Football History

Hailing from Canada, Bronko Nagurski carved his name in football history with raw power and fierce determination. At the University of Minnesota, he dominated both sides of the field, earning All-American honors and solidifying his legend. Joining the Chicago Bears in 1930, he became a symbol of their "Monsters of the Midway" era.

Bronko Nagurski's legendary football story is told by NFL Films' Chris Willis. Nagurski bio.

Standing at 6'2" and 235 lbs, Nagurski was a force to be reckoned with. He excelled as a fullback, powering through defenses with unmatched ferocity. His rushing yards remain impressive even by today's standards, and his blocking skills paved the way for teammates' success. But Nagurski wasn't just an offensive weapon. As a defensive tackle, he was equally imposing, shutting down plays with relentless aggression.

His impact went beyond individual stats. Nagurski helped the Bears win two NFL championships and played a key role in their four World Championship appearances. His influence was so profound that some credit him with inspiring the team's iconic nickname. His career wasn't without interruptions, however. Salary disputes and a successful professional wrestling stint led to temporary retirements, but Nagurski always returned to the gridiron, proving his enduring passion for the game.

By the time he finally hung up his cleats in 1943, Nagurski had cemented his place among the game's greats. He became an inaugural inductee into both the College Football and Pro Football Halls of Fame.


-Transcribed Conversation with [b]Chris Willis: on Bronko Nagursk[/b]

Darin Hayes:
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes: of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And we have a great interview lined up today. We're gonna talk to one of our friends, Chris Willis:, who is the head of the NFL Films Library and an author of multiple books. We've had him on here a bunch of times on the program, talking about some of his other books, the book on Joe Carr and the book on Red Grange. He's helped us out with our football numbers before. And he's got a new book out that we're gonna talk about. And I'll let him introduce it to you here in just a moment as we bring in Chris Willis. Welcome back to the Pigpen.

Chris Willis:
Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to be on.

Darin Hayes:
Now, Chris, this is, uh, we were talking a little bit before we came on. This is an extremely busy time of the year for anybody involved in football. But for you particularly, this is, you've got a bunch of things going on. And I don't know if you wanted to say some of those on air to give them a little bit of pub or.

Chris Willis:
Sure. And I mean, if you're a football fan, like I said, you're licking your chops now, you know, college football started this weekend. And like I said, we've been working on Hard Knocks, and we've got one more show and two more shows with Hard Knocks.

Darin Hayes:
It was another outstanding season. You guys hit it out of the park again.

Chris Willis:
And then, you know, the kickoff games, you know, preseason, you know, is wrapping up now. Then we got the kickoff game on September 8th, and then a full week in a football, you know, coming up. So, yeah, so if you're a football fan, you know, it's like I always say, it's good, busy. You know, it's not bad, busy. It's all good, busy, you know, to be involved. So, but now we're, yeah, we're getting close to real games, especially in the NFL. Thanks for watching!

Darin Hayes:
And just when you thought Chris was busy with all that he just mentioned, he's also got a book that just came out. And Chris, if you could give us the title of the book and where folks can get it from, we'll talk about it again later in the program as well.

Chris Willis:
Sure. Yeah, it's a biography. It's a book on Bronko Nagursky, the Bears, the Hall of Fame, and a fullback. So it's called Bronko, the legendary story of the NFL's greatest two-way fullback. And it just was out in the middle of July. So, it's starting to make its rounds. You can get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And then our publisher is Rowan in Littlefield. So if you go on ROWMAN .com, you can pick it up there too. But it was just released last month or so. So.

Darin Hayes:
So yeah, I'm sure your email inbox and telephones are ringing, and everything's extremely busy for you this time of year. So, we really appreciate you coming on and spending a few moments with us to talk about this book.

Chris Willis:
Sure.

Darin Hayes:
Thank you. You know, as one thing I really enjoy about your books and those of the listeners that have read Chris's work is how he goes into the detail in the roots of the subjects that he's talking about. And he does the same in this book and Bronko book, and maybe you could just give us a little bit of background on where Bronko came from I guess first of all let's start off what his, his proper name is his God given name is.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, he was; he was actually born in Canada, just over the Canadian border, you know, in Ontario. So, Bronislaw Nagursky was his full name. But that name was a very difficult to pronounce, you know, as he was growing up, the family early on around, I think it was around five, six years old, he moved from Ontario to International Falls, you know, his father moved the family to International Falls. And so the kids, you know, started playing with him, but they had a hard time pronouncing his name. And so Bronko was a logical sort of Ukrainian nickname that they gave him, and, you know, he actually kept it for the rest of his life. He pretty much went by Bronko. You know, as I said, he sort of stayed in International Falls, even when he became, you know, a great player with the Bears; he became a World Championship wrestler too, in the 30s, he always came back to International Falls and sort of lived pretty much his entire life there, until he passed away in 1990, in that area. So, so that's kind of where he was from, you know, sort of northern Minnesota, you know, up there, you know, near the Canadian border, you know, which was like a sort of tough lifestyle, you know, you know, have like, what, I think Bronko used to say, quote, something like they had, you know, eight months of winter and three months of bad snow or bad sledding, you know, for the rest of the year. So, so he loved it up there, you know, he loved the lake, and he loved being a part of that area, and that sort of, you know, and he got that reputation of being like a pole bunionist, you know, player or personality because of where he was from in International Falls and stuff. So, that's where he sort of got his persona.

Darin Hayes:
Well, it's interesting. You said the Paul Bunyan thing because there's at least one story I've heard about, and I think I've even, uh, said it on, on one of my programs that I, I said, though, I scratched my head. It's a little bit hard to believe. I'm sure there are other ones too about him because he almost is personified as Paul Bunyan, at least in this one story of how he and his, uh, coach at Minnesota, Doc Spears, met now you say a much different way, which I think sounds more like that's probably the truth. Uh, but, uh, have you heard some of these tales?

Chris Willis:
Yeah. I mean, the tale of Spears sort of driving through that area and seeing Bronko plowing the farm field with no horse and then asking for directions and lifting the plow. But that was definitely a story. I mean, I wrote about that in the book where, because of several interviews, Nagersky says, yeah, that was sort of made up, and it was sort of a good banquet story. I mean, he would go with it a little bit and get the chuckle and stuff. But definitely, like I said, part of that sort of Paul Bunyan -esque sort of persona that he got the reputation of.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that was the only thing missing from that story. It was the giant blue ox in the back, you know, I think. So, let's talk a little bit more about him growing up at International Falls from the book because I think it really establishes who Bronko is. And, you know, the family sort of goes through some turmoil and some life-changing moments when he's a child in International Falls. Maybe you could describe that a little bit.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, obviously, this is, you know, early 1900s. So you know, you know, especially in that area, you know, they had some fires, like his father, you know, started out working in the mills, there's some, you know, paper mills and some, you know, mills there in the area, and they had some fires. And so he had to kind of adjust. And then when they moved to International Falls, you know, he sort of started his own business, you know, he had a sort of like a grocery store there that became, you know, had a, you know, housing and stuff like that. So, it was a little bit of a struggle. I mean, I mean, he was never homeless, but yeah, you know, like I said, but that's all he knew, you know, he learned hard work from his dad, you know, at the store, there are several quotes from Nagurski that I found, you know, it's like, you know, he would, you know, he would go to school and then come back and work at the store, he'd make deliveries and the family wagon, you know, you know, you know, to whoever needs it, whether it was food or grain, you know, sugar or whatever, you know, that they had, and things like that. So it was, it was definitely, you know, a country as sort of lifestyle that sort of, you know, that they just made the best of what they did, you know, he had a brother and two other sisters, you know, you know, that he helped take care of too, you know, so he. So he learned, as I said, I think the most important thing he's learned sort of how to how to be a hard worker, and, especially the times on the farm and, and in the mills and things like that, he even did something like he built his body up to be, you know, I mean, he was six to, you know, 235 pounds, like just this chiseled, you know, you know, sort of greed God, you know, you know, and that's how you know, as athlete stuff. So, all that came from this sort of hard-working background with his family.

Darin Hayes:
OK. Yeah, I got that. I mean, if there's an underlying theme to the whole book, it's, you know, the Nagurski family and Bronko emulating that for his whole life. You know, like you said, that hard work and putting in all the effort to get the job done and doing a little bit more. It shows in his football prowess and wrestling, as well, as you define well in the book. It's some great examples of that. So, there are some things I look forward to for the listeners when they pick up the book to read. Now he, you have him playing high school a little bit in international falls. And then, his senior season, he's in high school. He makes a little bit of a change to who he's playing for.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of those sorts of, you know, era things, you know, those sort of vagabond type of things, like they weren't quite as many, you know, hardcore rules, although the Minneapolis high school athletics was, was there or so. But International Falls was definitely a super small town. So they didn't have a lot of boys playing on the team. So they weren't that competitive. They actually didn't really win football games when Bronko was there for a couple of years. And then, before his senior year, there was a team. Most of the teams were like, you know, an hour away because they're so spread out. It was Bemidji was a very good football team. The year before Bronko's junior year, I think they beat international falls like 48 to nothing. Although they could see that Bronko might have been the best player on the field, he just didn't have anything surrounding it, you know. So they sort of kind of recruited was like, hey, if you come to play for us, you could play on the football team and the basketball team. And you'll get, you know, a little more publicity, and you might be able to go play in college, you know, the coach there, you know, kind of promised him that if you want to go play in college, I might be able to get you into college. So he, he asked his parents, and so since his parents weren't gonna, you know, have to pay for anything, he would stay there, he actually, they were gonna get him a job, and he was actually gonna live in the janitor's room, there was gonna be a cat for him in the janitor's room. So he so he goes down there. But International Falls, the athletic director and head coach, really disliked it. So, they actually asked the athletic association to look into this. And it turned out that because he was a transfer, he would actually have to sit out a semester. You know, he did not live in Bemidji. So it turns out that during his senior year, he still went because he said they still needed him for basketball. But all he did was practice, and he did not play in the games. So he didn't actually play in any varsity games during his senior year, and then he ended up playing basketball season; he's graduated from Bemiji, not International Falls High School. So he spent one year there. And then, you know, he sort of graduated, and then he came back to International Falls.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting story, but he didn't play, as you said, he practiced, and you pointed out in your story that some of the things that he, the benefits he got of practicing with a bigger school that was a little bit more established, a coach was a little bit, had a little bit more wherewithal, probably a little bit better program that he learned a lot of things that he probably wouldn't have learned if he stayed at the international falls teams. Is that a true statement?

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, the media was one of the better programs, especially in that area in the state of Minnesota. So he, he had one quote that I found in one of his interviews, like he mentioned, Oh, at that point, I thought I could play in college because I was, I was just as good as some of the players are even better than the players that were on the team. I just didn't get to play, you know, in the games. And so they gave him confidence. Hey, if I do go, you know, to God's, and of course, yeah, he went to the University of Minnesota. He thought he could be competitive and play because of the fall that he spent practicing against a very good team that had some pretty quality players.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, so OK, so you stayed somewhat local and went to the University of Minnesota place for Doc Spears, as we alluded to earlier. And you, by the way, I think you did a magnificent job. I learned a lot about Doc Spears because, just like you did with Bronko, you went back and told the backstory of Doc Spears, where he grew up, and everything. And I'll let the listeners get a copy of the book and do that. We won't spoil it. But it's a fantastic biography of Doc Spears, too. I just wanted to point out.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, he's an interesting guy, you know, you played a little pro football too, you know, with the Campbell, like he was a very good pro player before the NFL got established. So, yeah, so that was Yeah, so there's a lot of his backstory, you know, and then obviously coach Bronko, you know, at the University of Minnesota.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, it's in Minnesota; it's really interesting. I didn't realize that this was an issue until you pointed it out in a book. It's something I learned from the book that, you know, he was, uh, you know, you're the title, you have, you know, being a two-way player at fullback. Well, his problem or not a problem, I guess it's a good problem to have because he was so good at a couple of different positions on offense in college that Doc Spears had a decision to make, and maybe if you could chat a little bit about that.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, he was, I mean, as big as he was, you think, oh, he's going to be a line, but he was so athletic, and he was so, not only was he big and strong, but he was so athletic and so gifted, you know, you know, you know, catching the ball, running the ball. Like, you know, he started out really as an end, you know, in his early varsity career, and then he played tackle, and then he has moved the fullback, you know, so he could play a variety of positions, you know, although he was 6 '2", you know, 225, maybe at the time. He was very athletic and very gifted. You know, with the way he could run, you know, he was just not a big lumbering guy. So, so Doc had a little bit, you know, he, pretty much up to, you know, I think his sophomore year, Bronko, like he had Herb Josting there, who was a very good fullback who did play the NFL. So, he was a senior. So he actually got a lot of the playing time early, and that's why he needed to find a different position. He played him an end, played him a tackle, but once Josting left, you know, Bronko was the logical choice to play fullback, and, you know, he didn't look back from there. He was one of the best fullbacks in the country and, obviously, in the NFL. So, but very versatile, you know, Bronko, you could have played, you know, tackle or end in the NFL too and probably would have been, you know, all pro.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, it's extremely something, like I said. It's something I wasn't aware of in college, and he excelled at both. So, you know, the other thing I thought was really interesting that sort of along that same line is his senior year, you know, there's maybe you could just talk about he played one of those positions a little bit more than the other. And what happened with the All-American honors?

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, his senior year, he pretty much is starting full back. But because the most important games were the conference games, it was a West Conference, but it was what would be the Big 10. So, so early on, Doc had a little bit of injuries and some inexperience on the line. So he actually played Bronko in some of those nonconference games at tackle, but not a lot. He did not play tackle very much. But once the conference game started, he back at fullback, he played fullback, you know, it was great at fullback. And so, most of the newspapers and immediate outlets at the time were putting Bronko at fullback as an all-American. But there were a few, and I believe New York's son was the big one who actually put him at tackle. So he actually, although he did not play tackle very much during the season, they're like, he was so good, let's name him All-American as a tackle. So he actually played, and he was named for two different positions in one season. So very unique, even at that time.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that's really unique. And that just tells you the talent level that the man had, you know, at both positions to be that well respected across the country. So very interesting indeed. OK, so what happened? He plays in his final game, which is sort of a meeting of different things in his life. It's sort of a pinnacle moment that the final game, I believe it was against Wisconsin, if I'm not mistaken, at when he played at Minnesota. And he had, you know, some things going on. Maybe you could just talk about that a bit.

Chris Willis:
Uh, you're talking about plane-wise or, well, his.

Darin Hayes:
Uh, I believe that was the only game his parents saw or the first game his parents played.

Chris Willis:
what was the game before? OK, OK, I'm sorry. Yeah, his senior year. He played. Minnesota played Michigan, and his parents had never seen them play. And it was. So they came down from international fall, the whole family, and they saw him play against Michigan. He ended up losing, you know, a tough game. So Bronko wasn't in a great mood. But because the whole town wasn't just a family. It was like, I think, well over 200 people from International Falls came down to see this game because it was going to be his last home game. And so they had a banquet at the local hotel there. And one of his sisters brought a friend who was actually three years younger than her, you know, but they were pretty good friends. It turns out to be Eileen Cain, who ends up being the woman who marries Bronko, the girl. So that's where they first meet. And Bronko, you know, you know, is infatuated with her. And then obviously, you know, over the next, you know, five or six years, you know, they act across paths because of the international falls, and they end up getting married. So. So that's, yeah, a very fun weekend for him, even though he lost his loss. And then the following week against Wisconsin, like you mentioned, that was his last game, and he wasn't going to lose that game. And so he went out, and then he actually single-handedly helped defeat, you know, the Badgers, and he went out sort of as a winner in his last game. So, but that sort of homecoming sort of family thing, it definitely at the University of Minnesota was a huge weekend for him.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that has a great story, you know, the irony of, you know, the sour defeat and, you know, it sounded like he took it hard, but then, you know, seeing his family and friends there to support him and then meeting his future wife. That's a spectacular ending to what started off not so good for him earlier in the day. So tremendous. So, how did it happen with Bronko after he graduated from Minnesota?

Chris Willis:
Well, he didn't actually graduate. So, he was still taking classes. But at the end of his senior season, he actually was invited to play in a prestigious all-star game that was just getting started on the West Coast. It's the old east-west shrine game that I believe was still around; you know, it bounced around on the West Coast and was mainly played in San Francisco. Well, at the time, this was starting to become one of the better, more key games, especially football games, so they invited seniors to play. And he made the Eastern team to play in that game, you know, and then Bob Tanner was another teammate of his, you know, also played in that game. So, so this is where he sort of gets the, you know, the itch to play pro ball, you know, he's like, OK, I think I can compete, I think, you know, I think I can play. So the east team actually practices for two or three days in Chicago first, before they go out to San Francisco, you know, well, at this time, this is January or end of December 1929. Well, of course, this is George Halas' territory. So Hallis, you know, lights that these this team are practicing there. So he gets, you know, the inside scoop, and he goes and sees the team practices. Obviously, he's very infatuated with Bronko, his running style, and his physicality. And he's like, so he talks to them, say, hey, if you're willing to play, like when you get back from the all-star game, let's talk and, you know, we'll talk salary or, you know, because I want you for the bears. So, you know, Bronkos intrigued, like, OK, you know, you know, I think there's a few other teams that are, you know, writing to them. But so he goes out and plays in San Francisco, and it turns out to be a really good game for him. He's probably the best player in the field, you know, even with Dutch Clark. Dutch Clark also played in that same game. So, so then when he comes back, obviously, you know, Hallis makes the big push. And, you know, Nagurski, you know, likes what he sees. And he ends up signing with the Bears.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, interesting. You mentioned Dutch Clark; of course, if you look on Amazon and your publisher, you have a book out on Dutch Clark as well that you wrote a few years back. So just want to mention that, which is also very interesting. OK, so he eventually signs on with Halas and plays in a couple of really interesting games during his career. And maybe if you could just highlight a couple of those that, you know, I know we've talked about, but they're so interesting. He's an integral part of them.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, he's right at that pivotal point where, you know, the NFL, although it's the depression, the 1930s, his rookie year, you know, the NFL is starting to grow, they're starting to think, you know, we need to be in the big cities, and we need to be thinking as a business. So he comes along at the right time when the NFL is sort of on the rise. And some of these games are very important, you know, and even now, you know, you know, you know, 95 years late, like, these are some of the most important games in the NFL history. The first one was mainly in 1932 when the Bears and the Spartans tied. The Port Spartans are now the Detroit Lions, but they were a small-town team in Ohio at the time, and they tied for the title, or they tied for first place, but there's, you know, there's no championship game in the NFL, you know, it's a team with the best record. So they decide to play a playoff game, but then there's a snowstorm in Chicago the week of the game. And it's just a massive snowstorm. So they move the game indoors to Chicago Stadium, but it's a small field, you know, so Bronko plays, he actually throws the only touchdown, he throws a touchdown pass to Red Grange for the only touchdown, and the Bears win nine to nothing. But it opened the eyes of the NFL like, hey, we need to have hash marks, we need to throw from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage, which you had to be five yards behind the line of scrimmage; it was a rule at the time college football made these rules. So they're like, no, let's separate from college football. So Bronko was part of that game, and that sort of separated, and then they split the NFL into two divisions and created the NFL championship game, kind of like the World Series with the American and National League in 1933. So, the Bears win the Western division in that first championship season, and they play the Giants in Wrigley Field, and Bronko has another great game. He throws two jump pass touchdowns, including the game-winner in the last couple of minutes, and they win 23 -21. So, like I said, and then the next year, in 1934, they won the division again, they played in New York, and this was the famous sneaker game. He actually plays really well, but you know, the Giants put the sneakers on in the second half, and they actually won. So there's three consecutive years he plays in, like you said, three of the most important, uh, you know, games in the NFL history, the indoor game, the first NFL championship game, and then the sneaker game, uh, all in a row. And you know, so he's, uh, and there's more of that in the book, you know, but you know, these sorts of games and what went on and stuff. So, he definitely was a big part of the early history of the NFL.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah, and well, the first and the last of those teams you talked about had quite a bit of controversy surrounding him, too, where the team on the losing end wasn't so happy about a few things. But can you cover those in the book? And that's an interesting story, which is all to themselves. But he thought he ended up only playing had a short NFL career due to some circumstances that he had another career move. And maybe you could speak about that just a bit.

Chris Willis:
Sure. You know, I mean, he actually did play eight years or the first eight years of his career. So, it is actually a decent-sized career at the time. But in 1937, I mean, he was still playing really well in the NFL, but he had picked up professional wrestling a couple of years earlier. And, you know, although he had not known quite much about wrestling, but had a name, you know, he had the physicality, you know, he's a big guy that fit wrestling. And he didn't necessarily have the best, you know, the greatest personality, you know, he was a quiet guy and stuff. So maybe the flair of it, you know, he had to be taught a little bit more. But he became a very good championship wrestler, a caliber wrestler. He was making more money wrestling than he did with the Bears. You know, obviously, as I said, this was still the depression, and the house is still trying to manage, you know, the team, keep this team together, and try to pay him as much as he could. However, he was making more money than by 1937, the spring of 37. He's sort of at the top of the list of challengers for the heavyweight, you know, championship in wrestling. And he wins it in the summer of 37. And then if you're the if you're the actually the world championship wrestler of the world, you have a commitment to a schedule. So it's very unique. And like I said, the book goes into detail about this; I call it the double duty where the spring and summer he's wrestling all over the place, you know, you know, two or three times a week, he's defending this title, he's making, you know, a decent amount of money more than you would, you know, with the Bears, you know, like, you know, two or three times more than he would for the Bears. So he's keeping on the schedule. But, you know, his wrestling manager knew he wanted to play football in 37. So, in the fall of 37, he does something that I think is just so incredible. He's wrestling, sometimes during the week, and then he's playing football on Sundays. You know, he did that early in the season. And then he kind of scaled-down, you know, at the end of October or November, and then he just played football because that was the meat of the NFL schedule, and he housed one of the folks on football. But he's doing this double duty. And like I said, there were some times where he would wrestle, you know, on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and travel back to Chicago on Saturday, and they play on Sunday, and then be back out on the road wrestling, you know, and so just a tremendous athletic event to be able to do both. And then unfortunately, as I said, after the 37 seasons, he decides, like, if the house can't meet his salary demands, which wasn't very much, I think he's making like, he's back up to 5000 a year, and he just wanted six or 7000. And house wanted to stay at, and he's just so I'm gonna go wrestle, and then he ended up his first retirement, he did come back in 1943 when the war was going on, but he had missed six years, and he just played tackle. He had some injuries, but he did help the Bears win a title in 43. During the war, but so those first eight years, and then that was his ninth year in 1943. But like I said, that 37 season was just a tremendous achievement.

Darin Hayes:
Those are some pretty demanding jobs when you're moonlighting as a football player, especially during the rough-and-tumble era that he played in. And you're also doing some pro wrestling, which is pretty physically grueling, too. And you're doing those multiple evenings a week. And wow, that's a pretty tremendous athlete. Did he suffer any injuries during that earlier time? I know you said in 43; he did when he came back.

Chris Willis:
Yeah, no, I mean, he had, I think in 35, a back injury that kept him out a lot. Like he had, obviously, when you're playing football and you're playing wrestling, you're going to come across things. And, and it did affect him a little bit later with some arthritis and some joint injuries, you know, later in his life. But I think it was more like that: just wear and tear your professional athlete, you're doing football, and you're doing wrestling, and you're going to have some bumps and bruises along the way.

Darin Hayes:
That's amazing to have the fortitude to be able to do that. I just can't imagine that. That's pretty tremendous. Well, Chris, we appreciate you coming on here and talking about Bronko. And maybe if you could again, maybe if you want to share some of your social media and again, let us know where folks can get the book and the title of the book again.

Chris Willis:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's Bronko, the legendary story of the NFL's greatest two-way fullback. You can get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, like I said, where Rowan and Littlefield are the publishers, so you can go to Rowan.com and pick it up there, too. And there are reviews and features on the publisher's website. So, if you want to check out a little bit more about the book, it's there. So, like I said, it's an entertaining story about a guy who, you know, like I said, has a big personality and a tremendous athletic career.

Darin Hayes:
Yeah. Folks, it is a fantastic book. Make sure you get a copy of it. And did you want to share your social media as well?

Chris Willis:
Yeah, it's CDWillis83 on Twitter, so there's more stuff on Bronko, you know, that post, and a lot about early NFL history, too. So

Darin Hayes:
Well, Chris Willis:, we appreciate you and appreciate everything you're doing during your day job too, as well as what you're doing here with these fantastic books and we're hoping you're going to write some more about this great era because you were, you have some great ones out so far. So folks, make sure you go to Amazon and just look up Chris Willis:'s name and you'll see the big rundown of all these great historical football books.

Chris Willis:
Oh, no, I appreciate it, Darin. And it's always nice to be on the show and talk a little football history.

Transcribed by Notta.AI

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Welcome to today's interview with Chris Willis, a seasoned sports historian and the author of the compelling new book, "The NFL's 60 Minute Men." This book delves deep into the remarkable stories of those unsung heroes who have played every minute of every game in the NFL, showcasing their resilience, endurance, and pivotal roles in shaping the outcomes of matches. Chris Willis, known for his meticulous research and passion for football history, takes us on a journey through decades of NFL seasons, uncovering the grit and determination of these players who embody the essence of football's toughness and commitment. Join us as we explore the inspiration behind "The NFL's 60 Minute Men" and gain insights into the fascinating world of NFL history from the perspective of its most dedicated warriors.

You can order a copy of Chris Willis' The NFL's 60 Minute Men book at the Publisher McFarland.com website or on Amazon The NFL's 60-Minute Men.

-Chris Willis 60 Minute Men Interview Transcript

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another edition where we get to talk to an author about a great book on pro football history. And this is going back all the way to the beginning of the NFL and talking about some of these great early players. We have Chris Willis of NFL Films joining us, who's been on more than a few times to talk about some of his books. He's putting out a book quite a bit, and we're really enjoying him. Chris, welcome back to the Pigpen.

Chris Willis
It's awesome to be here, Darin, especially to be able to talk about these early players. So, thanks for having me.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, certainly. Now, the title of Chris's latest book is The NFL's 60 Minutemen: All-time Greats of the Two-way Player Era 1920 to 1945. Chris, that's a big topic. And these are some guys that maybe our modern ears aren't used to hearing their names. Maybe we've heard one or two of them because there are some big names in there. But there are many guys in there that most folks have not heard. What was your inspiration for writing a book like this?

Chris Willis
Uh, that's a good question. Um, I think the first sort of momentum was in 2019 when the NFL celebrated its 100th season, you know, they had the all-time team, which I was a part of the, of the voting. Uh, and then I did some rankings for the pPro Football Journal John Turney's site. And so I had some feeling of who, you know, who some of the best players were, the most significant players. Um, but I felt all the time that they don't get as much recognition as, you know, some of them sort of modern players. I mean, um, even, even if you're a casual fan, you might know who Joe's name is, Jim Brown, you know, uh, you know, let alone the paintings and the Tom Brady's like, there is a certain generation that you still might know. And then really the early years, it might be just, you know, Jim Thorpe and Red Grange, and that's it like, well, now anyway, here's 25 years of history, especially the first, you know, two and a half decades of great play by many more players than, uh, just a handful of names that some people know. So, uh, so I think when you combine, you know, that a couple of years ago, you know, with trying to promote and trying to get these players names, maybe out there a little bit more, that's what was the inspiration of, of putting the book together.

Darin Hayes
And it's a great timeline that you choose, you know, ending at 1945, which, you know, we've talked about with other guests, and I believe a premium talk with you about it before because it's sort of that World War Two era sort of broke that the single platoon system because there was a lot more talent out there. There was, you know, some they're having some trouble having some guys play, you know, having players during the war and everything. So I changed into that. What we know today is that we have specialists, offense, defense, and special teams. And of a single platoon. That's why the title, I assume, is 60 Minute Men.

Chris Willis
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's like the first 25 years in the NFL, you know, from 20 to 45. And that was a real key point for me, you know, was, I wanted to evaluate these players, who, they knew all the players played both ways, they played 60 minutes, you know, so some of the first questions I get when I say, Oh, this is the book title, and they think, Oh, so Chuck Bennerik, well, Chuck Bennerik, although it's a great feat, was the last to go 60 minutes, you know, but he did not play against players, you know, consistently going 60 minutes, you know, so, so some of those players that were sort of near the war years, or at the end of the World War Two, you know, I just cut it off there, just to say, Okay, I know all these players all went 60 minutes, you know, they played offense, defense, special teams. And so that's where that sort of 25-year era, you know, to me, is the two-way era in the NFL.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, sort of the layout of the book; I mean, you have it really interesting. You talk about, you know, you rank the players and you have a top 45 where you go into some great detail on tell some stories. You have a lot of excerpts of players that were contemporary that played against and with some of these guys that really had some great insight to them, so you can't get much better than that. And then you have a list that takes it up to 100 after that, like the 46 through 100. So why don't you maybe tell us how you determined the ranking and who to put on the list?

Chris Willis
Yeah, so the first goal I said came out was, well, what year am I starting with? What year am I ending with? So we found that 1929 to 45. So I was a first. And then it was, you know, roughly eight, I think it was like eight or nine, you know, sort of criteria is that, that I would look into, they all played a part, none of them was weighed higher than any other. So it was, you know, all-time teams. And it was a big thing, you know, where I was trying to find as many all-time teams from players and coaches and executives and sports from that era, you know, so because then that tells me who they thought was the best. And you take that into consideration, like, you know, you know, did the coach coach him or did the player play, you know, a lot, a lot of guys are going to pick their teammates and buddies. But when you start seeing names of opponents, you know, that gave you a little bit more sense of who people might have thought was great. So you had oral histories, you had win and loss records, you had championships, you know, other honors, you know, whether it's all pro teams, whether they were on, you know, a ring of honor or teams Hall of Fame, you know, so all those criteria were meshed into one evaluation, you know, so and I sort of went through that and to say, Okay, you know, who has the best resumes, you know, and then I started ranking them that way, you know, so it wasn't just like, Oh, you know, you had to be in the Hall of Fame. No, I believe I have almost a dozen players who aren't in the Hall of Fame in that 45. And then some of, you know, like, if I say, Oh, who's number 100? Well, Jim Thorpe is number 100. And you people might say, well, you're crazy, Chris. Well, you know, Thorpe's best years were before the NFL was founded. 1920 was really his only productive year, and you can maybe say 21 a little bit. But his ooh rang Indians years, and you know, the one game with the New York Giants and in the car, like, he was not an elite player at that time. Now, it was 1915. Yes, you know, and leading up. But so people might be surprised, well, Jim Thorpe 100. And who's in the top 50. So, but that was like the, you know, fun part of it, which is just, okay, let's evaluate everybody. Like I said, if I could have written 100 full bios, but then it would have been like, you know, six 700 pages, I don't know. Besides us, you know, who would maybe want to read a 700-page book about 100 of two-way players, but McFarland was great, the publisher, and you know, be able to do 45 full, you know, bios and to be able to talk, and I wanted it to be more not like a Wikipedia page. That's why I wanted to write a little bit of fuller bios. Because it's just one of like, oh, that's, I can get that off Wikipedia or pro football reference. Now I wanted it to be a little more detail. And oral histories and testimonials was a huge part of it. That was one of my first goals to try to find players talking about another player; you know, I can write what I think makes, you know, Red Grange grade or Mel Hine or Don Hudson. But I wanted to hear it from other players, coaches, executives, you know, owners, sports writers who, you know, okay, this is what made, you know, you know, Dutch Clark grade, this is what made, you know, Patty Driscoll grade. And it came from them instead of me just reverberating, maybe what I think, or what's in Wikipedia, Wikipedia or your profile bar reference, you know, because I think it could be misleading stats, some of the scoring, like you had to dig deep in it, you know, and say, okay, I think one perfect example was 1929 with Ernie Nevers. And Ernie Nevers is great. You know, he's up there, pretty high. And, but his 29 years included the game where he scored six touchdowns, he scored 40 points, and you're like, oh, wow, you know, the guy scored 12 touchdowns. Well, the majority of those touchdowns came against the three worst teams in the NFL, you know, you know, the six against the Bears, then there was like three against Dayton, three against Brooklyn, you know, so like, nine of his 12 came against like some of the worst teams, where the other the better teams sort of shut him out. So you got to take it, you know, like I said, you got to, you know, dig a little deep to maybe find, okay, what actually happened where now, we can watch it, we go online, you got tons of stats, you know, and all the time, and you can know that, okay, this guy has had a great year, you know, so, so that did make the fun part of it.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. I mean, I'm, I've loved some, some of the comments that you said on the players, uh, the contemporaries that were playing against them, some of the best ones were the linemen, linemen against linemen, and just some of, you know, Hey, this was the toughest son of a gun I had to go up against in my years of football. And just, you know, just some of the comments like that, that, you know, using some of the, the, the chat of the day. Cause I assume these are probably like some of these interviews are probably like in the fifties and sixties when these guys were, you know, out of football, but, uh, you know, still seasoned and, uh, you know, talk, still talking and reminiscing. So I thought that was, that was great, but I, I love the consistency of your format on those first 45. And maybe you could explain to the listeners and viewers about that, what they can enjoy when they get a copy of the book.

Chris Willis
Yeah, like I mentioned, you know, you're following your criteria, so you want to touch on all that. And I mentioned before, like, oral histories and testimonials were a big key of finding, you know, like I said, as much as they're great players, sometimes I found, you know, some player who played for like two years, three years, you know, which was the norm, you know, average playing was three years, who did talk about, you know, some of these other guys, you know, or some of they only play three years, well, they might have played, you know, four games against, you know, you know, some of these great players, and they can give you a testimonial. Yeah, he was, he was that good. So, and footage is another thing, you know, like, I try to find as much game footage and game film. And because that's, like you said, the linemen, it was a running game, it was a lineman game, you know, you know, so you wanted to see a little bit more of some of those guys that are just popping up on all pro teams, or you just assume is in the Hall of Fame, like, oh, you know, and the perfect example is, I mean, his name's been bounced around. It's Ox Emerson, like, there's, you know, there's a little bit of footage of him, you watch him, well, he was really good, you know, and, and that's why he made all those all pros. And, and you look at him, he's like, well, why isn't he in the Hall of Fame? You know, because he's, he's got all the check marks on his resume, you know, whether it's, you know, played for a championship team, you know, they finished high and rushing for four or five straight years, you know, you know, that Dutch Clark and good personnel, and all these backs that made all pro, well, somebody had to block for him, you know, so, so he gets lost a little bit. But when you look at these things, and you look at the, especially the linemen versus linemen, like, well, there's a reason why, you know, Bronco Nagurski had him on his all-time team, Red Grange had him on, it was like, he must be a little better than that, if, if Red and Bronco are saying, you know, if I had to field a team, I'm going to take Ox Amherst as one of my guards. So, so that's part of, you know, the explanation, you know, the chapters and the, like I said, the bios being flashed. And then, you know, there's, there's some good stories, you know, some of them have been heard if you but some of them haven't been so I tried to find, you know, some stuff that also made it, you know, enjoyable to read and then like, okay, well, I didn't, that's a great story of the 20s and 30s and playing 60 minutes, you know, so that was that's the title of the book. So I wanted to get that impression of these guys playing both ways. Some of them said, Oh, I love playing offense better than defense. Some of them just said, Oh, I just love the hit. So, you know, stuff like that. So it was enjoyable to try to find that type of research.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, the consistency of each of those first 45, you sort of have the reader, you know, me as a reader, you sort of have me dip my toes in the water a little bit, have those basic bios, you know, the name, rank and serial number, where they played, went to college, things like that, basic bios that you would see on some of the reference pages like you talked about. But then you take us down, and you get into the text, and we're the story and the, you know, the testimonials about that player and everything. So I thought it was well done and consistent. And it was great to, you know, it was sort of, there's stories to it, but it's a reference book, in some ways too, or you could throw on your coffee table and somebody comes to visit and they have 10 minutes to kill, they can, you know, knock out one of these legends and read it or, you know, a dentist office or something like that. You know, it's great for that too, or to sit down and have a long read. So I think that was kind of incredible. And you have a book like that, that you can go both ways like that. So well, well done on that. Now, now, okay, you talked, you led to a little bit, you had, you know, about a dozen non-Hall of Famers on that list, which I thought was fantastic because there's, you know, it's very well publicized that, you know, folks want to see some more seniors getting into the pro football Hall of Fame. And maybe this is some avenues, you know, by, by folks like you, telling about some of these guys and letting us know about these legends. So maybe if you could talk maybe about a couple of these guys that are not in the Hall of Fame, I know you've already mentioned one or two.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I mean, and I didn't plan it that way. Like I said, once you start reading and doing the research, you're like, okay, because there were some impressions. Okay, I like him, but is he going to make the list? And then I'm like, Oh, you know what, you know, maybe he makes a not only does he make the list, he's up pretty high, you know. So Ox Emerson is one of the I think the ones that I really enjoy when I do the research is Bern Llewellyn, the Packers half back, you know, who was pretty much the go-to guy for the Packers teams that won three straight championships 29, 30, and 31. I mean, here's a guy that the team won three straight, you know, only Lombardi's Packers have won three straight NFL championships. And he's not in the whole thing. You know, I went back, and I did some retro MVPs that are in the front of the book, which is my research as you go through, and I picked who would be in the top five MVP, and Llewellyn would have won back-to-back, and 29 and 30. So, to me, he's like a no-brainer. You know, I've always liked his resume, and you know, like I said, he's very high on this list. You know, I won't reveal where he's at, but he is very high. And he's a head of a lot, a lot of Hall of Famers that are already, you know, like I said, have been elected, and he's not, you know, it's an Emerson's, you know, up there pretty good. And, and then you, yeah, then you get to some guys that you hopefully, you know, as I said, we talked about Lineman's earlier, like, you know, Joe copcha of the Bears, another guard of George Christensen, that lions are another lions alignment during that time when they won a championship and a tackle. And so those guys are tougher to, to evaluate because you don't have and like I said, some of the testimonials, you know, I mean, there's nobody living that can really push, you know, some candidacy, candidacy. And so, but it was very interesting, you know, like I said, you know, and then, as you mentioned before, I have 46 to 100. And there's Hall of Famers on there, you know, I list them and I make sure, hey, these are Hall of Famers. And so you can take it, you can take a look and say, okay, the guys that are ranked in the top 45, you know, maybe, maybe they need to be looked at a little bit harder. Or, you know, like I said, investigate a little bit more, based on, you know, because I find it hard to believe that the NFL or at least a probable Hall of Fame in the selection committee, like they're done with anybody who played almost like since 1950, you know, like, there's so everybody that was great, that's that is now in the Hall of Fame, you know, who played the first, you know, 40 years of the league, like, that, that would be a surprise to say that they're all in there, let's move on to this, the more modern era, you know, so, so hopefully, like I said, these chapters can bring some of these players to life and give them that, maybe proper attention.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Well, before I ask it my next question, why don't we give the opportunity here to tell folks again, the name of the book and where they can get a copy of it at? Yeah, it's.

Chris Willis
60 Minute Men was published by McFarland just this past March, and you could pick it up on Amazon or Barnes& Noble's website. You can also go to McFarland and Company. They play some football, but they play a lot of baseball. You know, if you're a sports fan or historian, you might know of McFarland because they do a lot of unique titles. So yeah so 60 Minute Men in the era of the two-way play era from 1920 -1945.

Darin Hayes
Alright, great. Now, folks, I highly recommend it to it's a great read. Now, well, Chris, when you're doing the research, okay, I'm sure, you know, as a writer, I know that sometimes we have some preconceptions, we're gonna write a story, but then you get into the research, and the story sort of takes you a different course maybe than you really thought it was going to go. And I'm sure you probably had some surprises with some of these players. Who is somebody that pleasantly surprised you? That was maybe somebody you knew a little bit about, but you didn't realize how good they were till you got into the research.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I've mentioned Llewellyn. He's one that, you know, over the years, like, as I do more research, I've been impressed with, you know, how good he was and how great he was. So, you know, I think the, maybe the other guy that comes to mind is a couple of quarterbacks that might get overlooked a little bit, because they're the way they perform is a little different function than now is red done, the old pack, you know, play for the Cardinals and Packers, and Ed Denowski, you know, the old Giants quarterback. So, I think I didn't; once I started digging a little bit more, I was more impressed by what they did, and especially their leadership. You know, Dunn was a pretty efficient passer and Lambo system. In those early years, you know, he did a little better than I thought. And Ed Danowski, I think was underrated. I think Danowski, when I more I looked at, especially in the passing game was, was highly efficient, you know, led the league, I believe, a couple of times in, in passing percentage and, you know, was a member of Giants championship teams, especially the sneaker game, you know, played very well in that game and the upset against the Bears. So, those are two names, I think, besides Llewelyn, I think, that sort of jump out a little bit more and were a little more impressive than I thought.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, that Danosky; I'm glad you mentioned him because he's probably one that really jumped out for me. You know, I knew of him, but I'm sorry, good boy. What's interesting is Danosky where you have him. And I started reading. I'm like, well, you know what, you make a pretty good case for him. And he's maybe a lot better than what I realized he was. So I learned a lot about him. So I appreciate you have him having him in there. So, okay, sort of maybe on the flip side, who is somebody, maybe you had to go in some high expectations saying, oh, this guy's going to be way up on the list. And maybe, you know, not because of his play, but because some of the plays, some of these other fellows that, you know, advanced beyond him on the list, who maybe some of those things.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I think, yeah, there was a couple of guys where I'm thinking, maybe, you know, I mean, George house is one, I think, people automate, but he wore like ten different hats. So, besides being a player, he did actually play, and he was solid; I wouldn't say he was spectacular. And obviously, he's in the Hall of Fame for, you know, the variety of things he did for the league, you know, and his impact, you know, so, so sometimes you see him, he's like, Oh, you know, I mean, I mentioned Thorpe being at 100. But how should I go? Should he have been higher or lower than the other couple guys, you know, that sort of came in that mid-30-year, you know, that I thought would be, you know, a little bit higher Joe Guyon, because he plays his professional career in the 20s, you know, so he's in the Hall of Fame, he was in, like the third or fourth class, you know, but maybe not quite as dominant, you know, as some of the ones in the top, you know, 45, you know, so, so there's a couple of players like that. I think the other one, they were not as it's Joe Stade higher, he, you know, when you look at him, like, you know, I mean, Alice praises him a lot, but that was one of his guys, you know, he did have some all pro teams. But maybe not just like that, in my opinion, but there were some examples like that, where, you know, you thought you might have them higher, but you know, didn't quite make it.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I think, and I don't disagree with you on it. You know, after reading what you had about these players ahead of them, I thought like, you know, George Wildcat was Wilson, somebody that famous, maybe more famous because, you know, his college play and playing out, you know, in the original AFL and, you know, the Wildcats and everything. But, you know, some of the other backs are ahead of him. But I don't disagree with you after I read it. And I'm thinking, OK, you know, he's probably right. You know, it's just maybe the name makes me think higher of them because, you know, it's been pounded into you for four years. But maybe some of those other guys, too, are the same way that you mentioned. So, you know, so great, great job. And I, you know, I can't argue with the rankings, and it's it's fun because they're debatable, and we're not going to debate with you on it. But it's one of those things that makes it interesting. That's what makes good reading, and people buy the book, too. So that's that's always a good thing, too. So we'll save that for people in forums, comments, and other stuff like that. They can do that. Sure.

Chris Willis
And that's part of it. If people discuss it, that's fine. It means they're reading the book and they're putting some energy in it. And if they want to say, hey, why is this guy high on his list and not high? So that's fine. That gives a good discussion. That's always productive.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Now, did you have, did you go back and look at any ratio of, uh, were there more quarterbacks and other players? I mean, I didn't really go into the tally, but I just sit here thinking about her. Was there, is there one position that was more predominant to make this to 45?

Chris Willis
Uh, I mean, I don't think there was one of four dominant. I mean, I think it played out, um, the way it did, um, with the importance of the positions, you know, I, I, you know, uh, like there wasn't quite as many centers, obviously, because there's only one on a team and they start, you know, where you have two guards too. So I think if you look at the breakdown, they're kind of consistent with what the positions were or the importance of each position, you know, so, um, you know. Obviously, the guys who touched the ball are going to, you know, are going to be somewhat, but I, I didn't want just to go off that, you know, so that's why there is a decent amount of guards and tackles on, on the team. Um, so, uh, so I, I always thought that it was, it was a good breakdown. I just didn't overload it and like, Oh, wait, I only got like two guards and three tackles. Like, no, it didn't come to that. I think, you know, if I did, you know, my proper research, I thought it came out that way, you know, you look at it, and you're like, okay, you know, there's some, some, some guards and some tack because they were just as prominent as the backs, even though the backs probably got more of the headlines, you know, um, you know, I mean, the Cal Hobbs and the, the Turk Edwards and them of the world, you know, the Mike Mitchell, they're up there and they're up there pretty high. And you're like, okay, you know, because that's why, you know, a lot of people that are saying how great they were, you know, um, so that's, you know, I thought it came out, but there wasn't one like, Oh, uh, you know, it was all, it was going to be a bunch of quarterbacks, and you know, that wasn't going to be the case.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I got the feeling of it, you know, reading it. You know if I was gonna put it, you know, these guys played both ways. So they played offense and defense, but if you're gonna put it in a modern term of, you know, the rooms, you know, I think there was probably just as many interior linemen as there were ends as there were You know backs as there were quarterback So I think you broke it very well and evenly and distributed them around it wasn't you know The the top 10 weren't quarterbacks and then half backs I loved how the placement of these guys and probably fairly so and even some teammates You know going on and I loved how you sort of interconnected some of those you had You know when you had like Fats Henry and Link Lyman in there You know no pun intended, but there's sent sort of link together, and you know to be in those bookends for the Canton teams, and you know They play together over on Potsville too. I can't remember if they did or not, But I know I know FASTA. they're just some interesting things that you did that connected the stories, Even though they were separate stories. So that was enjoyable, too.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I mean, as many teams that came in and out of the league, especially in the 20s, a lot of the greatness was on certain, obviously, teams and franchises, you know, the Bears, Packers, Giants have a lot of, but then you'd have like, like we mentioned Ernie Nevers, well, he played for, you know, Duluth and then the Cardinals, you know, some guys, you know, might have only played, you know, for, you know, and Sean played for a lot of years with Staten Island before we went to the Giants. So, you know, yes, the, you know, the, the main teams that survived and the teams that won championship obviously are well representative. And there's a lot of links, as you mentioned, a lot of links between those teams and, you know, you know, guys like Cal Harper to play for the Giants and the Packers, and he won championship both. So, you know, the, he's going to play with really good players too. So then they're representative in the list.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, most definitely. No, I guess, Chris, you have you have any last things to say, maybe the share with the listeners to encourage them to buy the book and we'll let you tell you where the book you can get the book again.

Chris Willis
Sure. Uh, yeah, no, I mean, I think if you, uh, if you love early pro football, you know, this is a book that you'll be interested in, you know, like I said, the chapters flow pretty easy. You can, like, like you mentioned, stop, put it down. If you want to, you know, read just one chapter a night, then, you know, you can, uh, you can do it pretty easy. And, and, you know, these chapters kind of sit by themselves, so to speak. And, uh, and then the other thing for me is, uh, I mean, you know, the internet and social media is huge on who they think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. And a lot of it is modern guys, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I would hate for this era of players and even talking into the fifties and even early sixties, I hate for some of these players to get lost just because, you know, nobody's around to talk about them, you know, or when they're not living, uh, or there's just something coming, you know, you can't watch footage on YouTube or whatever, like, you know, these players are still great, you know, they can be, it shouldn't be ignored. So I think between some of that, you know, the book has, you know, can give a reader, you know, a very, you know, fun read as well as educational. I'm just like, you know, this is a good source.

Cause like I said, it's not just reading the Wikipedia page or just reading a stat page, you know, puts it in a lot of context of the era, you know, who, what players thought who was great, you know, how they became great. I mean, I love some of the Don Hudson, you know, stuff about, you know, how he made himself just a great receiver, whether, you know, practice, he would catch though, you know, when I read that, or when I did the research and read the Hudson, it just almost looks like it's a Jerry Rice story. Like, you know, that he did in the eighties and nineties. Well, that's, you know, Hudson did it in the thirties and early, you know, or forties, you know, like the way he practiced, the way he played, you know, the way he worked, you know, shoulder pads that weren't all that, but you know, like, you know, to give him more speed and things like that. Like, you know, he was a legit athlete and played some solid defense too. And then eventually, he played some thought into it when he, you know, found the correct position. So, if you go, yeah, so if you go on the McFarland website, publishers, the book will be there, and then you can also get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, folks, I highly recommend it. And if you want to know who that top spot is, the best way to do it is to get that book and, uh, enjoy it just like I did. And, uh, you know, Chris probably did it during his research, and people read it. So Chris, we really appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you preserving football history and writing that book. And, uh, thank you for your time to tell us about it.

Chris Willis
Thanks for having me again, Darin. It's always a pleasure to talk about early football history. So thanks for having me.

Chris Willis is a renowned author specializing in the rich history of professional football. Here's a breakdown of his career and background:

The Football Historian:

Head Librarian at NFL Films: Since 1996, Willis has held the position of Head Librarian at NFL Films, the production company responsible for iconic NFL highlight reels and documentaries. This role grants him unparalleled access to historical archives and resources, fueling his passion for chronicling the sport's past.

A Prolific Author:

-Multiple Books: Willis has authored numerous books delving into various aspects of professional football history. Some notable titles include:

-The Man Who Built the National Football League: Joe F. Carr (2010): This biography explores the life and impact of Joe Carr, a pivotal figure in shaping the early NFL.

-Dutch Clark: The Life of an NFL Legend and the Birth of the Detroit Lions (2012): This book sheds light on Dutch Clark, a player and coach who helped establish the Detroit Lions franchise.

-Red Grange: The Life and Legacy of the NFL's First Superstar (2019): This biography details the life and career of Red Grange, a legendary player who helped propel the NFL's popularity in the early 1920s.

-Walter Lingo, Jim Thorpe, and the Oorang Indians: How a Dog Kennel Owner Created the NFL's Most Famous Traveling Team (2017): This unique book explores the story of the Oorang Indians, a Native American exhibition team that left its mark on professional football's early years.

Beyond Books:

-Emmy Nomination: Willis's work extends beyond books. He received an Emmy nomination for his contributions to the HBO documentary "The Game of Their Lives: Pro Football in the 1950s."

-Professional Football Researchers Association: Willis has been a member of the Professional Football Researchers Association (PFRA) since 1993. This organization is dedicated to preserving and promoting the history of professional football, and Willis's involvement highlights his commitment to the field.

-Contributions to the Sport's Legacy: Through his research, writing, and contributions to documentaries, Chris Willis plays a vital role in preserving and sharing the stories that shaped professional football into the sport it is today.

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Chris Willis's book, The Columbus Panhandles: A Complete History of Pro Football's Toughest Team, 1900-1922, dives into the largely forgotten story of a unique and successful professional football team: the Columbus Panhandles.

From Railroad Yard to Championship Contenders:

The book chronicles the rise and fall of the Panhandles, a team formed in 1901 by workers at the Pennsylvania Railroad's Panhandle shops in Columbus, Ohio. These immigrant railroad workers honed their football skills during lunch breaks on the sandlots of the railroad yards.

Key Figures and Strategies:

Willis highlights the role of innovative team manager Joseph Carr, who later became the NFL commissioner. Carr used perks like free railroad travel for employees and the star power of the Nesser brothers, a family of talented players, to build a strong traveling team.

Season-by-Season Account:

The book delves into a season-by-season account of the Panhandles' journey. Willis utilizes original interviews, newspaper reports, and photographs to recreate the team's triumphs and heartbreaks. Readers get a glimpse into the team's playing style, known for its physicality and toughness, earning them the nickname "Pro Football's Toughest Team."