway, he was a coach at Oregon State. He was a guy from Emporia or one of those schools in Kansas. He ended up at Oregon State in 1919. And, the evidence is he used a huddle in at least one game. There's something unique about about that. So yeah, there were some people who periodically or once or whatever used it, but in terms of using a systematic game after game, using play after play. As far as I know, no one has any evidence of anybody other than Zuppke being the first to do that. So if somebody else has more information, get a hold of me on football archaeology comm, and I will be happy to add a postscript.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I wasn't saying they were arguing with what you're saying. I was just, cause the, the Huddle has had a bit of history, whether, you know, I, I don't have it confirmed or not, but I'm just saying they, they made mention of it in their writing. So it's just,

Timothy Brown
And yeah, there are all kinds of things like that, like who the first face mask was. What was the first face mask? Okay, define face mask, right? What is a face mask? What's the difference between the old nose guards, some of which became pretty huge, and a face mask, you know, or like, so what's a huddle? What does it mean to huddle? Right, so depending on how you define that, you might go, you know, in a different direction. I'm using huddling the way we use it today.

Darin Hayes
Call it calling the play. You have a gathering to call it the play. Here's what, yeah, okay. Well, very, very good, enjoyable as always, Tim. We appreciate it. No, you have a lot of fascinating tidbits and pieces of information that are Built on what we know of as football today and some of the elements of it in foot-on football archaeology. You could share with the listeners how they can find your site and what to expect.

Timothy Brown
Yeah, go to footballarchaeology .com. It's a Substack site or newsletter. You can go there any time you want. But also, you can subscribe. You'll get an email every time that I open or that I create a new story. There's a paid version. There's an unpaid version. You can also follow me on Twitter, threads, or the Substack app. And if you're somebody like this, you can follow them on the Substack app. And if you want to follow but have yet to get the emails, well, you'll get it that way by a Substack. So, whatever suits your fancy works for you.

Darin Hayes
All right, well, that's very good. As always, this is a fascinating topic, and we really appreciate you coming on here and sharing with us. We'd love to talk to you again next week.

Timothy Brown
Very good. I look forward to seeing you.

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Join us as we delve into the fascinating tradition of handing out game balls in Gridiron football. We'll explore its origins, how it's evolved over time, and why it's become such a coveted symbol of victory. From legendary quarterbacks to surprise heroes, this video will uncover the stories behind the pigskin. So, buckle up and get ready to learn the history behind the iconic game ball!

Football Archaeology.com's Timothy Brown explains as he tells us about one of his recent Tidbits titled: A History of Game Balls

Here is a full transcript of the conversation with Tim Brown

Darin Hayes
It is Tuesday and football archaeology is on my mind. And we have the founder of that great website, Timothy P. Brown with us. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Timothy Brown
Hey, Darin, this should be an awarding podcast to participate in.

Darin Hayes
An awarding podcast? You're, segueing into our subject nicely, I think. And we're going to find out a little bit more of that. Your title of your tidbit that you had just a few months ago, or maybe a few weeks ago, is a history of game balls and a pretty broad topic. But it sounds like you have some direction for us on that.

Timothy Brown
Yeah. Well, so I took a very narrow view in this case of game, game balls, you know, more in terms of the awarding of the game ball, you know, the, the game ball being, you know, trophy value, you know, kind of a game ball. But, you know, I kind of started that article talking about, you know, for an NFL game, at least nowadays, there are 36 balls prepared to be part of the game. So 12 submitted from each team. And then I think each team also submits six kicking balls. Right. And so, or no, no, I'm sorry. The kicking balls come directly from Wilson because the league, you know, too many people are manipulating the kicking balls. And so they, they get those directly from the league. The teams do get a chance to like massage them and whatever beforehand. And if Tom Brady's playing, then four of them have to be at eight pounds. That's right. Well, so, you know, the inflate gate thing is a whole other story. Um, but so, but the game ball, one of the, one of the coolest things about, I published that article on March 29th. And since then, I have uncovered a whole other slew of information that tells me that I was wrong, or at least, you know, that I didn't find as early information as I thought I had. So at the time, I was saying, look, you know, that game balls, you know, that whole awarding of game balls at the time that I wrote it, as far as I could trace it back to was like 1882. No, 1886. When, you know, just, it was mentioned in an article about a Princeton commencement, you know, ceremony. And they were mentioning that the game ball from the game that they had played when they had beaten Yale was on the, like, the rostrum or whatever, you know, for the commencement. So it kind of tells you how important, you know, what the football game was to those guys. But so, you know, through, because of another path of research that I'm doing, I was trying to, trying to dig into, you know, what all is, you know, what all is going on, or, you know, kind of the background of game balls. And, and, and part of it was that, you know, for, for a long time, like from when American football began, and, you know, to my liking, it began in 1876 with the IFA, you know, the funding of the IFA, when, when American football first got started, they only used one ball per game. You know, that was it, you know, rain, shine, snow, sleet, whatever, they played with one ball. And those balls weren't anywhere near as, you know, the leather wasn't as well protected, etc, as, as they are now. So, you know, these balls get water logged. And in the days of drop kicking, you know, you drop it on the ground, and thing was barely bounced off, you know, so, but then as a forward pass came in, you know, into favor, then in 1917, they allowed the referee to decide on a wet day, if he would allow a second ball to be used for the second half. And then eventually, you know, things spread. But you know, so there was this whole thing of, you know, you played with one ball. And so then, this whole tradition developed around awarding or presenting the game ball to the victor. So, you know, back in the day, the home team provided the ball. And then, if they lost, you know, the right thing to do was to award the ball to the visiting victorious team, for them to then go home, go back and paint the score on it, or whatever, put in the trophy case, whatever they were going to do with it. And so, so that was the tradition, you know, for some time. And So then, you know, since then, I found out a couple of new things. So one was that I, you know, recently acquired a copy of a book called The Gilbert Story, which is a story of the Gilbert Firm, which is one of the two main oblors and rugby ball makers in Rugby England, where the primary provider of rugby football, you know, rugby balls for like the World Cup and, you know, those kinds of things. So anyways, I got a, you know, copy of their ball, and it goes back through the history. And they talk about at the rugby school, there was a tradition of having two balls available for each game, and they got switched at half. But then I got ahold of Tony Collins, who, you know, has been on this podcast. And if anybody hasn't heard that one, that is you know, a fabulous podcast to listen to, because of Tony. But in any event, and he, you know, he basically confirmed that, you know, that that rugby never really had the tradition of multiple game balls. So it was a rugby school thing, but it didn't spread to rugby more generally. You know, they didn't really have a one ball or two balls, they didn't really have a standard. So somehow in the Americas, this one ball tradition came about. And then it turns out that there was an earlier awarding of a game ball came about when, you know, I think most people are aware that Harvard played McGill in 1874 in a rugby match. And that is really what led to Harvard playing rugby, and which is what led to American football developing from rugby. Well, in 1875, maybe the second and 1876, there was an all Canada team that played three games against Harvard. And in one of those games, all Canada, they lost all three, all Canada lost all three to Harvard. In at least one of those games, they awarded the ball to Harvard. So that then becomes at least best as I can tell, so far, the first awarding of a game ball in at least the football tradition. But the fun thing about that is that, you know, there just weren't a lot of rugby balls paying around the US, because people weren't playing it. But you know, they were starting to make that transition. So, you know, the IFA meets in November 1876, and they agree to play rugby instead of, you know, whatever soccer and other games they're playing. And, and so the, the weekend after that meeting, Princeton was the home. team for a game against Yale, but they didn't have a rugby ball, and yet they were supposed to play under rugby rules. So somewhere in that whole process, Harvard gave Princeton this ball that all Canada had given them, and then Princeton loses, so they give the ball to Yale, and that ball now sits in a trophy case at Yale in their gymnasium. So, you know, it's just kind of cool that it's literally probably the first game played under the IFA rules, IFA rugby rules. So in my mind, it's the first real football game, and yet that ball is still around sitting in a trophy case at Yale, because it was the game ball. You know, so I just think it's just kind of a cool... you know, kind of the way this whole story ends up that the game ball tradition preceded American football, you know, because the Canadians are the ones that, you know, gave it to the, you know, started it as far as we're concerned. And, and that and yet that first ball is still around sitting in a trophy case at Yale. I just think that's, for me, there's something magical about that. You know, now that you say that you make something a tour of, I took a veil probably about 10 years ago, makes some sense because I got the had the opportunity to with my wife's cousin was assistant coach at Yale.

Darin Hayes
And I got to got to tour the Yale Bowl and the locker rooms and just see all the tradition and, you know, the Walter camp, sort of, I guess not really, it's a monument, I guess, it's what looks more like a facade to the White House from the White House. But I got to see that. But we also got to go through the gymnasium you're talking about with all the the halls of trophy. And it's a very great place. And I there's one ball that really stood out that just didn't look like a football at all. And very tattered old, you can tell. And I wish now I wish I would have took a photograph of it because that's probably that ball that you're talking about. Yeah, so I mean, let me describe the ball to you.

Timothy Brown
I've not seen it myself, but you know, I've images of it. So it's it is a classic melon ball. I mean, it is almost round. And there's a big silver plaque embedded into the ball now, with, you know, what basically tells the story of, hey, this is awarded by the all Canada team, we gave, you know, it went from Harvard to Princeton, Princeton, Yale, and now it sits here. So it's there's, I think, I think I put the link in, you know, I've added a postscript to the story on the website. And I think I think I have a link to it. Cause I found it on a site called, is it College Antiques? But anyways, there's a, another guy kind of lays, went through this whole thing, which is where I kind of picked up on this story. And then I found other stuff on it. But anyways, I think it's just a cool, yeah, a cool story. And to my knowledge, the oldest, the oldest existing ball in, in American football. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's an awesome story. And I didn't realize, you know, it went back that far of exchanging that game ball. Now, wasn't there sort of a, in that era and all the way up into the, maybe early 20th century, where teams didn't have but one ball? Cause I can, I could recollect there's a story, I think of the big game, Stanford and Cal, like a 1901 or 1902 game, where they forgot to bring that one ball to the game. The home team, the visiting team didn't even bring a game ball. It was the only, the home team had that one game ball. Yeah, you know, and I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember the story. And I think you're right about, you know, Cal Stanford. And so it was one of those things where like they they sent people into town to go get one, you know, and they couldn't find one. And the same thing happened with when McGill visited Harvard in 1874. They didn't bring a rugby ball. I guess they thought, you know, Harvard would have one, but they didn't. Harvard just had a round ball, so they played. They played the first game under Boston rules, which is somewhat rugby ish, because you could carry the ball. And then they played the second game under rugby rules, but they used a round ball. So. Yeah, and there's a whole other thread that I'm working on about. There was a thing called the American ball, which best as I can tell, is actually developed by Charles Goodyear. He probably built created the first one because he created vulcanized rubber. It was like a canvas ball that was kind of covered with vulcanized rubber can canvas ball that was inflated. I don't think it had a separate bladder. But so a lot of the round balls that people used in America in the 1860s and 70s were these American balls. So it may be even that the Harvard Princeton or the Harvard McGill game, they could have played with an American ball or and then also even like the Princeton Rutgers game or games in 1869. Those were played with a round ball. It could have been an American ball. And that's that's what everybody called the American ball. As compared to an association or soccer ball or a rugby ball. No, no, that that ball that Charles Goodyear invented. Was it the color of a black, you know, I've seen descriptions of it being red and then and also black. So could I sit there and I know I have an old book on Walter camp and it starts off as him as a boy playing, you know, he had a black rubber ball that he just kicked around the yard and, you know, kicked over his mother's clothes line into the clothes and everything. And that's how he, you know, trained to get become a football player eventually. And I wonder if maybe that was one of those Charles Goodyear balls, because that would have been right around the time frame. I think his rubber was in the late 1830s. So probably, I think 40s and 50s is probably the ball. His stuff, maybe a little bit later than that. But anyways, yeah, I think so. Basically, if it was leather covered, it is probably an association sort of ball. But even their balls were like, you know, it wasn't real. you know, they didn't agree on a certain ball until 1872. So, you know, things are kind of, you know, it's kind of whatever you could get your hands on, frankly, you know, back in the day. And they had all kinds of different sizes, you know, I mean, rugby, American in and association balls all came in like multiple sizes in like three inch increments. And so like, size number five had a 27 inch circumference. And so if you think about one of the most popular balls in American football has been that the J5V or and proceeding that was a J5. Well, that J was the model, the Spalding model was a J. And before that it was a lily white rugby ball from England called a J. And the number five was the 27 inch circumference. So that J5 name goes all the way back to the beginning. Okay. So as you said, the number five, I was going to ask you if it will respond to the J5. So I'm glad you cleared that up. Yeah, yeah. So the letter was the model. And the number was the size because they were selling size two, size three, size four, five, and six. So like a 33 inch, 30 and 33 inch balls were, you know, whatever. And I know they don't do footballs anymore size and I was like junior and whatever pro and whatever, you know, an FHS, but soccer balls still have their sizes on them. I know you have like my daughter when she was playing, used a four. And then I think the pros in high school and colleges are number five. So well, so it's the same. It's the same sequence. And, you know, there's still junior footballs because, you know, my kids played with them, but I don't remember it being, you know, a number based system for identifying them.

Darin Hayes
I think they just called it a junior, but, you know, whatever. Yeah, maybe they still use a numbering system. And I have a junior ball right here and I don't see a number on it I have a Wilson TD and I don't see a number on it. So it's just the Wilson TD Junior Yeah, so I mean, it's just one of those cool cool things about the old balls that you know Here's something that carried out from literally from the beginning that we see every day and never think about Oh, I they call it a J5. Well, that's why you know, yeah fascinating Great stuff The Tim you have great stuff like this, you know a lot on your website and your posts And maybe you could introduce the listeners who haven't heard or read your before How they can you take part in what you're writing?

Timothy Brown
yeah, so best thing to do is just go to Football Archaeology.com and You know find the site just subscribe you can subscribe for free You can there's a paid version as well. You can also follow me on Twitter And on threads and on the substack app. So, you know, you can find me on any of those four methods or just Go out and search the site whenever you want to

Darin Hayes
Great stuff as always we really appreciate it and it's really enlightening About the the ball, you know and some of the history of it and we really thank you for that and Love to talk to you again next week about some more great football history

Timothy Brown
Very good. Look forward to it. Thanks