Football History

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For college football fanatics, few names inspire more reverence than Walter Steffen. A coaching giant whose legacy stretches across decades, Steffen's impact on the game is undeniable. Now, you have a chance to delve into his wisdom in a captivating video interview with Timothy Brown of FootballArchaeology.com. This exclusive conversation promises a treasure trove of insights, offering a glimpse into the mind of a true gridiron mastermind. So, buckle up and get ready to learn from a master coach as we explore Walter Steffen's storied career and the timeless knowledge he brings to the game.

-Transcription of Walter Steffen with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another date with Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com, where he's going to share one of his recent tidbits on some of the facets of football from yesteryear.

Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen. Darin, thank you. Looking forward to chatting and judging you based on the quality of the questions that you asked this episode.

Oh my gosh. Okay, we're back. I will be the judge.

Folks, we are back to the dad joke segues. We've had some quizzes lately and some factoids, but now we are back to Tim Brown and his finest segueing into an article that you wrote not too long ago, titled Judging Walter Steffen's Coaching Career. So Walter Steffen is an interesting figure indeed in football history.

So what do you get on him, Tim? Yeah, so, you know, you and I were talking a little bit before we started the episode proper. And, you know, Steffen is just one of these guys, and it's a name that I kept coming across over and over again. And I was just like, sometimes I got to, you know, kind of look into this guy and figure out what he was about.

And he turned out to just be this really interesting character that just is impossible to imagine today. Right? I mean, he just lived a life that no one can live anymore, not at the major college level.

You could do it at D3, which is probably the right situation, but in high schools, you know, but not at the major college level. So, I mean, you know, he really, you know, kind of a classic guy.

He grew up in Chicago, you know, 1880s, 1890s. He ends up at the University of Chicago as a freshman in the fall of 1905. So he's playing for, you know, the famous Alonzo Stagg.

So, he's on, you know, 1905, Chicago was national champs. So, he's in a pretty major deal as far as, you know, football is concerned. In 1906, Walter Eckersall was the All-American quarterback at Chicago.

So, Steffen is the, you know, second fiddle running at halfback. But then Eckersall graduates, if he graduated. He wasn't much of a student, but anyways, he leaves.

Steffen became a quarterback in his last two years, and he became an All-American quarterback as well. So, and this is him carrying the ball back here. I see the only guy without any head protection.

Yeah, and so, I may actually have the wrong image up there. Anyways, but he played in that era. So, Steffen is hanging out around Chicago.

He goes, he was unlike Eckersall. He was an excellent student and went to the University of Chicago Law School. While he's going to law school, he assists Stagg on the football team.

And so, and then, you know, he graduated from law school and worked a couple of years in the law. And, you know, it's hard to trace whether he was, you know, he may have assisted with some schools. I know he did some refereeing and things like that, which was pretty typical of the time.

But in 1914, he became the head coach at Carnegie Tech in Pittsburgh. And so, you know, he was living in Chicago. And back then, it was not uncommon at all.

There were a lot of coaches who would live in one city for nine months of the year, and then they'd go coach wherever they were coaching for the other three. And so, that's what he did. So, he hadn't, you know, he was a first; he was a Chicago alderman for a while.

He, you know, worked in different government capacities, you know, in law. And then, so, you know, he basically, in the fall, he would, he would basically move to Pittsburgh to run the team. And then, you know, probably maintain some level of practice.

But basically, you know, he'd shut down whatever his business was, you know, for those three months, and then return and, you know, work as a lawyer the rest of the year. So, in 1922, he became a Cook County judge and Chicago's in Cook County. So, what he did was he couldn't just go to Pittsburgh for three months of the year.

So, he basically stayed in Chicago, and then he would travel on the weekend to Pittsburgh if it was a home game or wherever they were playing. You know, whoever they were playing, he traveled to the game. And then there was a guy who was a former Carnegie player, I believe, but there was a guy who basically ran the show during the week, a real trusted assistant. So, and all the time that he was there, he was upgrading the schedule.

So, Carnegie had been playing, you know, kind of the smaller schools, schools are now, you know, D3 schools in, you know, Western Pennsylvania, Eastern Ohio, you know, that kind of type of school. But while he was there, he started upgrading. And so, they're playing, you know, basically a national schedule, but more, you know, like a Midwestern, you know, Midwestern schedule, mostly against, or at least a mix of kind of the smaller schools, like a lot of teams did.

And then they were playing, you know, some top talent. So, just as an example, in 26, they opened the season, they beat, you know, three lesser teams, and then they go on a run, and they beat Pitt, who has had been national champs a bunch of times by then. Detroit, who was playing, you know, pretty solid football.

West Virginia, who used to kind of not be very good, but by then was starting to, you know, come around to be a pretty good football team. And then they went, they hosted and beat a team called Notre Dame, was being coached by Newt Rockne at the time. But this is 1926.

And that was the year that, you know, Rockne and Notre Dame won the 1925 national title. So, they were big stuff. However, in 1926, Soldier Field opened in Chicago.

And that game, the stadium opened with the Army-Navy game. Well, Rockne was in Chicago for that game, while his team was in Pittsburgh, playing Carnegie Tech. And Carnegie Tech beat them.

Which was like, it was a massive, you know, massive story. I mean, the only thing that, so the Army-Navy game was just a huge story in the papers, you know, nationwide. Second to that was the fact that Carnegie Tech had beaten Notre Dame, you know, reigning national champs.

You know, which nobody had expected. So, then, to show that that wasn't just a total fluke, in 1928, Carnegie Tech went to Notre Dame. So, they go to South Bend.

And they beat Notre Dame there. So, that was Notre Dame's first loss in South Bend under Rockne. It also made Carnegie Tech and Stephan the only team or coach to beat Notre Dame twice, while Rockne was the head coach.

Other than Nebraska, under Fred Dawson, did it twice. And then Howard Jones beat Rockne at Notre Dame when he was coaching Iowa, and then twice when he was coaching USC. So, Howard Jones has won up on Walter Stephan.

But nevertheless, I mean, so it's one of these things like you hear nowadays, well, Carnegie Tech, and now it's Carnegie Mellon because, you know, the schools merged. But and you think, ah, you know, that's not big-time football. Well, it was, you know, if you beat the reigning national champ, you're playing pretty good ball, right?

And then when you beat him two years later, you're still playing pretty, pretty good ball. So, he ended up from 1922 through the 1932 season, he basically, they used to call him the commuter coach, living in Chicago, you know, take the train into whatever city they were playing in, coach him game day, and then head back, you know. And so, you know, how they kept it, how he kept in touch with the assistant who was running things day to day.

I don't know, but, you know, they did very, very well. Just, you know, another thing that was kind of fun is he was the guy who gets primarily credited with inventing the spinner play. So, you know, anybody listening, you've seen these, if you've watched any old-time football film, you've seen the spinner, where a lot of times it'll, the ball might get hiked to a quarterback, or a fullback, who's, you know, kind of, who basically catches the ball, like literally does a 360 in place, as they're faking handoffs to different people.

And then they might, you know, kind of do like a QB sort of draw, or they might run left or right, or, you know, or handoff. So, the spinner was a huge thing starting in the mid-20s when he first, you know, implemented it. And it remained in place, you know, probably mid-30s when it was dying out.

However, there are a couple of other little factoids about the spinner, such as that he first used it in 1924. And the guy who was, who ran that play, it was a guy named Dick, I've never been sure of his name, I think it's Bede, but maybe it's Bede. And he was the guy who became the Youngstown State coach.

And he's the guy who invented football's penalty flag when he was coaching Youngstown. And then people who aren't that into, you know, older football stuff, maybe recognize the fact that one of his last quarterbacks, or perhaps the last quarterback that he coached at Youngstown, was a guy named Ron Jaworski. So, anyway, that's the little tidbit on that one.

But, so then, you know, he ends up 1932, announces he's going to retire, he just can't, you know, he's starting to get a little ill, I guess, and just couldn't keep up the pace. And so, you know, he ended up with an 88-53-9 record. So, you know.

Respectable. Yeah, especially at a school like that and playing the kind of schools that he played. And then, so, 32, if people remember from an episode or two ago, that's the year Amos Alonzo Stagg is let go at Chicago.

So, he's, you know, Stefan's retiring from Carnegie Tech. So, basically, he and Fritz Kreisler were the guys everybody said, oh, they're going to use one of these, they're going to name one of these guys to replace Stagg. And instead, they brought in Clark Shaughnessy from Tulane, who was, you know, kind of the father of the modern T formation.

So, and then, unfortunately, you know, poor health, he passed away in 1937. So, he didn't get to live the good, long life that Stagg lived. But, you know, he may have been one of the last of the, you know, he was certainly one of the last of these part-time coaches at a, you know, in a major school environment at the time.

You know, probably at the time, they would have been like a G5-ish or G3 or whatever. However, there are more. You know, that level of football. And here he's a judge in Chicago, you know, lawyer, that's what he does.

You know, a couple of episodes ago, I mentioned Clarence Spears, who's a physician. There were a bunch of guys like that, you know, but he was one of the last ones who was, you know, still running a major program. And then in his case, especially, he wasn't even there, you know, during the season, you know, the commuter coach.

So, really an interesting, you know, days gone by, you know, kind of deal, yeah, just when we think that our lives are busy dealing with football on a daily basis, you have guys like him and, you know, the Paw Porners and Fielding Yost that sometimes coach multiple teams in a season and these commuter coaches and did some other full-time jobs. So, yeah, it's amazing to think about that era of football.

Yeah, I think he had five kids, too. So, you know, he was a busy man. Well, at least the chores got done at home.

I didn't have to do them all. So, that's good. Tim that is some great stuff that, you know, is a gentleman that we probably don't hear about very many places in this day and age.

And it's great to have some preservation of Mr. Stephan and his accomplishments and some of the things that he did, you know, beating Notre Dame twice and, you know, all the other things that he did, which is amazing. So, you have things like this all the time going on on footballarchaeology.com, and you share them in some little bite-sized chunks. So, maybe you could explain that to everybody and how they can enjoy it.

Sure. Just go to footballarchaeology.com, and, you know, you can subscribe. You'll get an email every time a new article is posted.

Otherwise, follow me on Twitter, on the Substack app or on threads, or just go out to Football Archaeology, you know, kind of whenever you please and see what some of the new articles are out there or check out the archives. There's a search function. Just put in a topic and see if there's something out there.

Well, sir, we thank you once again for helping us understand football of yesteryear and how it became the mega game that it is today that everybody enjoys. And it's these little pieces getting put together in a history that really make it enjoyable. And we thank you for sharing it again and we'd love to talk to you again next week.

Very good. Thank you, sir.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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The timing of a football game has changed with the technologies available to fields of different eras. Timothy P. Brown takes us to early football before artificial light was used to illuminate the Gridiron. How did this affect the timing of the games? Tim lays it out for us in this podcast episode.

Here is the link for Tim's original TidBit House of the Setting Sun.

-Transcription of House of Setting Sun with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to Tuesday, FootballArcheology.com day. We have Timothy P. Brown, the founder of FootballArcheology.com joining us as he does each and every week to talk about one of his famous tidbits. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Darin, good to see you, see your smiling face. It is about time.

About time. Yeah, great segue. Your segue-isms are getting better and better each and every time.

I am upping segue game. The dad jokes are a-flying, that's for sure. But Tim, now that you set it up, you have an interesting article from back in September that maybe back in September didn't mean as much as it does this time of year as we're getting closer to the winter season.

Sun going down and how it affected the timing of games. And I'll let you take it from there and tell us all about your tidbit. Yeah, so actually, the interesting thing is there is a, I will just say, an unidentified reader.

I can't say who that is unless the reader gives permission. The reader gives you permission, Tim. Go ahead.

Oh, OK. So, one time, Darin asked me. Why is it always me? So, yeah, so just, you know, it's like anything else.

You know, you question, you go like, how did this work? So, as he was doing his own research on some things, he kept on seeing in the old newspapers. You know, 1800s and early, you know, 1900s. Oftentimes, the box score would have a little thing right at the bottom of the box, and it would say, you know, time of halves or time of quarters.

It would say 15 minutes, 15 and 10, or something like that. And so, and then typically, if there was a short quarter or a short half, it was the second half. So, you know, the question is basically, well, why the heck did they do that? Why did they shorten games? And so sometimes that happened because one team was getting blown out, but that was not generally the reason, you know, so even in tight games, it wasn't unusual to shorten, shorten a quarter or a half.

And so, you know, when I wrote it, I kind of used the, you know, the old terminology of de jure versus de facto. So de jure means, you know, by the rule or by the law, whereas de facto is in practice. Right.

And so when football first started, when we first brought it in, you know, when we were playing rugby. Football was just one of those stew of games that came out of, you know, 18th-century England and the norm was to play 45-minute halves. And so soccer still plays 45-minute halves, and rugby still plays 45-minute halves.

And when football got started here, we were playing 45-minute halves even though there was nothing in the rules that said that's how long it was. You know, the original football rules don't mention how long a game is supposed to last, but everybody knew it was 45 minutes. So that's what you did.

When football kind of, you know, as partly safety measures, you know, they were trying to give people rest and just reduce the amount of time that they're on the field. You know, football started, it went to 45 minutes and then 35 and then 30. And it's perhaps so.

Now, another tradition that was quite common was that, a lot of times, games started at about 2 o'clock or 2:30 in the afternoon. And so part of that was, you know, you had a lot of people, you know, fans who, you know, if they were factory people, they and, you know, clerks and whatnot, they work six days a week, as did their bosses. And if they were rural folks, well, farm chores have to be done.

You know, if you got a dairy herd, well, guess what you're doing every day. You know, so just from a lifestyle standpoint, a lot of people had things to do in the morning. On top of that, a lot of teams didn't have the budget to send their team to an away game and stay overnight.

So, you know, they would want to be able to take the train in the morning of the game, show up, play the game, turn around, and get home. And so not only did that mean they had to schedule a game a little bit later, but then there were times where they needed to, you know, the only way they would get home and make their connections that night was to be at the train station at, you know, 430 and or, you know, five o'clock or whatever it was. So, you know, for a combination of reasons, they ended up needing to cut games short.

And, you know, eventually the the rule makers, you know, it was kind of a it was kind of an understood thing. It wasn't. Again, it's one of those traditions.

It was, you know, in fact, people cut games short, even though the rules didn't say, you know, didn't allow it. But everybody did it. Right.

So then we end up in a situation where, you know, during World War One, the government instituted light savings time, daylight saving, no S on that, daylight saving time. And so that came into effect in 1918. And so that was the first time that anybody had experienced that, at least, you know, in the US.

So you just kind of put yourself. I mean, we know what happens when daylight saving kicks in. But they just didn't anticipate it.

So there were teams that showed up at practice on Monday afternoon, right after daylight saving kicked in for the first time. And it was dark, you know. And so it's just one of those things where, you know, and then obviously that applied on Saturdays, too, because, you know, it gets dark on game day just as much as it does on practice.

But, you know, and in the tidbit, there's a discussion of like. And the USC and somebody, you know, playing in a game, and it's just like nobody could see by the end of the game; it was just so dark. And it's it's one of those things, you know, we take for granted that everybody's going to have lights.

Well, guess what? Very few places had lights. And if they did, it was jerry-rigged like the Navy used naval searchlights to light up the field for practice, you know. And, you know, so you have examples like that.

And that's that's one. I mean, some people had used them earlier, but they were painted white balls and yellow balls that came in right around. Yeah, that really became popular around that time.

That's when you start seeing them showing up in sporting goods catalogs. And it's really, you know, like. I know it's one of these things depending on where you have lived in the US; if you have not moved around a fair amount, you don't realize how much where you are in the time zone from an east, west, and north-south standpoint.

You don't realize how much impact that can have on how dark it gets early. So Chicago is right on the east side of the central island. So it's like it's getting dark where it's like I'm in Detroit.

So, you know, still across the state, but if you're on the west side of Michigan, you know, it's light in the summer. It's like until.

You know, 10, 10 o'clock, you know, and, you know, beyond where it's like it's the same thing in Chicago, but it's nine o'clock. Right. So anyway, I mean, it's just one of those things you just and if you're northern, you know, then it's great in the summer, but then it gets darker early if you're further up north, because that whole sun, you know, the earth rotates and it tilts and not enough.

So anyway, it's just one of those things you don't think about, but like. Daylight saving was a big story in 1918. So then, because of that, in 1922, they formalized the rule that said at halftime, the referee could approach the the two team captains and ask if they wanted to shorten the halves.

And then then they they'll do so as needed. And whether whether that's because of the lighting or the one team getting blown out or whatever. Basically, they had they had the chance to do that.

Yeah, it's just thank God that the football didn't adopt what soccer does now with, you know, you have the two 45-minute halves, and then we're going to just kind of arbitrarily throw some time on at the end, you know, just and not tell anybody, you know, how much time is left. Just, you know, whatever that drives me crazy. Drives me nuts, you know, that they don't have that public with how much time is going on there.

But yeah, very interesting stuff, Tim. And I'm glad you mean you really cleared up mine because I kept seeing this, you know, you'd have like a 25-minute first half and, you know, something like 10 minutes for the second half. I'm like, why are they doing that? You know, you have a 13-to-nothing game.

You know, it's still still a ball game. You know, it's just driving me crazy. So, I'm glad you could clear that up for me and the listener.

So that's that's great. So, yeah, again, it's just one of those things you just don't even think about because, you know, basically, there are very few people living today if there's anybody, you know, that that's that, you know when Daylight Savings first showed up. So.

Yeah, crazy. And there are probably more people who see live games under the lights, you know, at your local high school than you do in the daytime anyway nowadays. So we're so used to the lights.

It's taken for granted, I guess. Yeah, but Tim, you have interesting items like this each and every day on your tidbits and people really love reading them. And maybe there's some listeners out there that aren't familiar with how to reach you and get ahold of your tidbits.

So maybe you could help them out with some information. Yeah, so the easiest and best thing is just to hit my website, footballarchaeology.com. In order to find it, you have to put the WWW in front of it. And then, you know, you can every, you know, every story gives you the opportunity to subscribe.

You can subscribe for free. And then, as a result, you'll get an email every night in your inbox. And, you know, some people let them pile up, and they'll send it to you.

I know every Monday morning, I get a bunch of hits on my site because people who send them to their work address, you know, don't look at them until Monday morning. So anyways, and then you can also you can follow me on Twitter, on threads or simply, you know, or follow me within the within the Substack app. And so kind of whichever flavor works for you, have at it.

All right. Well, he is Timothy P. Brown, footballarchaeology.com. The links to Tim's site and to the tidbit are in the podcast show notes. You want to enjoy that, you know, the images and some of the great writing that Tim does there and some of those other tidbits.

You have links to get to it that way, too. So, Tim, thanks a lot for joining us again and sharing. And we will talk to you again next week.

Very good. Thank you, Darin.

-Frequently Asked Questions About Football Field Equipment

-Who invented the scoreboard? A man named Arthur Irwin came up with the concept of the modern scoreboard for baseball and then created a modified version for other sports like football. Learn more about Irwin and his design in this conversation Arthur Irwin's Scoreboard.

-Where did the term "Visitors" come from on the scoreboard? A Harvard professor was observing the scoreboard in the newly built Harvard Stadium shortly after its construction in 1903, when it bothered him that the word "Opponents" was on the score column to identify the guests of the Crimson. He found it offensive so he asked for a revision. Learn more about this story in this conversation Opponents Versus Visitors on the Scoreboard.

-How was time kept in a football game before the scoreboard clocks existed? Officials would use hand held and later wristwatches to time the events. Check out this article on the evolution of the game clock.

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When did American Football actually first start being played? Timothy P. Brown answers the question of when football began, dispelling many of the mainstream experts' erroneous preconceptions.

While there's no single definitive date for the birth of American football, several key events and influences mark its evolution from a blend of other sports to the game we know today:

-1869: The first intercollegiate game played between Rutgers and Princeton using rules heavily influenced by soccer. This is often cited as the "official" birth of American football. It was more like soccer than anything else, though.

-1876: The Intercollegiate Football Association (IFA) is formed, standardizing rules and fostering the development of a more unified game.

-1880s: Walter Camp, known as the "Father of American Football," introduces key rule changes like the line of scrimmage, the snap, and the forward pass, shaping the game into its modern form.

-1892: The first professional game is played between the Allegheny Athletic Association and the Pittsburgh Athletic Club.

-1906: The forward pass is legalized, revolutionizing the game and opening up possibilities for aerial attacks.

-Transcribed Conversation of When Football Started with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes, PigskinDispatch.com. And once again, it's Tuesday. We're going to have another great chat with football archaeology's Timothy P. Brown.

Tim, welcome back. And glad you're here tonight.

Thank you, Darin. I'm glad to be here myself. It's always a good thing, isn't it? Yeah, you know, I'm starting to get to the age where it becomes dope. But I know that I am. Here I am.

I know the feeling. Well, we're certainly glad you're here tonight.

And we're even more happy that you're here to talk a little bit about football history from one of your recent tidbits. And you've got one that really caught my eye, and I think it would be very interesting to all listeners interested in football history. And that's when did the football history really begin? When did the start of football happen? Yeah.

So, you know, I wrote that piece. It was actually the anniversary, the first anniversary of today's tidbits. So that's why I chose that topic to say, OK, what better thing to talk about than where did football begin? And so, you know, the received wisdom would be that football began with the games between Rutgers and Princeton in 1869.

So and then, but you kind of have to go like, well, why do we consider that to be the first football game? What was it about those two games that made it the start of football? And for me, when I look at it, I go, well, though that wasn't the start of football, I don't, you know, I mean, yes. You know, I wrote a book about the hundred first hundred first 50 years of football, and I based it off the ninth or 1869 date. So, you know, I'm part of the problem, but I'm trying to make amends.

So they've got everybody drinking that Kool-Aid. That's right. That's right.

You know, so but, you know, it really kind of comes back to, you know, what was going on back then and, you know, regardless of what was happening. How would you judge? You know, what is the basis of when a new game begins? It's kind of like the difficulty biologists get into in terms of evolution. When does a new species begin? You know, what came first, the chicken or the chicken or the egg? But in this case, I mean, for me, you know, I look at at that the 1869 games.

And it was a, you know, negotiated rule, but it mostly resembled association football or what we call soccer. You know, you couldn't carry the ball. It was a round ball.

There were 25 players per side, and, you know, there were other things going on. So, like, was that really football? I mean, it was an intercollegiate game between two schools, but those had happened before, too. So, you know, in my mind, the main reason it's considered the start of football is that Park H. Davis went to Princeton, whatever, you know, 25 years later than that.

And he is the first football historian. And he decided that that was the first that was the start of football. And so, therefore, you know, given the influence that he has had on football history, that's what it is, you know, and then nobody ever doubts that.

I mean, a lot of other people have, but. And I just look at it and say, OK, so that's not good enough. You know, what would mark the start of the game of football? And for me, I think of it as when did when did football break away from.

Soccer or rugby, it's kind of two, you know, origin, you know, origin games, but it wasn't a wasn't a soccer game. So I'm then saying, OK, get rid of soccer. When did football move away from rugby? And for me, it's it's the 1876 meeting where the IFA set up a new set of rules.

So. The IFA, the Intercollegiate Football Association, was founded three years earlier, but they adopted soccer, you know, I mean, they didn't adopt this specific set of rules; they just said, hey, we're going to follow the association game rules from London. So they were just playing soccer.

Then, the next year, Harvard plays McGill. First in a Boston rules game, then in a rugby game, and they end up saying, hey, we like this rugby game. So they start playing it, and then they play Yale the next year in what they call the concessionary rules game, which is a mix of, you know, an adapted rugby game.

And then in 76, they adopt what are now the basis of they adopted the IFA rules, which is the basis of football. And then. You know, from there, you can trace.

You know, those rules got adopted and then adapted year after year after year, and there's a continuous line of football rules that come from that original 1876 set that are now the rules we play under today, you know, and in the 1890s and early 1900s, there were multiple rules committees, and there were some conflicts because one group didn't like the other. But at the end of the day, you know, all of the all those committees all use, you know, the preceding rules that had come from 1876. So, for me, I look at it as, hey, they created a new set of rules, and they only made a couple of changes from the rugby rules of the day, but they took a different path.

Rugby then went on and made all kinds of changes to their game. You know, so the rugby game of 1876 is not the game that's played today. They made a lot of changes, too.

But, you know, our football took a different path. And, you know, it's kind of like, you know, maybe anybody who's, you know, Catholic or Lutheran or maybe, you know, Episcopalian, something like that, where there's this whole succession of bishops, you know, from Peter all on down finds that logic attractive, you know, or understands that logic. But it's, yeah, there's a succession from here, you know, from a starting point to now.

And that's kind of the way I see the IFA rules. It was a starting point for football. Let me entertain you.

Oh, wait, you're not going to argue with me, are you? No, I'm not going to argue. I'm just going to propose something to you. All right.

I totally agree with you. The 1869 Princeton Rutgers game. And I agree with your whole theory on Park H. Davis having the influence on it.

Of course, Park H. Davis, in that 1911 book, also had biblical references to football, Roman, and Greek. And he had a bunch of ancient societies football. So the people really hung on to the Princeton Rutgers game.

But I agree with you. Let's take that out of the equation. I don't know.

I mean, I think the IFA rules were important to the development of football. But I think the 1880 rules meeting when Walter Camp proposed the line of scrimmage in the center and the quarterback followed through, players were 11 aside. That was sort of when that got sort of hammered in stone.

And I almost wonder, could we not consider that the birth of American football? 1880. Well, yeah. So, I mean, by your logic, I could argue that 1906 is the birth because that's when the forward pass came in.

So, I mean, you're totally right that 1880 was a big deal. 1884 was a big deal. The whole 1906 to 1912 period was a big deal.

But I would just always go back to the fact that 1876, the rules that they modified and made some like line of scrimmage and things like that in possession in the 1880 or early 80s, those still, they were modifying the rules that they set in 1876. So, it was. I've posted this on an earlier tidbit, but if you go to the Canadian Football Research Association site, they have an 1873 set of rules that they adopted, which are almost word for word, the ones that were the rugby rules at the time and that the Americans then adapted. So, but for me, it's just, they formally said, these are the rules we are going to play under.

The game has been played under those rules since then, subject to annual changes. But that's the point when they said, here's, we're going to play this new game. In fact, in the first half or most of the season of 1876, they played under the kind of a mixture of rules, but the games played after that meeting followed the 1876 rules.

And so, you're saying that because of the standardized rules that were adopted widespread, that's OK. I'm basing it more on 1880 is when American football shot off of rugby and became basically a different game. That's scrimmage from scrummage thing.

That's why I said, but I will, you know, defend what you say to the hilt because that's your right. The standard rules came out, and that's the derivative of what American football came out of. So, yeah.

And I mean, there's lots of things like, you know, the scrimmage thing that was going on before 1876. And I mean, it was just a terminology difference. They were using scrimmage and scrimmage in the UK and here.

So, you know, now the difference is obviously in 1880, you know, you had what we now really consider a scrimmage. So, controlled possession of the ball for multiple downs, right? So, you know, so you retain possession. It wasn't the toss the ball, you know, in the middle kind of thing.

But, you know, I guess I view that as just one rule to change the game, but there have been hundreds and thousands of rule changes. And while I consider that one of the top 11 changes, it's just one of the top 11. Yeah.

But I guess at the end of the day, if you look at those three games that were association football, rugby, American football, they're, you know, probably the three of the most successful athletic ventures of organized sports in the world that has popularity right now. You know, they're definitely in the probably top five. I reached back and grabbed a book that I still hadn't finished, but it was by a guy named Tony Collins.

He's a professor in the UK. The book is called How Football Began. And he basically, you know, goes back to the stew of games that was going on in the UK.

And, you know, I think sometimes we have this impression, or at least I always, you know, used to have the impression that, well, they just had, you know, they just had a couple of different versions. But in fact, you know, in the UK, they had a bunch of different versions of football, and then they kind of started consolidating, and you got into an amateur and professional differences, which is, you know, we're like rugby union and, you know, rugby, you know, anyways. Anyway, it's a really interesting book, and it gets into Australian rules and other things.

So it's just, you know, he kind of goes from where everything was muddled together to how it started breaking off. So it's really a fun read. If somebody's interested in period football, I would say definitely grab that one.

But it's really interesting. Well, Tim, a great subject, great discussion. Really appreciate you being able to talk about that.

Why don't you share with the audience where they can get information like your tidbits that this came out of on a daily basis? Yeah, it's very simple. I've got a site on the Substack platform, but it's just footballarchaeology.com. So you just go on and check out an article and there's a sign up process that you go through. And so you subscribe for free and then you'll get an email every day.

In your inbox is whatever that day's article is. Other people subscribe on Twitter. But if you're interested enough, I'd say just subscribe to the site.

And I have some people that read 10 articles in a row and they just store them up when they're flying or whatever it is. But other people read stuff every day. So either way, do what you want.

All right. Excellent. It's a great investment of time, whether you do it daily or build up 10 of them.

It's a great read and something different every day. And I highly recommend it. Tim Brown of footballarchaeology.com. Thank you very much for joining us.

And we'll talk to you again next week. Thank you, sir. Enjoyed it as always.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Knockoffs and copy cat manufacturing are each nefarious elements of open Capitalism and industry. There have even been many times that football equipment and ideas have been copied and sold.

Timothy Brown examines some cases of Bootleg footballs,on a recent Tidbit he wrote on his Football Archaeology website, It all comes from his original article titled: Bootleg Footballs and Changing Specifications, concerning the 1925-1926 GoldSmith catalog and the "Slim Jim" ball. Tim shared the story with us on the podcast.

-Transcription of Bootleged Footballs with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to the portal that we're going to go back in time and look at some great football archaeology, some great old stuff that our friend Timothy P. Brown of FootballArchaeology.com is going to share with us from one of his recent tidbits. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Darin, thank you. Looking forward to chatting about bootleg footballs. It's kind of an interesting idea or issue. Everybody talks about bootlegs, but this is a different deal.

These are bootleg footballs. When I first saw that, I was picturing a football full of illegal bathtub gin back in the prohibition days, but after I read it, I was straightened out right away. Sorry, the way my mind works, but why don't you explain to us the story of bootleg footballs? Yeah, well, so just following up on your comment, so the bootleg initially, the first bootleg was Pop Warner at Stanford.

He had a fake, so he basically ran a fake Statue of Liberty and the fullback because he was running a double wing at the time with a fullback getting a direct snap. He faked the Statue of Liberty to the wing coming around from right to left, and then the fullback ran to the right, and everybody went with the, you know, chased the right wing who was running to the left, and he just, the fullback ran into the end zone. So, that's where the original bootleg came from, and it had, you know, the name came from bootleg gin, bootleg rum, you know, so it was prohibition time, and you know, so that's where the name originates.

So, it's the idea of fake and illegal and inappropriate, and so during the same era, one of the things that was happening to teams were, you know, some teams were choosing to pass more often than others, and so some of the, you know, back then there were lots of different companies manufacturing footballs, and so some of those manufacturers began making balls that were, you know, the ball had changed, I think it was 1912, maybe I'm off on that, but, you know, somewhere in that area, the ball had been slimmed down from the big fat rugby ball. So, it had been slimmed down, but it was still bigger than what we're used to today, so it's remained difficult to throw. Typically, only guys with big hands could really throw it effectively, and so they, some of the manufacturers, started producing slimmer balls, slimmer footballs that didn't really meet the game specifications, because the game, you know, by then they had specified it's got to be, you know, you know, there was tolerance, but it had to be this much around this length, and so they started producing these balls, and obviously, if you were a running team, you looked at the slim balls of the, what is this doing here on the field, because I don't need it, you know, my team is going to run the ball, we're not going to go crazy and pass it 12 times a game like some of these passing teams.

So, you know, they, you know, it became a controversy, and so, you know, it kind of went back and forth for a while, and then eventually the, you know, the things, they changed the rules basically in 1934 to make, to change the regulations on the ball specifications, so the ball would be about an inch thinner around the girth, but, you know, so one of the things that, you know, sometimes it doesn't seem to make as big a difference, but, you know, you know, you have to realize that the ball in the night before the mid-1920s was not only a bigger, fatter ball, but it's kind of a different ball too, and by that I mean that at that, until the mid-20s, when they, when somebody invented the internal valves, if the ball deflated, and they did so regularly, because they just didn't have the quality control on these rubber bladders that were inside the ball, when the ball deflated, you had to unlace the ball, pull the bladder out, inflate it, much like you would a balloon, I mean, there was like a nipple kind of thing sticking off from the bladder, and you inflated that, and then you tied it off to keep the air inside the bladder, and then you stuffed it back inside the ball, and then you took this leather lacing that was comparable to the lacing, you know, any baseball glove today, you know, it's a flexible lacing, and you weave it in and out with the different fingers, and you know, the, but you know, so that's basically what the lacing was on a football back then, you know, now it's this really hard, it's polyvinyl chloride, this hard plastic, it's stuff we make plumbing pipes out of, you know, that's a stiff material, and so, but back then, it was the same laces that were on a foot, you know, in a baseball glove, right, and so it was fairly flexible, and it could only be as tight, the lacing on a football was only as tight as the guy who tied it together when they reinflated it, so, you know, quality control and standardization just weren't part of that picture, you know, at the time, so it's just one of those things where, you know, we kind of, it's easy to lose sight of the difference at the time, but so, you know, the ability for a quarterback to throw that, you know, to throw a spiral and flick their wrist, you know, and, you know, flick it over to get a nice tight spiral, it was just much harder to do, because these laces barely stuck up over the leather on the surface of the ball, right, and so once they, once it had the internal valve, and that became, you know, the late, the second half of the 20s was kind of a transition period where some balls had it and some didn't, but when they, you know, if you think about a football now in lacing, they, there's the laces that go, I'll call them, you know, perpendicular to the length of the ball, right, but then there's two laces that are underneath those perpendicular laces that kind of go back and forth, right, does that make sense? I don't know if you can picture that, but so under, so putting the lacing underneath the perpendicular laces raised the profile above the surface of the ball, and because they no longer had to replace the ball, they could make that lacing stiffer, even before they used plastics, they could make the lacing stiffer, and therefore, it was easier for the quarterback to grip the ball, to throw a spiral, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, so anyways, I mean, it's one of these things where there's a lot of parts of football blocking, you know, what we call blocking now was interference originally, that was illegal, and then guys started doing it, and they didn't call it, so then it became part of the game. The bootleg footballs, people started using them, they were illegal, but they kind of let it go, and then eventually, they changed the rules to reflect that, right, so there's a lot of parts of football where people did stuff that was against the rules or against the sportsmanship standards of the time, and eventually, people kind of said, oh, yeah, let's just let that go, and it became part of the rules, so bootleg footballs are the reason people throw long, tight spirals 60, 70 yards downfield nowadays. Hey, that, you know, fascinating stuff, your story of you telling us, you know, with the vulcanized rubber bladders, you know, pulling those out and blowing them up, it took me back to some things I read, I believe, from the rugby days, where they still used an actual pig's bladder, and the poor soul that had to unlace it and blow up that rotting pig's bladder, put their lips on that and blow up the ball, that poor sucker had to be the worst job you could have, I think, on a football field.

Well, and, you know, I mean, talk about the pig's bladder, but the, you know, a lot of people think that the reason football is played in the fall is because, you know, people had piglets that they raised all summer, you know, spring and all summer long, and then they slaughtered them in the fall, and what comes along with slaughtering a pig? Well, you have pig's bladders available all of a celebration. They have this kicking game where you try to kick this pig's bladder from your town into the next, or your village into the next, and that's where this football kicking game originated. And eventually, people started covering that pig's bladder with a leather cover to make it, you know, more sustainable or, you know, just to last longer.

But, you know, that's the origins of the game, right? So, it's kind of crazy, you know, kind of how it's all evolved. It's like every other technology; things become more uniform and consistent. But, yeah, that's where the game starts.

A lesson within the lesson. That's good stuff. And I'm sealing up my envelope right now from these advertisements for Goldsmith that you have on your website on this post to get my $10 football.

So, the F5 and the X5. So, I'm going to get one of each for ten bucks. Well, hey, you know, one of the images, so, I mean, for those who are just listening and haven't seen the post, this would be a fun one to go look at, just because there's a number of images from period catalogs that show footballs.

And there's one from D&M, which was a big manufacturer supplier at the time. They had a football they called the Slim Jim. And it was slimmer than the standard ball.

And they're advertising. It's right there in their catalog. There's no secret about it.

But it was slimmer than the specifications required it to be. Well, now you're making me hungry for a meat product that comes in plastic now. So, talk about Slim Jim.

Check-in with Nancy Pelosi. I think she's got some. She was eating some, well, you know, long story.

Hey, Tim, this has been another great lesson in helping us to understand the game of football, where it came from some of the intricacies and equipment, and just the history of the game and how the folks before us had to play with less than what we see today on TV and what the players play on a high school level even. We really appreciate you digging up this research and sharing it with us each week and evening. You can read it on your phone or computer.

Tim has a great way of delivering that message. And, Tim, why don't you share the information with us right now? Sure. So, footballarchaeology.com. You can just go out there and click on any link, and all of them are going to provide an opportunity to subscribe.

So, if you want to subscribe, it just guarantees that you get it every day. You don't have to read it every day. You can save them up and read them on the weekend, whatever.

But it'll be delivered to your inbox at 7 o'clock Eastern every night. And then alternatively, you can follow me on Twitter at Football Archaeology. And if you don't like either of those options, just go out and check out Football Archaeology anytime you want.

And you can see the most recent article just listed out there in order of how they were posted. All right. Tim Brown, footballarchaeology.com. Thank you, once again, for sharing these stories and this information.

And we'll talk to you again next week. Very good. Look forward to it, Darin.

Thank you.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Players can tell you that the surface condition of the turf they play on can make all the difference in a game and how they perform. Field conditions are affected by weather, surface, slickness, and even lawn care.

Long before the modern surfaces and machines we see football played on today, grass fields were the only surface that mattered. Have you ever considered how these playing fields were cared for and kept? Our man Timothy P. Brown of Football Archaeology has, and may we hear what he found out.

This discussion originates based on Time's Tidbit post titled: The Wretched Field Conditions of Football's Past - In Pictures.

-Transcription of Football Field Grass Cuts with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to another evening where we get to discuss some football archaeology with the founder of that website, Timothy P. Brown. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Darin, thank you for chatting tonight, as we seem to do every week, every Tuesday. So yeah, looking forward to it. Yeah, I feel very blessed and honored to be able to talk to you every Tuesday and get this information that you share with us.

Just a few months ago, you had a very interesting topic on one of your tidbits about the field maintenance of the grass that was played on. There was no artificial turf; it was all natural grass, and we're very interested to know how they manicured their fields. Well, yeah, so I actually had an earlier one.

I think I probably have a link to it in this particular tidbit but about the terrible field conditions of the past. And so now we've got artificial turf, we've got prescription grass, and most fields have good drainage and watering systems as needed. And there's just other ways.

The fields are so well-maintained. Back in the day, especially in some stadiums that used to get really heavy use, if you just had one game or one weekend where it was rainy, the rest of the season, the whole central portion of the field was just mud or dirt. It just got torn up.

There's no way to avoid it. And that's one of the great benefits of artificial turf, which is that the central part of the field doesn't wear out, so it's between the hash marks. But back in the day, it sure did.

And so that's kind of a lost element of the game, or of the experience, both as fans and especially as players. But so I'm always looking at old yearbooks and other photo sources. And so back in the day, there were certain things going on in the field that you just noticed, and they were just like, what the hell are they doing there? And so obviously, the muddy fields that I just mentioned.

One of the ways that they try to maintain or dry out muddy fields is by tossing sawdust all over the field. And so I've got images, Yale Field, where there's sawdust all over the field. I'm just trying to draw it out or dry it out, I should say. And then they'd sometimes put hay on the field prior to the game, like if it was going to be icy, and then they'd rake it all off, so all kinds of crazy stuff.

So then once that dirt got all, well, once the field became dirt rather than grass, then you see in early pictures where they raked, you see all these lines in the dirt, and it's just because they raked, just to get all the clumps out and all that kind of stuff. And then, when it dried, the whole field was just dusty. So again, I've got a bunch of pictures of guys just stepping on the field, running around, and there are dust clouds falling; they all look like pig pens from the Charlie Brown cartoon.

But the other one that you see from time to time is long grass, which is, you don't see it as much, but there are times where it's like, I've got pictures of placekickers trying to kick off the grass, and it's like, the grass is literally like 12 inches tall. And so it's like, how the heck did they maintain the grass? Then I looked into that. And so initially, I'd have to make sure I pronounce this correctly, but I was asking, how did they keep football fields, baseball fields, parks, and lawns trimmed back in the day? And so the one way that they did it was with a scythe, which is like the Grim Reaper, with that pole.

A sickle type. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

And so, you know, so they had people up there, you know, cutting it that way. But then, you know, by like 1830, somebody came up with a mechanical lawnmower that pretty much, you know, looks like a real, and I mean real meaning R-E-E-L, so real mower that's used today, but obviously very clunky looking. And then, you know, they also had, you know, so there were the hand-pushed versions, and then there were the horse-pulled versions of these real mowers.

But from time to time, they also reverted back to more traditional methods, which was to bring in a flock of sheep, and you'd just put the sheep out there on your football field or your baseball field and let, you know, let them at it. And then you may have some new obstacles to try to avoid while you're playing. Well, you know, and that would make the grass grow.

So, yeah, and so... Nothing like a good turd tackle, that's for sure. Yeah. One of my brothers has a place up in California where, you know, it's basically a winery where the fields were so wet, or everything was so wet because of all the rain they had.

They brought in a bunch of sheep and just let the sheep go up and down between the rows, you know, eat back the grass. But, yeah, so, I mean, so you think about that, and it was even, you know, so for sure, I've got pictures, you know, it included a picture from like 1943 of sheep grazing in the Rose Bowl, trying to keep it back. And so, even like in the 40s, especially, you know, with gas rationing because of the war, you know, we saw a return to sheep grazing on athletic fields just to, you know, to try to keep it trimmed.

But, you know, I mean, there were like New Mexico, Loyola Marymount, places like that also, you know, I've got newspaper articles anyways indicating, you know, in the late 30s, early 40s that they were trimming their grass the old-fashioned way. Hey, just to put a comment, you know, the images that you have, and we have links to them in the show notes here, folks, and on Pigskin Dispatch from the accompanying article for Tim's images. In the image of the sheep on the Rose Bowl field, I think they got the black sheep of every family in that photo because I think there are two that look like they might be lighter color; all the rest are very colored sheep.

So, a lot of black sheep in that family. Well, there was; it may have been the breed because the article mentioned the breed, which, you know, I don't know one. I don't know my sheep breeds; I apologize.

But, so it may be that that was just a function of. Well, luckily for you, we just want to know about your football. We don't need your agricultural knowledge.

I'm not really good at the agricultural side. Now, that same image, the herdsman or the farmer that's caring for these sheep, he must be a pretty popular guy because it looks like he has like a five-gallon bucket of, I'm assuming, water for these dozen or so sheep to all drink out of. So, I'm sure they're very popular guy in the water.

So, I mean, the other thing, he could have had some grain in there. Then, tossing grain into different areas would attract the sheep to mow the whole field. Oh, okay.

Gotcha. I mean, again, I'm guessing this only because I saw a YouTube video of some guy in New Zealand who created a picture of a heart in his field, let the sheep in, you know, he spread grain in the shape of a heart, let the sheep out and they all went, and then sheep formed a heart. So, it is quite an art form to get your sheep to manicure your lawn.

That's right. All right. Well, hey, I'm even more glad this week, and I have to cut the grass with the modern conveniences we have today.

I'm not out there with a bucket throwing grain on my grass with a herd of sheep. So, although we do like those days, those were the days. All right.

I had a little, much harder time in many ways. So, we appreciate those pioneers of early football who took care of the yards that we played in and helped us advance to where we are today. And Tim, you have some very interesting, fascinating pieces of football that even go beyond the game and equipment like this, you know, caring for the field, which is, you know, you have to have a field to play on.

So, it's, you know, it has to be that. And I know one point I was going to bring up, too, is a really interesting study I saw just came out within the last week or so from, I believe, the National Football League on injuries compared on natural grass fields that are played in the league versus the artificial fields. There was a higher injury rate, as this study showed in the 2022 season, where people on artificial fields were injured more often, or more injuries occurred than they did on the grass fields.

And I don't know if you saw that, but it's kind of interesting to go back to old school, possibly. Yeah, I didn't see that. And, you know, I mean, obviously, when artificial turf first came out, it gripped so well that, you know, guys just blew out their knees all the time on that.

And it was like playing on concrete, you know, I mean, I mostly played on natural, you know, I played on one or two artificial turf fields that were fairly early in the development, and it was, you know, it was horrible. But anyways, yeah, I'm actually a little bit surprised by that result, you know, just because, you know, my sense is that the artificial surfaces have come so far. But, you know, there's a certain amount of, you know, there's kind of no going back on some of it, you know, if you're in a dome stadium, you're going to play on artificial turf, right? And then it's, you know, it's one thing to be on turf, you know, it takes, it just takes a lot of money from an ongoing maintenance standpoint to have a really well done natural turf, you know, so if you're the Packers or something like that, okay, you can afford it.

A lot of other places, it's just, you know, so I mean, anyone in the NFL can afford to do it if that's the right thing, right? Yeah, I know at Akershire Stadium, the old Heinz Field in Pittsburgh, they replaced the turf, I think, two or three times during the NFL season. Of course, the Pitt Panthers are playing on that. They have high school games, usually on Thanksgiving weekend.

They have four championship games or five or six now. I think they have levels playing on that field. So it gets tore up that time of year and they, they replace it within a couple of days before the NFL game.

And that's why you see so many famous games played at Pittsburgh stadium where chunks of the field are coming up, or they had a rainy Monday night game in Miami 20 some years ago, where the punter kicked the ball, and it came down point first and stuck right in the middle of the field and some things. Well, you know, that, that actually raises a point. You know, I don't know if the study was able to control for that, but you know, how long was the turf installed? You know, at the time an injury occurred, because, you know, turf that's been in there for months is different than turf that was installed last Monday.

Right. Yeah. I think it's; they just took an aggregate of the 17 games or, I guess, eight and a half games on average on each field and looked around to see how many state injuries happened at that field by the opponents, you know, both teams playing on it.

So I think that's how they studied it. And you know, it's got some, some, you can sling some arrows at it and shoot some holes in it, but it's an interesting study. And one, I know the NFL takes player safety seriously, as they do with most items.

I am so anxious to see where that leads us. Yeah. Interesting stuff.

Tim, your tidbits are, you know, bringing up items like this constantly every single day, sometimes a couple of times a day. Why don't you share with the listeners how they too can share in on all the fun of hearing these? Yeah. So, you know, best way is just to go to my website, footballarchaeology.com, subscribe.

And that by doing that, you'll, you'll get an email every night at like seven o'clock. I may actually push that a little bit later, but anyways, we'll get an email that with, you know, with the story for that, that evening. And, you know, if you, if you don't want the emails, then just, you can follow me on Twitter.

Yeah. So great subject. We really enjoyed having you share your knowledge with us, Tim, and appreciate you.

And we will talk to you again next week. Very good, sir. Look forward to it.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

There was once a power-house football eleven from St. Louis University. It was back in 1906 and these guys were so very good on the gridiron, however a trip to the West Coast tripped them up perhaps from immortal status.

Timothy P Brown of Football Archaeology joined us to tell the saga of this forgotten team and their great run and downfall, and maybe what could have been.

[-Transcribed Conversation with Timothy Brown on St. Louis University’s Trip West
Hello, my football friends. It's Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. Welcome to another Tuesday, when we will visit with our friend Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com to discuss one of his famous tidbits. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.
Darin, seeing and hearing from you in the new year is good.
Looking forward to a great 2024. Yeah, me too. It is a new year, and we're coming out swinging tonight to talk about this great subject matter you have from 100 and almost 120 years ago with a very famous team at a very famous time in football history.
You have it titled your tidbit from July of this year, 2023, St. Louis U's ill-fated trip west. So what can you tell us about St. Louis U and their ill-fated trip? Yeah, so I think one of the things that... I'm always intrigued by stories of teams that have since dropped football or de-emphasized football. And part of what I enjoy about all kinds of history, it doesn't matter what the subject matter is, is the kind of what if things had been turned out differently? What if they'd gone left instead of right? I mean, there are so many things in history that things could have gone differently.
And so I just find that when a school drops the ball, it's like, well, what if they'd done something? What if they'd kept it? What would the world look like now? So St. Louis U, most people don't associate with football, but right after the introduction of the forward pass, they were one of the top teams in the country. They were the first team to throw a forward pass in a regular season game. And that in 1906, they went 11-0.
They had a guy named Eddie Kokums coaching them. He played at Wisconsin and ended up at St. Louis U. He was just ahead of everybody else in terms of thinking about the forward pass. He also had a guy named Bradbury Robinson, who so happened to have learned how to throw an overhand spiral while he was playing at Wisconsin.
And then he transferred down to St. Louis U. And so St. Louis U. creates this offense. And this is just one of these things, it's just like, okay, when they first introduced forward pass, how do you throw the damn ball? And what do pass patterns look like? And what does pass protection look like? It's all that had to be invented. And so, you know, he was way ahead of his time, but their fundamental route was to send four guys out, and they ran button hooks.
When the quarterback was ready to throw the ball, he would yell and hike, and everybody would turn around for the button hook, and the ball would come to one of them, right? And so, I mean, somehow, that was their core pattern, and they ran it over and over again. And, you know, they were successful. They went 11-0.
And I mean, they beat a lot of really good teams. But they were out there in St. Louis, and so, you know, all you snobby people out East like you, you know, weren't paying attention to what was happening out in the great Midwest. So anyway, so then 1907 comes around.
Despite their success, they had only about 16 players on the team. At times, due to injuries and other factors, they'd only have about 13 guys show up for practice. They couldn't even scrimmage.
The other weird thing is that almost all the players on the team were in medical school. So I'm not sure back then, you know, back then, med school and law school were sometimes undergrad and dental school was the same thing. A lot of times, they were undergrad.
I'm not sure. At that point, it probably just dealt with leeches and bloodletting. Yeah, yeah.
So, but you know, you need that. You need that alternative medicine. So, so, so anyways, I mean, it's just an unusual roster and situation, but they still were really good.
They, you know, their first five opponents, they blog what's now Missouri S&T, Southeast Missouri State, Arkansas, Creighton, and Wash U. So then they go to Wabash, who at the time was a really good team. And St. Louis was down a couple of guys, and they ended up losing 11 to 12. And then, the next two weeks, they beat out. They beat Kansas 17, nothing, then Nebraska 34, nothing.
You know, so they ended up finishing seven and one, and they put away their pads and all that stuff. And, you know, the season's over, except then they, that's kind of announced that they're going to be heading out West for a couple of games over the Christmas break. So, and, you know, at the time, no one did that.
They were the fifth team to ever cross the Rockies to play a football game. Chicago did it in 1894, and Carlisle did it twice. Then Michigan went to Pasadena to play the first Rose Bowl in 1902.
So here it's 1907, they're the fifth one to cross the mountains. So they go, they go to play Washington State. And I would just say, you know, since you're a former football official, it sounds from the newspaper reports like the officials weren't all that impartial in some of their calls for the game.
At least that was the St. Louis U perspective. But so they ended up losing the game. And then, then two, then that was Christmas Day.
On New Year's Day, they played a team called Multnomah Athletic Club, which was one of the top teams on the West Coast through World War I. They just had a lot of former college football players. They had a great stadium.
Oregon, Oregon State used to play at Multnomah Stadium well into the 1950s, maybe later than that. Oh, sounds like, you know, St. Louis, you kind of disagreed with some of the officiating that game too. And they lose 11 to six.
So here they went all that way, you know, a couple thousand miles across the country. Took them days to get there and days to get back. And they end up, you know, losing two games.
But you know, great life experience for all the players and all that stuff. So, but it's, you know, so that's just one of those things where, you know, you think about it. Right after, you know, four passes were invented or made legal, St. Louis U is one of the top teams, certainly in the Midwest, if not the country.
And then, you know, Kochems stays on to coach for one more year, and then he leaves and basically, you know, leaves football for the most part. And, you know, St. Louis U basically never achieved the same level of greatness. I think they dropped football in 1949, something like that.
So, I know I wrote this in a different tidbit, but one other, what might have been a kind of story about them was that in 1914, a new graduate from Notre Dame, a guy named Rockne, was planning to go to medical school at St. Louis U and he wanted to help coach football. And the medical people said, no, you can't do that. If you're going to be in med school, you're going to be in med school.
If you want to coach, you can coach, but you can't do both. So, Rockne ends up staying at Notre Dame, and then, you know, we know what happens there. But, you know, you just think about that.
Had Rockne gone to medical school, maybe he just becomes a physician and we never hear the guy's name again. Maybe he coaches and, you know, has similar success. I mean, you got to believe he would have had success at St. Louis U, maybe not the same level, but very similar kinds of schools at the time.
So, you know, maybe today we'd be cheering on the St. Louis U Billikens in major bowl games instead of the Fighting Irish. But, you know, the four horsemen of St. Louis U. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I lived in St. Louis for 14 years, so I'm very familiar with the city, but yeah, it ended, St. Louis really became the prominent soccer, you know, hotbed in the States for decades and decades.
Both St. Louis U and Wash U were big-time soccer programs, you know, and there just was never the same, you know, now like Lindenwood is a D1 program, but, you know, until just the last two, three years, they didn't have D1 football in a city of that size. And they don't have professional football anymore, either. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I'm not sure they ever did. Well, they were in a Super Bowl with the Rams when the Rams were there. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. You're right.
You're right. I was thinking more of the St. Louis football Cardinals. Yeah.
Yeah. So, I went to a few of those games. Yeah.
I'll bet. I'll bet. Well, hey, that's a great story.
And, you know, on a great program that I love rekindling these programs from yesterday, just like you said earlier, and, you know, bringing some remembrance to them and, you know, sharing these memories of them. So really appreciate you doing that, Tim. And you have these tidbits that are coming out, you know, every night and, you know, maybe you could share with the audience how they too can partake in these.
Yeah, it's really simple. The best thing is to go to footballarchaeology.com and subscribe. You can subscribe for free, and then you'll have access to whatever's there.
I also, you know, post everything on threads and on Twitter, both under the football archaeology name. All right. Timothy P. Brown, footballarchaeology.com. We thank you once again for sharing this great story from football of antiquity, and we will talk to you again next week.
Very good. Thank you, sir.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Imagine getting all of your equipment at the beginning of the long football season. Shoulder pads, pants and pads, and of course a helmet. You look and the head piece looks a bit funny... it has no chinstrap. This is how it was in one era of football, and FootballArchaeology.com's Timothy Brown explains.

From Tim's original TidBit article: Football Helmets Without Chin Straps .

Timothy Brown, who runs the website footballarchaeology.org. The two discuss how early football helmets did not have chin straps. Instead, they had laces in the back to tighten around the noggin. These devices were not very effective in keeping the helmet on the player's head.

A company called Goldsmith, which was a major sporting goods manufacturer at the time, tried to fix this problem by creating a helmet with an adjustable back. However, this design did not work well and was soon abandoned.

In the 1970s, helmets with inflatable bladders were introduced. These helmets were more effective in conforming to the player's head, but they were still not as safe as today's helmets with chin straps.

The video concludes by mentioning that Timothy Brown's website, footballarchaeology.com, has more information about the history of football equipment.

-Full Transcript of the Episode on Helmets Without Chinstraps

Darin Hayes:
Welcome to Tuesday. Timothy P. Brown of FootballArchaeology.com is here to tell us a little bit about one of his recent tidbits. Uh, Tim, welcome back to the pig pen.

Timothy Brown:
Darin, thank you. Oh, it was a pleasure to be here and join you as we talk about old stuff, old football stuff.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, most definitely, you had a recent tidbit that really caught my eye when it came out. I actually reread it a few days ago because it's just so fascinating. It's called the football helmet without chin straps, And it's, you know, something kind of peculiar that when we think of the football helmet, the chin straps are almost like an automatic part Of it in our day and age, and so it's very interesting what you wrote about, and I'd love to hear about it here in the podcast.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah. Well, so, you know, it's one of those funny things. Yeah, sometimes I've wondered, you know, how the name came about, like chin strap? I mean, now, chin straps are covering the chin, right? And then they connect up to the helmet with the two points on either side, but back, you know, that's really a post-1940 kind of look. Before that, that headgear, the wrestling-type headgear, and then, after that, you know, what we think of as leather helmets. For a long time, the strap kind of went from the ears and then looped under the jaw, not over the chin. Right? So, but I think they, I think, I think chin straps originated, I believe, on military helmets, and you know, so a lot of times they had them in military hats. So a lot of times they had those little straps, like kind of on the chin, a little bit below the mouth, that kind of thing. That's probably where that where the term came from. But anyway, so, you know, they had those original straps that were kind of elastic or cloth, they weren't, and they could tighten them. But, you know, they certainly weren't as good about, you know, keeping the helmet on the head as today's, you know, two or four-point, you know, chin straps do. Plus, the helmets are just tighter. So, you know, if you've got a leather helmet, you know, it can only conform to the head so much, right? I mean, if it's a little bit bigger, you've got it, you know, just nobody's had it shaped the same way, or no two people's are shaped the same way. So, you know, there's probably some little extra space here, little extra space there, in any given leather helmet. And so, you know, they used to come off. And so, so Goldsmith was, which was, you know, one of the original manufacturers of baseballs. They started back in 1875, and they were a big sporting goods manufacturer, at least till 1940. That's the last catalog I have of theirs. So, I'm not sure exactly how much longer they lasted. But so Goldsmith was trying to fix this problem. How do we keep helmets on? Because these little chin straps don't always work. So what they did was they got rid of the chin strap, which seems kind of dumb. They could have kept him, but they tried to make the size of the helmet adjustable. So they did that by putting it together like a drawstring system at the back of the helmet. And if you think about it, like, you know, we've all seen movies of like a Victorian woman who's getting her corset, you know, adjusted where they're pulling those straps and they're, you know, making her stomach, you know, look or make it look like she's got an 18-inch waist, you know, that kind of thing. So I mean, they basically had a system like that, or at least functionally, that was what it was supposed to do supposed to tighten the base of the helmet around the head. And so, but, you know, the fact of the matter is, it didn't work very well.

Darin Hayes:
You probably needed help getting your helmet on and off every time, I would assume.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, you know, I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah, it could be that. Yeah, you had to, you know, so it's what's funny that you mentioned that it's like, you know, back at that time, players, the front of their football pants, also had those like leather patches, the thighs and well, probably typically twice on the thighs on each thigh. They basically had drawstrings to tighten the thigh or tighten the pants so that they didn't move all around, and then they'd get protected by the thigh pads or the pants. So, you know, they didn't have really good elastic back then. So it's a matter of, you know, pulling laces of one form or another to try to get things to fit. So, you know, somehow, you know, they tried to do that with the helmet. But, you know, it was they were gone from the catalogs in about a year or two. So it tells me the thing just didn't work. The concept made sense. And in fact, you know, in the 70s, when people started, like, I think it was, I believe it was right now that did it first, but you know, they had the bladder helmets, where you pump air into it, and it conforms to your head, whatever the shape of it may be, you know, so they were trying to do that same thing. They just didn't have the means to do it at the time. And so, you know, good idea, bad execution. And so then that just disappeared. But I, you know, I still haven't figured out why you would get rid of the chin strap. So, even if you have this other cool thing going on, why get rid of the chin strap? Because I've never read anything about people being bothered by it, you know, like the nose guards. Yeah, that was big, you know, everybody, nobody liked wearing the nose guard because they had difficulty breathing and that kind of stuff. But chin strap, you know,

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, I mean, it's a natural place to secure because you sort of got that hook shape under your chin. You know, it's a good anchor point to tie it down to your head and get a little tension on there. That's that's weird. Thank you.

Timothy Brown:
So sometimes, you know, some of the stories, I mean, again, I like the stories where, you know, as football evolved, there were all these dead-end paths, right? Just like in, you know, animal species, right? And, you know, so for some of them, the thinking behind the path made sense; they just didn't have the tools, technology, or the right materials to make it happen at the time.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, you, uh, very, very interesting story, but just you describing the back of that helmet and the core whole corset idea, it took me back to some time playing like a junior high ball, you know, we got sort of leftover pants and one year I had drawstring pants for football where you had to tie them up. Like you tie your shoe. What a pain in the ass that was every, every day for practice for game day. It just, especially when you're like, you know, 11, 12 years old, you know, you don't want to take your time to snap pants even, let alone, you know, sit on time and take them up and, and if you didn't tighten them up, then you had, you know, your, your jock and everything else was, you know, flopping, falling all over the place. And it was just a bad, bad design. Whoever designed those pants. I didn't enjoy those.

Timothy Brown:
Yeah, well, and again, it's one of those things that, depending on your age, you may not have as much experience with. But, you know, back in the day, there were a lot of people on the football field with, you know, white athletic tape wrapped around their thighs or around their knees to keep things in place. Right. And so I, you know, I've spotted that kind of thing going on back to the 20s and 30s. So people, you know, even back then, they were tapping the same problem.

Darin Hayes:
Oh, I didn't. I never thought about that. Yeah, I guess I guess you wouldn't be able to do it, too. Then I'm always sitting, sort of thinking like athletic tape and duct tape. You know, the fabric tape is more of a modern invention, but I guess they would have had that back then.

Timothy Brown:
And they had, if you look at the old catalogs, I can't tell you it was the exact same kind of tape, but they had athletic tape and illustrations like Walter Camp, the football guides, they had illustrations of how to tape an ankle, that kind of stuff going back pretty far.

Darin Hayes:
So, yeah, very interesting. Thank God that they have the chin straps, but even with chin straps, and I don't know about you, but when I played early on, I don't even think I saw a four-point chin strap until maybe I was in high school or something, I think it was sort of a, you know, the late seventies type innovation, I think, or at least became popular at the levels I played at then. But you see so many people with the four-point head strap chin straps, and they still come, their helmets still come flying off, especially the NFL level and big-time big-time college; it's unbelievable that those can come off. Cause once you have those helmets on, if they're done rubbery, I mean, it's hard to unsnap them when you do want to take it off, let alone have it come flying off in the middle of the game.

Timothy Brown:
I hate to tell you this, but some of those guys are stronger than you and your buddies were.

Darin Hayes:
I realize I'm still a

Timothy Brown:
has a little bit more force. Yes.

Darin Hayes:
Still, that's a lot of stuff to pop a helmet on us. It's amazing, Tim. That is a great story and a great piece of football history that we, you know, seldom get to appreciate something like that and what the sort of forefathers of football had to go through to do that, and you talk a lot about this kind of items on your website football archaeology calm and want you to tell people a little bit about it and how they can enjoy footballarchaeology.com

Timothy Brown:
So it's footballarchaeology.com. It's a sub-stack website. So, if you're familiar with sub-stack, you can find me there. I also post on Twitter and on threads, but the site itself is a subscription site. If you subscribe for free, you get access now to about a third of the stuff, and with paid subscriptions, which are basically five bucks a month or $50 a year, you have full access to everything, including the archives. So, if that's what you're into, then subscribe away.

Darin Hayes:
Well, excellent job as always, Tim, and if folks, make sure you take advantage of what Tim's saying because there is really a plethora of information on football history. We get to talk a little bit about it, you know, each week, but Tim has so much more in there. I think, what did you say? Do you have over a thousand articles in there right now?

Timothy Brown:
Not quite a thousand, but it's getting close.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, wow. That's uh, you know, four digits there, guys. That's, uh, that's some good stuff to look at football history from different angles. So Tim, we really appreciate you coming on, and we would love to talk to you about more great football history next week. Thank you

Timothy Brown:
Pretty good; look forward to it. Thanks, Darin.

-Frequently Asked Questions

-Who was the first player to wear a football helmet? We have your answer in our in-depth study ofthe first to wear a helmet.

-What is the history of each college team and their helmet designs? Check out many of them with our series College Football helmet history of schools.

-How come some teams have player numbers on their helmets? We asked this question too and had a college football expert historian help divulge helmet numbers history.

-Why do some teams like Michigan and Delaware look so odd and similar? It's really uncanny isn't it that the Wolverines and Blue Hens look the same, check this out for a reason when helmets had wings.

-What do stickers on college football helmets mean? Some of them look really crazy but there is some goos reason for the extra adornments and we have the scoop Why all the stickers on some football helmets?.

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The tradition of wearing the varsity letter, a letterman jacket, or a varsity sweater is one that, in many places, still carries on to this modern day. It is so common in Americana we may take it for granted, but this badge of honor has a long and storied tradition. Our friend Timothy P Brown digs through the archives to find out where and why this exchange started and by whom in this weekly visit by the Football Archaeologist.

This piece originated with an article Tidbit that Tim wrote titled: Honoring Letter Sweaters and Jackets.

-Transcribed Tribute to Sweaters and Letterman Jackets with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And we are at that mark of the week.

It's Tuesday. It's footballarchaeology.com day. And we have the author and the creator of footballarchaeology.com, Timothy P. Brown, here to talk about another great tidbit he had coming from January. And Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Good to see you again and chat and looking forward to, you can't see, but I'm wearing a sweater and a jacket with my, you know, with my letter, letter sweater, and letter jacket from back in the day.

I've got those on right now and am wearing them proudly because I used to throw the ball over the mountain, if you weren't aware of that before. Okay, Uncle Rico. I'll get you that Napoleon Dynamite reference there.

But Tim, that's a good segue into your tidbit we're going to talk about today and it's titled Sweaters and Jackets. So this is a lot to do with the attire of the, of people playing football back in the day. So we're interested to hear what you have to say.

Yeah. You know, so I think some of the most fascinating things about football are the equipment and the gear. And part of what's fun about it is just that, in many cases, there are images that exist.

These are images of games or the team pictures that were posed in some photographer's office. And one of the things I really enjoy are, are the old catalogs. You know, one of the things I collect are old sporting catalogs.

And so you see those peppered, you know, maybe once a week, once every two weeks, I've got something in my tidbits that includes an image from a catalog. So, so, you know, I think most people are aware that the, you know, if you're a fan of football history, that football, that in the early days, players often wore fairly heavy sweater, you know, pretty significant, you know, big, big yarn, big threads, big yarn, heavy sweater. And oftentimes, it had the school letter on the front.

So if you were, you had a big Y in front, if you were Harvard, you had a H in front. And, you know, so whatever else, you know, whatever other letters that are out there. So that's very common.

And so one of the traditions that began, and this is, you know, 18, late 1880s, early 1890s was, you know, back then, if you look at most teams schedules, like Harvard and Yale, they kind of like, similar to what happens now, but they kind of filled their early schedule by playing what they would have thought of as minor opponents. And then they kind of saved their best game and their best plays and their best players for the big games at the end of the season. So if you were on the team and you played, and if you played for Harvard, you played against Yale, or you played against Princeton, and at the end of the year, got to keep the sweater that you wore in the game, which had the big H on the front of it.

And so that became a tradition. So, you know, I mean, I'm old enough to remember the days when there were no, you know, you couldn't go to the local mall and buy athletic gear. And there was no internet either.

So, you know, you couldn't, you couldn't. So athletic gear and team gear simply were not available. And so if you were able to get your hands on team-issued clothing from a college team, whether you played on the damn thing or not, that was pretty cool stuff, you know, because, you know, you could strut your stuff, you were, you had this pretty neat team gear walking around.

And people who knew that you had this, that you had gotten that gear. So it was the same thing with these guys. You know, they walked around campus, and everybody knew that if you wore this particular sweater, you would have played in one of the games. And in fact, early on, a lot of the team, a lot of the colleges would, if the, if the Y was a certain shape, or had certain flushes for football, the basketball team, or the crew team, or who, whatever else, especially the teams that considered minor sports, they didn't get to wear exactly the same Y or the same H, they had to wear some, they got something else, or these smaller letters.

And so, you know, it was just this whole thing. The football guys got to wear the football sweaters, so anyway, that all worked fine for, you know, maybe a decade or two.

And then it got, and then it became a thing where, obviously, football gear started changing. But also, you know, it's like nobody wanted to, you know, you couldn't wear the big heavy wool sweater all year round. So they started wearing, they started modifying the letter sweaters to become something that you might wear at an appropriate, you know, appropriately in some kind of social occasion.

So it was lighter, it was cotton, it had pockets, it had buttons, it was a cardigan, whatever, right? So it was just that they started making these sweaters be more into a true award in a separate piece of gear or apparel than the actual piece that you'd worn on the field. And then, you know, they also started doing charms and blankets and all kinds of stuff.

But, you know, basically, by the 1920s, they moved to a lot of the sweaters that had an emblem. So, if you were the Tigers, you might have a patch near one of the pockets. There was a type that had the head of a tiger. If you were the Lions or whatever, you know, whatever team you were, the Trojans, you had some kind of patch in addition to, you know, the letter sweater or the letters.

And then they also, it was in that kind of time period where they also had numerals, you know, so like by 1905, I think it was Harvard that had the first numerals. But that was if you were if you played as a freshman, you were on the freshman team, and you were on the night, you know, the team that was going to graduate in 1908, then you got, you could get a sweater and wear just your numerals on the sweater, right? No letter yet, just the numerals, which I think everybody, you know, is familiar with from the high school days. But so anyways, that kind of stuff just went on.

And then eventually, in the 1930s, we got to the point where, really, I don't think for any particular reason, but then the sporting manufacturers who were very happy to sell as many damn sweaters as they could, they started selling jackets as well. So they designed these jackets. And the early ones didn't really look like the, you know, kind of leather-sleeved.

And I don't even know what wool, I guess was, you know, the, you know, kind of the, I don't know, you know, well, the traditional leather jacket, right? Right. I think it's wool on the mid part and the midsection. Yeah, yeah.

And so, so anyways, I mean, they started selling those in the, well, they started marketing them in the early 30s. And then they became popular. And for a while, they were satin.

And, you know, so anyways, it's just one of those things where the jackets basically kind of replace a sweater. Now, when I was in high school, there were still guys who would, who had, you know, we had this thing called the Cardinal Club. So it was like the Letterman Society or whatever.

And so there were still guys who would buy the Letterman sweaters and wear them periodically. But it was pretty very much, you know, I don't think of it in my classroom, but there were, you know, some of the older guys who did. So, I mean, it was just one of those things that faded out.

But almost everybody wore a leather jacket, you know. And then it became a thing where, you know, the marching band has them. And, you know, it's become this much more democratic sort of thing instead of being this elite award only for the football players.

And everybody else has something less than that. Now, it's become much more of a widespread award, which I just, I just find, you know, whatever, I find that kind of interesting. Yeah, that makes me think of a story I heard with Amos Alonzo Stagg, the great coach at the University of Chicago.

And he would give out the blanket as you talked about earlier, that had, I guess, a C on it for Chicago to the seniors that played in whatever the big game was. One of the things that he would tell them, and I guess he practiced this, was if somebody would go professional, which he was dead set against professional football. If one of his former players would go and play professional football, he would ask them for the blanket back. That was sort of their punishment.

And, you know, I was reading it somewhere, there are people that like dreaded it, didn't want to lose their damn blanket, because it was just such a discrediting, dishonorable thing to do to coach Stagg that they wouldn't play pro football and, you know, first probably made more money at being a banker or something than playing football back then anyway. But it's amazing how those live on their own. So I think he established blank, and in most schools, there are still schools that award blankets today.

And that was a separate kind of an award because anybody, any fool, could win a letter for one season. The blanket was for somebody who earned three letters, or, you know, he had won the award three or four times. And yeah, so I mean, he started that in like 1902 or something.

I've got the program from the 1911 Order of the Sea ceremony at UChicago. So that was, I think, the eighth one at the time. So it's, yeah, I mean, it's funny. There are just as many things as a guy like Stagg came up with and innovated on the field.

He also did some things off the field like, you know, blankets and the first Letterman Society, which effectively was what the Order of the Sea was. Hmm. Fascinating stuff.

It's a great part of the game that that's off the field. But it's, you know, very interesting, indeed, to look at. And very, have you seen any of these like old sweaters, like in anybody's collections or anything that some of these from 100 years ago, or like this 1910 when you get pictured? So, you know, there are some folks that I, you know, our friends correspond with, and we train information.

And yeah, so some have those old items. And it's, I mean, they are very rare. They're different, especially since it's one thing to have an old sweater and not to make fun of an Otterbein or somebody like that.

But, you know, there are lots of small liberal arts schools all over the country, so that's cool. And a lot of people would love to have an old sweater like that in their collection. But if you have a Harvard or Yale or somebody like that, you know, that's a big-time deal.

Those are thousands of dollars for items like that. You know, so easy. So it just depends on the condition and, you know, provenance, all those kinds of things.

So it's, they can be very, very valuable. Hmm. I bet they are.

Especially if you keep them away from the moss for over a century, that's a, that's always a good thing too. To keep the value. I only have them in pictures.

I do not. The closest thing I've ever come to is like going to the pro football hall of fame and seeing, you know, the 1920s, you know, like Red Grange or somebody from the Canton Bulldogs, sweaters there, you know, so that you're talking 10, 20 years earlier and what you're talking about. So, I can't even imagine that.

So, hey, great, great stuff as always, Tim. You know, the listeners would probably love to enjoy these tidbits every day as well. Maybe you could give them some information to share the tidbits with them as well.

Yeah, sure. So the best way to, to get the tidbit every day is to follow me on or subscribe to my, to footballarchaeology.com. If you do, you'll get a tidbit at seven o'clock East every day by email. So it'll have the contents of the, of the, the story there.

So, you know, send out two to three times a month, send out kind of longer form articles as well as each week I send out a link to this, to our podcast. And then, you know, alternatively, you can follow me on, on Twitter. Football Archaeology is my, is my name or at F-O-F Strife.

So either way, whatever works for you. But if you subscribe, at least you know that you're going to get it and you can pile them up, read them on the weekend when you, when you've got more time. Good, good deal.

Multiple ways to get the tidbits and hopefully everybody will take advantage of that and read Tim's work each and every day. Cause it's very interesting stuff. And the pictures are just out of this world.

Some of these images, like the one from this catalog from 1910 that we talked about today with the sweaters pictured in it, are pictures worth a thousand words and definitely are, in these cases, with the tidbits. So Tim, thank you very much for joining us, and we will talk to you again next week. Thank you, sir.

And we'll look forward to next Tuesday.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Timothy P Brown posted a recent article describing an exciting award that some of our Nation's military training facilities once vied for on the football field. Tim joins us to bring this exciting subject in gridiron lore to light in this podcast episode as we continue our journey to preserve history.

This conversation is based on Tim's original Tidbit titled: Battling For The President's Cup.

-Transcription of the Presidents Cup games with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And once again, we have a visit from our friend Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com. And he's got another subject from one of his tidbits that he wrote recently.

That's going to talk about something that you find rather interesting, as I did when I read it. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Darin, glad to be back.Look forward to chatting again and enjoying the winter weather, as we talk football. Your tidbits are extremely interesting. And this one tonight you had titled Battling for the President's Cup.

And it was just recently on January 26th. I wonder if you could you could talk a little bit and tell us what the President's Cup was. Yeah, so I mean, it's one of those things that was that is now kind of forgotten, right? Most people have never heard of the President's Cup, but it was kind of a big deal in the state.

And so but like most things, there's kind of a background in order to in order to talk about the real subject. Right. And so, you know, I think the main point and you know, my my first book was about football played by military teams during World War One.

So, you know, I've always kind of followed football played in military settings. And I think it's one of those things that is is really underappreciated in terms of the development of football as a game. And so the military, just by nature of their mission, you know, they they took the game overseas before anybody else did.

So, as an example, the first game played in Europe was played by two battleships that were part of the Great White Fleet. They played in East France in 1909. Yada, yada.

And so, you know, the military, you know, if you think about it, who's in the military? Well, a lot of times, it's a bunch of young men who are physically fit and physically able, and a lot of them need to blow off steam. One of the traditional ways that they have done this is through athletics. You know, the Navy was always big on boxing because you could do that on a ship at sea.

But they were also big on playing football. And so. So, sports was both a recreation and a way to maintain fitness in the military.

You know, kind of as far back as people played sports for recreation. And then it really got a push in World War One. You know, in all the training camps during World War One, there were a lot of all kinds of sports being played. The YMCA played a big role, both in camps in the States and over in Europe.

One of the things that the YMCA did was provide athletic equipment, and they set up basketball courts, football fields, etc. So athletics was a big thing. And so one of the things that kind of came out of the World War One experience was that there it was really the first time, other than a couple of the pro leagues in Ohio or Pennsylvania, is really the first time where there were all-star teams put together of men who had graduated from college in the past five, six years who were all in the service together at one camp or another.

And these camps had 50,000 people at 26,000 people. I mean, these were massive. You know, massive groups of young men.

And the biggest college in the in the country at the time was Penn, which had 7,500 students. So all of a sudden you had lots and lots of young men playing football. They formed these camp teams and they were very successful.

They got lots of news coverage. Lots of people attended their games. They played colleges.

They beat the college, you know, the better teams beat the colleges. So, you know, they were playing as good a football as there was in the country, you know, during World War Two or World War One. Sorry.

So but even, you know, so then once the once the war ends, basically guys all, you know, they go back to civilian life. But there remained a core of of people playing or remaining in the military. And then they continued playing football.

And one of the things that they did was, you know, the Navy had done this back, you know, from 1905 on. But they would have these tournaments where all the destroyers or all the battleships or all the cruisers who were stationed at a particular port would have a tournament for a football for football teams. And they determine who is the champion.

And then they, you know, the Norfolk would play the champion of New York and Philadelphia or whatever. In the end, you know, they ended up. They ended up forming these teams where it was like, OK, we're going to get the best Navy team and the best Army team or the best Marine team.

And we're going to see they're going to play one another and see who's best. So for like 1920 on on the East Coast, they played a game like that. And kind of year after year, as Quantico Marines won because they just they emphasized it enough and they had some really talented players.

But in 1924 and 1925, Calvin Coolidge decided to present the President's Cup to the winner of the active duty football tournament on the East Coast. Right. So it was just, you know, it's one of those things where the president and the cabinet, you know, multiple cabinet secretaries, the general staff, the admiralty, those people would be at the games.

Allies would be at the games. They would and it became a big social event in Washington, D.C. or Baltimore. You know, they played in a couple of different locations.

You know, they have these military balls after the games. And it kind of, you know, I mean, it never got to the same level as the Army Navy academy games, but it probably wasn't too far behind that in terms of the stature because it was like, yeah, he's college kids, but these are the active duty guys. Right.

These are the real soldiers and sailors. So it's just it was kind of a neat thing where these guys ended up playing. And, you know, unfortunately, shortly after, the Coolidge presented this cup, and the Army decided to kind of deemphasize these all-star teams, and then the Navy did, too.

And so then the Marines were left to play the Coast Guard. And eventually it all moved. The East Coast kind of fell apart and the emphasis on these military all star teams moved to the West Coast, where what's now Pendleton in San Diego and, you know, versus the West Coast fleet and the and the Corps that handled the Western Army Corps.

But so it's just one of these things that's kind of lost in time. I mean, nobody knows about this stuff anymore, but it was a big deal. It was in all the newspapers.

And, you know, I mean, another, I think, really kind of fun fact is just that of the fact that I think it was 1921 and 2016 coached by this guy who had played at West Point. And then he coached St. Mary's College in Texas. And his name was Dwight Eisenhower.

Right. So here's a guy who, you know, became president. You know, he led the Allied effort in Europe in World War II and became president.

But he was coaching one of these teams, you know, back in the back in the 20s. And, you know, at one point, he was stationed in Panama. And the guy who was the head coach, who has a whole separate story that I've written about, you know, just incredible story that guy had.

But anyway, you know, he requested, hey, bring Ike back here because I needed to help coach my team. So he transferred Ike from Panama back to the States so that he could help coach this all-star football team. You know, it's just like crazy things that happen to guys because of football.

So anyway, it's just one of these things that I think people know very little about this President's Cup anymore. On the West Coast, they played what they called the Armistice Day game. And they tried to buy the President's Cup there.

It didn't work out. They just kept on playing the Armistice Day game. But so anyways, you know, in both locations, it was a big event, big social event, military balls, big newspaper coverage, and very good football.

Right now, you know, a lot of these guys, you know, initially, there are a lot of guys who played at West Point or Army, and then they made it only for enlisted men. But still, a lot of good athletes, just a lot of young men at these bases. And, you know, they had their pick of 10, 20, 30,000 young men who could play football.

So they put together some pretty good teams. Well, yeah, maybe I asked you this when we were talking about the Rose Bowl games. We were talking about those military teams from that era, from World War I. But did those camp teams ever play like the main Army team or the main, you know, the Naval Academy team or West Point team? So, yes.

But so in 1918, Great Lakes played the Naval Academy. They'd come out east. So they played four or five, big 10 teams, and either tied or beaten them.

Then they went out east and played Rutgers, who had Paul Robeson at the time. And they just cleaned their clocks. They won like, you know, whatever it was, 43 to six or something.

They just blew Rutgers away. And the next week, they go to Annapolis. And Annapolis was winning six to nothing late in the fourth quarter with the ball on the one-and-a-half-yard line.

And a guy named Ingram, who became famous as coach later on, he was, I believe his quarterback, maybe his fullback. But anyways, he fumbles the ball, pops in the air into the hands of a Great Lakes player who grabs the ball, runs 100 yards. Well, he tries to run 100 yards in the other direction.

And one of the Naval Academy players comes off the bench and tackles him. And so then, you know, all hell breaks loose. And so anyways, the Academy superintendent comes out on the field and says, you're giving orders to referees because the rules didn't have, you know, didn't clarify what the situation should be here or the conditions.

And the Academy superintendent says you are giving that touchdown to Great Lakes. You know, our guy cheated. That was it, right? The referee said, OK, fine.

And so then Great Lakes won the game. And in the locker room afterward, they get the invitation to the 1919 Rose Bowl. So, you know, the Army and Navy played some of those, and you know, played some of the camp teams, but it was pretty limited.

And so, for sure, I know the Great Lakes game. I'm not, you know, I'd have to look at their records, you know, for 17 and 18 to check on that. But I think that's, you know, that may have been the only game like that.

Yeah. I wasn't sure if they would or not because it's, you know, basically what the Naval Academies are going to be officers. And, you know, they're playing the regulars, and the guys are going to be the grunts, you know, playing them.

I didn't know if maybe they didn't want to cross those streams or not, but it's interesting. Yeah. So, you know, well, during World War I, you know, the different camps applied different rules.

Most of them allowed both officers and enlistment to play on the same teams. That was kind of unusual. The Navy and Marines were especially that way, but the Army was a little bit more, you know, keep them separated.

But anyway, you know, so, you know, 1918, they had the Spanish flu. And so a lot of what went on that season was to play any opponent you could find. Because things got so screwed up with the Spanish flu, and the, was SATC upended most of the schedule.

So it was kind of bizarre; it was probably the worst, the most bizarre season, even worse than the COVID season that we all went through recently. Wow. Yeah.

I mean, just in terms of strange schedules and craziness, 1918 was worse. So. Well, Tim is always, that's great stuff.

Now, why don't you tell everybody how they can get a hold and read your tidbits that you come out with every day? Yeah. So, you know, the site is footballarchaeology.com and the two ways to get access to it, if you're interested in looking at it daily, one is just to subscribe. You can bookmark it, obviously, if you want.

If you subscribe, you'll get an email sent to you with the article's contents every night at seven o'clock Eastern. Or you can follow me on Twitter. And again, you know, football archaeology there as well.

So either way, my preference is that you subscribe on the site because then make sure that you get whether you read it or not. At least I know you've received it. That's right.

All right. Well, great stuff, as always. And Tim, we really appreciate you.

And folks, make sure you visit footballarchaeology.com and do as Tim suggests, subscribe, and get that daily tidbit. It's really a great read each and every day. And you stay in football all year long.

And it's a really, really excellent way to do that. So, Tim, thanks a lot for joining us and sharing that story. And we'll talk to you again next week.

Hey Darin, I look forward to seeing you next Tuesday. Thanks.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Time to have our friend Tim Brown join us today for some football archaeology on one of the great Heisman winners of the 1930s and his special season and special stature coming up in just a moment. Hello, my football friends.

-Transcription of Davey Obrien and Standing Tall with Timothy Brown

This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history.

And as we try to do every Tuesday, we like to go on a little archaeological expedition. We go to the man on the website Football Archaeology, Timothy Brown. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey there. Thank you. Appreciate you having me again.
Looking forward to digging into a few things tonight. Digging is right. We were, you know, interested.

We were talking about this before we came on about one of your tidbits. You know, some of these, they're all stimulating, but some really catch my eye, and I'd love to hear a little bit more about them. This one came from later in October, and it's called Standing Call for the Heisman on October 23rd on FootballArchaeology.com. I was hoping maybe you could say a few words about that subject matter.

Yeah, you know, happy to. So, the Standing Call is, you know, basically about a guy named Davy O'Brien, who was a Heisman Trophy winner in 1938. But he was 5'7".
And, you know, so we all know, we all went to high school or grade school or whatever with some guy who was too short, but he was a heck of an athlete. And, you know, just the guy was a stud. But eventually, he kind of met his limits athletically, you know, in terms of competing against, you know, bigger players.

Even in high school, a lot of guys that size can get away with things. And here and there, we've got an NBA or an NFL player who does it. But back then, it was a little bit more common, you know.

And so, Davy O'Brien was, you know, like I said, 5'7", grew up in Dallas. And he succeeded Sammy Baugh as the quarterback or the center of the Dutch Meyers TPU spread office. So, you know, I mean, we like to think the spread is this brand new, shiny thing that all these smart, you know, modern people created.
But back in the 30s, in the late 30s, Dutch Meyers was running an offense that had two basic formations. One was had a single back, the double wing and two double split ends. You know, so just think about that.

A single back, double wings, and two split ends, right? So that looks like a lot of people's spreads nowadays. He also ran, he didn't call it this, but he ran an empty formation with trips on one side, you know, and split on the other. So, and he ran the ball, it's a lot.

So, I mean, run it especially out of the one-back formation. So, I mean, it's just the idea that these guys, TCU, were doing things well before anybody else in terms of just bringing modern spread horizontal concepts to football. So, you get this guy, Davey O'Brien, who takes over for Sammy Ball, who's got it, and, you know, it's back in single platoon football.

So, O'Brien played both ways. He wasn't just this little, you know, a dinky quarterback that, you know, just ran out and was protected against being tackled hard and stuff like that. You know, he was a player, he's a blocking back, he punted, you know, he was their primary punter.
And so, I'm going to say this next thing with a little bit of caution. As a senior, he set the passing yardage in a season record, NCAA record. He also set the combined rushing and passing by an individual in a season.

Now, that was a 1938 season, and the NCAA only started tracking statistics in 1937. So, you know, it wasn't, yeah, okay, you know, but nevertheless, I mean, the point really is that what he was doing so far ahead of almost anybody else, right? And so, and just one little side note to the statistics thing. The statistics weren't, you know, it was like the NCAA did this.

It was a separate guy named Herman Homer who created this entity called the American Football Statistical Bureau, and then in 22 years, they sold it to the NCAA. And so, all of the football records of the NCAA were actually, for the first 22 years, compiled by a separate company. You know, so his company started in 37.
And so, if you look at any NCAA record, they start in 1937, you know, from this guy's records. Anyways, Davey O'Brien was a stud. So, he finishes his senior year, winning a national championship.

He's the Maxwell and Heisman Trophy winner. He then gets drafted by the NFL; the Giants take him number four in the 39 draft. He leads the NFL in passing yardage as a rookie, though they only won one game, and comes back as a second-year player.

Again, has a great season. They only win one game. And then he says, I'm done.

And he quits pro football and becomes an FBI agent. And he does that for about 10 years and goes into various business adventures, you know. So, it's just kind of an interesting thing.

You know, there are very few NFL players who leave today to become FBI agents, right? Especially when you just led the league in passing. But, you know, different times, different places. Different pay scales.
Yeah, different pay scale, you know. Well, here's another thing about it. To that point, he was the fourth Heisman Trophy winner, but he was the first one to sign with the NFL.

The first three didn't even bother. Oh, that's right. Yeah.
You know, they were coming from the University of Chicago and two guys from Yale, and they were like, hey, I don't need this NFL thing. I've got better, you know, business opportunities. And so, you know, none of the first, you know, neither none, whatever of the first three played in the NFL.

Yeah, you really have to go back and really admire people that play professional football, especially those first, like, five or six decades, because they really did it for the love of the game and the love of the competition. They weren't getting rich by doing it. Most, you know, I think almost all of them had to have a regular job in the offseason and things like that.
And it's just an amazing thing to think about where today, you know, that's their whole life. And, you know, they're, they're set for life after playing a couple of years. And yeah, I would say, you know, they made significant money compared to the average worker, right? And for some of them, it was just like today.

I mean, I get into arguments. I got into a recent argument or spat with some CFL fans about the talent levels between the NFL and CFL. And, you know, the CFL has tremendous players. I mean, they're gifted athletes, but they're, in my mind, just not anywhere near NFL caliber.
I mean, yeah, some of them are bottom-end NFL players, and that's fine. But, the point is that even in the CFL, they can make more money playing as a 24, 25-year-old young man in the CFL compared to getting out of school and whatever, becoming an underwriter or, you know, whatever it is you do when you leave school, right? Now, if they were chemical engineering majors or something, yeah, they can make more money doing that. But, you know, not many of those are playing football.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's a pretty good parallel.
You know, I didn't think that maybe not even the CFL, but maybe some of these, these other leagues that are coming up, you know, like the XFL and the spring league and now, now the USFL, some of those, you know, those guys aren't making much at all compared to their peers in the bigger leagues, you know, like the NFL and the CFL, but they're doing enough to make a living and get by. And you know, hopeful their hope is to advance into the NFL. And I'm sure that's probably the goal.
And I think that's it. It's the hope it's keeping the hope alive. Right.

And then there are kids who are probably more like D3 sort of kids, but you know, there are a decent number of American kids now heading over to Europe and playing. And, but it's more of a cultural experience, and they're not making big money. I mean, literally, they're making, I know one kid who played in the NF or in Europe last year, making like 800, a thousand bucks a game, but he got into an NFL camp this year, you know, and got cut, but you know, he made a camp.

And so, you know but, but I think for guys like that, it's more like, yeah, you got a chance to play in Austria or live in Finland for six months or something, you know, it's, it's a life experience rather than money, money grab, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely an interesting lifestyle.
And when you can do the thing you love and travel, Hey, why, why not do it when you're a young person? Any day, any day. Right. Good for them.

Good for them. I mean, I don't care what level you're playing, playing, if you're still taking a shot at it, have at it, you know? Absolutely. Yeah.

So good for you. Yeah. Love to hear that.

All right. Well, Tim, why don't we take this opportunity right now to, you know, just like this was a tidbit on Davey O'Brien, you have some very interesting things coming out each and every day, sometimes multiples in a day. And why don't you share with folks how they can get on your list to get this information? Yeah.

So, you know, my site is footballarchaeology.com. You can go on there and subscribe. And what that means is you'll get an email at seven o'clock every day. And then, some other days, you'll get more than one, but basically, you'll get at least a daily email that provides some information.

And if, if not there, then you can I mean, you can always visit the site just, you know, randomly, but you can also follow me on Twitter at football archaeology. And so whichever, however you consume information, however you prefer to view it, have at it. I'm more than happy to have people check it out.

All right. Well, Tim Brown, football archaeology. Thank you once again for joining us this week and talking about some more great football history and some of these great things from the past that may be overlooked, but we're glad that you're researching them and bringing them to our attention.

And we'd love to talk to you again next week. Very good. Look forward to it, sir.


Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.