Football History

This Pro Football Hall of Fame player was as intense a competitor as they come, according to multiple accounts. A career-long stint with the Chicago Bears made for a legendary career.

Born January 11, 1895, in Evanston, Illinois, was College and Pro Football Hall of Fame back, Paddy Driscoll. This amazing athlete played college football as a quarterback and halfback for the Northwestern football team in 1915 and 1916. In 1917, he played Major League Baseball as an infielder for the Chicago Cubs.

He joined the United States Navy during World War I and played for the undefeated 1918 Great Lakes Navy football team that won the 1919 Rose Bowl. A triple-threat man in football, he was regarded as the best drop kicker and one of the best overall players in the early years of the National Football League. Driscoll was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1965 and the College Football Hall of Fame in 1974. Paddy was on the Pro Football rosters of for the Hammond All-Stars (1917), Hammond Pros (1919), Racine/Chicago Cardinals (1920–1925), and Chicago Bears (1926–1929).
NFL Jersey 20. NFL Jersey 1. NFL Jersey 2.

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Our guest is historian and collector Jeff Payne, who joins us to discuss an incredible portion of his vintage gridiron collection concerning the 1948 Cleveland Browns. The 1948 Cleveland Browns cemented themselves in football history by achieving the seemingly impossible: an undefeated season. This summary details their dominant run:

Building the Team:

-Head coach Paul Brown continued to refine his squad after winning the previous two AAFC championships.

-Key additions included linebacker Alex Agase and halfbacks Ara Parseghian and Dub Jones.

Dominating the Regular Season:

-The Browns kicked off the season with a victory against the LA Dons and never looked back, winning all 14 regular season games.

-Their closest contests were two close wins against the San Francisco 49ers, who also finished with a strong record.

-The Browns offense averaged 27.8 points per game, the second-best in the league, while their defense held opponents to a league-low 13.6 points per game.

Securing the Championship:

-Finishing the season with a perfect 14-0 record, the Browns secured the Western Division title.

-They faced the Buffalo Bills, who had won the Eastern Division through a playoff in the AAFC Championship game.

-The Browns capped off their undefeated season by defeating the Bills 49-7, earning their third consecutive AAFC championship.

It's important to note that while the Browns' undefeated season is considered remarkable, it occurred in the AAFC, which merged with the NFL in 1950. The NFL does not officially recognize AAFC records, making the 1972 Miami Dolphins the only team in NFL history to complete an undefeated season.

However, the 1948 Cleveland Browns remain a legendary team, showcasing outstanding coaching, a well-rounded roster, and a dominant playing style that brought them perfection on the field.

Bonus stories in the Video
In the conversation with Jeff Payne, we chat about football-related stories outside the Browns. How about George Halas during wartime? Or Crazy Legs Hirsch connection to the AAFC? Or Johnny Unitas reason for wearing Black high-tops?

Hailing from Canada, Bronko Nagurski carved his name in football history with raw power and fierce determination. At the University of Minnesota, he dominated both sides of the field, earning All-American honors and solidifying his legend. Joining the Chicago Bears in 1930, he became a symbol of their "Monsters of the Midway" era.

Bronko Nagurski's legendary football story is told by NFL Films' Chris Willis. Nagurski bio.

Standing at 6'2" and 235 lbs, Nagurski was a force to be reckoned with. He excelled as a fullback, powering through defenses with unmatched ferocity. His rushing yards remain impressive even by today's standards, and his blocking skills paved the way for teammates' success. But Nagurski wasn't just an offensive weapon. As a defensive tackle, he was equally imposing, shutting down plays with relentless aggression.

His impact went beyond individual stats. Nagurski helped the Bears win two NFL championships and played a key role in their four World Championship appearances. His influence was so profound that some credit him with inspiring the team's iconic nickname. His career wasn't without interruptions, however. Salary disputes and a successful professional wrestling stint led to temporary retirements, but Nagurski always returned to the gridiron, proving his enduring passion for the game.

By the time he finally hung up his cleats in 1943, Nagurski had cemented his place among the game's greats. He became an inaugural inductee into both the College Football and Pro Football Halls of Fame.


-Transcribed Conversation with [b]Chris Willis: on Bronko Nagursk[/b]

Darin Hayes:
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes: of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And we have a great interview lined up today. We're gonna talk to one of our friends, Chris Willis:, who is the head of the NFL Films Library and an author of multiple books. We've had him on here a bunch of times on the program, talking about some of his other books, the book on Joe Carr and the book on Red Grange. He's helped us out with our football numbers before. And he's got a new book out that we're gonna talk about. And I'll let him introduce it to you here in just a moment as we bring in Chris Willis. Welcome back to the Pigpen.

Chris Willis:
Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to be on.

Darin Hayes:
Now, Chris, this is, uh, we were talking a little bit before we came on. This is an extremely busy time of the year for anybody involved in football. But for you particularly, this is, you've got a bunch of things going on. And I don't know if you wanted to say some of those on air to give them a little bit of pub or.

Chris Willis:
Sure. And I mean, if you're a football fan, like I said, you're licking your chops now, you know, college football started this weekend. And like I said, we've been working on Hard Knocks, and we've got one more show and two more shows with Hard Knocks.

Darin Hayes:
It was another outstanding season. You guys hit it out of the park again.

Chris Willis:
And then, you know, the kickoff games, you know, preseason, you know, is wrapping up now. Then we got the kickoff game on September 8th, and then a full week in a football, you know, coming up. So, yeah, so if you're a football fan, you know, it's like I always say, it's good, busy. You know, it's not bad, busy. It's all good, busy, you know, to be involved. So, but now we're, yeah, we're getting close to real games, especially in the NFL. Thanks for watching!

Darin Hayes:
And just when you thought Chris was busy with all that he just mentioned, he's also got a book that just came out. And Chris, if you could give us the title of the book and where folks can get it from, we'll talk about it again later in the program as well.

Chris Willis:
Sure. Yeah, it's a biography. It's a book on Bronko Nagursky, the Bears, the Hall of Fame, and a fullback. So it's called Bronko, the legendary story of the NFL's greatest two-way fullback. And it just was out in the middle of July. So, it's starting to make its rounds. You can get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And then our publisher is Rowan in Littlefield. So if you go on ROWMAN .com, you can pick it up there too. But it was just released last month or so. So.

Darin Hayes:
So yeah, I'm sure your email inbox and telephones are ringing, and everything's extremely busy for you this time of year. So, we really appreciate you coming on and spending a few moments with us to talk about this book.

Chris Willis:
Sure.

Darin Hayes:
Thank you. You know, as one thing I really enjoy about your books and those of the listeners that have read Chris's work is how he goes into the detail in the roots of the subjects that he's talking about. And he does the same in this book and Bronko book, and maybe you could just give us a little bit of background on where Bronko came from I guess first of all let's start off what his, his proper name is his God given name is.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, he was; he was actually born in Canada, just over the Canadian border, you know, in Ontario. So, Bronislaw Nagursky was his full name. But that name was a very difficult to pronounce, you know, as he was growing up, the family early on around, I think it was around five, six years old, he moved from Ontario to International Falls, you know, his father moved the family to International Falls. And so the kids, you know, started playing with him, but they had a hard time pronouncing his name. And so Bronko was a logical sort of Ukrainian nickname that they gave him, and, you know, he actually kept it for the rest of his life. He pretty much went by Bronko. You know, as I said, he sort of stayed in International Falls, even when he became, you know, a great player with the Bears; he became a World Championship wrestler too, in the 30s, he always came back to International Falls and sort of lived pretty much his entire life there, until he passed away in 1990, in that area. So, so that's kind of where he was from, you know, sort of northern Minnesota, you know, up there, you know, near the Canadian border, you know, which was like a sort of tough lifestyle, you know, you know, have like, what, I think Bronko used to say, quote, something like they had, you know, eight months of winter and three months of bad snow or bad sledding, you know, for the rest of the year. So, so he loved it up there, you know, he loved the lake, and he loved being a part of that area, and that sort of, you know, and he got that reputation of being like a pole bunionist, you know, player or personality because of where he was from in International Falls and stuff. So, that's where he sort of got his persona.

Darin Hayes:
Well, it's interesting. You said the Paul Bunyan thing because there's at least one story I've heard about, and I think I've even, uh, said it on, on one of my programs that I, I said, though, I scratched my head. It's a little bit hard to believe. I'm sure there are other ones too about him because he almost is personified as Paul Bunyan, at least in this one story of how he and his, uh, coach at Minnesota, Doc Spears, met now you say a much different way, which I think sounds more like that's probably the truth. Uh, but, uh, have you heard some of these tales?

Chris Willis:
Yeah. I mean, the tale of Spears sort of driving through that area and seeing Bronko plowing the farm field with no horse and then asking for directions and lifting the plow. But that was definitely a story. I mean, I wrote about that in the book where, because of several interviews, Nagersky says, yeah, that was sort of made up, and it was sort of a good banquet story. I mean, he would go with it a little bit and get the chuckle and stuff. But definitely, like I said, part of that sort of Paul Bunyan -esque sort of persona that he got the reputation of.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that was the only thing missing from that story. It was the giant blue ox in the back, you know, I think. So, let's talk a little bit more about him growing up at International Falls from the book because I think it really establishes who Bronko is. And, you know, the family sort of goes through some turmoil and some life-changing moments when he's a child in International Falls. Maybe you could describe that a little bit.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, obviously, this is, you know, early 1900s. So you know, you know, especially in that area, you know, they had some fires, like his father, you know, started out working in the mills, there's some, you know, paper mills and some, you know, mills there in the area, and they had some fires. And so he had to kind of adjust. And then when they moved to International Falls, you know, he sort of started his own business, you know, he had a sort of like a grocery store there that became, you know, had a, you know, housing and stuff like that. So, it was a little bit of a struggle. I mean, I mean, he was never homeless, but yeah, you know, like I said, but that's all he knew, you know, he learned hard work from his dad, you know, at the store, there are several quotes from Nagurski that I found, you know, it's like, you know, he would, you know, he would go to school and then come back and work at the store, he'd make deliveries and the family wagon, you know, you know, you know, to whoever needs it, whether it was food or grain, you know, sugar or whatever, you know, that they had, and things like that. So it was, it was definitely, you know, a country as sort of lifestyle that sort of, you know, that they just made the best of what they did, you know, he had a brother and two other sisters, you know, you know, that he helped take care of too, you know, so he. So he learned, as I said, I think the most important thing he's learned sort of how to how to be a hard worker, and, especially the times on the farm and, and in the mills and things like that, he even did something like he built his body up to be, you know, I mean, he was six to, you know, 235 pounds, like just this chiseled, you know, you know, sort of greed God, you know, you know, and that's how you know, as athlete stuff. So, all that came from this sort of hard-working background with his family.

Darin Hayes:
OK. Yeah, I got that. I mean, if there's an underlying theme to the whole book, it's, you know, the Nagurski family and Bronko emulating that for his whole life. You know, like you said, that hard work and putting in all the effort to get the job done and doing a little bit more. It shows in his football prowess and wrestling, as well, as you define well in the book. It's some great examples of that. So, there are some things I look forward to for the listeners when they pick up the book to read. Now he, you have him playing high school a little bit in international falls. And then, his senior season, he's in high school. He makes a little bit of a change to who he's playing for.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of those sorts of, you know, era things, you know, those sort of vagabond type of things, like they weren't quite as many, you know, hardcore rules, although the Minneapolis high school athletics was, was there or so. But International Falls was definitely a super small town. So they didn't have a lot of boys playing on the team. So they weren't that competitive. They actually didn't really win football games when Bronko was there for a couple of years. And then, before his senior year, there was a team. Most of the teams were like, you know, an hour away because they're so spread out. It was Bemidji was a very good football team. The year before Bronko's junior year, I think they beat international falls like 48 to nothing. Although they could see that Bronko might have been the best player on the field, he just didn't have anything surrounding it, you know. So they sort of kind of recruited was like, hey, if you come to play for us, you could play on the football team and the basketball team. And you'll get, you know, a little more publicity, and you might be able to go play in college, you know, the coach there, you know, kind of promised him that if you want to go play in college, I might be able to get you into college. So he, he asked his parents, and so since his parents weren't gonna, you know, have to pay for anything, he would stay there, he actually, they were gonna get him a job, and he was actually gonna live in the janitor's room, there was gonna be a cat for him in the janitor's room. So he so he goes down there. But International Falls, the athletic director and head coach, really disliked it. So, they actually asked the athletic association to look into this. And it turned out that because he was a transfer, he would actually have to sit out a semester. You know, he did not live in Bemidji. So it turns out that during his senior year, he still went because he said they still needed him for basketball. But all he did was practice, and he did not play in the games. So he didn't actually play in any varsity games during his senior year, and then he ended up playing basketball season; he's graduated from Bemiji, not International Falls High School. So he spent one year there. And then, you know, he sort of graduated, and then he came back to International Falls.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting story, but he didn't play, as you said, he practiced, and you pointed out in your story that some of the things that he, the benefits he got of practicing with a bigger school that was a little bit more established, a coach was a little bit, had a little bit more wherewithal, probably a little bit better program that he learned a lot of things that he probably wouldn't have learned if he stayed at the international falls teams. Is that a true statement?

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, the media was one of the better programs, especially in that area in the state of Minnesota. So he, he had one quote that I found in one of his interviews, like he mentioned, Oh, at that point, I thought I could play in college because I was, I was just as good as some of the players are even better than the players that were on the team. I just didn't get to play, you know, in the games. And so they gave him confidence. Hey, if I do go, you know, to God's, and of course, yeah, he went to the University of Minnesota. He thought he could be competitive and play because of the fall that he spent practicing against a very good team that had some pretty quality players.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, so OK, so you stayed somewhat local and went to the University of Minnesota place for Doc Spears, as we alluded to earlier. And you, by the way, I think you did a magnificent job. I learned a lot about Doc Spears because, just like you did with Bronko, you went back and told the backstory of Doc Spears, where he grew up, and everything. And I'll let the listeners get a copy of the book and do that. We won't spoil it. But it's a fantastic biography of Doc Spears, too. I just wanted to point out.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, he's an interesting guy, you know, you played a little pro football too, you know, with the Campbell, like he was a very good pro player before the NFL got established. So, yeah, so that was Yeah, so there's a lot of his backstory, you know, and then obviously coach Bronko, you know, at the University of Minnesota.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, it's in Minnesota; it's really interesting. I didn't realize that this was an issue until you pointed it out in a book. It's something I learned from the book that, you know, he was, uh, you know, you're the title, you have, you know, being a two-way player at fullback. Well, his problem or not a problem, I guess it's a good problem to have because he was so good at a couple of different positions on offense in college that Doc Spears had a decision to make, and maybe if you could chat a little bit about that.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, he was, I mean, as big as he was, you think, oh, he's going to be a line, but he was so athletic, and he was so, not only was he big and strong, but he was so athletic and so gifted, you know, you know, you know, catching the ball, running the ball. Like, you know, he started out really as an end, you know, in his early varsity career, and then he played tackle, and then he has moved the fullback, you know, so he could play a variety of positions, you know, although he was 6 '2", you know, 225, maybe at the time. He was very athletic and very gifted. You know, with the way he could run, you know, he was just not a big lumbering guy. So, so Doc had a little bit, you know, he, pretty much up to, you know, I think his sophomore year, Bronko, like he had Herb Josting there, who was a very good fullback who did play the NFL. So, he was a senior. So he actually got a lot of the playing time early, and that's why he needed to find a different position. He played him an end, played him a tackle, but once Josting left, you know, Bronko was the logical choice to play fullback, and, you know, he didn't look back from there. He was one of the best fullbacks in the country and, obviously, in the NFL. So, but very versatile, you know, Bronko, you could have played, you know, tackle or end in the NFL too and probably would have been, you know, all pro.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, it's extremely something, like I said. It's something I wasn't aware of in college, and he excelled at both. So, you know, the other thing I thought was really interesting that sort of along that same line is his senior year, you know, there's maybe you could just talk about he played one of those positions a little bit more than the other. And what happened with the All-American honors?

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, his senior year, he pretty much is starting full back. But because the most important games were the conference games, it was a West Conference, but it was what would be the Big 10. So, so early on, Doc had a little bit of injuries and some inexperience on the line. So he actually played Bronko in some of those nonconference games at tackle, but not a lot. He did not play tackle very much. But once the conference game started, he back at fullback, he played fullback, you know, it was great at fullback. And so, most of the newspapers and immediate outlets at the time were putting Bronko at fullback as an all-American. But there were a few, and I believe New York's son was the big one who actually put him at tackle. So he actually, although he did not play tackle very much during the season, they're like, he was so good, let's name him All-American as a tackle. So he actually played, and he was named for two different positions in one season. So very unique, even at that time.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that's really unique. And that just tells you the talent level that the man had, you know, at both positions to be that well respected across the country. So very interesting indeed. OK, so what happened? He plays in his final game, which is sort of a meeting of different things in his life. It's sort of a pinnacle moment that the final game, I believe it was against Wisconsin, if I'm not mistaken, at when he played at Minnesota. And he had, you know, some things going on. Maybe you could just talk about that a bit.

Chris Willis:
Uh, you're talking about plane-wise or, well, his.

Darin Hayes:
Uh, I believe that was the only game his parents saw or the first game his parents played.

Chris Willis:
what was the game before? OK, OK, I'm sorry. Yeah, his senior year. He played. Minnesota played Michigan, and his parents had never seen them play. And it was. So they came down from international fall, the whole family, and they saw him play against Michigan. He ended up losing, you know, a tough game. So Bronko wasn't in a great mood. But because the whole town wasn't just a family. It was like, I think, well over 200 people from International Falls came down to see this game because it was going to be his last home game. And so they had a banquet at the local hotel there. And one of his sisters brought a friend who was actually three years younger than her, you know, but they were pretty good friends. It turns out to be Eileen Cain, who ends up being the woman who marries Bronko, the girl. So that's where they first meet. And Bronko, you know, you know, is infatuated with her. And then obviously, you know, over the next, you know, five or six years, you know, they act across paths because of the international falls, and they end up getting married. So. So that's, yeah, a very fun weekend for him, even though he lost his loss. And then the following week against Wisconsin, like you mentioned, that was his last game, and he wasn't going to lose that game. And so he went out, and then he actually single-handedly helped defeat, you know, the Badgers, and he went out sort of as a winner in his last game. So, but that sort of homecoming sort of family thing, it definitely at the University of Minnesota was a huge weekend for him.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that has a great story, you know, the irony of, you know, the sour defeat and, you know, it sounded like he took it hard, but then, you know, seeing his family and friends there to support him and then meeting his future wife. That's a spectacular ending to what started off not so good for him earlier in the day. So tremendous. So, how did it happen with Bronko after he graduated from Minnesota?

Chris Willis:
Well, he didn't actually graduate. So, he was still taking classes. But at the end of his senior season, he actually was invited to play in a prestigious all-star game that was just getting started on the West Coast. It's the old east-west shrine game that I believe was still around; you know, it bounced around on the West Coast and was mainly played in San Francisco. Well, at the time, this was starting to become one of the better, more key games, especially football games, so they invited seniors to play. And he made the Eastern team to play in that game, you know, and then Bob Tanner was another teammate of his, you know, also played in that game. So, so this is where he sort of gets the, you know, the itch to play pro ball, you know, he's like, OK, I think I can compete, I think, you know, I think I can play. So the east team actually practices for two or three days in Chicago first, before they go out to San Francisco, you know, well, at this time, this is January or end of December 1929. Well, of course, this is George Halas' territory. So Hallis, you know, lights that these this team are practicing there. So he gets, you know, the inside scoop, and he goes and sees the team practices. Obviously, he's very infatuated with Bronko, his running style, and his physicality. And he's like, so he talks to them, say, hey, if you're willing to play, like when you get back from the all-star game, let's talk and, you know, we'll talk salary or, you know, because I want you for the bears. So, you know, Bronkos intrigued, like, OK, you know, you know, I think there's a few other teams that are, you know, writing to them. But so he goes out and plays in San Francisco, and it turns out to be a really good game for him. He's probably the best player in the field, you know, even with Dutch Clark. Dutch Clark also played in that same game. So, so then when he comes back, obviously, you know, Hallis makes the big push. And, you know, Nagurski, you know, likes what he sees. And he ends up signing with the Bears.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, interesting. You mentioned Dutch Clark; of course, if you look on Amazon and your publisher, you have a book out on Dutch Clark as well that you wrote a few years back. So just want to mention that, which is also very interesting. OK, so he eventually signs on with Halas and plays in a couple of really interesting games during his career. And maybe if you could just highlight a couple of those that, you know, I know we've talked about, but they're so interesting. He's an integral part of them.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, he's right at that pivotal point where, you know, the NFL, although it's the depression, the 1930s, his rookie year, you know, the NFL is starting to grow, they're starting to think, you know, we need to be in the big cities, and we need to be thinking as a business. So he comes along at the right time when the NFL is sort of on the rise. And some of these games are very important, you know, and even now, you know, you know, you know, 95 years late, like, these are some of the most important games in the NFL history. The first one was mainly in 1932 when the Bears and the Spartans tied. The Port Spartans are now the Detroit Lions, but they were a small-town team in Ohio at the time, and they tied for the title, or they tied for first place, but there's, you know, there's no championship game in the NFL, you know, it's a team with the best record. So they decide to play a playoff game, but then there's a snowstorm in Chicago the week of the game. And it's just a massive snowstorm. So they move the game indoors to Chicago Stadium, but it's a small field, you know, so Bronko plays, he actually throws the only touchdown, he throws a touchdown pass to Red Grange for the only touchdown, and the Bears win nine to nothing. But it opened the eyes of the NFL like, hey, we need to have hash marks, we need to throw from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage, which you had to be five yards behind the line of scrimmage; it was a rule at the time college football made these rules. So they're like, no, let's separate from college football. So Bronko was part of that game, and that sort of separated, and then they split the NFL into two divisions and created the NFL championship game, kind of like the World Series with the American and National League in 1933. So, the Bears win the Western division in that first championship season, and they play the Giants in Wrigley Field, and Bronko has another great game. He throws two jump pass touchdowns, including the game-winner in the last couple of minutes, and they win 23 -21. So, like I said, and then the next year, in 1934, they won the division again, they played in New York, and this was the famous sneaker game. He actually plays really well, but you know, the Giants put the sneakers on in the second half, and they actually won. So there's three consecutive years he plays in, like you said, three of the most important, uh, you know, games in the NFL history, the indoor game, the first NFL championship game, and then the sneaker game, uh, all in a row. And you know, so he's, uh, and there's more of that in the book, you know, but you know, these sorts of games and what went on and stuff. So, he definitely was a big part of the early history of the NFL.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, and well, the first and the last of those teams you talked about had quite a bit of controversy surrounding him, too, where the team on the losing end wasn't so happy about a few things. But can you cover those in the book? And that's an interesting story, which is all to themselves. But he thought he ended up only playing had a short NFL career due to some circumstances that he had another career move. And maybe you could speak about that just a bit.

Chris Willis:
Sure. You know, I mean, he actually did play eight years or the first eight years of his career. So, it is actually a decent-sized career at the time. But in 1937, I mean, he was still playing really well in the NFL, but he had picked up professional wrestling a couple of years earlier. And, you know, although he had not known quite much about wrestling, but had a name, you know, he had the physicality, you know, he's a big guy that fit wrestling. And he didn't necessarily have the best, you know, the greatest personality, you know, he was a quiet guy and stuff. So maybe the flair of it, you know, he had to be taught a little bit more. But he became a very good championship wrestler, a caliber wrestler. He was making more money wrestling than he did with the Bears. You know, obviously, as I said, this was still the depression, and the house is still trying to manage, you know, the team, keep this team together, and try to pay him as much as he could. However, he was making more money than by 1937, the spring of 37. He's sort of at the top of the list of challengers for the heavyweight, you know, championship in wrestling. And he wins it in the summer of 37. And then if you're the if you're the actually the world championship wrestler of the world, you have a commitment to a schedule. So it's very unique. And like I said, the book goes into detail about this; I call it the double duty where the spring and summer he's wrestling all over the place, you know, you know, two or three times a week, he's defending this title, he's making, you know, a decent amount of money more than you would, you know, with the Bears, you know, like, you know, two or three times more than he would for the Bears. So he's keeping on the schedule. But, you know, his wrestling manager knew he wanted to play football in 37. So, in the fall of 37, he does something that I think is just so incredible. He's wrestling, sometimes during the week, and then he's playing football on Sundays. You know, he did that early in the season. And then he kind of scaled-down, you know, at the end of October or November, and then he just played football because that was the meat of the NFL schedule, and he housed one of the folks on football. But he's doing this double duty. And like I said, there were some times where he would wrestle, you know, on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and travel back to Chicago on Saturday, and they play on Sunday, and then be back out on the road wrestling, you know, and so just a tremendous athletic event to be able to do both. And then unfortunately, as I said, after the 37 seasons, he decides, like, if the house can't meet his salary demands, which wasn't very much, I think he's making like, he's back up to 5000 a year, and he just wanted six or 7000. And house wanted to stay at, and he's just so I'm gonna go wrestle, and then he ended up his first retirement, he did come back in 1943 when the war was going on, but he had missed six years, and he just played tackle. He had some injuries, but he did help the Bears win a title in 43. During the war, but so those first eight years, and then that was his ninth year in 1943. But like I said, that 37 season was just a tremendous achievement.

Darin Hayes:
Those are some pretty demanding jobs when you're moonlighting as a football player, especially during the rough-and-tumble era that he played in. And you're also doing some pro wrestling, which is pretty physically grueling, too. And you're doing those multiple evenings a week. And wow, that's a pretty tremendous athlete. Did he suffer any injuries during that earlier time? I know you said in 43; he did when he came back.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, no, I mean, he had, I think in 35, a back injury that kept him out a lot. Like he had, obviously, when you're playing football and you're playing wrestling, you're going to come across things. And, and it did affect him a little bit later with some arthritis and some joint injuries, you know, later in his life. But I think it was more like that: just wear and tear your professional athlete, you're doing football, and you're doing wrestling, and you're going to have some bumps and bruises along the way.

Darin Hayes:
That's amazing to have the fortitude to be able to do that. I just can't imagine that. That's pretty tremendous. Well, Chris, we appreciate you coming on here and talking about Bronko. And maybe if you could again, maybe if you want to share some of your social media and again, let us know where folks can get the book and the title of the book again.

Chris Willis:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's Bronko, the legendary story of the NFL's greatest two-way fullback. You can get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, like I said, where Rowan and Littlefield are the publishers, so you can go to Rowan.com and pick it up there, too. And there are reviews and features on the publisher's website. So, if you want to check out a little bit more about the book, it's there. So, like I said, it's an entertaining story about a guy who, you know, like I said, has a big personality and a tremendous athletic career.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah. Folks, it is a fantastic book. Make sure you get a copy of it. And did you want to share your social media as well?

Chris Willis:
Yeah, it's CDWillis83 on Twitter, so there's more stuff on Bronko, you know, that post, and a lot about early NFL history, too. So

Darin Hayes:
Well, Chris Willis:, we appreciate you and appreciate everything you're doing during your day job too, as well as what you're doing here with these fantastic books and we're hoping you're going to write some more about this great era because you were, you have some great ones out so far. So folks, make sure you go to Amazon and just look up Chris Willis:'s name and you'll see the big rundown of all these great historical football books.

Chris Willis:
Oh, no, I appreciate it, Darin. And it's always nice to be on the show and talk a little football history.

Transcribed by Notta.AI

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Joe Ziemba, the author of numerous books, including the famous When Football was Football: The Chicago Cardinals and the Birth of the NFL, gives a foreshadow of his upcoming novel Bears versus Cardinals: The NFLs Oldest Rivalry. Joe is the host of the When Football was Football Podcast and has an earlier written book of the same name, among various other works. Ziemba Written Book


-Transcript of Joe Ziemba on his Bears vs Cardinals book

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And we have a great interview session tonight. We're gonna talk to our friend. It's the author of multiple books on football, especially Chicago area football. That's Joe Ziemba, and his latest book is out. Bears versus Cardinals, the NFL's oldest rivalry. It is a very interesting title and a very interesting topic. Very interesting author. We'll bring them in right now. Joe Ziemba, welcome back to the Pigpen.

Joe Ziemba
Oh, Darin, thanks so much for having me back again. It's been a while since I saw the pig pen has been remodeled. It looks nice and clean, and really ready and anxious to talk about the Bears and the Cardinals.

Darin Hayes
Hey, we kept your spot open at the trough here at the pig pen, so you're always welcome here. It's been much too long, and that's my fault. I need to have you on more. More Joe is always a good thing.

Joe Ziemba
And we appreciate that. Thanks so much for letting me babble on a few times. So it's it's all good. It's all about the history of pro football.

Darin Hayes
Well, it's probably hard to make an appointment with you because I'm seeing all over social media, and I live, you know, 800 miles away from you. And it seems like you're booked on something almost every evening talking about, you know, the Bears and the Cardinals and your wonderful book. You know, you're on quite the tour-a-lura.

Joe Ziemba
And, you know, people always say they're living the dream. And right now, it is great because the book has come out, and a lot of libraries and different organizations have asked me to talk about the book. And I don't really promote the book. Obviously, I'd like to market it, so that's part of it. But it gives me the opportunity to talk about the Bears and Cardinals. You meet so many interesting people. I gave a talk this week at a library, and an 89-year-old young lady came up and said she was a Bear season ticket holder on the 50-yard line and her cousin knew George Alice. And she knew exactly what I was talking about when we go back to the early fifties in these talks. And even the fact with old photos where the referees were kind of dressed up with a suit and tie and a hat. And she said I remember those guys. So it was, it's kind of neat. You meet different types of people. And I really enjoy that as much as giving the talks.

Darin Hayes
Well, you're definitely hitting a great nerve with the public. I'm sure they're going ecstatic about it up in Chicago. You know, people, the old Cardinals fans are remembering it. Of course, the Bears fans, uh, new and older, probably enjoying hearing this, uh, you know, relishment of, uh, history. And you have quite a bit of history. That's somewhat forgotten, and a lot of people didn't know about it. Um, maybe you could talk about that a little bit. Yeah.

Joe Ziemba
The history of both teams is quite unusual. Both teams had fires in their storage units, and I'm not sure exactly when, Darin, but I think it was in the fifties. And so a lot of the history was lost, which means that history that may have been written before was taken as being the truth. Now, we do have some documentation, for example, with the Bears. George Halas wrote his autobiography, which came out in the early seventies or late sixties, I believe. It first came out in the Chicago Tribune as a multi-day series. But George was writing this stuff many decades after it occurred. And it's not a big deal. It certainly doesn't matter, but there are a few errors in there. One of the bigger ones that I saw was that I questioned whether George Helles and the Decatur Staley's voluntarily left Decatur in 1921. Again, you say, who cares? But as you and I are historians, you kind of enjoy that stuff and that information. And I think it's kind of interesting in the book where we're able to track down why I don't think George Helles left voluntarily. We in Chicago are certainly glad that he did because the Bears are here right now. And there's something similar with the Cardinals. The Cardinal's history just did not make sense when I did my last book a few centuries ago called When Football Was Football because I was looking up as much as I could, and I really kind of went deep in research as much as possible and found out that the dates that the Cardinals continue to publicize are inaccurate. And there's nothing wrong with that. Who cares if we're off a little bit 125 years ago or whatever? It's been fun in this latest book on the rival; I was able to document where the history was stretched a little bit and who did it. And when all that stuff comes together, and you've got a pile of information, you want to make sense of it; I hope that readers will now make sense of the history of both teams and that maybe some of that stuff isn't quite accurate and that we've been led to believe. That includes the date when the Cardinals started and how the team got its name. There are a couple of old stories that, indeed, weren't true. One, for example, said in 1920 that the owner of the Cardinals challenged the Chicago Tigers for the right to represent Chicago, and whoever lost the game would hand over their franchise to the other team. And we found out there's absolutely no truth to that, but it made for a good story. Again, we try to provide the reasons why that was not accurate and what happened after that. So lots of fun. And as you mentioned, people are getting into it. We have a lot of nice discussions at these meetings. Again, last week, a lady in the audience who again had been a season ticket holder came up to me beforehand. This talks about the rivalry and how tough it was back then. She said I hope you're not talking about the Cardinals. I said, well, yeah, it's part of the book. So I have to do that. She said, well, I'm a Bears fan all the way through. And then we'll have older Cardinals fans who remember and say, did Hellas kick them out of Chicago? And I'll say, well, he certainly helped. And part of that reason was George Hellas authorized a half million dollars to the Cardinals in 1960 to leave town. Even though the real reason was the blackouts and the TV rights, which happens when you have a city with two NFL teams at the same time, the only city that had that. So, the Bears did have something to do with the Cardinals leaving the city of Chicago.

Darin Hayes
you bring up a lot of different topics there that are, like, I have interest peaks going all over the place. I'm sure the readers do, too. But maybe let's start at the beginning because, although we found out earlier, I don't read the acknowledgments in books very well. But I do like to read the preface of books. And you have a very interesting opening, and sort of a personal opening, where you talk about a period in your life and a person in your life that sort of helped propel this book.

Joe Ziemba
Exactly, Darren. And it was my dad who played college football. He went to Mount Carmel High School in Chicago and then went to a little place called St. Benedict's in Kansas. At that time, there were no real divisions, either at big schools or small schools. St. Benedict's, which is now Benedictine in Atchison, was considered a smaller school, although they played Creighton in New Mexico State and Wichita State. He was named first-team All-American. After that, he apparently received a lot of letters from places like George Ellis, the Bears, and the Detroit Lions. There was a draft in place. And he did get drafted by the Cardinals in the 12th round, I think of the 1940 draft. But he never talked about his football experience. He was a coach. And he's actually inspired all three of my books because of coaching and his experience. But I've always wanted to find out more about what happened. And ultimately, he got injured in training camp. I found a magazine where he made the final roster; I think it was 32 players at the time. But it would have been a simple arthroscopic surgery now. But then he figured, why go through the pain? And besides, Darren could make more money coaching high school football than he could as a professional football player in the National Football League back in the 40s. So here's my question, Darin: what do you think this contract called for in terms of payment?

Darin Hayes
Oh, let's see. We're talking, um, so be the Cardinals, and in 1940, you said, yes, yes. Pre World War II. I'm going to say, uh, a hundred bucks a game.

Joe Ziemba
right there. The rookie contract called for $110 a game. But they had to provide their own shoulder pads and cleats. So maybe it did come down to 100. And they didn't get paid if they missed a game because of injury. So, that is all the more reason for him to check out of the hospital and become a high school coach. But yeah, great guess, great guess

Darin Hayes
Oh, the other thing that piqued my interest was that you talked about these fires that both the Cardinals and the Bears had; you know, it was two separate fires, right? It wasn't; they didn't keep all their records in the same place, and there was a fire.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, they have different headquarters. And so, uh, someday it's one of those things we always say as researchers, I want to look into then see if I can define exactly when the dates were for those, but, uh, without a lot of the records and we're going by hearsay or things that have been published through the years that have just taken his truth and, and more so for the Cardinal side than the bears, uh, we found out that a lot of this information started in the forties or fifties about that game between the Cardinals and the Tigers, for example, and about how the team got its name, you know, one of the things that always has kind of bugged me was it said that crystal Brian, the owner of the Cardinals in 1899, when the team started, uh, bought used jerseys from the University of Chicago named a Solonzo stag, and stagged and not liked the idea of professionalism. He caused a big bruja in the early twenties by syndicating a national letter talking about how evil professional football was, but I wanted to see it for sure. And I was able to, uh, see if the jerseys match; first of all, Crystal Brian was 17 or 18 years old. He certainly didn't own the team, and Stagg was unlikely to sell jerseys, but I had a chance to go to the University of Chicago, which keeps extensive records of coach Stagg's, uh, all those financial dealings, and this correspondence, I could not find anything, which doesn't mean much, but they did have photos. I do have a photo of the Cardinals in 1900 when they were known as the Morgan athletic club, and the photos don't match, even though they're not in color. So that's the kind of research that has helped me to understand that there might be little errors here and there as we move through history. Again, it doesn't affect the team today, but we're not changing history, but kind of correcting it or adjusting it a little bit.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I always thought that story was kind of odd, too, because, you know, the Chicago, of course, was the maroon. So, I'm assuming they probably had a maroon-colored Jersey. And you know, they've come up with a Cardinal red out of that out of the maroon. I just don't get that either. That doesn't make much sense either.

Joe Ziemba
Oh, that's why when the team started in 1901, it was called the Cardinal Social and Athletic Club, not named after a bird or a uniform and crystal Brian certainly didn't own the team, although he and his brother and one other gentleman started the first version of the Cardinals in 1899. But yeah, Maroons does not match Cardinal Red, at least in my opinion, Darren.

Darin Hayes
All right. Now, George Hallis is always an interesting subject. You know, I have sort of a love-hate relationship. I don't know if everybody else does, but I have a sort of love-hate relationship. I look through him through history. You know, there are some things that he did that were just spectacular, both as him as an athlete, and some of the great things that he did is starting the NFL and, you know, keeping Decatur and Chicago, those teams, going and what he did for the game, but other things, you know, I sit there, and I look at some of these sorts of sly little maneuvers he would make to put the Bears in title contention, you know, you know, back, you know, there's probably at least three or four stories where the Bears were in second place, and he sort of tried to swindle or did swindle another team into playing an extra game to try to gain an advantage for his team, which you can't blame a guy for doing. It just seems a little bit underhanded by today's standards.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, and a good example would be Buffalo. I believe that was 1921 when the Bears invited Buffalo to come to Chicago. Um, supposedly for an exhibition game, and somehow the league counted the game, which the Bears won as a regular season game, even though there are two or three reasons why it shouldn't have been considered, but back then, there were no playoffs, the league champion was decided by a vote of the owners at the end of the season, factually the next year. And so in the book, what I've tried to do to present all sides is to have some of the authors who have written on that, like Jeff Miller, has written extensively on Buffalo, and get his opinion. He was helpful in providing some articles from the Buffalo newspapers. And we see that along the way, even with red grains, um, joining the Bears in 1925, the day after he finished his college career. And the rule was that the pros weren't going to touch the college players. And with the assumption that, yeah, he could sign them once their class graduated, of course, Hallis took it as well. Red Grange finished his college career on Saturday. On Sunday, he was with the Bears, although Chris Willis, I think you've talked to a few times, who wrote the exceptional, uh, biography of Red Grange, tells us that, yeah, the maneuvers were going on well before that Saturday after Grange's final game. Then, we also tell a story about Joseph Aldi in 1930, a rookie out of Notre Dame who committed a terrible, grievous crime. Can you guess what he did during your Notre Dame fan?

Darin Hayes
The name and the story sound familiar, but I can't put my finger on what he did.

Joe Ziemba
Well, what he did was terrible. He got married. You couldn't get married in Notre Dame. And remain it's, you know, they got kicked off the football team, but out of school. So Curly Lambeau was searching around for that to bring Joseph Aldi up to Green Bay, and Alice was there as well. And supposedly, there was some backroom talk that both would lay off Joseph Aldi, the same argument: his class didn't graduate. Alice interpreted that as well. He played his final game, and he can't play anymore anyway. So I'll sign them. He signed them to a $4,000 contract, second only to Bronko Nagurski's $5000 a year. And, of course, that brought up some hard feelings. The NFL did get involved. Halis and Savaldi, I guess, decided he was going to make more money as professional wrestlers. But Dallas, as you mentioned the questions, there are two or three examples of where he may have stretched the truth a little bit. But what a fantastic man, and what a great coach and player he was for many years till he retired in his late 20s. And all he did to keep football going, as he said once, he didn't know if he could take any money out of the team. He and Dutch Sternaman, who was his partner, wanted to give each other $100 a game back in the early 20s if they had $100 left. Of course, now the Bears are worth $ 5.2 billion. So Halis did something right.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's a good investment on his part. Now, that brings up another question, something that I've always had a little bit of. You know, Mr. A. E. Staley was the original sponsor of the team with his starch company, I believe you're in. Halas was a player and coach, I believe, in the very first year of the end of the APFA 1920. Right? Am I correct so far? You are. Yep. Okay. So when they came through the next year of the year after, when Staley sort of washed his hands off the team, he gave the team $5,000 to Hallis.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, that is correct. And that was midway through 1921. Alice had toyed with playing games in Chicago in 1920, and then in 1921, others were scheduled to draw a bigger crowd. From my recollection, the home games in Decatur, Illinois, could only seat about 1500 people. And so for Staley, this was a great investment if you look at it as a pure marketing endeavor, where his team was mentioned in newspapers all over the country as the league started to get more publicity. But I think he was drowning and lost in expenses with sponsoring teams. He had a baseball team that traveled all over and, of course, football, and the players worked at the Staley company. Alice worked out a deal with Mr. Staley, where the football team could practice a couple hours a day on company time. So it was a great deal for them. But in that letter in 1921, way at the bottom of it, it says, and please be understood, as he's saying to Alice, once you leave Decatur, don't come back is essentially what Mr. Staley said. So, in the book, I've kind of worked on that and found some other quotes, and as you might see, as you read through it, I don't think George Hallis left Decatur voluntarily. In fact, I'm pretty certain of it, and I tried to lay out the reasons and the proof of why that might have happened. But yeah, it was a great deal for a while. And then, unfortunately, the Staley's dropped in January of 22, I believe, all their sports, and a lot of the townspeople and, of course, some of the employees who were working or playing on those teams were quite upset. A cartoon appeared, which is in the book as well, that showed the different products produced by the Staley company. They were kind of pushed aside because Mother Staley was holding the football and the new baby and giving preference over the other children from the company.

Darin Hayes
Now, why do you think that he, that Mr. Staley gave, given the teams, one thing that's, I mean, probably a decent expense right there? Maybe it was just to get rid of him having to spend money, but why give Alice, you know, the sum of $ 5,000, which was pretty good money back in the early 20th century?

Joe Ziemba
Absolutely. Yeah. 5,000 was a lot of money and got Hellas through the season. But I think that was to really encourage Hellas to take the team, and they defined it as being advertising money because the team would be known as the Chicago Staley's. Even though they completed the 1921 season in Chicago, they kept the name Staley's. It wasn't until 1922 that the Chicago Bears were incorporated, which was a whole different story. It was through the fiasco of Hellas trying to incorporate the team or even having a franchise in the league that the NFL finally recognized him. But yeah, the $5,000, I think, was to really encourage George Hellas and the football team to go away and not come back.

Darin Hayes
Oh, okay. So not only naming rights, but yeah, get out of Dodge, go to Chicago, or go elsewhere. Anyway. Okay. Interesting. Well, let's take a break. I mean, that's some great news. Those are some great things in the book. Let's take the opportunity to, once again, say the name of your book and where folks can get it, Joe.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, the name of the book is Bears versus Cardinals, the NFL's oldest rivalry. It's from McFarland; you can order directly from the publisher or the usual online sources like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Target, which all carry the book. So it's pretty easy to get online.

Darin Hayes
Okay, now you have it called Bears versus Cardinals. So obviously, they played some games against each other, and there was a rivalry, I'm assuming when they both played in the same town. Maybe you could hit some of the highlights of some of the big games and rivalry-type things that happened between these two franchises.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, I tried to go back because every time I do research and I'd see a Bears-Cardinals game, it still seems to end up in a fight or fight among the stands in the stands or fight on the field, or everybody combined and had a good time getting into a fight. So, I wanted to find out where the rivalry started. And actually, it centers around Paddy Driscoll, P A D D Y, who was a halfback out of Northwestern and actually played outfield one season for the Chicago Cubs. And, of course, since he was still in college, he lost his college eligibility. He played in the Great Lakes Naval Station team that won the 1919 Rose Bowl. He and George Halas later played for the Hammond Pros in 1919. So the reason I'm telling you this is that Halas and Driscoll had a nice relationship as players. Driscoll functions as a quarterback. Halas is the end. Halas was the MVP of the 1919 Rose Bowl. But when the pro league started in 1920, there was great excitement when Halas was recruiting all these players for the Staley's because he signed the legendary Patty Driscoll. And that was great news: a big name came to Decatur. And then, quietly, about a week later, the newspapers reported Patty Driscoll signed with the Chicago Cardinals, then known as the racing Cardinals. So Halas may have been a little upset with the Cardinals, but his pursuit of Driscoll never stopped. In the early part of 1922, we learned from the newspaper, from the paperwork that I found with the state of Illinois, that Hallis not only recruited Driscoll to play for him but made him an owner with Hallis and Dutch Sterneman of the newly incorporated Chicago Bears. Of course, Chris O 'Brien, who by then was the manager of the Cardinals, went nuts and went to the league because one of the reasons for starting the NFL was to prohibit or eliminate players jumping from team to team. And Hallis was given a slap on the wrist and told that now you couldn't touch Patty Driscoll; he was the property of the Cardinals, which he was. At the time, the highest-paid player in the league was $300 a game, while some of the players were still getting $25 or even $10. So the story didn't end there because in November, Thanksgiving day in 1922, I think you and I have talked about this before, Bears and the Cardinals played, and Halas and Joey Sterneman, the brother of Dutch Sterneman, not only tackled Driscoll but picked him up and head slammed him into the ground. And that led to quite a ride on the field. Fans got involved, and the police got involved. The story appeared in the newspapers about George Hallis being knocked down, and a fan was straddling him with a pistol pushed up against George Hallis' head. And so it just seemed like every time the teams played, there'd be some kind of fiasco. In fact, it was rare. And the other thing about the rivalry, and this is, we talked about Crystal Bryan going nuts. I go nuts when I watch television when the Bears and the Packers play. And it said the NFL's oldest rivalry. And that happened again, most recently, but it was the Bears and the Cardinals. When the Bears were the Stalies and the Cardinals were still the racing Cardinals, they played the year before the Packers even entered the league. But that's not the reason I wrote the book. I just found the stories on both sides so fascinating that it went from a competition. It was mostly the players who didn't like each other. You can even find Ernie Nevers talking about 1929, scoring 40 points against the Bears, which is still an NFL record for one game, and why he did it. And you go into the fifties with Ed Sprinkle, the Bears, and Charlie Trippi taking turns knocking each other out on the field. Fans are jumping. I think it was 1957 or 58, jumping on the field to join in a fight. And even when the Cardinals ended up in Chicago, they moved to March of 1960. But at the end of 58, they wanted to play at Dyke Stadium, Northwestern University, and Hallis invoked an old, old agreement that absolutely no one in Chicago would hear of called the Madison Street Agreement. And that simply stated the Cardinals could not play north of Madison Street, which ran east-west in Chicago, and the Bears could not play south. With this agreement, Erp Bell, who was a commissioner at the time, ruled that now they'd have to support the Bears, and the Cardinals could not move to Northwestern. And some great help on that one because Upton Bell, the son of Burt Bell, was just very gracious with his time and gave me some insight. And the Pro Football Hall of Fame had the minutes from the meeting. Just again, the rivalry started right then, in 1920 or so, and went to when the Cardinals left. So there's plenty of activity sandwiched in between.

Darin Hayes
That's tremendous. You said that the Cardinals left in 1959. Is that what you said?

Joe Ziemba
1960 marks of 60. Yeah.

Darin Hayes
Okay, and that you said to Halas, I think you just said at the beginning of this conversation that Halas gave money to them to encourage them to leave.

Joe Ziemba
Yes. And it's been in the newspapers that there are a couple of things they were concerned about. One was that the new American Football League was getting involved in Chicago or stealing the Cardinals and moving them somewhere, possibly St. Louis, where the Cardinals were not making money. That's pretty much accepted. And so at least the newspapers at the time said, and more than one resource said, that George Halas gave the Cardinals $500,000 to assist them with moving expenses. That gave him the rights to all the television showings in Chicago; games were blacked out if one team was playing at home and the other was away. A goofy role, but it lasted for years and years. And that was primarily why the Cardinals left town, although the Halas financial incentive certainly helped them.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I mean, 1960, half a million dollars is a good chunk of change. That's probably very encouraging for a franchise to move. You know, it's peanuts today. That's probably what they pay the guy who launders the shirts nowadays in the NFL. But yeah, it's very interesting. So, Joe, you know, it is tremendous that you were able to come on here and talk about this, and I'm so glad that you were able to write this book and record this because your research is impeccable. And your storytelling is everybody loves it. Make sure folks listen to Joe's podcast. He's on a couple of times a month. You have a podcast.

Joe Ziemba
Right, yeah. Well, we're just talking a little bit about our network.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, what can you tell them about the podcast?

Joe Ziemba
Well, the podcast is called When Football Was Football. And what we talk about is any kind of old football in Chicago; it's the Bears and the Cardinals, but we've talked about a high school a couple of times and maybe a couple of college things. And some of the individuals you may not have heard about, we've talked about Shorty Ray a couple of weeks ago, who really revised the way officiating is done in the National Football League. This week's episode talks about Jack Glynn, who is one of the resources I had for this game. He was a 19-year-old general manager of the Cardinals back in 1919, a great story. His family had kept his documents for over a hundred years. In fact, his niece, I believe it would be, is a nun and a missionary in Bolivia. And she was the one who uncovered these documents after all these years. You know, and speaking of documents, before we go on, Darin, I wanna mention my personal thanks to John Kendall and the Pro Football Hall of Fame. A lot of what we talk about is based on the Dutch Sterneman papers. In the Sterneman papers, Sterneman was George Halas's partner from the 1920s until the early 30s. The family kept all the Bears' financial records at that time. That's what Sternemann did. So we know what the salaries were. And I talked earlier about Bronco Nogersky and Joe Savaldi, the contracts for different games, and even how much a mechanic in the North side of Chicago who was paid $4 a game plus a pass to go scout for the Bears back then. And so I was able to use a ton of stuff. Thanks again to John Kendall and the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which is probably, in my opinion, the greatest collection they have, which is the Sternemann papers.

Darin Hayes
Wow. You get to actually go into the Hall of Fame and use the research facility when you're doing research.

Joe Ziemba
for your book, correct? Yes, yes. The Hall of Fame has always been very receptive. I don't know why they let me in, but they do. And the sternum and papers came out for a couple of years. They were kind of off base. The reason why was that the Hall of Fame was categorizing everything. And so now they've all been put in boxes. There's a nice index of what is where, and it made it really easy. I was also able to make copies of the documents that were specific to my research. So John Kendall has been there every step of the way as an archivist at the Hall of Fame. And I just can't thank him enough. And a lot of other people helped as well. Chris Willis from NFL Films. You've always been encouraging. I mentioned Jeff Miller, Upton Bell, and John Steffenhagen, who's an expert on the Rochester Jeffersons. A lot of great folks have been able to help out with this research. So, I thank them publicly.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, no, I guess maybe we'll put you mentioning all those names. Maybe we should put a little bit of a plug-in for the PFRA, the Professional Football Research Association. We are going to be having a meeting in 2023 in Pittsburgh, where pro football started. George Bizika and the gang are organizing this great venture to take that down there. So, if folks, if you're interested in real professional football history and some great things, we had a big meeting last year in Canton at the Hall of Fame and some places around our Maslin and the city of Canton. But, you know, this Pittsburgh trip seems to be very intriguing as well, and it is full of football history going back to the La Trobe Athletic Clubs and things like that. So, I know they have some great guests lined up and some great events. If you're interested in that, you can contact us here at Pigskin Dispatch, which is pigskindispatch@gmail.com, or go to the PFRA website. And I believe it's professional football researchers dot org. I think I might have that off, but it's something like that. But yeah, we'd like to see you, and you will meet folks. Usually, Joe's there. I'm there. You know, he talked about Jeff Miller and possibly Chris Willis might be there. There are a lot of people who usually show up, including football historians and experts in the field. And it's just some great camaraderie. And you get to rub elbows with some really knowledgeable people about football.

Joe Ziemba
It is a great time. And again, all you gotta do is for me because I can't remember all the letters. I go P F R A, and it usually shows up, and the website is open to nonmembers as well. So, if you want to look around there, there is a member section that you have to remember, obviously, to take a look at. But we're expecting a great, great meeting next year. George, as you mentioned, and Darin always do a wonderful job of putting it together. And he's also the mastermind behind the book series that the PFRA has been putting out for the last few years.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, absolutely. Great. A lot of great resources. And when it's saying a membership fee, it's very inexpensive. I believe it's like $35, $40 a year. And I think the whole weekend, the three-day weekend, is like $75 if you remember next, next summer. It is so very affordable. You know, of course, your room and meals are separate. I think they do include one or two meals in there, too, for $75, but it is well worth the money. The history you get to see, experience, and learn about is especially phenomenal.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, it's something I've always enjoyed attending, and it's almost like Disneyland for football people who love their history. Every time you turn around and take breaks in the hallway, you are able to talk to folks who just have that passion and that love of pro football history. It's it's really exceptional.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Joe, I really appreciate you coming on here. Why don't we give the folks one more time the name of your book and where they can get it? And if you want to share any social media that you have

Joe Ziemba
Oh, thanks so much, Darin. Yeah, the book is called Bears versus Cardinals, the NFL's oldest rivalry, available from McFarland books or Amazon pride to be the two easiest places. I also have a Twitter account, which is called Cards Chicago, and a Facebook account for Chicago Cards; if you want to just look up Chicago Cards, there are over 12,000 people now who follow the Chicago Cardinals Facebook. Again, we take great pleasure in uncovering those types of stories that you may not see very often. And so we'd invite you to join us and continue our investigation, our history, and our enjoyment of old-time professional football.

Darin Hayes
Well, Joe Ziemba, you know, is a historian, podcaster, and author. We thank you once again for sharing your great knowledge and your stories and your time with us again tonight.

Joe Ziemba
And thank you so much, Darin, for all you're doing to protect and preserve the history of football. In fact and, your podcasts are amazing. I don't know how you do it, but congratulations, keep up the good work. And thank you so much for having me here.

Darin Hayes
Sure. I think people call it an illness. At least, that's what my wife calls it. Thanks, Joe.

Joe Ziemba
Thank you.

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George Halas wasn't just a football player, coach, or owner; he was an architect, a pioneer, and a godfather. Spanning seven decades, his career intertwined with the very evolution of professional football, leaving an indelible mark on the game we know and love today.

Starting as a versatile athlete in the early 1900s, Halas soon transitioned to coaching, leading teams with his innovative strategies and fierce competitiveness. He co-founded the Decatur Staleys (later renamed the Chicago Bears) in 1920, becoming owner, coach, and even player at times. He revolutionized the game with tactics like the T-formation and the "man in motion," forever changing the offensive landscape.

Halas wasn't just building a team; he was building a league. He was pivotal in establishing the National Football League (NFL) in 1920, serving as its president for multiple terms and shaping its rules and structure. He was a shrewd businessman, securing television deals and driving the league's financial growth.

His influence extended beyond the field. He advocated for player safety, fought for racial equality, and even served as a Navy officer during World War II. He became a symbol of integrity and leadership, earning the respect of players, coaches, and fans alike.