A Historic Partnership: The Impact of Summerall and Madden on NFL Broadcasting

Two men that set broadcasting football games on its head is Pat Summerall and John Madden.

They were teamed up.

Boy, was it magic.

And it was fun to watch football again.

But we have an author that wrote a book on Madden and Summerall with that title.

Indeed.

He's up in just a moment to tell us all about this duel.

This is the Pigskin Daily History Dispatch.

A podcast that covers the anniversaries of.

American football events throughout history.

Your host, Darren Hayes is podcasting from America's North Shore to bring you the.

Memories of the grid one day at a time.

Hello, my football friends.

This is Darren Hayes of pigskindispatch.com welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal deposit of football history.

And welcome to another episode where we get to talk to an author that's released a recent book on football history.

And this one you're really going to like because it's such pop culture and everybody's going to know these names we're going to talk about.

It's a lot of fun.

The author's name is Rich Podolsky.

He joins us today.

Rich, welcome to the Pig Pen.

Thank you, Darren.

My pleasure to be with you.

Yeah, Rich, if you could share with us what the recent title of the book is and what it's about and where people can get it, we'll give you another opportunity in a little bit to do the same.

Okay.

It's called Madden and Summerall about John Madden and Pat Summerall, how they revolutionized NFL broadcasting.

This is what it looks like when you go on Amazon.

That's the COVID Go on Amazon, put in Madden Summerall, or you put in my name and it'll pop right up.

It's.

It's doing quite well.

It's been out for close to a month now, and we've had great support from people like Tom Brady and Joe Buck, Jim Nance, Al Michaels.

They've all recommended the book.

And I think anybody who remembers Madden and Summerle will particularly enjoy learning about their inside scoop and how they got together and what made them tick.

Yeah, it is a fantastic book.

I appreciate that you and your publicist sent me an advanced copy.

I got to read it, really enjoyed it.

And you're talking about these names that are promote, you know, helping you promote it.

I mean, when you have Joe Buck and Troy Aikman doing your forward and really, really got me excited as I got into the book and of course the intro and everything afterwards was fantastic too.

So.

So, Rich, what sort of provoked you to write about these folks four years.

I had worked at CBS Sports in the late 70s and early 80s.

I was a writer on the show and also did some public relations work during the week.

I wrote the NFL Today show on the weekend.

And, you know, I knew all these people.

And four years ago I wrote the book on the history of the NFL today, which was just turned 50 years old.

The NFL Today, briefly, was the first pregame show to go live.

The first to have a woman who was Phyllis George, former Miss America, first to have a black analyst.

That was Irv Cross.

And the first to discuss gambling.

And that was with Jimmy the Greek Snyder.

And it was so new that people just rushed home from church to say it.

You know, they were.

They were seeing stuff they never saw before on a pregame show.

Previously, pregame shows were taped on Thursday for Sunday.

And, you know, there was nothing new in it, so to speak.

And they, CBS came up with a way to do it all live.

And it was very exciting and it made stars out of Brent Musburger and Phyllis George and Irv Cross and Jimmy the Greek.

And its first season, it won 13 Emmy Awards, which was unheard of.

So I was sort of basking in the glory of that book and enjoying that.

Having lunch with one of the CBS execs a year or so afterward, and she mentioned to me that she wanted to start writing a sub stack because she had a lot of good Madden and Summer Hole stories to tell.

And I said, don't write a substack.

Write a book.

I don't know how to write a book.

I could never.

I said, I'll help you.

I won't put my name on it.

I'll just help you get it organized.

You do all the writing, I'll edit it for you.

It'll be great.

She said, I'm not right.

I can't write a book.

You write the book.

She said, I'll give you my stories and you could contact everybody else who knew them and get the whole loadout.

And I thought about it and I thought, you know, this could be a pretty fun book to write.

Besides the fact that Madden Summerall had been not.

So it had been way more than 220 years since anybody had heard them.

They were the best that that had ever been put together.

They were together for 21 years.

Madden alone won 16 Emmy awards.

He didn't know how to be an analyst and nobody at CBS was helping him.

Now I was there at the time, but that wasn't part of my job.

My job was in the weekend show the NFL Today.

But I was friends with Madden from knowing him.

When I covered the Miami Dolphins in the mid-70s, I got to know Madden pretty well.

And when he came to cbs, myself and Jimmy the Greek were the only two people he knew.

So we would go out a lot in the evenings and I really got to see what a wonderful personality he had.

And it just wasn't showing up in the games he was doing because he really didn't know how to bring it out.

He didn't know when to come in as an analyst.

He was stepping on the play by play guys toes, when to get out and how to throw it to commercial.

He didn't know any of that stuff.

And they didn't help him because he did four games that first year and each game was with a different play by play guy, a different director and different producer.

So it was no wonder at the end of the season there were some executives who said, we don't need to bring him back, he wasn't very good.

Then something happened that made Madden show up in a different light in front of all the executive's eyes.

And that was at a pre super bowl luncheon for Super Bowl 14 LA at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel.

The Arts & TV Arts & Sciences people asked CBS to put on their monthly lunch and they did.

They had a dais with Brent Musburger one end, the commissioner Pete Roselle at the other end and in between were three super bowl coaches.

They were all working for cbs, Madden, George Allen and Hank Strahan.

And somewhere along the way somebody asked the question, would any of those three coaches go back to coaching if they had a good offer?

And George Allen sort of hemmed and hawed and didn't really answer the question.

Hank Stram, who was the number two guy, said how happy he was being number two.

He was working with Vince Scully.

And then it was Madden's turn.

And instead of just sitting there and giving a glib answer, Madden gets up, walks on the dais behind all the chairs, walks down to the other end where Pete Roselle puts his hand on Pete Roselle's shoulder, squeezes it and says, you know, people ask me all the time what I think of NFL officiating and the whole audience of 500 people crack up and Roselle is sitting there laughing.

Madden has this big smirk on his face and his arms are out like this.

And for the next five minutes, he goes into a routine about NFL officials, and it was hilarious.

And all of a sudden, you know, he had the whole room in the palm of his hand.

It was as if he was in a nightclub.

And when it was over, the CBS executives all got together in the lobby and they came to the conclusion that he wasn't just another ex coach who wanted to be an analyst.

They saw him for the possibilities of what he could be.

And that's how I start off the book.

And that's how John Madden saved his job as a TV analyst and kept it.

And he improved tremendously.

But it wasn't to be because a new head of CBS Sports named Van Gordon Sauter came in and he decided that he wanted to split up the number one team of Pat Summerall and Tom Berkshire, because they had a lot of shenanigans when they were always out drinking on the weekends.

And that got back to CBS headquarters.

So he wanted to split them up.

And the new executive producer, Terry o' Neill, said to Sauter, who's going to be your number one team?

He said, I think I want Vince Gully to be my play by play guy, and for sure I want John Madden to be my analyst.

And Terry o' Neill said, well, John has only done a few games and they have.

None of them have ever gone back, just to New York, nobody's seen him except maybe Tampa and Minnesota or the two cities that he's doing the games.

Why do you, have you ever seen any of his tapes?

He asked him and Slaughter said, no, no, no, I haven't seen any of his game.

Well, how do you know he's the guy?

He's the guy.

I'm telling you, he's the guy.

How do you know?

Well, I've seen him on those Miller Light commercials, 30 seconds at a time.

And he just captured the whole aura of what a good analyst should be, somebody that you want to hang out with at a bar.

And that's how Sauder made that decision.

And Terry o' Neill talked Sauder out of Vin Scully being the partner and talked him into Pat Summerall.

And the reason for that was he knew that Scully loved to talk all the time, Madden loved to talk all the time, and he said the audience would be rung out by halftime.

On the other hand, Summer was a minimalist.

He idolized Ray Scott, who he learned the, the Broadcasting from Scott was great play by play guy in the 60s.

In fact he broadcast the first Super bowl for CBS and he was no longer with cbs.

And O' Neill knew that he could get Summerall to stop the drinking and to behave.

And he was perfect for Madden because he would let Madden be Madden.

He gave Madden the room to develop his personality, to develop what he wanted to say.

And then along came the, the telestrator called the CBS chalkboard and Madden became the America's nutty football professor.

Yeah, that was a genius.

The CBS execs pairing them together.

And I now I, after I read the book and you're saying right here with Summerall, you know, just had those like two or three phrases, you know, Montana back to pass, you know, you didn't.

And Ver Sculli like you said it would go on and on.

But yeah, that gave plenty of room for an animated character like John Madden to really show his, his personality and let it come out and just a fantastic teaming on them.

It seems like yesterday that you're watching games that those two are doing together and that's just how, how much they've had an impression on folks that watched football during the 80s and the 90s like I did and you did and you know, generations that after that have really missed something special because those guys were great.

They, they certainly were in my opinion.

I don't think there's anybody that any duo in any sport that's ever been better than Pat Summer all in John Madden.

Excuse me.

And the closest I've seen since is the duo that did the two forwards for the book, Joe Buck and, and Troy Aikman.

They, they were very close with Patton and John, Troy especially was close with, with John.

They went into the hall of Fame together the same year.

And Joe, I knew Pat Summerall because Pat worked with Joe's dad, Jack Buck who was a great play by play announcer in his own right.

And it was because of Pat working as an analyst alongside Jack Buck that Pat eventually became a play by play guy because the, the head of the CBS Sports at that time called Patton and said I got to split you guys up.

You and Jack Buck because you sound too much alike.

You both have these great baritones, you know, and, and Pat Said, if you're certain you're going to do that, I'd like to take a shot at doing play by play.

He said, who do you, who do you have in mind to work with?

He said, I've been working on weekends for NFL Films in Philadelphia with a guy named Tom Brookshire, used to play for the Eagles, and I'd like to work with him.

Three days later, they did their first game for cbs and they did the next three Super Bowls together.

And they were terrific.

They were really like, they were those two guys.

They would arrive Thursday, start drinking their margaritas, they have Bloody Marys every morning.

And they wouldn't stop drinking and having fun until they got back to New York.

And, you know, they were fun to listen to.

They were, as somebody who worked with them, they were great to hang out with and nobody was ever going to tell them not to, not to drink so much because they were the guys and it was the Mad Men days anyhow, so that's the way that was.

And eventually it led to trouble and Summerall became the great play by play guy.

And whenever Madden went too far out on a limb, Summerall knew exactly how to reel him back in.

He really gave up of himself and allowed Madden to be Madden.

And they weren't great friends off the air.

They didn't hang out together, but they were friendly, they had tremendous respect for each other and there's been nobody nearly as good before or since.

Yeah, that's interesting that you say that, that they weren't great friends because you walk away from hearing them broadcast together, you think that these are two pals from way back that do everything together and, and that's just the magic, I guess, of them.

Almost the opposites attract, you know, the yin to the yang of those two guys.

And they just did a great thing.

And as you mentioned, you know, their voices complemented each other almost like in harmony, you know, with Madden getting, you know, he could get up pretty shrill in his voice when he got really going.

And, you know, Summer, I was just that, that baritone, it was a steady, calming voice telling you what's going on in the football game.

Now the thing that I came to realize and I, I included several anecdotes of myself doing personal things with John Madden that were interesting and brought them into the book, wrote them in italics, for example, how he got on Saturday Night Live, I had something to do with that.

He did that because he thought he owed his coaching career to Van Brocklin, who taught him how to look at an entire field when he was a rookie trying out with the Eagles.

And.

And there were some other interesting things that I brought out.

But to me, the thing that really made it for Madden was he had so much respect for Summerall as a person, as a player, as a renaissance man in the world of football.

And the Lions had a great quarterback named Bobby Lane, who was tough on the field, and he was a drinker off the field.

If you were in his circle, you.

You had it made.

And Summer all as a rookie got in his circle, but unfortunately, he got injured early in that season, and he only got to play a few games.

He got traded to the Chicago Cardinals, the worst organization in football.

Played there, I think, for five or six or seven years.

Hated it.

And then, fortunately, he got traded to the New York Giants, who wanted him primarily as a kicker.

And there's a funny anecdote in the book about them sending Tumor all in for the.

For the kick at the end of the game.

And when he gets in the huddle, his quarterback says to him, what are you doing here?

Sent me in to kick a field goal.

They did all right.

And he makes it, and he comes running off the field.

There's less than a minute to go.

It's obvious they're going to win the game.

Everybody is congratulating him, and they're waiting for him.

Is the offensive coordinator, eventually Lombardi.

Before Lombardi was the coach of the Green Bay packers, he was the offense, the offensive coordinator for the Giants.

And he's waiting, and Summerall thinks he's going to congratulate him.

And Lombardi grabs him by the shoulders and starts shaking him and says, you son of a bitch.

You know you can't kick it that far.

Lombardi was all in favor of going for the first down instead of kicking the field goal.

And that's how that came about.

Summerall had done it all as a player and then as an analyst.

He started in 62 when CBS had two sets of announcers for each game, play by play Guy and an analyst for the home team and one for the visiting team.

He eventually worked with Ray Scott and that's where he learned about being a minimalist.

Scott was the Green Bay packers announcer most of the time except when he was doing a game for CBS and they had the famous quarterback of part star and receiver boy Daller and, and the race.

Guy firmly believed in letting the pictures to do the talking and he would just simply say star$touchdown and that's all you needed.

Yeah.

And that's how Sumrall learned it.

Somebody once said that if somebody could say something in 10 words, Sumrall could say it in five.

So here he is, this guy who's done it all in the booth on the field.

He, he had been part of every super bowl broadcast for CBS or for the NFL since its Super bowl started in 68, 69.

And Madden has this tremendous respect for him and knows how great he is as a play by play guy.

And of course he's going to show deference to Summerall and Sumrall gladly gave him the room to grow and be the John Madden we got to know with the sound effects and the boom and everything else.

And it wasn't until they were paired together that John Madden became a great football announcer.

And I'll conclude by saying that John's son said it was like peanut butter and jelly meeting for the first time.

That's a great line, great line.

Now just one, one quick question before we end this.

But you know, that's kind of a unique situation other than Summerall and Brookshire being together.

But to have two former NFL people, players, coaches paired instead of having a professional or somebody that went through an education, being a journalist paired with an ex jock, you know, isn't that kind of a unique situation?

It was very, you know, Summer was the first to go from, from the field to the booth as an analyst and then to do play by play.

The first ex player to do play by play.

And there haven't been many, I can't think of any really after him doing play by play.

You know, of course Berkshire did for a little while before he left the business and you know, I, you know, certainly Joe Buck isn't like that.

You know, today the networks are mostly interested in star players, whether they're any good.

You know, so many of these guys today, they think they're Getting paid by the word.

That's, that's true.

They just, you know, I, I was listening to Joe Davis and, and what's his name, former Braves pitcher last night.

Do the baseball game.

Can't think of his name.

Balding guy, hall of Famer.

Anyhow, those guys never shut up.

They just talk, you know, God forbid.

You heard the crowd, they react to something, you know, it just, it's just awful.

Yeah, Sometimes there's the magic of hearing what's going on in, in stadium to know, get a feel.

No wonder Vince Gully liked to work alone, right?

Right.

Rich, why don't you share once again the name of your book?

And folks, you know, don't worry about if you don't have a pen or pencil and he gives a name, you.

Have a copy that you could show?

Yeah, I'll be showing a co up here.

But if you're listening and you're in the car, folks, I'll, I'll put the links in the podcast notes and the YouTube show notes.

And Rich is going to tell us again the name of the book and where you can get it.

The book is called Madden and Summer all how they revolutionized NFL Broadcasting.

And it's available Amazon and most bookstores that you have them.

We'll get links to Amazon.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think we've got something like 30 reviews on Amazon and 28 or five star awesome.

And USA Today raved about the book and so did quite a few others.

Very well deserved.

The thing is, you know, nobody's ever going to compare me to Shakespeare or, or any of the great writers through history, but I'm a pretty good storyteller and there are a heck of a lot of anecdotes in here that people will really enjoy.

They definitely will.

I can vouch for that.

Rich, we thank you so much for first of all writing this book and preserving this piece of football history from the broadcast booth and letting all of us from somebody in the know of broadcasting, two of the best.

And we thank you for joining us today on the show.

My pleasure, Darren.

You take care.

Thanks for having me on.

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