Legends of the Gridiron: Unveiling Raymond Berry’s Legacy

You know, some of the biggest legends in football were the guys that really got up to the big games.

They played their best when the chips were high and the stakes were astronomical.

Our guest today wrote a book about one of these.

His name is Raymond Berry and Wayne Stewart is here to tell us his story in just a moment.

This is the Pigskin Daily History Dispatch, a podcast that covers the anniversaries of American football events throughout history.

Your host, Darrin Hayes is podcasting from America, America's North Shore, to bring you the memories of the gridiron one day at a time.

Hello, my football friends.

This is Darren Hayes of pigskindispatch.com welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal deposit of football history.

And welcome to another edition where we get to talk to some experts on some legends of the game of football.

And today we really have a special and somebody that I don't think we've talked too much about and probably I'm crazy for not talking about this guy with somebody, but we found an expert on him, a gentleman wrote a book on Raymond Berry.

His name is Wayne Stewart and he has some other books as well, which we'll talk about.

Wayne, welcome to the Pig Pen.

Thanks.

Great to be here.

Yep.

Yeah.

Wayne, you know, this is exciting.

You approached sort of our network here at Sports History Network and had some books available and some, some really caught my eye.

But earlier back in the 70s, I can remember a couple World Series.

Wayne, what sort of inspired you to, to write about sports history?

Well, you know, I grew up in a town that produced a lot of great athletes.

In fact, the town gave itself the nickname home of the champions, Denora, Pennsylvania.

And it certainly is true.

I mean no false claims there.

Stan the man usual is from dinara.

Ken Griffey senior, 296 lifetime hitter.

Actually out hit his son.

You know, maybe not out powered him, but out hit him.

And of course Griffey Jr. Is also given the, the birthplace of Dinar, Pennsylvania.

And they had a guy who led the league in rushing, Deacon Dan toddler back in 52 I believe it was.

So yeah, it's, it's been quite a town.

So naturally growing up, every once in a while Mutual would come back town.

I got to meet him one time.

So I've Always been interested in sports and baseball in particular, but I've done quite a few books on football.

And so, you know, in fact I went to the same high school, same class was on the same baseball team with Griffey Senior.

So all of that plus my parents influence.

My mom taught me to love to read, my dad loved words and taught me that love.

So everything kind of gelled and I wanted to be a writer since I was six.

So fortunately it came to fruition.

Oh, very, very interesting.

We know we're going to talk quite a bit about your Raymond Barry book.

What are some of the other titles that you have?

Well, a couple of my favorites would be the biography I did of Stan Musho.

It's called Stan the Man and then sort of subtitle the life and times of Stan Musial.

Coming from Dinar, I was able to talk to some of his old classmates and things like that and people trusted me.

So I, I think that's a very interesting book on unmusual.

Another one of my favorites is a book called Wits, as in, you know, sharp wit, clever.

So it's called Wits, Flakes and Clowns, subtitled Colorful Characters of Baseball.

And I really think this has got to be one of the funniest books ever written on baseball.

I'm saying that modestly because a lot of the stuff in there is from other sources.

So it's not that I came up with all this genius stuff, but then I did interview a great deal of players who would share their memories of Tug Magor and, you know, all these colorful characters.

Joe Charbonneau out of Cleveland, rookie of the Year, and the list goes on and on.

But that's another one of my favorites.

And that was a phrase of Bob Prinze.

And I really enjoyed doing that because I spoke to virtually every at the time living player, Vern Law.

We've since lost guys like Dick Grote and How Smith, but that's another favorite.

And I'd have to say I also really am proud of fathers, sons and baseball.

There I was able to do a chapter on many ballplayers who had that father son combination, including the Griffey.

So here I am, a classmate saying, hey Kenny, let's, let's talk a little bit.

And so that was kind of fun to put that book Fathers, Sons and Baseball together.

And I'M certainly proud of the.

I co authored sort of a ghost for the Raymond Berry book because he and I worked together.

Oh.

I mean, all of them sound very exciting.

Now, are these available still in print that people can purchase and where can people get them?

Should be.

And I think in, in most cases, you can find them on Amazon, Barnes and Noble.

The older titles probably there and not in a bookstore, unless you're lucky or whatever.

The.

On Amazon.

Yeah.

Okay.

And folks, if you're driving in a car or taking a run or something while you're listening to this, we'll put some links in the, the podcast notes and the YouTube notes so that you can get connected to some of Wayne's books and titles and get them on order and get them in your library that be very interesting.

We're here to talk about your.

The book you co authored with Mr. Barry, the Raymond Barry book.

And what was sort of your inspiration to.

To write a book on Raymond Barry.

First of all, I'd just like to say the publishers gave it the name, all the moves I had.

I wanted to call it Catch me if you can or catch you later, you know, with him being such a great catcher passes.

But they said that, you know, catch me if you can would be confused with a movie title.

But as far as the inspiration, I actually did a book about great athletes, football out of western Pennsylvania, Focus on the six hall of Fame quarterbacks, you know, Jim Kelly, Namath, you know, Bland Montana, who lived just on the road from me.

And when I did, I was able to get phone numbers of guys like Lenny Moore, Gino Marchetti, and one was Raymond Barry.

So as he's telling me things about Unitis, who grew up, you know, Pittsburgh, Mount Washington, he we just started talking.

I said, you know, has anybody ever done your autobiography?

So no, I thought, this, this is crazy.

This guy has to have this story told.

And I think he really wanted to reach the audience of youngsters and share his method of his message, I should say of dedication and hard work, even religion.

He's pretty devout Christian.

And so he said, yeah, sure, let's do it.

And, you know, it clicked.

And it was so funny because that book, America's Football Factory, pointed out that Unitis, and you know, how he clicked with.

With Barry is one of the six quarterbacks, as I mentioned, from the general vicinity around Pittsburgh, goes far north as Jim Kelly.

But that represents almost 25 of the modern quarterbacks in the hall of Fame, all coming from a nucleus, so to speak, around the nucleus of Pittsburgh.

So it's crazy.

Yeah.

I can tell you firsthand, being a PIA official.

I'm retired, but I was 27 years in Western Pennsylvania.

I think we definitely had a stronger brand of football than the rest of the state.

Of course, that was before the Philadelphia schools joined.

But there's always something special about, you know, each team seems to have these powerhouses and especially down there in the whit, around the Pittsburgh area where most of these quarterbacks came from.

And some pretty good running backs too, like Tony Dorsett and.

And company down there too.

Curtis Martin.

So I was just going to say the book isn't limited to the quarterbacks because like you said, we're talking aliquippa with Mike Ditka.

He did the forward for the book.

And so we got into a lot of other players, you know, Fred Cox and a lot of great players.

Cox is still the leading scorer in the history of the Vikings, you know, as a place kicker.

So it does focus on the quarterbacks.

But yes, you're right, Western Pennsylvania has been a hotbed of athleticism.

Yeah, it definitely is.

And I've also.

The books that I pen are always about Western Pennsylvania too.

You know, I told you earlier about the Franklin book and the audience is familiar with that.

And another Western Pennsylvania from Dubois coached the Cal Wonder team.

Andy Smith was the coach, the other the opponent of W and J.

So I got.

Got two folds of Western Pennsylvania.

I'd be out here soon, but yeah, so I'm.

You're speaking my language with the Western Pennsylvanians.

Well, you know, the funny thing is the guy I mentioned who led the NFL in rushing was Deacon Dan Towler who went on to play for the Rams.

But he's from W and J. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tremendous program that they've had there over the years that people don't even know about.

Didn't know about him then either.

But really some good football and some great characters like Greasy Neal going through there and the players are outstanding that have been through there.

So probably almost as much history, almost as Pitt and Duquesne and some of the other great Carnegie Tech.

Some of those programs that were really high back then too.

Yeah.

So.

But now Barry played college and football's single platoon rules system.

Now did he play a defensive position?

I'm Assuming too.

And what was that he did?

I have some notes here.

Let me find so I can get it.

100 accurate.

He A quote from the book.

In both my high school and college football playing days, defense was where I made my name.

I didn't realize that he played the position.

He said nowadays would be probably called outside linebacker.

But then they call him a defensive end.

So here's one of the greatest receivers in the history of the game.

And he made his living, so to speak, on the defensive side.

Yeah.

Using his hands in a different way, a combat motion on defense and using them to cradle in a nice pass on offense.

I wasn't expecting.

I was expecting more of a defensive back roller.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I got an opportunity to Talk to Dick LeBeau not too long ago and he also played in the 50s.

He In Ohio State under Woody Hayes.

He, you know, known for being a great DB hall of Famer with Detroit.

He was a running back.

Had some interesting things.

He scored Ohio State's first two point conversion from a running back and scored two TDs rushing against Michigan to inevitably give Ohio State the national championship.

I believe in like 56 or 57.

So yeah.

It's interesting how these guys morph and are so talented as athletes and.

Right.

I'm sure, you know, Raymond Berry must have been.

It'd be amazing to.

To see some of those college films.

A favor if they're available of what he did now did.

What kind of accolades and awards would he have got out of college?

Well, he was very proud of the fact that when he was a senior, even though he had never been a starter up to that point, which is also kind of hard to believe.

He was named as a co captain.

And he also said that he was considered to be really an outstanding defensive player, as I mentioned.

But no major national football awards came his way, at least not yet.

Those awards would come later, you know, but the one thing he did get named to was the all Southwest Conference team.

And he also was an academic All American.

Okay.

And I guess we're omitting the fact of what college you plead for him.

I apologize for that.

Oh yeah.

Well, it's funny because one of the chapters in the book is the transition from his college days at SMU to the Colts.

So the title was something like he goes from being a Mustang to a Colt.

Well, that's a pretty good transition.

It's better than being a lion to a goat or something.

That's a.

That's interesting now.

Okay.

The.

I guess Raymond Berry is really some of the things that I think of, you know, from being, you know, studying football history is, you know, the amazing route tree that he sort of.

He had.

I mean, he openly talked about having, you know, I forget how many, but it was over 100 different routes that he claimed to have been.

Most of those are the basis sort of for the route trees that NFL, college and high school teams use today for basic routes.

Not.

Not 100 or 108 or whatever Mr. Barry had.

But what was his inspiration, or who was his inspiration to.

To have these routes that he ran?

Well, in general, he was a student of the game.

I mean, he was a perfectionist at smu.

He studied film of another Mustang, which was Doak Walker, All American Heisman winner who sometimes used as a flanker.

That might not have been his most famous position, but Barry studied him.

Other than that, he was just.

He tirelessly ran the roots, you know, in practice and whatever.

So very dedicated.

And when he and Unitis, who also was a perfectionist, got together that stay after practice many, many times, and their timing and precision just became, you know, superb.

He was glad to see, too, when he came into camp that the Colts didn't have any standout veteran receivers, so he wouldn't have to compete against anybody.

So he really, you know, focused everything he probably would have anyway on making the team.

And the Colts also used their.

Their ends.

He told me to block more than most teams in the NFL and being a good defensive player and a good.

A good guy, as far as that's concerned, that helped him because it was funny because the Colts had, I think he said, 90 rookies in camp.

They kept about a dozen and he was, of course, one of them.

And I should mention too, that I think his.

You said, like, who did he study or admire?

Whatever.

Crazy Legs Hersh.

He saw a movie about him when he was young and he said, you know, that's.

That's incredible.

And so that was a big inspiration.

Yeah.

Pretty good role model there for if you're going to be a receiver in that era.

That's for sure.

That's for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Outstanding.

So I know you've alluded to it a little bit, but usually, you know, we.

We all think, you know, that players play college and if you're good, you get drafted and that that's it.

But sometimes there's some unique stories of players transitioning or the draft process or free agency projects, however they got to their teams.

Is there anything that Mr. Barry shared that would be kind of unique to his story?

Well, are you Talking like how his path to the NFL came about, Correct?

Yeah.

How his path.

Well, all I know is, as I mentioned, there were so many rookies in camp that he thought the path was not going to be smooth, just as you said, some kids are sensations in high school and whatever, but.

So he.

He knew he was concerned about making the team.

He said the critics would contend that he was too slow, and they seem to have said that all his career, although he ran track and he felt he.

He could keep up with just about anybody.

And certainly given his moves, the deception, defensive backs were at a disadvantage.

Even though he might not have been as blazing fast, you know, straight out as them.

Some said that he was too small to make it, and they talked about his vision being poor.

So that was a rough path to follow.

Now, you got to remember, too, in 54, he was a 20th round, and they called it a future draft pick.

So he's still in college, but the Colts are saying we'll wait a year like they did with Larry Bird, I guess you could say.

And so the Colts were willing to.

To wait and see if he had the right stuff.

And, you know, by the time his senior year was over, where he was a starter finally, you know, they didn't pass much in those days, but the path was there.

Drafted, and then he impressed people.

Yeah, that's amazing.

And it's very fortunate that they had the patience and they saw the talent in them.

Must have some very skilled talent observers back then and person player personnel.

So, okay, so we talked a little bit.

He's.

He's modeled his game sort of after crazy Legs.

H. You know, Unitis is an influence on him.

Once they get together with the Colts.

What.

What was sort of, you know, Barry's breakout moment in the NFL that, you know, the.

The NFL started to take notice and say, hey, this guy's pretty good.

Yeah, I'd have to say kind of in his second season, that was 56, because that was the first time he had a game in which he had 100 yards, over 100 in receptions.

But that wasn't enough to really make the nation pay attention.

You know, I'm sure his coaches are saying, hey, this looks pretty good.

He and Unitis good, good combo.

But people really started that notice, I think, the next year because, for example, a highlight was a game where he caught a dozen passes.

It was like 225 yards or so and a couple of touchdowns.

So now they're starting to perk up a bit.

And the next season he gained even bigger.

You know, recognition, because that was when he was named for the first time to the first team all pro squad.

And he really became a huge weapon in the arsenal, you know, the Colts and that was of course, their championship

season as well, and the greatest game ever played where he also had, I believe, a dozen catches and 178 yards or something, which, which, you know, when you talk about those numbers, you're talking over, you know, over 10 catches and over 100 yards.

Even in that era, you know, much different brand of football than we talked.

If somebody caught 178 yards, a dozen passes today, we would be applauding them and saying, wow, that's a quite a performance.

But to do that in a running based game is, I mean, that's unbelievable.

So that no wonder he stood out from a crowd, that's for sure.

Yeah.

So, you know, Raymond seemed to have quite a connection to feel with Johnny Unitis.

And we've talked a little bit about it.

Now.

How did this camaraderie transpire?

Well, I think they saw, you know, a kindred spirit or whatever in each other because they were both very competitive and skilled.

And as I said, both of them were perfectionists.

They were willing to spend the time to click and, you know, seeing that they decided to really work together.

They wanted to win, of course, and so to improve their game, as I said, they would stay after practice, which I guess was unusual.

You know, you're exhausted by then.

But the Colts had a coach and we view bank and he saw them working together after practices.

And instead of maybe, I guess I get the impression from Raymond, some coaches might have said, no, no, you know, you're gonna wear yourself out or whatever, I don't know.

He encouraged them.

And in all the moves I had, Barry had a quote.

And I have it here.

Exactly.

One of the keys to our relationship and the timing we had together was that the work level and the work ethic of the two of us were exactly the same.

We wanted to work after practice.

And he had an arm that never wore out, never got tired practicing.

Extra was a rarity, he said, in the NFL at that point.

But after practice has ended, we've had enough sense to leave us alone.

That's his direct quote.

Now, did they do anything that you know, of, like off the field that keep the chemistry brewing?

Yeah, I don't think, you know, we would say that they were.

Every day after practice they would go to each other's home and everything.

But I know Raymond knew of Johnny's children that they, you know, must have visited and that sort of thing.

And I think the impression I got he was very fond of, of the family and I know the daughter was very cooperative when I wrote this book and the other book, as I say, all the moves I had, I'm sorry, not that one, but the America's Football Factory.

So yeah, I think.

And so was the sun Chad who worked with the, the Ravens.

So I think you'd have to like that family, you know, given unitis personality and whatever.

So yeah, I think they, they gelled off the field as well.

Sure.

Okay.

But he was a young player personnel director of the colts during the 60s, which they had some great years that those two enjoyed as Colts as well.

And Upton relayed quite a bit that this, the, those Colts teams were.

Had a chemistry like none other.

And you know, Upton's family has been around football since it began.

You know, John Seabell, Burt Bell and, and he himself and he said he's never seen a group of guys on a football team that did things together.

They'd go and you know, have, have a, a cocktail or something after practice or whatever, you know, go out of town, they go eat dinner together and just really gelled together.

And I was just trying to see, you know, is that the same between those two individuals as well?

Okay.

It was a good bond there.

You know, again, I'm not sure that they spent every minute off the field, but.

Yeah, I think your comments are valid, certainly.

Yeah.

All right.

Now we talked a little bit about, you know, his 225 yard game, the, the greatest game ever played, his performance and that which are both outstanding and still, still my job I'm still picking up off the floor.

But, you know, are those sort of the highlights of his moment?

If somebody was going to say, hey, let's show one film of a play that Raymond Berry did the define his career, would one of those be his or do you have something different?

Well, I think it was a series of moments that all were packed into a very short period of time.

That's the 58 championship game against the Giants in New York.

The game, as we mentioned, is still referred to as the greatest game ever played.

I know some critics dispute that, but it was a great game.

You know, that's not Quabble, you know, quibble.

With time running out, the Giants were down by three, I mean, the Colts were down by three and they were on their own 14 yard line.

And, you know, things weren't looking exactly great for him.

The quote I have in front of me, Barry said, I started, I stared down the field.

The goal post looked like they were in Baltimore.

And then the drive did move kind of slowly until the moment when moments when Barry caught three straight passes, the first completion was one he called the most important single play of his entire career.

So that kind of answers your question, but I think all three.

And after the first pass completion, he said, that's when we went on a roll.

And as an aftermath, as a postscript, about a year later, Barry was, you know, mulling this over.

He had thought about it for a while, about the three passes in a row.

And so he asked Johnny, he said, explain why you came to me three times in a row.

And United says, oh, I figured you'd catch him.

So that's the combo.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

Most times, especially players from, you know, 50, 60 years ago, like we're talking about Raymond Berry, if we compared them to the size of people in the same position today, most of the time we would say, oh, those guys were tiny and they'd never compete.

But you look at the size that's recorded for Raymond Barry at his heyday, you know, he was like 6, 2, I believe, 187 pounds.

That's a good size receiver in today's game.

And especially with the catch radius and the talents and skills that he has, he would probably be one of those that would probably make it in today's game as well.

Yeah, you know, that's why I was a little surprised when he said at one point that the critics said back then he was too slow, he was too this and too small.

You know, maybe he was referring to his freshman year in college or high school or something, because, yeah, that's a good size.

And you always wonder, like, what would Babe Ruth do if he was playing today?

And we'll never know.

But Barry, yeah, he's had all the, all the moves and all the rules.

Now you just to be fair to the experts, back then, they, they, there was very few receivers that were outstanding.

You know, you had like crazy like H's teammate Tom Fears, probably Danton Hudson.

You know, they're comparing who are a little bit smaller in stature and little quick juke guys, I guess would be the best description of them, where Barry is a little bit more methodical, but a bigger target for a quarterback, which I don't think they figured out in football at that point in time until Mr. Barry hit the scene.

Yeah, maybe.

Maybe so, you know, but no, no matter how you look at it, he accomplished what he did.

And again, we'll never be able to compare with nowadays.

But, you know, when you, when you're making all Pro and that sort of thing, you've.

You've done your job.

Yeah, most certainly.

Now, why don't you.

Again, as long as we have the listeners listening still, why don't we give the title of your book and where folks can get it?

Sure.

The Raymond Berry book is called all the Moves I Had.

And that would definitely be accessible on, I think, Barnes and Noble website, Amazon.

So it's not currently out, you know, as far as, if you go to a bookstore, it might not be there, of course, but yeah, best bet, Amazon, Barnes and Noble.

Okay, Very good.

Now, you know, since you write about a plethora of topics in sports history, do you have anything on the horizon that maybe you could share with us to look forward to?

I do.

It just fell into place this way.

Recently, December, early December, a book called I Love Baseball is coming out.

And it's kind of a.

A broad look at anything dealing with the love of baseball.

It's got quotes from celebrities and famous writers.

And I talked to a couple of people like the mayor of Cooperstown and just different people expressing their theories on why people love baseball and people just flat out saying, you know, my uncle took me to a game and blah, blah, blah, all these memories.

But it also has things like we love baseball because of odd plays.

And so we explore that, we explore some trivia.

So it really is very broad, but it does all relate to the reasons baseball is so lovable.

And then two months later, coincidentally, I have another book coming out called Talking Baseball with Major League Stars.

And since I started doing interviews with players back in like 78, I've compiled all my stuff.

Like maybe I talked to Nolan Ryan about pitching the mechanics.

I remember Tony Gwynn was very helpful talking about the art of hitting.

So I took all these quotes on tons of different topics.

Pitching, hitting, managing, hit and run, you know, the squeeze play, why is it dead nowadays?

And I just took all these quotes from.

I think there were like 50 hall of Famers in this book, but there are Also, guys like Rex Hudler, not a superstar, but he had insights.

So all this came together with all these interviews and talking baseball with major league stars.

Well, Wayne, it's fascinating topics, all of it, from the baseball to the football and everything in between that you're doing.

And we appreciate the work that you're doing to help preserve not only sports history, but football history.

And, you know, love to talk to you again sometime about some of your books, especially the one with the quarterbacks and the players from Western Pennsylvania.

We'll have to set something up on that for a future one.

I have to get a copy of a couple of these books and read them here, too.

So to enjoy it, you got me inspired.

I'm sure the audience too.

And gosh, we really appreciate your time and joining us today and spending some time to talk about Raymond Berry and

you know, what you might like.

There was a book I did called you're the football ref, which has scenarios and then, you know, the correct answer.

Would a penalty be called for this?

How many pen.

You know, how many yards penalty for this?

So, yeah, that's.

Football is a good sport.

Almost like the old commercials.

They seven to seven.

He's like, you make the call.

Exactly, exactly.

Okay.

Yeah, definitely be interested in that, too.

That's very fascinating.

Well, Wayne, thank you for joining us and spending the time today and we appreciate you.

I enjoyed and love talking to people, know their stuff and you do, so thank you.

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