The University of Southern California has had some really exciting eras of football history, and one of them, the most recent, is the Pete Carroll era. We're going to talk about how the ups and downs of that era and some history before that with our special guest today. Coming up.

Hello, my football friends. This is Darren Hayes of pigskindispatch.com welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history.

And we are in for a special treat. We're going to talk about football out on the west coast tonight with a Times News award winning author, Monty Burke.

And his latest book is out Men of Troy the Epic Afternoons, Wild Nights and Enduring Legacy of Pete Carroll's USC Trojans. Monty Burke, welcome to the Pig Pen.

Hey, thanks, thanks for having me here.

Yeah. Monty, this is a book. I just got done reading this and What a book.

I mean, not only are you telling the story of Pete Carroll at ufc, just like the title reads, but the history that you're going into, which, you know, us here at Pixkin Dispatch and our fans, you know, that's what we really get into it. And you cover both. And it was really, really great book.

I love, I mean, I did that sort of selfishly because I loved researching all this stuff. I like to know, like, you know, how college football started, where the first games were.

It, it's funny because it had kind of a manifest destiny, sort of like the country did, right?

It kind of like started in the northeast and went a little south and then it went west and you know, the anchor school out there was and always has been usc. So I love kind of tracing it up to like, you know, how does USC get a football team?

When does Notre Dame go out there for the first time, you know, who founded the college of usc, you know, how they get the mascot name, all that kind of stuff. So it was so fun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I did not know that story, how they became the Trojans. But yeah, that, that was a great, great piece you had in there.

But you, you got me right from the drop.

You know, your introduction, you know, I, I always say, you know, a great piece of art is, you know, something that stokes emotion, whether it be music or a painting or sculpture or literary.

I love that. I love that lead.

I knew I was going to probably have to lead with that game since it's sort of the, you know, some people consider the greatest title game ever played. You know, it was. USC was pretty much six inches away from winning three national titles in a row.

So, you know, if, if Lindell White had converted, converted in fourth down, so they were like that far away from immortality. So I, I sort of figured, you know, I need to start there and then I'll go back and trace some more history.

But that the actual sort of lead, what Carol and I won't spoil it here, but what Carol kind of says at the, at the bottom of the first part of the lead there just kind of plopped in my lap, you know, I mean, that's when you interview. I interviewed a ton and ton, a ton of different players.

You know, I wasn't necessarily asking this guy like what Carol said or whatever, but he just kind of like in the course of our two hour interview, he just was like, oh. And I went over on the sidelines and he said, so anyway, I love that to me, leads in movies or books or even music, like, you got to love it.

You got to get hooked right from the beginning.

And then, and then you want to make people keep turning the pages, but, you know, if you don't get them in the first 20 pages or something like that, you're. You could be in trouble.

Yeah, most definitely. But you, you definitely did that put a check mark there. You definitely did that for this. Definitely. Yeah.

So, but, you know, so we, we know of Pete Carroll, you know, until recently, you know, his time with the Raiders, not, not so good. You know, just recently was fired with them after one year.

But he had sort of an auspicious start before he had greatness with USC and later on the NFL. Maybe you could just go over that a little bit and how you lead in.

So he's such an interesting guy. I mean, I wrote another book about Nick Saban. And what was interesting about this book is because Pete is.

Pete's pretty much the polar opposite in philosophy. So he's a kid who grows up in the Bay Area, San Francisco. He's very influenced by the Summer of Love.

You know, he studies psychology, kind of gets into Far Eastern mysticism and all this sort of stuff. And very early on he decides he's going to be a players coach, which, you know, at the time in particular was an incredibly derogatory term.

He was a defensive genius. A lot like Nick Saban, actually, in that they both were undersized safeties in college who wanted to play pros but didn't make it.

So he kind of channeled all that energy into coaching. Defensive genius, has a couple defensive coordinator jobs, gets to the jets coaches there for one year. It's a disaster.

You know, the first thing at the first press conference, he says, you know, there'll be no rules. And the jets owner, one of my favorite scenes in the book.

Jets owner sitting there with his arms crossed, and he kind of rolls his eyes like, what the. What the heck have I gotten into here? So go 6 and 10 that year. Gets fired after a year, takes a couple years out with the 49ers as the.

As the defensive coordinator, then gets hired by the Patriots, lasts there for three years. Every year, the record kind of declines again. His problem was, you know, he. He had this. He had a good idea for being an unorthodox, Unorthodox coach.

Like, you know, have some psychology involved. Most of all, have it be fun. That was his kind of thing. He thought that, you know, if it was fun, that you get your peak performance out of everybody.

They get creative and they get, you know, you get their peak performance, basically. So what he didn't have was any kind of discipline and rules all around that. So that's why he failed as an NFL coach.

He was so kind of off the radar that he had to spend an entire year out of football because no one hired him. And so, you know, here he is, this guy, fired twice a year out of football, probably down to his last strike.

If you get fired three times within a short, you know, window there, your days as a head coach are probably over. You're a coordinator for life. So, you know, here he is.

And usc, on the other hand, is this storied program, which is, in reality, gone through at this point about two decades of just not being relevant nationally. Just not a good team.

That.

And, you know, they offered the job to 1, 2, 3, maybe even 4 people before they got to Carol, depending on how you talk to. So finally get a guy because no one else wants the job, and then he gets hired there. And people just go berserk.

The alums, the boosters, the administrators, the fans, the LA media, they just go, like, why did we hire this guy? He's been fired twice. He hasn't been in College for 15 years. All this kind of stuff.

So rough beginning there, then has a really rough start to his first year, goes one and four. And, you know, I Mean, people are ready to rip everybody's head off and then it just turns around.

You know, he, he, he, that style, that unorthodox style. He had really worked with college kids. It was a great place to test it. You know, these are impressionable younger kids.

They are at that point were a captive audience for three or four years. They're not that anymore, but they were then. And he really turned it around. I mean, it helped.

He had some good building blocks there with Carson Palmer and Troy Palamalu, but guys graduated. And here we have Matt Leiner and Reggie Bush and Lindell White and two championships in a row.

And then like I said that, you know, literally six inches away from, from icing that game to go three in a row, three titles in a row, which no one's ever done in the modern era. And just created this, this incredible vibe out there too.

I mean, it was like there were no NFL teams then in, in la and you know, LA folks, business people and celebrities that love winners. USC started winning. The next thing you know, all these celebrities are flocking there. Carol, unlike other coaches, had totally open practices.

He didn't care who came. You could have a scout from other team, he didn't care.

But you know, all of a sudden at games you'd have Arnold and Will Ferrell and Snoop Dogg and the Fonz and stuff like that. But also they came to practices as well.

So it was like this, this, this crazy, unique time that had never happened before and I'm pretty sure it's never going to happen again because the NCAA shut it down so hard. But it was like. So to me, that was what was super intriguing about, about writing this book.

Yeah, it's kind of interesting that he rose so quickly. You know, this is a time of like stoic coaches having success like, you know, Trestle and, and Sabin.

And then you got Pete Carroll come in this failure in the NFL and comes in and just, you know, blows it up and really takes over the NCAA by, by command. You know, almost the three peat.

You know, they captured the, you know, not only the city of Los Angeles, but they kind of hijacked the sport there for a little while. I mean, they were it, you know, and what was cool too is he sort of reestablished to me, sort of reestablished the PAC12.

I mean, when I was those years before that, I remember watching, you know, you Click on the Pack 12 game at 11 o' clock at night here on the east coast and you were guaranteed to have fun because there was no defense right it was just guys slinging it all over the place. It was really fun. So he brought this sort of, you know, not only was he this great recruiter, he was a naturally a good recruiter.

But once the star show started showing up, like, you know, I talked to a couple guys who were in high school and they'd like, yeah, I visited and I met Snoop and I was like, I was going to usc, right? So he recruited really well too, but he brought this kind of defense. I mean, they had some great defense.

We forget, you know, they had one team where they had Cushing, Brian Cushing and Clay Matthews III on, on the same team in the linebacking corps. I mean, they had some pretty incredible defenses. So in a way, USC was kind of the rising tide that lifted all boats.

You know, I mean, the PAC 12 had to, once he whipped their butts for four or five years, these, the other schools kind of, you know, got their act together and you know, Stanford hired Jim Harbaugh, Oregon got it going with, with Chip Kelly. I mean, he really, it really rose the whole level of the PAC 12.

And then I felt, I feel like when the sanctions hit, which usc, by the way, has not recovered from still. We're almost 20 years out now and they're still not really now. I mean, they had a decent year last year.

Maybe they're on the cusp of doing something, I don't know. But they haven't been nationally relevant really since then. You know, when that Tide went out and USC sunk, they were the anchor program out there.

Right. And so the whole conference suffered.

And to a certain degree, I think you can, like there's a thin thread needle there where you can look at the demise of USC and how it's connected to the device of the PAC 12.

Yeah, I, I loved how you alluded to that throughout the book of, you know, it rising up and then it, when that ship sinks, the, the whole PAC12 started sinking.

So a very, very interesting parallel you had there, but you go into some detail of some, some football history that's more of a modern time, you know, including the gentleman end up hiring Pete Carroll, who was a USC star himself. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, so that was Mike Garrett, who was USC's first Heisman winner. He was a real hero back in the 60s.

He was this hard nosed, you know, he's one of those running backs, you don't see him quite as much these days, but one of those running backs back in the day who seemed to relish Contact. Like, you know, there'd be a guy in front of him, he could run around him, but he decided to run the guy over anyway.

So he was kind of like this hard nosed, straightforward kind of guy. And he'd been at usc. He inherited John Robinson, who, of course was a famous USC coach.

But this was John Robinson's second stint, which seemed to me to never work. I mean, I remember when Joe Gibbs went back to what was then called the Washington Redskins, and you just knew it was going to be a fiasco.

And it turned out to be a fiasco. So he inherits, Robinson has to fire him. Doesn't do it very politely. He does it over the phone answering machine, I believe.

And then he hires this guy named Paul Hackett, who. Who is Nathaniel Hackett's father, you know, was supposed to be this NFL offensive genius.

And he's just, you know, he's not a total disaster, but it's. It's like a lot of mediocrity. A lot of like six and six seasons. So what's interesting is that Garrett is kind of down to his third strike, too.

He's just like his coach that he's hired. And I love talking to Garrett because now he's all like, oh, yeah, no, I knew Pete was the guy, and I knew. I knew from the beginning he was the guy.

And it's like, really, man, I didn't. I don't know about that. The other people dispute that notion. But. But it was. He. He's kind of an interesting character. Carroll.

You know, one of the central questions, at least in the early part of the book, is is, you know, did USC save Pete Carroll or did Pete Carroll save usc? And it's a.

It's a really interesting question because, you know, his philosophy, he figured out how to make it work, that unorthodox thing, and then he took it to the NFL and it worked there for a little while.

You know, worked there pretty much until the last, like, two years of the Seahawks, and obviously didn't work there last year with the Raiders, but it worked very, very well for 12 seasons, you know.

Yeah, most definitely.

It seems like Coach Carroll and I didn't really realize this, the amount of coaching, assistant coaching power that he ended up putting on his staff almost immediately. Maybe you could talk about some of these names, because these guys are really important to success.

I mean, so what's interesting, too. So he comes into USC and he knows he has to win. He knows that this is his third strike.

If he gets fired, he's like I said, a Coordinator for life, which he definitely didn't want to be. His mentor was Monty Kiffin, Lane Kiffin's father, who was a head coach for about three years and then was a coordinator for life.

So he'd seen what that's, what that's like. He liked to be the head guy.

So he comes in and what's really interesting about his first staff is he puts his ego completely aside and says, I'm going to hire the best guys out there. So he hires a bunch of, you know, some NFL guys, some guys with some college ties.

He brings in Norm Chow, who's the name, maybe some of your listeners know. But Norm was the longtime offensive coordinator at BYU, and he had tutored Jim McMahon and Steve Young and Ty Detmer.

You know, he had a couple Heisman winners under his belt.

So he was this sort of offensive genius who had done all of this with, like, not necessarily byu, never really had the most skilled players, but he designed this incredible offense where, you know, I think one season, Steve Young might have averaged 350 or 400 yards a game passing, like, some insane stats, right? So then he keeps Ed Orgeron from the old staffs. Only person he really keeps.

And that guy is, I think, probably the best defensive line coach in college football history. I mean, he coached Warren Sapp Russell, MD, you know, just to name a few.

And he's, he becomes the kind of enforcer of the staff, which is very important.

And then, interestingly, he hires these two young bucks, you know, guys kind of out of nowhere, a little bit, who aren't much older than the players they're coaching. And one of them is kind of a Nepo hire. So he hires Lane Kiffin because Monty Kiffin was his mentor.

He used to babysit Lane Kiffin when Lane Kiffin was. Pete used to babysit Lane Kiffin when he was a toddler for the Kiffins.

And then he hires this other guy named Steve Sarkeesian, who you might have heard of.

So you got these two young, brash guys who, you know, have a lot to kind of learn in terms of, you know, management and, you know, not being too crazy. But they are immediately identified as offensive geniuses. I mean, they're just, just kind of know the game.

And it's fascinating to me, actually, when I was interviewing Lane, he pointed out I, I, he put this together, not me, but his three biggest mentors in his life. So Lane Kiffin is known as an offensive genius, right? But his three biggest mentors in his life are his father, who invented the Tampa 2 defense.

One of the most famous defensive coordinators in NFL history, Nick Saban, of course, a man known for his defense, and Pete Carroll, another defensive guy. Pete Carroll was the defensive coordinator at USC for all but the last two years, basically.

So it's just so interesting that a guy like Lane would be made out of these three mentors who were all defensive guys, you know, but he. Lane would point.

He pointed out, he said, you know, if you looked at Pete, you know, what he did and looked, the way that he acted and how creative he was, how energetic he was, how many ideas were flying out of his head, you'd think he was an offensive coordinator, not a defensive coordinator. Those guys tend to be kind of stern, like. Like Saban and, you know, not. They don't talk very much. So it's fascinating stuff. Great staff.

Yeah, yeah, excellent. And Sarcasian, he played for Under Chow, right? Who's Chow? Was his coordinator. One of those.

You know, I didn't realize this until going in there, but the. The JUCO thing in California, I don't know if it's still like this. I don't think it's still like this.

But that used to be, like, a real breeding ground for great players. I mean, so many great players came from Junior.

They go play somewhere for two years, get their grades up or whatever, and then they transfer into UCLA or usc. And Sarkeesian was, like. Was one of those guys. He transferred to BYU from El Camino Community College. And Sark had this. Sark stats were insane.

It was like 49 TDs and four interceptions. You know, he was just an insane player and then was pretty much out of football.

He was, like, selling, like, you know, modular computer chairs, basically, you know, chairs for working and, you know, just. And then Norm kind of plucked him out of that, helped Pete identify him, and they plucked him out, and, you know, the rest is history.

I mean, those two guys, they've been. Both of those guys have been through a lot of bumps and bruises. It's taken a long time to get where they are, but, you know, they. They.

They are, you know, two of the best coaches in college football right now.

Yeah, I. I loved how you sort of told how their personalities were, you know, almost polar opposites. And, you know, I know a little bit about, you know, Pete Carroll because I listen to, you know, Sirius radio, and he's good friends with Pat Kerwin.

Kerwin has him on every week. And, you know, he could be, you know, like, this year, he had a terrible season going on, but the dude is so high energy coming on and.

And talking after. You're just getting shellack the. You know, a couple days earlier. And Norm Chow, the way you described him, you know, how did this work out?

Almost like an odd couple type.

Yeah, totally. I mean, so everybody else, you know, Pete wanted energy out of all of his assistants, just like he wanted out of his players. He actually.

They took away sprinting in the. You know, they didn't do the gassers at the end of practice because he wanted people instead.

He wanted people to get their sprints in while they were sprinting from station to station during the practice. Genius stuff. He was always moving, like this totally kinetic guy. He insisted that all of his assistants work out in the morning so they can eat well.

He bring him breakfast every morning. And, you know, they're all rah rah guys, except for Norm Chow, who was this very, very quiet, still is.

Never had a hair out of place, you know, just wasn't a rah rah guy. And it, It, It. It worked. I mean, it was kind of good to have that. It was like ballast, you know, it was.

The ship would go back and forth with all this crazy, you know, personalities, and Norm was always there. You know, Norm was always one of the first people in the office, and Ed Orgeron would go and burn his ear up. And, you know, people had complaints.

They'd go to Norm. He was like the. Almost the paternal presence there, I'd say, even though he wasn't much.

You know, he was older than most people, but he wasn't that much older. But he was very much like the sort of, or almost grandfatherly presence. Right. And so it was a real. Those two.

I don't want to spoil too much of it, but those two had a rift, Carol and Chow.

And part of it had to do with their differing personalities, but another part of it is that Norm was getting a ton of credit for USC success, you know, for. For grooming, you know, two Heisman quarterbacks, for designing, you know, an explosive offense that, you know, it would. Would win games 77 to 10.

So, you know, part of that had to do with, like, you know, norms getting a lot of the credit. You know, I want to try something different. I want to try my guys that are, you know, he considered Lane and Sark kind of his guys, you know, so he.

Let's. Let's Norm go. It's, It's. You know, they classified as a mutual separation, but it was definitely not mutual.

Norm actually says in the book that he would have preferred to stay if he could. And, and then Sarkin Kiffin take over, and it's just fireworks from there.

I mean, they're always like, deep ball here and, you know, throw it long and a lot of pressure on the stars. They put a whole lot of pressure on the stars. But, but it was, you know, it was electric, I'll tell you that.

Yeah, it definitely was. And you sell that in the book, too. You know, you, you got me fired up in the beginning.

You know, you tell a little bit of history and then you get me fired up and ramped up for going, you know, sometimes game by game in some of these pivotal seasons of Pete Carroll at usc. And you're just really a joy to read and to remember. Yeah. Yeah. So. So what do you think? I. I know you. You talk about this a little bit.

You know, Pete Carroll was smart enough to realize as he was going through his coaching stints and his failures of picking up on. On things and learning some things and adopting and adapting. What do you think sort of took him to that USC point.

What were some of the biggest changes he made from the jets where he had no rules?

You know, I, I think it was for one, he spent that whole season he was out of football aside, he and Kerwin tried to start something that sounded an awful lot like what would become the NFL Network. It's a very good idea.

They didn't have any funding for it, but other than that, he spent a lot of time holed up in his New Hampshire lakehouse, you know, looking out at the white snow and just writing down, like, his philosophy sort of, you know, I mean, he, he, he loved John Wooden, and he reread Wooden's famous book, which is called the Blue Book, which is kind of outlines John Wooden's philosophy. And, but, but I think a lot of it had to do with discipline. You know, I mean, he had a.

He just had to figure out how to keep it fun, keep it loose, but keep it within parameters. Right? I mean, there's this.

You, you can't have the inmates running the asylum, basically, which is kind of what he had at the, at the jets and the Patriots. But, you know, but again, the kids are younger, right? And you've got so much control.

You know, if they mess up, if a pro player messes up, they're not going to study hall from 8 to 11, you know, I mean, they're going home. So these kids, if they messed up, put them in study hall, they messed up. Ed Orgeron gets them up at 5 o' clock and they do gassers in the morning.

You know, I mean, so there's so much more control over these kids.

But I think a lot of it was just, you know, evolving into, you know, just him getting a little more mature and realizing that, you know, he, he had a little affirmation card that he wrote that he kept in his car that said, I will coach this team with discipline today. So a lot of it was just that.

Yeah. So you talk, you know, a lot, not only about Pete, but you talk about a lot about the players.

You have, you know, great background on Matt Leinert and Reggie Bush and, you know, some of these other great players from that, that era of USC football. What was maybe one of the most surprising items that, that you did during your research that you wrote about?

I mean, there was a, there was a lot. I'll start, I'll start with Leiner because I, I, I vaguely knew Leonard's backstory, but I didn't know it quite that well.

And, you know, I didn't realize that he was, you know, as a kid, he was, he was obese and cross eyed. He had something called strabismus, which is just a natural, you know, born kind of cross eyed. And he was, you know, mercilessly picked on as a kid.

Every once in a while his older brother would step in. But, you know, this is back before there was like a national conversation about bullying, right?

You just kind of, if you got bullied, you kind of grinned and bared it, but it like, it dug into his soul, you know, and eventually he got his eyes fixed. And, you know, this is like the, it's like the, the swan story, right? The fairy tale, but, you know, the.

Ugly duckling type thing.

Exactly. Ugly duck. This is the ugly duckling thing.

So he, and then he, you know, ninth grade, all of a sudden he kind of grows tall and like has muscles, stuff like this, and becomes this incredible athlete. Like great basketball player, great baseball player and phenomenal quarterback.

And, you know, I feel like one thing that, that just kept, you know, Leonard always kept that hurt close to him a little bit, right. As a, as a motivator, as something that, like, you know, he just, he just never forgot it.

Right?

And in some ways that's what he. Much tougher quarterback than we give him credit for. Had some bad injuries at usc, played through him, Great leader.

And then, you know what's interesting, you know, I was talking about the celebrities earlier to a certain degree, Reggie Bush and he, but particularly Matt Leiner became as famous, if not more famous than some of the Celebrities who were coming to watch the team. I mean, Matt Leiner. I was looking through old issues of People magazine and Us Weekly, you know, which were the sort of gossip rags back then.

He's all over them. He's out there with Britney Spears and he's out there with Paris Hilton.

The documenting him coming out of the Chateau Mormont, all this kind of stuff. So this guy, as a college kid, you know, is.

Is.

Is part of that. That sort of what we call now the TMZ kind of universe, right? People are following them around.

One of my favorite anecdotes in the book is after practice one day, Will Ferrell comes up to liner and says, you want to go have lunch? And they go sit down and have lunch, and a student comes up and asks for Leinert autograph and not Will Ferrell's, which I love.

I mean, to me, that was sort of emblematic of the whole thing. So, you know, I loved all that stuff. I love getting Carol's.

You know, it's cool to interview people after they've had a little, you know, there's some distance now between these things. I've had time to kind of really think about it. They've had time to hopefully be more honest about it. I feel like, you know, there's.

If you interview people three years after the run's over or five years, they can be a little. Their heads are still messed up about it. But to get, you know, Lane Kiffin's point of view on, you know, not only Dynasty, but.

But specific plays like the Bush push, like, what was the call there? Or what was the call on, you know, Lindell White's, you know, missed fourth down in the USC Texas.

So to get all that insight from Carol and Kiffin, but also the players, to talk to Lindell White about what it felt like to, you know, not quite make it. And then, you know, I mean, I don't know if you remember this in the. In the.

Or if your listeners remember it, but in the national title game, USC was kind of rolling early, and they had a screen pass that went to Reggie Bush, and he just rumbled down the field 60 some yards. And it looked like, okay, here the route is going to be on. And just as he was being tackled out of nowhere, he tries to lateral it back to this.

This guy who was a walk on, who was there basically as a blocking receiver. And it was a terrible lateral. This guy wasn't this guy's fault at all. He didn't catch it. Texas jumps on it. They go down and Score.

The whole game has changed on that. So to get a talk, I interviewed that. Walk on. What was it like? What were you doing out there? What did it feel like? And it was.

It was kind of sort of sad in some ways because he's still is. You know, he's not remembered for the father he is or the husband he is or what he does for his work. He's. Oh, you didn't catch that lateral.

That's what people say to him when he. When they come up to him. So, you know, we forget there's, like little human stories within all of these stories as well.

So I just love all that stuff.

Yeah, it's brilliantly done. Why don't you give us the name of your book again and where folks can get a copy?

It's called Men of Troy and it better damn well be in your local bookstore. If it's not, you can. Can ask them to get one. It's also on Amazon if you. If you prefer that.

And I can be reached through my website if you want to, you know, talk to me about it. I can. I'll. I love chatting with people who've read it, even people who have beefs with it. I've got no problem. Bring it on. Let's go.

So, yeah, yeah, it's a. It's a great story, folks.

It's a controversial story, you know, because it was in the public eye and so, you know, really brought a bad light into football. But the history of the book and the, you know, the journalism that you did on this is excellent and, and I highly recommend it.

And we really thank you for joining us, Monty, and good luck with the sale of the book, of course.

Thank you very much for having me on. I appreciate it.

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