Legends of the Gridiron: The Unforgettable 1939 Packers

That's a year that echoes with a thunder of leather helmets and the roar of the Green Bay dynasty.

Tonight, we'll unravel the story of the packers legendary championship, a tale of grit, strategy, and a season to shape the NFL's destiny.

Join us as we sit down with football historian Tommy A.

Phillips to explore a year time forgot and a team that refused to be silenced.

This is the Pigskin Daily History Dispatch, a podcast that covers the anniversaries of.

American football events throughout history.

Your host, Darren Hayes is podcasting from.

America's North Shore to bring you the memories of the gridiron one day at a time.

Hello, my football friends.

This is Darren Hayes of pigskindispatch.com welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal deposit of football history.

Yes, there was life before the super bowl and we had quite an NFL exhibition going on with the teams we had back then.

Historian Tommy Phillips was with us.

You might have heard his podcast read one of his many books.

Tommy, welcome to the Pig Pen.

Hi, thanks for having me on.

Yeah.

Tommy, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you've been doing.

Any current writings or podcasts coming out?

So that that book will be probably coming out next year, I.

I assume, but I'm just about finished with it.

And yeah, that, that's been really fun going through all the players who have really interesting different stories and stuff.

Yeah, it's going to be called the Perfect packers.

Hopefully.

Hopefully they go for my name of the book coming out soon.

And of course, my other stuff as well.

Well, yeah, you quite have quite the library of items that you've written.

College football, pro football, and you know, now the Olympics and some other items.

So that's quite a thing.

You can find all your work on like Amazon and Barnes and Noble, correct?

Yeah, Amazon has everything.

Some of my books are on are published by McFarland, so you can find them there too.

Okay, we'll throw some links up, folks, if you're driving, can't write it down right now.

We'll get some links here in the show notes of both the YouTube and the podcast notes and get you hooked up to where get some of Tommy's work and, and find it's really some gems he has.

But we're going to talk about the, the 39 packers tonight because we've really been talking a lot about the packers here lately in our previous episodes of, you know, winning some, getting close on some others.

And you know, it seems like they, they put it all together here in 39 after a few years of, you know, being in and out of the championship game.

And of course he, I think he had 99 touchdowns in his career.

And those ones around there, those were really dominant teams.

This one though had really three players who could throw the ball, who, who weren't technically quarterbacks.

But that's basically what they did.

So you had Arnie Herbert, you had Clark Hinkle and you had Cecil Isbell and that those three could all throw the ball and made for a pretty high octane offense for the day.

That is, hey, we've know, we've talked about Berber and you know, well, not Isabelle so much, but the Don Hudson, you know, definitely some of the other championship games we talked about.

So this time the game goes back into Wisconsin.

The west has the advantage of having the home field for the championships.

They alternated.

So that's, you know, puts a lot of thrill into it again just having these two Titans meeting once again, you know, two years in a row.

Yeah, yeah.

Packers and Giants were sort of rivals for all Long time, actually.

I mean in the 60s they meet in back to back championship games.

Again, that was back when the Giants.

Well, that's.

We're going forward in time, but you'll probably get to this.

But where the Giants go to five championships in six seasons and I think they only won one of those.

And so yeah, packers and Giants met a lot of times in the NFL championship game.

Yeah.

And this is a sort of.

You had, you know, you had the Bears and the packers in the west, you had the Redskins and the Giants in the east.

They're real close at the top of the standings.

We have an image of the standings popping up on the screen right now for your viewers.

But you can see, you know, The Giants were 91 and 1 and they barely nudged out the Redskins who were 8, 2 and 1.

As Tommy said, the 9 and 2 Packers squeaked by the Chicago Bears who were 8 and 3 with Detroit close behind with 6 and 5.

So it's a real close race.

That had to be a thrilling season for fans to be paying attention to.

Yeah.

And one thing to note about these older seasons is that the tie games did not count in the standings.

So.

So you could have a team who won more games but had more ties might end up lower in the standings than another team.

Now that didn't happen this year, but that was something that was unique about it.

Where.

What was the one championship.

I don't know if this had a championship game.

I, I'm thinking 32 maybe where one team, I think the Bears had three ties or someone had three ties and the other team had six ties and.

And they were all thrown out.

So they had to play each other in a playoff game.

Yeah, that was a 32 game.

That was actually the year before the championships.

That's what sort of prompted the championships games to start in 33.

And Josiemba, who covered the Bears championship in 33, mentioned it, you know, the, the packers with.

If you would have counted ties like we do today, their winning percentage would have put them in the championship game.

Exactly.

Not the Bears.

Packers had the best record.

If you count ties, their winning percentage would have nudged them into the championship.

So packers sort of got the short end of the stick that at that tie there a couple times in the early championship teams.

Yeah, yeah.

So was there.

Okay, so I assume There had to be some classic battles between the Bears and the packers that year because we know.

We know during the regular season.

This is odd.

The Giants and the packers did not meet in a regular season, which is kind of interesting.

The two teams.

You think that you want your two marquee teams to.

To play at some point in time during regular season, just get some fan draw.

But they waited till the championship game to meet each other.

But how were these the Bears and Packers rivalries during this season?

Well, see, I'm trying to use my cheat sheet here.

That's okay.

We want accuracy.

Yeah.

Okay.

So they.

They only played the Bears once that season and.

No, no, I'm sorry.

They played them twice.

I was looking at a different team.

They played them twice and split the season series.

So pretty.

Pretty evenly matched with the Bears beat them at home by five points, lost to them by three in November.

Yeah.

So, yeah, they.

They.

The rivalry wasn't what it is today, you know, or even in the 60s, but it's still.

But it was becoming pretty big back then.

So this is, you know, whenever the Bears went on their run of championships in the 40s, you know, obviously that put them.

You know, I'm not sure if the Bears ever went ahead of the packers in championship victories.

I.

Because you had the Bears winning all those championships in the 40s and the packers had what, six by then?

So I'm not sure if the Bears ever caught them.

But obviously the packers have more now.

Yeah.

So.

So this would have been the.

The fifth championship.

Right.

For.

Yeah.

And then 39 would have been the fifth.

Yeah.

And see, I'm trying.

I'm just trying to do a real quick math here to.

To prove your point here.

And so The Bears had one in 33.

They had 40, 41 and 43.

That's four.

So they're still behind.

And.

Yeah.

Then the packers start hitting in the 60s.

You know, the Bears didn't have anything in between her.

Yeah.

The Bears have never had more championships.

Well, I guess you could count.

Let's see if you count the.

The.

The Chicago Stales and that one back in 21.

Yeah.

So it was close, but I don't think.

I think you're right.

That may have been the only time when.

That before the championship games.

Yeah.

With the Stales had one.

Were one up on the Packers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, good point.

Good point.

I never really thought about it that way.

Very interesting.

So tell us a little bit about, you know, how.

So this was.

You said that, you know, you had three passers on this, this was of course still a single wing era.

Right.

In single platoon football too.

These guys are playing both sides of the football and the single wing is kind of interesting because you never know who's going to throw that ball.

When you have three guys with good arms, that really makes them a dangerous and formidable foe.

Yeah, yeah.

There's lots of interceptions at the time.

Like for example, this championship game had nine interceptions, I think.

Oh yeah, and three by one, three.

The Giants through six and the packers threw three.

And yeah, but at the time it was just, that was just a way of getting the ball way downfield and you didn't really, it wasn't that devastating if it got turned over.

That was just like a punt pretty much.

Obviously now nowadays possession is everything and interceptions are at an all time low.

But still in the 30s, it was very, it was very difficult to throw the football without getting picked off because, I mean, nine interceptions this game and that, that, that was a pretty good indicator of what it was like back then.

Yeah, and the, the defensive contact rules were a little bit different than we know today.

They could, yeah, they could rough them up a little bit out there and, and go through the ball or go through the player to get to the ball a lot more than not have a yellow hanky laying on the field as quite as often as we see it today.

So yeah, definitely an aspect of the game that's changed and probably for the good, it's changed to the modern times because we don't want to see, you don't want to see Don Hudson laid out on a field because somebody, you know, took a cheap shot at him downfield.

So that's, that's probably a good thing.

And better offense makes better crowds and more interest and NFL must be doing it right because they are hitting some record numbers and salary caps going up every year.

So people are paying money.

Yep.

Yeah.

So tell us a little bit about the scoring in this championship game.

How did this scoring come about here and who scored?

Okay, so, yeah, this is where we talk about how three, three of the players could throw passes.

And you had Ernie Herbert throwing the first touchdown pass of the game and that put the packers up seven nothing.

And it was seven nothing at halftime.

And then later on, Isabel threw a touchdown pass and the game went from 7 nothing to 10 nothing, 17 nothing and all the way to 27 nothing.

Giants never on the board.

This Was the first set out in NFL championship game history.

And yeah, so some of these guys names I do not, I do not recognize, I do not recognize Ng Bratson, Anger Brettson.

I.

I don't even know how to pronounce that.

But he was obviously their kicker and he made a field goal in the game.

Back then, field goals were a real adventure.

Some teams would go entire seasons without even trying a field goal.

I think they tried one of them and missed and maybe two, but.

So whenever I see that there was a field goal in this game, I'm.

I'm kind of amazed because back then they just did not.

Kickers weren't as good as they were today, and it was a lot more difficult.

Yeah, it looks like they had two field goals in that game.

They have one and a third, one and a fourth.

Now the game, I mean, had to be pretty exciting in the first half because Green Bay was scored in the first quarter and it was 7 nothing at halftime.

So, you know, the Giants are very much in it at halftime.

They had to be feeling pretty good about themselves because I think, you know, they didn't move the ball too much, but the packers were moving the ball and just couldn't, you know, cash in.

Except for that one.

A single touchdown.

But boy, did the floodgates open in a second half.

Oh, what a, what an onslaught in the second half it was.

Yeah.

What?

Giants stayed in the game because they blocked two punts and both times put them in great position to score.

And then, you know, they turned the ball over and weren't able to capitalize.

And that was probably why it was so close in the first half.

But the second half, the packers got their act together and Giants really had no response.

Yeah, well, they, during that seven nothing halftime.

There was a big event at halftime.

I don't know if you can, if you know what that was.

No, well, this was played in, in Milwaukee, this game, and they ended up dedicating the Dairy bowl by breaking a bottle of milk at halftime in the middle of the field.

Hopefully they picked up the shards of glass when they did that.

But big, big event there in Milwaukee, the Dairy bowl and promoting the products from Wisconsin.

Yeah, that was back whenever they would split the games between Milwaukee and Green Bay.

And usually they move some of the bigger games than Milwaukee because they knew they get a bigger crowd there.

I know that one of even One of the 60s playoff games was played in Milwaukee, and so they.

They were splitting between Green Bay, Milwaukee all the way back then.

Geez, I bet you it would.

Wouldn't go too well today.

I bet you people in Green Bay would be out with pitchforks and hammers to get that game back in Lambeau.

Yeah.

It's kind of interesting that though, like you said, that history.

I mean, how many teams can say that where you have two cities supporting you and you're.

You're going back and forth on them?

That's.

That's kind of neat.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

Well, it ended up being a great day there in Milwaukee with that 27 nothing victory in the Packers.

You know, waste that fifth championship banner.

I don't know if they hoisted banners back then, but we can imagine.

We can pretend that Lambo is pro Lambos.

You know, having somebody sew one up for him and.

And hanging up in the stadium somewhere at the Dairy bowl or wherever.

The Lodge.

The Lodge Lodge.

That Rockwood Lodge.

I think that was what it was called that burned down and saved the packers from folding in the.

Yeah.

Oh, really?

Is that like where they hung out and had a.

Had a few.

Yeah, yeah.

Curly.

So curly.

Lambo laid in his career with Green Bay.

He bought this lodge, and this lodge was like this amazing place for the players to stay at and for their families to stay at.

And so it was like a very great place for training camp.

Problem was, it cost so much money that the packers went really down into debt and.

And things were looking pretty bad.

And then one night a fire started and it burned down the whole lodge.

And the packers were able to get insurance money off that, and the insurance money saved the team from folding.

But Lambaugh got mad and he left and joined the Cardinals after that.

And.

But yeah, and some people.

People don't know.

There's no way of knowing how the lodge burned down, but people suspect someone did it on purpose and it saved the franchise.

So, yeah, it's sounds a little suspicious, but, you know, it sounds like a good thing at first.

And you're trying to think about, wait a second, maybe that wasn't such a coincidence.

But yeah, insurance fraud's been happening for years.

Huh?

But we don't know that.

It's an alleged.

It's an alleged conspiracy theory.

We don't know that.

Yeah, but.

Yeah, no one died.

No, no one died in that, too.

So you.

You really think.

I really think maybe that it's possible, but we don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah, we don't Speculation.

But yeah, that makes things a little spicier for looking back at history.

So.

Yeah, so that, that's a, That's a great story.

Great story for the, the packers winning that, that fifth championship.

And, you know, you.

You talked about your book that you got coming out here in the next year, but maybe tell us a little bit about.

You wrote a book about Penn State not too long ago.

Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that book.

Yeah, so I spent the whole pandemic writing a book on Penn State board bowl games.

At the time, they had been the 50 bowl games.

And I went and reviewed every season they did that.

They went to a bowl and then I told the story of the bowl games and wins, losses, ties, everything.

And I also go through and rank some of the players and some of the games, which ones I felt were the best ones.

And yeah, so unfortunately I can't update it every single year, but they're probably up to 55 by now.

Yeah, you'd be like a volume of encyclopedias on that book, wouldn't you?

Yeah, every year they go to another bowl and.

And unfortunately I can't add to it, but yeah, the first 50 bowls, Penn State history are all on there, and that's Penn State bowl games.

It's published by McFarland and you can find it at a lot of sites online.

All right, well, Tommy, we look forward to.

Like I said, folks, check out the links in the show notes for Tommy's books.

We'll get you hooked up with that.

Tommy, really appreciate you coming on here.

Talk, you know, this great packers championship, talking about your books that you have coming out.

We're excited to see the one that's coming out and ones you already have out, including the Penn State book.

And we really appreciate you coming on here and sharing with us today.

Thank you very much.

I appreciate it.

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