Football History

We have been aware of many alleged sports curses throughout sports. The Curse of the Bambino on the Red Sox, the Chicago Cubs Goat Curse, and more, but what about a curse on an entire city and its sports teams?

Image of the Washington Football Team at Buffalo Bills (26 September 2021) is Courtesy of All-Pro Reels from District of Columbia, USA via Wikimedia Commons

Greg Tranter recently released another great sports history book. This time, it is The Buffalo Sports Curse. Greg chats about the Bills with "WIde RIght" and "13 seconds" but also goes through some of the other Western New York sports teams, such as the Buffalo All-Americans and the "Staley Swindle," and more. The book is available through multiple outlets and one way is RIT Press The Buffalo Curse. Learn all about it and pick up your copy today.

Here is a link to get a copy of Greg's work: Buffalo Sports Curse Book.

-Transcribed Conversation with Greg Tranter on his Buffalo Sports Curse Book

Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And we are going to stare down that portal tonight and talk to our friend and historian, Greg Tranter, who is authored a few books on football. We've talked to him and Jeff Miller just recently about their book from last year called Relics about the Buffalo Bills and some of the memorabilia that they wrote about.

Well, Greg is back with another book called The Buffalo Sports Curse. Very interesting. Indeed.

Hi, Greg Tranter. Welcome back to the Pig Pen. Hey, thanks a lot, Darren.

Great to be back. Greg, you are staying extremely busy. You said you just had this book published with Jeff last year or earlier this year.

And now this book, and you're telling me you have a couple more books in progress. So you're a very busy guy. So, we appreciate you taking the time to come and talk with us tonight.

Yeah, thanks. I appreciate the opportunity. So maybe you could describe the Buffalo Sports Curse.

Now, that's something we've heard of curses of other teams, perhaps like the Chicago Cubs and the Boston Red Sox and some of those curses. But I've never really heard of the Buffalo Sports Curse. So maybe you can enlighten us a little bit about basically what this is.

So, yeah, the interesting part of the Buffalo Sports Curse is it's not one team. It affected every professional team in Buffalo in the four major sports of baseball, basketball, football, and hockey all the way back to 1901. So it's affected not only the Buffalo Bills and Buffalo Sabres that people are very familiar with, but also the Buffalo Federals from the Federal Baseball League back in 1914 and 15, the Buffalo All-Americans that were an original franchise in the National Football League, all the way through.

It even affected a few individuals, including superstars like O.J. Simpson and Baby Joe Macy, who is a boxer in Buffalo. So it's very expensive, much more so than the Chicago Cubs or the Boston Red Sox, because there were other teams in those cities that were winning championships. OK, so generally, these curses, especially the two we mentioned, we know that the Boston Red Sox curse was like the curse of the Bambino, supposedly because they sold the rights to Babe Ruth.

The Cubs, I believe, was the Billy Goat Tavern curse of somebody, a tavern owner brought a Billy Goat into one of the games. He asked to leave with his goat and he put a curse on a team and it lasted decades. So what's sort of the root of this curse in Buffalo? So three things happened in 1901 to create the curse.

One, President William McKinley was in Buffalo visiting the Pan-American Exposition and was assassinated in September of that year. Earlier in 1901, Buffalo was an original franchise in the American Baseball League that was just forming at the turn of the century. And what happened was they had paid their franchise fee, were told by President Ban Johnson, who was the president of the American League, that they were in the league.

At the last minute, Ban Johnson double-crossed Buffalo when he realized he needed a team in Boston to compete with the Boston Braves. So, he moved the Buffalo franchise to Boston. They became the Boston Americans.

In 1903, they won the first World Series. In 1907, they were renamed the Boston Red Sox. The third thing that happened in 1901 was that the owner of the Buffalo baseball team died of a heart attack at 53 years old.

And many people say he died of a broken heart because he wanted a major-league baseball team in Buffalo. So it was those three things in combination that happened in 1901 that started the curse. Huh.

Very interesting. So this is, you know, what, 121 years old, this curse? Yes. And no Buffalo team has won a universally recognized championship in any of the four major sports of baseball, basketball, football, and hockey.

The Buffalo Bills won two AFL championships in 64 and 65. But at that time, the AFL was considered inferior to the NFL. And so the Bills would not have been considered the professional football champion of the sport.

It would have been the NFL team. And other than those two, no team has won a universally recognized championship. And there's a cursed event on every team that's been a professional franchise in Buffalo in one of the four major sports.

Hmm. OK, so maybe you could describe some of those of all four sports. Sure.

And of course, of course, you know, everybody's pretty familiar, right, with Wide Right in Super Bowl 25, the Music City Miracle in the 1990 AFC Divisional Playoff in Tennessee, the no goal when Brett Hall scored the winning goal for the Stanley Cup, and his skate was in the crease, which, of course, was against league rules that year. And then even last year, the 13 seconds in Kansas City, where Buffalo was 13 seconds away from winning that playoff game and then hosting, they would have hosted the AFC championship game. So there are those that people are very familiar with.

But lots of people don't know that, for example, Buffalo had an original franchise in the American Professional Football Association, which, of course, was the forerunner of the NFL. And they had a team called the Buffalo All-Americans. And in 1920, they actually played for the championship in Buffalo, even though there wasn't really a championship game.

But they played Akron at the end of the season, and they had the two best records in the APFA. If Buffalo won that game, they would have been NFL champions. If they tied, Akron would win because it had had no losses.

Buffalo had won. And so, of course, they tied. So Akron won the championship.

What's worse is the following year, in 1921, Buffalo goes through what they thought was the regular season undefeated. And they were crowned champions, at least by the press. And then the owner, Frank McNeil, the owner of the Buffalo All-Americans, agreed to play what he thought were two exhibition games at the end of the season.

They beat the Akron Pros one day and the next day they played the Chicago Staley's and lost the game 10 to 7. At that point, George Halas, who was the owner of the Staley's, claimed that that game counted and that the Staley's should be champions because if you included those two games, the Staley's had a better winning percentage than Buffalo did. They were 9-1-1 and Buffalo was 9-1-2. And he also claimed that the Staley's won by more points.

They had won 10 to 7 earlier in the year. Buffalo had won by one point. So they had a point differential advantage.

So he basically went to the rest of the owners and lobbied to be champions of the league. And in the spring of the following year, the owners voted the Staley's NFL champions. It is now known as Staley's Swindle because of the back office maneuverings of George Halas, and McNeil, the Buffalo All-Americans owner, fought that decision for the rest of his life.

Up until all the way until 1961, and then his wife carried the banner after that until she died. But the Staley's are still considered NFL champions to this day. We had a discussion, I had Joe Ziemba on about a week ago, and we spoke with him about his book on Cardinals and the Bears that he wrote that was released recently and quite a bit about Halas in it.

And we talked a little bit about Halas, you know, sort of being, you know, did a lot of great things for the game, but he was sort of, you know, really jockeyed things for his team to try to gain an advantage for his team. And, you know, this Staley's Swindle being one of them and a couple of others that he did, I believe, Portsmouth and Green Bay, he sort of screwed them out of some championships and tried a couple of others, too, that Joe Carr and I believe dismissed and wouldn't let him do. But, yeah, that's a that's a pretty big one when you get a championship taken from you.

Well, and then and then he came back to haunt Buffalo years later with the All-American Football Conference. If you remember the AFC from 1946 to 49, Buffalo had a franchise in there. In that franchise, they were the. I think their attendance was the third-highest in the league.

They made the playoffs two years in a row, actually played a championship game against Cleveland and lost like everybody did. But when they went to merge, Buffalo had an opportunity to merge in if they got 100 percent of the votes of the owners. George Halas voted against it.

So he was still holding a grudge, you know, 20, what, 29 years later. How could he have a grudge? He got what he wanted the other times. Right.

Well, because McNeil fought for the rest of his life, he was mad. I see. And so Buffalo was left out of the NFL in 1950 when, you know, the Browns joined in the 49ers, you know, joined and so on.

Buffalo was left out. So, yeah, Halas comes back to haunt them later. And that's in the book, too.

And he vaulted the Colts into that. Yes. Right.

OK, so so, yeah, a lot of football is happening there. And you talked a little bit about the AFL championships, but the AFL is not quite ready to merge with the NFL. They were competition and sort of lesser competition.

And then you get into these, you know, some of the NFL seasons of the Bills. And there's some bad luck there like you talk about a few of them already. Well, yeah, I mean, even let's go back to the AFL.

So in, Buffalo won the championship in sixty-four and sixty-five, and then sixty-six became the first year of the Super Bowl. So, they actually have an opportunity to become universal champions. Right.

They win the AFL East Division. And they play Kansas City in the AFL championship game to go to Super Bowl one. And it's at home, and they're trailing near the end of the first half, 14 to seven.

Jack Kemp is playing quarterback and driving the Bills to the tying touchdown. They get inside the 20-yard line near the end of the half, and Kemp throws what looks to be a touchdown pass in the end zone. And the Bills receiver slips and falls down.

And Johnny Robinson steps in front of him, intercepts the pass, returns at 70 yards. It sets up a field goal at the end of the half. And instead of the game being tied 14 to 14, the Chiefs are up 17 to seven and they go on to win 31 to seven.

And the Bills are denied the opportunity to go to Super Bowl one. And actually a lot of people, a lot of football historians will tell you that the Bills actually were a better matchup for the Packers than the Chiefs were, because as you may or may not know, but Buffalo still holds the record for the most consecutive games, not allowing a rushing touchdown. And so they would have handled the Packers sweep.

And so, who knows? I mean, you know, it's all speculation of whether the Bills would have beaten them or not, but my guess is they would have given them a better game. But either way, they lost their opportunity to be the universal champions in 1967. And then you fast forward to the NFL.

Of course, there are the four Super Bowls. There's not only Super Bowl 25, you know, where, you know, Wide Right, which I don't know if you or if any of your listeners saw the 30 for 30 on the four falls of Buffalo by ESPN a few years ago, but running back Kenneth Davis theorized that the Army helicopters that were flying over actually kept Norwood's ball from curving in because his kicks always curved in. And that kick didn't.

And he surmises that it was because of the Army helicopters. But then, you know, you have Super Bowl 26, where Thurman Thomas, you know, loses his helmet before the game. On the second play of the game, the Bills had planned for a certain run that they thought they could break for a touchdown.

The play opened up exactly like they thought. But Kenneth Davis, who was his replacement, ran to the wrong hole. And so no big play, no touchdown because Thurman was on the bench.

You know, who knows? That changed the game. Maybe the Bills still lose. You know, then you go to Super Bowl 27 in the Rose Bowl, and Jim Kelly gets hurt.

The Bills turn the ball over nine times. Then you go to Super Bowl 28. The Bills are up 13 to six at the half.

They have the ball to start the second half. They get to midfield. Thurman Thomas fumbles.

James Washington returns it for a touchdown. Instead of the Bills going up 16 to six or 20 to six, it's now 13-13. And the Bills unraveled at that point.

And there are many more. I mean, I think there are about a dozen different Bills-specific situations in playoff games that they lost that were very controversial. You know, so there's definitely a lot of football in the book.

But it does cover all the sports, all four. Yeah, well, that's some things I didn't realize about the Bills, especially that 1966 AFL championship game. Very interesting.

Now, there's a saying here, you know, I don't live that far from Buffalo. I'm in Erie, so I'm halfway between Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo. And, you know, I'm a Steelers fan, and the Bills just cleaned our clocks a couple of weeks ago.

Worse loss than the Tomlin era. But there's sort of been a joke that's gone around by Steelers fans, you know, talking about the Browns and the Bills about if you're and you want to date a girl and you don't really want to get married, you date a girl that's a Bills fan because she's patient about getting a ring. There's some humor in there, but.

Yes, 120 years, 120 years of waiting. I had to throw that in there because it sort of fit in. Now, OK, now take it, take a side, you know, being a Bills fan, because last year, the 2021 divisional playoff game against Kansas City, the 13 seconds had to be, you know, crushing, make you sick to your stomach as a Bills fan.

But as a football fan, I know it's hard to do; if you could peel back those layers of your love for your team, it had to be probably the greatest football game that was ever played at maybe any level because that was tremendous watching that last two minutes of the game. Yeah, no, I mean, it was. It's the only game in NFL history in which two teams scored 25 points in the last two minutes of regulation. I mean, you know, you saw it, and you saw it again this past Sunday.

Mahomes and Allen are quarterbacks who do things that other players just can't do. And, you know, you think you got him tackled. Do you think you got him hemmed in?

And then all of a sudden, well, there's a 20-yard play. And it's like, how does that happen? I thought we had him stopped. And it happened in that last two minutes last year.

It happened on both sides of the ball, right? It was like, you know, I mean, Tyree Kill goes for, you know, 70 yards. And then, you know, and then the Bills come right back and drive down the length of the field and score with 13 seconds left. And you're sitting there going, OK, I feel pretty comfortable.

There's only 13 seconds left. And they get 45 yards in two plays. Intense, you know, so I mean, and I think everybody that was watching that game wanted the Bills to get the ball in overtime, you know, to match them, right? Definitely.

I mean, to the point that the league changed the rule because everybody watching on TV was like, no, Allen deserves a shot to respond. Yeah, it was kind of interesting. My wife and I were supposed to be at a family member's for dinner and going to watch the second game.

I believe Tampa and the Rams were the next game, which was also a great game. So we were trying to make our travel plans. I tried to make my travel plans.

I tried to get them to time their dinner so I could get done with one game and go the other. So I kept telling my wife. I think I told her four times in the last two minutes.

Oh, this game's over, you know, Kansas City just scored. Oh, no, Buffalo just scored. This game's over.

And it's just kept the other team coming back. And unbelievable. That was edge-of-your-seat football there.

That was great. Yes. No, and see, I played into the curse.

I jinxed them because when they scored when the Bills scored with 13 seconds left, I turned to my wife, and I went, oh, my God, we're going to win. I'll never do that again. Right.

Yeah, that's extremely interesting. So that's so maybe this year, maybe this is the year that the curse can be broken. You know, you just had a Buffalo in a close game, but they overcame Kansas City at Kansas City.

Of course, they did last year during the regular season, I believe, too. But it's got to be a confidence booster knowing that you can go toe-to-toe with, you know, the great Andy Reed, Patrick Mahomes, and Kansas City Chiefs. And you've proven it, you know, three times in the last two years that you can take them right down to the final seconds.

And in their stadium, which is loud, noisy, and a difficult place to play. As I've said to a bunch of my friends this week, I said, I want Patrick Mahomes to come to Orchard Park in January. Let's see how he does with Bill's Mafia, the 20-mile-hour winds, and the freezing cold temperatures.

And let's see how comfortable he is. And those, you know, because the amazing part about the Chiefs is Mahomes has never played a road playoff game, right? He's always played at home. OK, come to Buffalo.

But, you know, fitting into that now, I believe the announcers on Sunday's game said that next year, Buffalo has to travel to Kansas City again. And I'm thinking, how can that game be at Kansas City every single year? You think you'd get one in Buffalo at one time, right? I know because because I mean, Alan's what they've played now, I think, five or six times. And only one of them has been in Buffalo, a regular season game during the pandemic when there were no fans allowed.

Come on. So that's even more advantageous because he's never experienced. Mahomes has never experienced a game with fans in Orchard Park.

It's very reminiscent. I think a similar thing with the Steelers and Patriots, you know, the Brady Roethlisberger years, it seemed like every year the Steelers would have to travel to Boston to play, except for one year. And that was the Jesse James controversy at the end of the game when the Patriots beat him in Pittsburgh.

But it was very, very similar. One team just gets all the home games during the regular season. I don't understand that.

So I know it's frustrating. OK, so I'm sorry. So tell us a little bit more about the curse with as far as your book.

And well, I guess, first of all, let's let's tell people where they can get the book. Yeah, so the book is available in many, many locations. But RIT Press published the book.

And so it's available on their website, which is www.rit.edu slash press slash Buffalo hyphen curse sports curse. So they can get it there. It will be available on Amazon right now if you go on Amazon because the book will officially be released next Monday.

And we have a kickoff at the Buffalo History Museum at six o'clock next Monday night. And I'll be giving a talk, you know, somewhat similar to this, you know, telling some of the stories that are in the book. So this will be Monday, October 24th and Monday, October 24th.

And folks, we were pre-recording this. So this is being released on the 24th. So don't be confused here.

Yeah. And then, of course, it'll be in all the local bookstores, Barnes and Noble, around Western New York. But online, either RIT or Amazon should should do the trick.

And the book, the way the book is structured, it's structured into 18 chapters that highlight different because it's it's kind of a combination history book curse book. So there's 32 cursed events that I talk about in the book. But I also give historical information about the teams leading up to the curse.

So you learn about, you know, the Buffalo All-Americans of the APFA. You learn about the Buffalo Federals that were in the Federal Baseball League in 1914 and 15. You learn about the Buffalo Braves basketball team in the 70s.

So you get some history along with it. And then it plays into, oh, and then here's the curse that occurred that affected the team and affected their ability to win a championship. Oh, very interesting.

Get a little bit of sports history, along with some of the controversial hypotheticals. And that's kind of interesting. Oh, sorry.

It also covers franchises that never came into being, but almost it. And then it also covers two individuals. It covers OJ Simpson and his fall from grace.

He's probably, you know, and again, a lot of people this day and age don't remember that OJ Simpson when he came out of USC, was not only considered the best player at the time, he was considered the greatest running back in college football history at that point in time. He was, and though the Bills never won a Super Bowl, obviously, he broke all kinds of records. And I would argue, you know, the murders occur, and his fall from grace is probably the greatest fall from grace of any athlete in American professional sports history.

Wow. Yeah, I didn't even think about that aspect. You're right.

That's quite a Buffalo connection, too. Very, very interesting. And we lost it, right? I mean, we lost it because, you know, he's a pariah now to a great degree.

Right. Yeah. You sort of lost that iconic figure in your history.

Before the great Bills teams of the nineties, he was probably the face of the franchise. Yeah. And he was beloved in Buffalo, for sure.

But I mean, even nationally. Wow. Very interesting.

Great storyline. I mean, I'm glad you wrote those books. That's very intriguing.

Greg described where you can get it. If you're driving or don't have a writing utensil, we will have as many links as we can in the show notes of this podcast. So you can get information and links, right?

To get connected to Greg's book of the Buffalo sports curse. And, you know, hopefully, you know, get these things out while they're hot here. Probably make some great gifts for the holidays, for the sports fans in your life.

I'm sure. And, you know, some great reading. Very interesting.

So, so Greg, you know, you've got a couple other projects coming up. I don't know if you want to discuss them or just leave them for now, not jinx them or. No, no, no, no.

I have two books that hopefully we'll publish next fall. One is a football book, which is a timeline of the history of the bills. So we're basically creating a book that takes about 150 Bill's stories and puts them on a timeline with photos from the birth of the franchise right up through this season.

And we call them vignettes because there'll be 350 to 500 word stories about significant things that happened in Bill's history. And they'll be basically through the book in sequence of the time when they occurred. And I'm doing that with a company called Reedy Press.

They did one book about the Chiefs a couple of years ago. And so we're doing one on the bills, and that'll be published next fall. Um, and then I'm also doing a basketball book on the Buffalo Braves basketball team that today is the LA Clippers, but they were in Buffalo from 1970, 1978 and had superstars like Bob McAdoo, Ernie DeGregorio, Randy Smith, where they're like big name players.

And they're in the curse book, too. They have a couple of cursed events to go along with that franchise. But that will be more of a total history book.

And I've also, we've also written biographies on every player that played for the team. There were 83 players that played and we've written a biography on every person. And that one, I'm collaborating with a guy named Bud Bailey, who's a Buffalonian, who's a former sports reporter for the Buffalo news.

Wow. You are a busy guy. I hope you get these books done and out to the publisher quickly.

So you can get a little bit of sleep here. You gotta be going 24 seven to do all that. Wow.

All fun, though. All that I love doing. So, well, Greg, why don't you give us the title of your book again? Once again, it's the best place to get it.

And, uh, you know, before. All right. It's called the Buffalo sports curse.

One hundred twenty years of pain, disappointment, heartbreak, and eternal optimism. So that's the full title of the book. It's available at RIT press, which is www.rit.edu slash press.

And the book will be there. You can also get it on Amazon or at any of the local bookstores around Western New York, which will be available. So, it will officially be released on October 24th, but you can order it today.

All right. Well, Greg Tranter, historian, author, collector. Thank you very much for coming on here and sharing the story of this great book and for writing this book and sharing this, the great stories contained in it of the Buffalo curse.

And, uh, appreciate your time. All right, Darin. Thank you.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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College football jerseys are more than just fabric; they symbolize school pride, individual achievement, and moments etched in memory. But did you know some jerseys transcend even that, becoming so iconic they're permanently retired, hanging, and preserved for all to honor, forever out of reach?

Join us in this visit with FootballArchaeology.com's Timothy Brown as we delve into the fascinating stories behind the first three college football jerseys ever retired, uncovering the legends who wore them, the moments they immortalized, and the legacy they left behind.

Prepare to be transported back to a time when gridiron giants walked the Earth, their jerseys becoming more than just numbers but testaments to their enduring impact on the game we love. Buckle up, college football fans, and let's embark on a journey through history, one retired jersey at a time!

-Transcribed Conversation with Timothy Brown on the 1st 3 retired jersey numbers

Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to Tuesday. And it's FootballArcheology.com day with Timothy P. Brown, the founder and host of that website.

Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Good to see you.

I was trying to adjust my little white light here. I've tried a bunch of things to brighten up this room, but I'm down in, you know, I've got a basement office, and it's always kind of yellow. But you're not here to look at me.

You're here to listen to that. That's right. And nobody wants to look at me either.

And I have too much light, and it washes me out. And I look like I'm, you know, a marshmallow man or something. So, hey, that's the way it goes.

But, you know, we're not technology people. We're football people. And we're here to talk a little bit about football and some football of ancient times here for at least, you know, a while back.

And you have a really interesting tidbit I'd love to discuss today. You talk about the first three retired jersey numbers in a recent tidbit. And gosh, that piques the interest.

Just hearing that. Maybe you could tell us about that story, who these three jerseys were, and who wore them. Yeah, so, you know, so first of all, before numbers could get retired, people had to wear numbers and, you know, when football was first when numbers were first being used to identify players, it they were like on the scorecards.

The players didn't wear them, but they wouldn't wear a number necessarily. But the school would publish a scorecard that, if somebody did a certain thing, they made a tackle, scored a touchdown, or came into the game as a substitute, they would post that player's number on the scoreboard in a particular spot. And then that is what, you know, you'd have to OK, number five.

And then that was, you'd find the corresponding number on the scorecard. So then, you know who the player was. But that was kind of a thing people don't realize, and it is a goofy little thing that occurred.

But one of the other things when that process was going on was that, you know, the numbers could change from week to week. I mean, normally, it came up with one order at the beginning of the year, and then they just numbered the guys one through twenty-five. Right?

And then whoever the visiting team was, they'd number them to, you know, assign them a number. So, you know, the numbers didn't mean it to the players. But then they, you know, so starting 1905 is the first time, numbers were in a football game.

But it didn't really until mid-teens when, you know, a lot more teams started wearing them. And so it wasn't until, you know, 1925, there's this fellow named Red Grange, who turned out to be a pretty good running back at Illinois. And he happened to wear number 77, you know, not a number we associate with running backs nowadays, but, you know, that's what he wore.

And he had such a fabulous career that Illinois decided, you know, once he, you know, played his last game, that they would never allow anyone else to wear number 77 for the Illinois football team. So he became the first player to have a number retired, as far as I know, that's across all sports. And so, so, you know, range number 77, boom.

So he's the first guy. Then the next guy was a similarly talented running back out at Stanford, Ernie Nevers. And so the funny thing about his story is that he wore number one.

And when they retired, you know, this at the time, on the Pacific Coast, a lot of the student organizations kind of ran sports much more than they, I mean, eventually that got professionalized. But the student organization voted and said, we won't allow anybody else to wear number one at Stanford. And so, somehow, they slipped up in the next year, and a running back got issued the number one for one of the games.

And what's just kind of kind of cool about it? It's just that, you know, it was kind of a big thing. It got caught, you know, in the newspapers and everything.

But then there's a picture in Stanford yearbook for that year that shows this guy wearing number one in a game, you know, and, you know, it's just at that time, they didn't have a lot of pictures in the yearbook. But anyway, that's what, and then I've got that in the tidbit that we're talking about, you know. Nevers was probably a little bit ticked.

He was playing pro ball next year for the Duluth program. I'm assuming that point, but he's probably, hey, I thought you retired my number. Why is this guy wearing it? What the hell? Yeah, well, I tell you, he wasn't and didn't see it on TV.

So he wouldn't have seen it at the time. But yeah, it's kind of a story. And then, you know, they stopped it after that first time.

So then the third guy should have his number retired. That came in 1927, so two years later. And it's a guy that kind of everybody, you know, it's like today, you know, there's certain players that everybody knows.

And so, at the time, he would have been, you know, certainly known by anybody on the West Coast, probably, you know, other parts of the country because he was all American. But he was the captain of St. Mary's football team in 1927, named Larry Betancourt. And unlike the first two guys who were running backs, Betancourt was a center.

So, you know, apparently he was talented enough and just an honorable guy, all that kind of stuff. So then they ended up retiring his name. And then he ended up instead of signing with the.

He signed a major league contract with the NFL and played for three years with the St. Louis Browns, the same organization Ernie Nevers played baseball for. He played for parts of three seasons in the majors and then retired at age 32.

And then he played for the Packers in 1933. So, six years after getting out of college, he went and picked up one season anyway with the Packers. So anyway, Larry Betancourt.

Interesting trivia answer to a trivia question for you. Yeah, it is. Now, Tim, maybe you can answer this question.

Now we know today, when players' numbers get retired, you know, it is definitely in a professional sport. Even college football is usually like at their final home game. I've seen it happen many times, or they'll say, hey, this is the last time this number will be worn on a field.

So people appreciate that player a little bit more. In the 1920s, when Grange and Betancourt and Ernie Nevers were together, was it the same kind of thing at their last game, or did they have a separate photo shoot or ceremony or something? Yeah, I don't think it was all that formalized. To my knowledge, certainly, nothing occurred at a game.

So, like Illinois, a picture was taken at the time with Grange holding his jersey and his hands after a game. So, I mean, it was it was a staged photo. So, you know, they knew they were doing this, but to my knowledge, I don't think they did any kind of ceremony, you know, as part of his last game.

And then, you know, the others, Nevers and Betancourt, I think with Nevers, they kind of heard, hey, this is what happened with Grange, we should do the same thing with Nevers. So, I think that came a little bit after the fact. And then Betancourt, too, I mean, as far as I could tell, you know, looking at their yearbooks and things like that, I didn't see anything about this happening to him during the time he was, you know, still playing for them.

And then, you know, he played baseball for them the following spring, too. I'm trying to think that was Nevers, like a year ahead of Grange, because I know Nevers played, and Stanford played Notre Dame in that 1925 Rose Bowl. And Grange, I think, was a junior in the 1925 or 1924 season.

So 1925 would have been his final season with Thanksgiving. I think they were both seniors in their 25s. OK, OK.

If I'm not mistaken, Nevers was a junior when he played in that Rose Bowl. OK, that's why I was a little bit confused.

And I thought the Rose Bowl was his last game. OK, that makes sense. Yeah.

So yeah, anyway, I mean, it's just one of those things that we take for granted now, but, you know, it's like everything else. Somebody had to think this up. Right.

Somebody thought, hey, we're going to not let anybody else wear Red Green's number. I think it's lost the time, you know, who that was. But it's, yeah, it's just one of those things.

Somebody made it up, and now it's a tradition and a tremendous honor, regardless of sport and whether it's your high school or anything. You must have done some pretty good things if they return your number. Right.

It's also caused some interesting situations. I said to him that a couple of years ago when J.J. Watt went to the Cardinals, he wanted to wear 99 like he wore at Houston. But that was Marshall Goldberg's number for the Chicago Cardinals.

He also had to ask permission from the Marshall Goldberg family. They, of course, allowed it. I think about Joe Montana, you know, when he was 16 with the 49ers, when he went to the Chiefs, of course, 16 was retired from Len Dawson.

So he had ended up wearing, I think, 15 when he was with the Chiefs. But just some interesting things with these legends going to another team. And, hey, you can't have your old team number because we have our own legend here by that number.

It's kind of a neat thing there, too. Well, and it's just, you know, like at the professional level, you get into merchandising and all that kind of stuff. But it's just kind of funny how attached people become to a number, you know, that is often just randomly assigned somewhere along the line.

They got that number, and then, you know, it becomes part of their identity. And so, anyway, I think the whole thing is amusing in some respects. Yeah, it is.

And it's amazing how we do become attached to the numbers. I know I was a being a Steelers fan even to this day. When I think of number 10, I think of Roy Jarella, the kicker from the 70s, because that's who I grew up number 10.

And, you know, you have Santonio Holmes catching, you know, Super Bowl-winning catches wearing that number. And you've had many other players wearing that number 10, not Roy Jarella, the kicker. They're much more athletic and doing some better things than kick and field goals and things like that, too.

It's just amazing how we associate that. It was a good chat and a great discussion. You point out some really cool aspects of football that are sometimes so obvious and staring us right in the face.

But you bring up some history and some stories to it. Maybe you could share with the listeners how they can read you. Yeah.

So, the best way is to just go to football archaeology dot com and subscribe. It's free. And otherwise, if you don't want to do that, then you can follow me on Twitter on threads or subscribe to the Substack app, and you can follow me there and not necessarily get emails, you know, kind of whatever works for you.

Yeah, most definitely. And Tim, we appreciate you coming on here, folks. The link to the tidbit Tim spoke about today is in the podcast show notes.

It'll also take you to football archaeology dot com. Once you're there, you can check out some of these great tidbits he has there. And, you know, hit him up on Twitter and some of these other social media as he's on and message him on threads.

I or on Substack, I'm sorry, as I quite often do reading these and putting my two cents worth. We have a little banter a couple of times a week on this, along with some others. And it's good, good fun reading a tidbit.

The comments section is good fun, too. So, Tim, we appreciate you. We would love to talk to you again next week about some more great football.

Very good. I'm sure we'll find something to chat about.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

Love the football jersey designs and evolution wait till you check out the History of American Football Jersey.

-Football Jersey Frequently Asked Questions

-What are American football jerseys made of? Modern jerseys are a mix of synthetic fibers such as polyester or a blend of different materials such asspandex, for more check out our in-depth study ofThe Make up and Materials of Football Jerseys.

-What are some of the unique football jerseys in history? Gridiron jerseys with logos on the front were some what of fad once upon a time. Check this story titled Football Jerseys with Emblems.

---

One of the top experts in early football rules history, Timothy P. Brown joins us on the discussion to celebrate Pop Warner to give some input on his brother Bill, a famous gridiron coach and player in his own right.. Timothy Brown's FootballArchaeology.com has a daily football factoid that he shares that are really quite interesting in a short read. They preserve football history uniquely, and we are quite happy that Tim has agreed to join us each week to go over some of his Today's Tidbits. Click that link, and you can subscribe for free to receive them yourself each evening.

Here is a link to Tim's original post. The Other Warner Brother and Chemawa Indian School.

-Transcription of the Other Warner Brother with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes at pigskindispatch.com. Welcome, once again, to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history.

Welcome to Tuesday. We are going on an archeological dig into football history with our friend Timothy P. Brown of footballarcheology.com. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Thank you. I'm looking forward to talking about the Warner Brothers, not the cartoon guys. Oh, well, I was getting ready my Bugs Bunny stuff out to talk about that. You can use it if you want.

I'm just... That's not what I'm here to talk about. Oh, okay. I came to the wrong show.

All right. No, but your topic is much more interesting than the Warner Brothers, which makes films and cartoons. We're talking about some great innovators in football and the Warner Brothers of football coaching and playing days of the early 20th century.

So you have a topic that you talked about, February 6th was your tidbit, and you're actually talking about Pop Warner, his brother, Bill, who's a little bit lesser known, and it's a great and interesting story that we'd love to have you share with us. So, I mean, I kind of always liked the brother combinations. There's a number of brothers and even cousins who are active, especially in coaching nowadays, but who've been very successful.

As a kid growing up, Hank Aaron and his brother, Tommy, were a brother combination that I think may still hold the record for most home runs by a set of brothers, but anyway. But this is one where, like, Pop Warner, everybody knows Pop Warner. Even if you don't really know much about him or you're just barely a fan because of his influence on youth football, Pop Warner's side of things, and even somebody who ignores football history is going to have heard his name.

But so Pop was the older brother, and they grew up in Western New York State, and they ended up going to Cornell. So, both of them went to Cornell, both were linemen, and Bill was considered a pretty big guy, or I should say Pop was considered a pretty big guy, but Bill was bigger, and he was better. He was a first-team All-American his senior year, and then he graduated from Cornell.

As was fairly common at the time, the preceding year's captain coached the next year's team. And so he graduated in 03 from Cornell and then coached in the fall of 03. And so then he, I don't know exactly how it worked out, but for one reason or another, he left Cornell, but at the same time, his brother was leaving, who had coached Cornell previously, and his brother was coming back to Cornell from Carlisle.

So, he did Pop coach Cornell twice and Carlisle twice, two different stints. So anyways, Bill leaves and his brother comes in. And so, Bill then goes to Sherman Institute, which they call Indian Schools out in California.

For 04, he's at North Carolina in 05, he was at Colgate for 06 and 07, he goes back to Sherman in 08, goes to St. Louis University in 09, and then he's at Oregon in 1910 and 1911. So, back then, a lot of coaches had full-time jobs, they weren't on campus. Part of the reason they were only there at Indian School for a year was they got hired for one year, and then they'd go back to whatever they did.

So, both of them lawyered up during the off-season. But interestingly, both of them had connections at Indian Schools, right? I mean, they were both Cornell and at the Indian Schools, but Bill never had a Jim Thorpe playing for him, so he didn't get quite the notoriety of Pop. And Bill, I think, also just, you know, he kind of got out of coaching a little bit earlier.

You know, Pop worked forever. And then, you know, so the story then, you know, so he was, Bill stayed out in Oregon and, you know, basically was a lawyer in a town out there. And then for, you know, for whatever reason, in 1917, he ends up picking up at another Indian School, Chemiwa, which is, you know, over on the, he was living more towards eastern Oregon, and he ended up, Chemiwa's over on the west side of the state.

And, you know, they had been, you know, they used to play a lot of, you know, college teams. You know, the Northwest especially didn't have that many colleges. So, you know, there were some pretty good athletic clubs like Multnomah.

And then during the war, because this was 1917, there were all kinds of military bases that they could play, or even National Guard units, you know, whatever it was. So that's kind of who they played. But, you know, he coached this Indian team again.

And he ends up with a 1, 2, and 3 record, which, you know, you don't have those too much anymore. And, you know, I think they scored like 25 points the whole season or something like that. You know, because they had a couple of nothing, nothing shutouts.

But then he just went back. And, you know, his brother was, Pop was still coaching. You know, he'd left Carlisle and gone to Pitt.

He was at Pitt for a long time. And so then Pop had, he left Pitt after the 23 season and took over at Stanford. So then Bill at least had the opportunity to work with his brother a little bit.

You know, all he really did was he scouted when he would scout like the Oregon, Oregon State, Montana, Washington, Washington State, you know, those teams. He would scout them for, you know, for Bill and for Stanford. So, you know, he kept his, kept himself in football at least from, say, 24 to 32.

Well, while Bill was on the West Coast. But the other thing that's just kind of interesting about it was that it's just, Chemiwa is still open, you know, it's a, and it's the longest serving school dedicated to educating North American or Native Americans. So it's now just a high school, you know, back even like Carlisle was this real mix of kind of, you know, a lot of them, a lot of the emphasis tended to be on like trades and manual arts and things like that.

And so they had; they covered both high school and college curricula. That was pretty typical of Haskell in Kansas, which was the same kind of way. A lot of the Indian schools, you know, had that kind of curriculum. So, but anyways, they, you know, they played some decent football, and Bill helped them, led them to a one, two, and three records, which, as I said, got to give them credit for that because, you know.

Yeah. You don't hear that. I don't think I've ever heard of a coach having a one--, two-, and three-record or a team.

That's amazing for football, especially, you know, six games have three ties, but a different game back in that era. Now I have; I'm pretty sure that Bill and Pop got to play a professional season, or at least a few games together, on the same team they had for two years back in 1902 and 1903. In the first year, 1902, they had the World Series of football, which was an indoor game at Madison Square Garden, sort of during the holidays to help with festivities.

The manager of the Madison Square Garden wanted to make a couple of bucks and, you know, put some fannies in the seats to have some revenue coming in, so they had this world series of football. So they invited four or five teams, and they were trying to get 1902.

There was the original NFL, which was a three team league of, uh, you know, two from Pittsburgh or two from Philadelphia for the baseball teams, the athletics and the Phillies each had a football team sponsored. And there was a team from Pittsburgh to Pittsburgh stars. They were trying to get those teams to come in, but they, they wouldn't, uh, they, they couldn't make it.

So they were members of those teams that went to this world series of football. So the Philadelphia athletics actually would a team, they formed, they made it be the New York Philadelphians. It's been called or the New York, the New York team, they call it.

They were sort of the favorites. They want everybody to roof flexors in New York city. And they thought they were just going to dominate this thing.

Everybody is involved with it. Well, a team from Syracuse, uh, an all-star team from Syracuse, which had both Pop and Bill Warner on that team, came in and ended up winning the tournament. They beat New York and like the second round and, you know, just, uh, went on from there, but Pop ended up getting hurt in one of those early games.

I think it might've been a game against the New York Philadelphians and a guy that, uh, for them, so for the next game, uh, Syracuse was sort of scrambling to try to find a tackle. Cause they, you know, like we talked about, uh, you know, before tackles were very important at that time. And that's what pop was.

And so they got, uh, from the New York team that lost, they got Blondie Wallace, who was, uh, sort of an enigma figure of early professional football. He ended up playing for Syracuse after losing to New York. So, but, uh, it was great to see that.

I'm pretty sure I know Pop is playing that team. I'm pretty sure Bill did too on that 1902, uh, world's football team. Yeah.

I hadn't thought about that before. You know, he was still in college at the time. Right. Um, so, you know, who knows, you know, who knows if he played under his own name or an assumed name or how it worked, but I think it's in the newspapers as he has it down as his name, you know, and it, you know, of course, Glenn Warner for pop Warner.

So yeah. It was so interesting, too. You know, you think about them in the coaching realm, but they were pretty, pretty big-time players back that day, too. Yeah.

Before they're coaching pop was not the most financially responsible man. He had some gambling issues. So he, uh, he probably needed a couple of extra bucks somehow playing in this plane in that, uh, in the tournament.

Yeah. Uh, well, it's sort of a programming note. Um, we were going to try to have something special, uh, chasing down a good friend of the program.

Uh, Jeffrey Miller, uh, authors wrote a bunch of different books, including a book on pop Warner. And April 5th is Pop Warner's birthday. We're trying to put together a nice little episode where Jeff comes on.

We pay tribute to Pop Warner. Uh, but in Jeff's book, something I didn't realize it sort of starts off. Uh, they grew up; the brothers grew up in Springville.

The whole family was there in Springville, which was sort of Southeast of Buffalo. And they all of a sudden packed up when, uh, pop was of high school age, like early high school age. And they moved to Texas.

And so they had a big ranch down there, and the boys worked on the farm, and that's how they got big and big and strong. I guess that doing the ranching work is what Jeff attributes it to in the story. And, uh, they pop back to New York to visit some buddies, uh, during pretty great before Thanksgiving time. And, uh, the guys got him involved in playing some football, and, uh, he was having a good time doing that and getting a couple of bucks.

And he told his father, he, you know, wired back and said, Hey, I need, I need some money because I, uh, want to stay up here. And he's like, your father's like, what do you want to stay up there for? So he had to make up an excuse. He said cause I want to go to school.

I want to become a lawyer. You always want me to become a lawyer. So the father sends him money.

He has some more fun with it. And he's like, Oh crap, I can't go back to my dad and tell him that. So he went and entered into Cornell's law school.

That's how I ended up going to college. So that was kind of interesting. Yeah.

Well, he's, he did a few other things where like his first year coaching, uh, he was coaching both Iowa state and, uh, Auburn. Cause they, cause they're right next to each other, uh, geographically. Oh yeah.

Yeah. It's an easy commute. And, uh, but you know, he, he basically, he coached Iowa State from like, uh, mid-August till towards the end of September and then moved down to Auburn where he kind of had his primary contract, I guess.

And, but there's a story in there where like, you know, he did continue by telegram, he coached Iowa state, but at some point, he took, took Iowa state out to like Montana to, to Butte and they, he gambled on the outcome of the game. And, you know, it didn't sound like it was a fair match, but one way or another, he lost his money. So, he had to keep coaching both places in order to make up for it.

Yeah. Yeah. There are some interesting rabbit hole stories you can go down to with the legends of the game, like Pop Warner and Bill Warner.

So definitely we could talk all day about them. There's some, some great, interesting things, but, uh, yeah, so stay tuned. Uh, we'll have more on, on pop here on some of these, I'm sure some more football archeology.com visits and, uh, hopefully with Jeff Miller too, on April 5th.

Yeah. Well, the Pop Warner thing sounds fun. That'll, that'll be a great episode.

Yeah. Yeah, sure. Well, um, well, Tim, why don't you share with us, this, this came out of one of your tidbits.

It comes out each and every day at about 7.00 PM Eastern. Uh, why don't you share with us how the listeners, too, can get involved in and read your tidbits each and every day? Sure. Uh, just, you know, go to the, uh, so my site is football archeology.com. You just gotta make sure you spell archeology correctly.

A R C H A E O L O G Y. And then, um, yeah, so if you, if you subscribe, you'll get an email every, every night at seven Eastern with the story that day story, but you can also just go to the site anytime you want there. You know, you can search by topic to find old articles. Um, and if you're not, you know if you prefer not to get an email every night, you can also follow me on Twitter at Football Archeology.

And, um, so anyways, you can subscribe, you can just hit the site whenever you want to, or you can follow me on, on Twitter. It's definitely worth the while to take that 10 seconds to sign up for it because it's a fantastic and you'll have some great football information each and every day, uh, at 7:00 PM. So, uh, I highly recommend it.

So Tim, thank you once again for joining us and sharing your knowledge and your stories, uh, from football archeology.com and your tidbits and, uh, for joining us.

Hey, very good. Thank you once again, and look forward to seeing you and talking next week.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Strap on your helmets and step back in time! This podcast dives into the gridiron twilight of a coaching legend: Amos Alonzo Stagg. We'll be dissecting the final game Stagg coached for the Chicago Maroons, a team he led for an astonishing 41 seasons.

Join us as we uncover the secrets behind Stagg's coaching prowess, explore the atmosphere surrounding this momentous game, and analyze its impact on both Stagg's legacy and the trajectory of Chicago Maroons football. Whether you're a die-hard football fan or a history buff curious about a bygone era, this podcast promises a fascinating journey into the world of early college football.

Timothy Brown shares the information and story of this epic moment in gridiron history based on his original Tidbit titled: Stagg's Last Game At Chicago .

You can also enjoy this conversation on our podcast format: Stagg's Fianl Game Coaching U of Chicago.

-Transcription of Stagg's Final Game in Chicago with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal for positive football history. And welcome to another Tuesday where we visit with FootballArcheology.com's Timothy P. Brown, the master historian, who's going to tell us about another one of his great tidbits. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Thank you. Thank you. I have a quiz for you.

I'm not going to hit you with the dad joke, but I'm going to hit you with a quiz. Okay. What makes this podcast special? This particular one, this episode.

This episode, what makes it special?

Well, probably the guest, as most people are going to tell us.

Come on. Come on. You and I have done 99 podcasts together before this one.

Really? Is this the 100th one? What makes this one special? This is the century mark, huh? That's right. Wow.

That is quite an accomplishment. Numero one hundred. I'm mixing my German and my Spanish, but yeah, this is our 100th podcast.

Now I think, you know, I was on your podcast once or twice before we kind of got together on a regular basis. So this is our 100th when it was, you know, on a regular basis. So this is the 100th Tuesday in a row that- That's correct.

Yes. Wow. So we're going to hit the two-year mark in two or four more episodes.

Yeah. All right. Well, hey, that is quite an accomplishment.

Anything. So, thank you for sharing. I didn't realize that.

I knew it was a whole bunch, but- Yeah. So I just, you know, I'm kind of a dork. And so I've numbered them. Just when we started doing them, I started numbering them.

So we just happened, this happens to be the one that says 100 before. Well, if I would have known that I would have baked a cake or something. So, I apologize.

I just wanted to surprise you. Yeah. Surprise parties are always the best.

Yeah, that sure is. I need to have some like fireworks things going off in the background here when we go to do the editing on here. So, well, hey, great.

Great for sharing that. So, you know, this is, well, part of this century mark. We're going to talk about somebody who lived for almost a century.

That's right. And then a tidbit that you wrote a little while ago called Stagg's last game at Chicago. So the grand old man of football had his last game for the Chicago Maroons on the sideline.

So, you know, the background here is Mr. Stagg right there. Now, this isn't at the 100th game, but that's him along the sidelines at Chicago. And so, you know, one of the things that I actually opened that tidbit with was just the thought that you know, so from my vantage point, football really started in 1876, not 1869.

And then Camp died in 1925. He was actually at one of the meetings too, you know, one of the rulemaking meetings. So he, Camp, saw the first 50 years of college football.

And Stagg, who was, I think, three years younger than him, and just, you know, maybe a couple of more, it took him a little bit longer to get to Yale as a young man. But so he's a little bit delayed in terms of, you know, his class from Yale. But nevertheless, he was born before football came about.

He was born during the Civil War. And, you know, he saw football's first 90 some years, you know. So, I mean, two central figures, obviously, you know, if Camp is the father of football, Stagg's the uncle, right, you know.

And so here's two really influential guys in the history of the game. And then Stagg lives 40 years longer, you know. So he saw, I mean, you just think about what he saw after 1925.

So, you know, very much, you know, the forward pass coming into play, he saw the, you know, more, you know, a greater acceptance of African American players. He sees, you know, modern transportation, allowing teams to travel and, you know, much more intersectional play. Radio, he saw the beginnings of television, you know.

So, I mean, there were things that he saw and changes to the game that, you know, Stagg or Camp never saw. So anyway, it's just kind of an interesting way to think about their times. But so, you know, Stagg went to Yale, coached and attended Springfield College, so the YMCA school for, you know, for a year or two.

He was then recruited to the University of Chicago by the then president, who was a former Yale faculty member who had had him as a student. And so he recruits him to become the head of athletics. So, it was a faculty position, but, you know, that meant he was the football coach, baseball coach, track coach, you know.

So he became a really influential figure, actually, you know, football and track for sure, you know, major figure. And so he was the coach there from 1892 through 1932. So, in the first 40 years of school, you know, he's the football coach.

And, you know, won a national championship or two and, you know, a bunch of Big 10 championships and everything. But as he was, you know, kind of getting on in the years, Chicago brought in this new young president who didn't like athletics and especially didn't like football. So the guy eventually just, you know, bled the budget of the athletic department.

And then he forced Stagg to retire. So, at age 70, which was the university policy. So, you know, he can do that.

And so then Stagg ends up. So, you know, it was known before the season started that this was last year. So every opponent would like to honor him, you know because he had been such a central figure.

And so most of the teams were giving them like a letter sweater from their school or an award blanket, which a lot of schools gave out at the time, rather than sweaters and jackets. Michigan was so damn happy to get rid of them that they gave them a silver service. So, but then his last game is they're playing Chicago, and they got a new coach by the name of Clarence Spears, who I just say that because, you know, he'd hung around, he was coached in a number of places, you know, for 30 years or whatever.

He was one of those guys who was a doctor and a physician and would coach during the fall. Another interesting thing about the game. So, in the last game of the season, the referee for the game was Frank Birch, who was the guy that invented the referee signals, you know, for penalties and touchdowns and all that kind of stuff.

So, you know, here's another barely central figure in the game. But, you know, it was one of those games where, you know, Wisconsin scores first, they don't convert, then Chicago scores in the second quarter to take the lead because they converted. And then the Badgers score again before halftime, a 12-7 lead.

And then, I mean, I'm a Badger fan, but unfortunately for Stack, the Badgers scored again. And then, you know, there was one play in the second half where the Chicago halfback takes off wide open, nobody there to touch him, and he trips over a line or whatever, but he trips and falls. And so they never score, and they end up losing 18-7.

So Stack loses his last game, ends up with the losing record for the season. So he ends up 3-4-1 that year, which left him at 244, 111 and 27 in his career at Chicago. And in the big 10, he went 115-74-12, with 30 of those losses coming since his last championship in 24.

So he lost a lot of his games in the last ten years of his coaching because they just, again, like I said, they kind of got bled out and, you know, academics just became the key. But then what's kind of cool is that he then leaves Chicago, gets hired at the University of Pacific, and he coached there for 14 years. He won five conference titles.

And then once that passed, then he goes out, one of his sons was coaching out at Susquehanna in Pennsylvania. So he was, sometimes his son would say, well, he was a coach and officially his son was a coach. So I'm just going to say he assisted there for six years.

And then he goes out, he's like 91 or something like that, goes out to, retires in California, but it still is the kicking coach for a local junior college. You know, so the guy ended up, you know, with, the guy ended up with, what is it? Sixty plus years of coaching football, you know, at the college level. And even more, because I'm not even counting his Springfield years.

So, you know, low sixties. So anyway, I'm just unbelievable, you know, the guy who was, you know, on the rules committee, you know, a number of football innovations are credited to him. He was one of the guys he and the Harvard captain in the same year who invented tackling dummies.

Right. So, I mean, there are so many things, like flankers. You know, he was the guy who really created a lot of core football elements that, you know, we just take for granted today. And as you said, he's right there within the first, you know, not even a decade; football's not even a decade old when he starts playing the game.

So he's probably observing it, you know, as a youngster, but it's amazing just to take that full circle, and what a brilliant career. Excellent. Yeah.

Yeah. There's something else. And, you know, obviously, playing at Yale at the time, Yale and Princeton were the best football teams during the 1800s.

Yeah. So he was right there in the middle of it all. And he was quite the baseball player, too.

I think major league baseball sort of wanted him, and he decided he was against professional sports, and that's sort of why he went to the coaching career. He was a very big advocate of collegiate and amateur sports. So.

Yeah. He was, you know, a religious guy, too. And so, you know, he's an interesting dude.

He's a vegetarian and he's just, you know, kind of unconventional in a lot of ways. But yeah, unique individual. If you live well into your nineties and you're still coaching in your nineties and working and still good brainpower, maybe we should all get rid of meat then and become vegetarians.

Cause yeah. Well, you know, the other thing that's funny is that he was. There are a lot of stories about him, and there were different times when I forgot exactly what it was. He had some health issues, you know, from time to time, and his wife would take over.

And so, you know, like his wife, a lot of times would be at practice. Like if he couldn't be there, she'd kind of run things. And she apparently knew her share of football, right? And the team was not, you know, it wasn't like a substitute teacher where kids are trying to screw around.

Like they knew that she knew what was going on, and they weren't going to get away with anything with her, or they'd meet the consequences of nothing else. I wonder if Nick Saban's wife was doing that, like when he had to take a day off. Yeah, I doubt it, but I'm not sure.

He probably had more assistants. That could be, that could be. Well, Tim, that is great stuff on a great, you know, innovator and an important figure in football history.

And God, we really enjoy that you were able to talk about that last game and give us some of the history before and after that game too. So it comes full circle on there. But you, you have some interesting topics like this all the time on your website.

Maybe you could tell folks how they could engage and read your stuff. Yeah. So just go to footballarchaeology.com, you know, bookmark it, go there whenever you want.

Alternatively, you can, you can subscribe, subscribe for free. You can follow me on Twitter or on threads or on the Substack app and, you know, read it as you please. All right.

He is Timothy P. Brown of footballarchaeology.com. And Tim, we thank you for joining us in this, giving us another glimpse of football history. And we'd love to talk to you again next Tuesday. Very good.

We'll do 101 next week.

101. Thanks, Tim.

All right.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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For college football fanatics, few names inspire more reverence than Walter Steffen. A coaching giant whose legacy stretches across decades, Steffen's impact on the game is undeniable. Now, you have a chance to delve into his wisdom in a captivating video interview with Timothy Brown of FootballArchaeology.com. This exclusive conversation promises a treasure trove of insights, offering a glimpse into the mind of a true gridiron mastermind. So, buckle up and get ready to learn from a master coach as we explore Walter Steffen's storied career and the timeless knowledge he brings to the game.

-Transcription of Walter Steffen with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another date with Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com, where he's going to share one of his recent tidbits on some of the facets of football from yesteryear.

Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen. Darin, thank you. Looking forward to chatting and judging you based on the quality of the questions that you asked this episode.

Oh my gosh. Okay, we're back. I will be the judge.

Folks, we are back to the dad joke segues. We've had some quizzes lately and some factoids, but now we are back to Tim Brown and his finest segueing into an article that you wrote not too long ago, titled Judging Walter Steffen's Coaching Career. So Walter Steffen is an interesting figure indeed in football history.

So what do you get on him, Tim? Yeah, so, you know, you and I were talking a little bit before we started the episode proper. And, you know, Steffen is just one of these guys, and it's a name that I kept coming across over and over again. And I was just like, sometimes I got to, you know, kind of look into this guy and figure out what he was about.

And he turned out to just be this really interesting character that just is impossible to imagine today. Right? I mean, he just lived a life that no one can live anymore, not at the major college level.

You could do it at D3, which is probably the right situation, but in high schools, you know, but not at the major college level. So, I mean, you know, he really, you know, kind of a classic guy.

He grew up in Chicago, you know, 1880s, 1890s. He ends up at the University of Chicago as a freshman in the fall of 1905. So he's playing for, you know, the famous Alonzo Stagg.

So, he's on, you know, 1905, Chicago was national champs. So, he's in a pretty major deal as far as, you know, football is concerned. In 1906, Walter Eckersall was the All-American quarterback at Chicago.

So, Steffen is the, you know, second fiddle running at halfback. But then Eckersall graduates, if he graduated. He wasn't much of a student, but anyways, he leaves.

Steffen became a quarterback in his last two years, and he became an All-American quarterback as well. So, and this is him carrying the ball back here. I see the only guy without any head protection.

Yeah, and so, I may actually have the wrong image up there. Anyways, but he played in that era. So, Steffen is hanging out around Chicago.

He goes, he was unlike Eckersall. He was an excellent student and went to the University of Chicago Law School. While he's going to law school, he assists Stagg on the football team.

And so, and then, you know, he graduated from law school and worked a couple of years in the law. And, you know, it's hard to trace whether he was, you know, he may have assisted with some schools. I know he did some refereeing and things like that, which was pretty typical of the time.

But in 1914, he became the head coach at Carnegie Tech in Pittsburgh. And so, you know, he was living in Chicago. And back then, it was not uncommon at all.

There were a lot of coaches who would live in one city for nine months of the year, and then they'd go coach wherever they were coaching for the other three. And so, that's what he did. So, he hadn't, you know, he was a first; he was a Chicago alderman for a while.

He, you know, worked in different government capacities, you know, in law. And then, so, you know, he basically, in the fall, he would, he would basically move to Pittsburgh to run the team. And then, you know, probably maintain some level of practice.

But basically, you know, he'd shut down whatever his business was, you know, for those three months, and then return and, you know, work as a lawyer the rest of the year. So, in 1922, he became a Cook County judge and Chicago's in Cook County. So, what he did was he couldn't just go to Pittsburgh for three months of the year.

So, he basically stayed in Chicago, and then he would travel on the weekend to Pittsburgh if it was a home game or wherever they were playing. You know, whoever they were playing, he traveled to the game. And then there was a guy who was a former Carnegie player, I believe, but there was a guy who basically ran the show during the week, a real trusted assistant. So, and all the time that he was there, he was upgrading the schedule.

So, Carnegie had been playing, you know, kind of the smaller schools, schools are now, you know, D3 schools in, you know, Western Pennsylvania, Eastern Ohio, you know, that kind of type of school. But while he was there, he started upgrading. And so, they're playing, you know, basically a national schedule, but more, you know, like a Midwestern, you know, Midwestern schedule, mostly against, or at least a mix of kind of the smaller schools, like a lot of teams did.

And then they were playing, you know, some top talent. So, just as an example, in 26, they opened the season, they beat, you know, three lesser teams, and then they go on a run, and they beat Pitt, who has had been national champs a bunch of times by then. Detroit, who was playing, you know, pretty solid football.

West Virginia, who used to kind of not be very good, but by then was starting to, you know, come around to be a pretty good football team. And then they went, they hosted and beat a team called Notre Dame, was being coached by Newt Rockne at the time. But this is 1926.

And that was the year that, you know, Rockne and Notre Dame won the 1925 national title. So, they were big stuff. However, in 1926, Soldier Field opened in Chicago.

And that game, the stadium opened with the Army-Navy game. Well, Rockne was in Chicago for that game, while his team was in Pittsburgh, playing Carnegie Tech. And Carnegie Tech beat them.

Which was like, it was a massive, you know, massive story. I mean, the only thing that, so the Army-Navy game was just a huge story in the papers, you know, nationwide. Second to that was the fact that Carnegie Tech had beaten Notre Dame, you know, reigning national champs.

You know, which nobody had expected. So, then, to show that that wasn't just a total fluke, in 1928, Carnegie Tech went to Notre Dame. So, they go to South Bend.

And they beat Notre Dame there. So, that was Notre Dame's first loss in South Bend under Rockne. It also made Carnegie Tech and Stephan the only team or coach to beat Notre Dame twice, while Rockne was the head coach.

Other than Nebraska, under Fred Dawson, did it twice. And then Howard Jones beat Rockne at Notre Dame when he was coaching Iowa, and then twice when he was coaching USC. So, Howard Jones has won up on Walter Stephan.

But nevertheless, I mean, so it's one of these things like you hear nowadays, well, Carnegie Tech, and now it's Carnegie Mellon because, you know, the schools merged. But and you think, ah, you know, that's not big-time football. Well, it was, you know, if you beat the reigning national champ, you're playing pretty good ball, right?

And then when you beat him two years later, you're still playing pretty, pretty good ball. So, he ended up from 1922 through the 1932 season, he basically, they used to call him the commuter coach, living in Chicago, you know, take the train into whatever city they were playing in, coach him game day, and then head back, you know. And so, you know, how they kept it, how he kept in touch with the assistant who was running things day to day.

I don't know, but, you know, they did very, very well. Just, you know, another thing that was kind of fun is he was the guy who gets primarily credited with inventing the spinner play. So, you know, anybody listening, you've seen these, if you've watched any old-time football film, you've seen the spinner, where a lot of times it'll, the ball might get hiked to a quarterback, or a fullback, who's, you know, kind of, who basically catches the ball, like literally does a 360 in place, as they're faking handoffs to different people.

And then they might, you know, kind of do like a QB sort of draw, or they might run left or right, or, you know, or handoff. So, the spinner was a huge thing starting in the mid-20s when he first, you know, implemented it. And it remained in place, you know, probably mid-30s when it was dying out.

However, there are a couple of other little factoids about the spinner, such as that he first used it in 1924. And the guy who was, who ran that play, it was a guy named Dick, I've never been sure of his name, I think it's Bede, but maybe it's Bede. And he was the guy who became the Youngstown State coach.

And he's the guy who invented football's penalty flag when he was coaching Youngstown. And then people who aren't that into, you know, older football stuff, maybe recognize the fact that one of his last quarterbacks, or perhaps the last quarterback that he coached at Youngstown, was a guy named Ron Jaworski. So, anyway, that's the little tidbit on that one.

But, so then, you know, he ends up 1932, announces he's going to retire, he just can't, you know, he's starting to get a little ill, I guess, and just couldn't keep up the pace. And so, you know, he ended up with an 88-53-9 record. So, you know.

Respectable. Yeah, especially at a school like that and playing the kind of schools that he played. And then, so, 32, if people remember from an episode or two ago, that's the year Amos Alonzo Stagg is let go at Chicago.

So, he's, you know, Stefan's retiring from Carnegie Tech. So, basically, he and Fritz Kreisler were the guys everybody said, oh, they're going to use one of these, they're going to name one of these guys to replace Stagg. And instead, they brought in Clark Shaughnessy from Tulane, who was, you know, kind of the father of the modern T formation.

So, and then, unfortunately, you know, poor health, he passed away in 1937. So, he didn't get to live the good, long life that Stagg lived. But, you know, he may have been one of the last of the, you know, he was certainly one of the last of these part-time coaches at a, you know, in a major school environment at the time.

You know, probably at the time, they would have been like a G5-ish or G3 or whatever. However, there are more. You know, that level of football. And here he's a judge in Chicago, you know, lawyer, that's what he does.

You know, a couple of episodes ago, I mentioned Clarence Spears, who's a physician. There were a bunch of guys like that, you know, but he was one of the last ones who was, you know, still running a major program. And then in his case, especially, he wasn't even there, you know, during the season, you know, the commuter coach.

So, really an interesting, you know, days gone by, you know, kind of deal, yeah, just when we think that our lives are busy dealing with football on a daily basis, you have guys like him and, you know, the Paw Porners and Fielding Yost that sometimes coach multiple teams in a season and these commuter coaches and did some other full-time jobs. So, yeah, it's amazing to think about that era of football.

Yeah, I think he had five kids, too. So, you know, he was a busy man. Well, at least the chores got done at home.

I didn't have to do them all. So, that's good. Tim that is some great stuff that, you know, is a gentleman that we probably don't hear about very many places in this day and age.

And it's great to have some preservation of Mr. Stephan and his accomplishments and some of the things that he did, you know, beating Notre Dame twice and, you know, all the other things that he did, which is amazing. So, you have things like this all the time going on on footballarchaeology.com, and you share them in some little bite-sized chunks. So, maybe you could explain that to everybody and how they can enjoy it.

Sure. Just go to footballarchaeology.com, and, you know, you can subscribe. You'll get an email every time a new article is posted.

Otherwise, follow me on Twitter, on the Substack app or on threads, or just go out to Football Archaeology, you know, kind of whenever you please and see what some of the new articles are out there or check out the archives. There's a search function. Just put in a topic and see if there's something out there.

Well, sir, we thank you once again for helping us understand football of yesteryear and how it became the mega game that it is today that everybody enjoys. And it's these little pieces getting put together in a history that really make it enjoyable. And we thank you for sharing it again and we'd love to talk to you again next week.

Very good. Thank you, sir.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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This is something that sports fans probably take for granted in the modern scoreboard when attending an athletic event. These generally large appendages are an information hub for what is happening in the event.

The questions arise: Who invented the scoreboard concept and when? What problem did the invention and resolve?

-Arthur Irwin and the First Football Scoreboards

A great piece of gridiron history comes from a famous baseball player who designed the template for the modern scoreboard. Timothy P Brown tells the tale of Arthur Irwin and his invention.

-Transcribed Conversation on Arthur Irwin Scoreboard with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another evening when we will be honored with the presence of Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.
Hey, thanks, Darin.

And the honor is all mine. All mine, sir.

No, no, it's me and the listeners. We get this weekly treat where you reminisce about a piece you've written recently and your daily tidbits. We get to talk to you about it, pick your brain, and learn something new about football history. Tonight, we will go up on the scoreboard and learn a little about that and some of its associations with other sports.

Then, I'll let you talk about this gentleman and his invention. Yeah, so this one is one of my favorite stories in a while, largely because this is one where I just really learned something. It's one of those where, you know, I don't know, I'm, you know, I probably put in 20, 30, 40 hours of research in the past on maybe more, you know, on a couple of different topics related to early scoreboards and game simulations and things like that. And I'd always seen them as three separate things floating around, you know, in the ether that wasn't connected.

And then, for some reason, I was, you know, checking into, you know, doing another dig on scoreboards. And I came across a mention of an Irwin scoreboard, which, if I'd seen it before, I don't remember it. So I dig into that.

And all of a sudden, it's like, everything makes sense. Everything is connected, so it was just like this great revelation for me. So, I mean, the story is that there's this guy, Arthur Irwin, who, perhaps people who are into old-time baseball would know because he played like 13 years in the majors.

He was also a player-manager in the latter part of his playing career. And then he, you know, once he was done playing, he continued managing. So, there was a point in his career when he was managing the Phillies.

And as was the case back then, baseball players needed jobs after the season. So, being an athlete, he got a job as a trainer at Penn, you know, University of Pennsylvania. So, you know, back then, the trainers were like the guys who would physically condition athletes across sports.

They were the guys who would diagnose, you know, they didn't have sports medicine per se back then. So they were the guys who'd figure out how to resolve a Charlie horse, you know, how to, you know, fix a sprain, tape them up. So that was his role.

But while he's there, he designs and builds a scoreboard. And I think it was actually before they had Franklin Field, but, you know, he builds a scoreboard for, you know, for Penn. Because prior to that, everybody used baseball scoreboards, you know, if they were in a baseball stadium or they didn't have any scoreboards.

So he builds this thing, and it's got the rudiments of what scoreboards have today. You know, down a distance, you know, it said who had the ball and who was in possession. It had a little thing up at the top, a little kind of a football field graphic that they'd moved this football along, you know, as the team progressed on the field. So things like that.

Then he ends up patenting it. So, you know, there are drawings on his patent application that show the format of this scoreboard. And then I found a couple of early photographs of his scoreboards, you know, up there on the field, and they look, you know, just like his patent application.

So then what happens is, you know, he builds a business while he builds multiple scoreboards. And, you know, in some cases, they permanently install in locations, and in other cases, as he moves them around, you know, they're like the Goodyear Blimp; they show up at different places. But, you know, he's hired to do it.

He then has people, and he staffs the operation when a scoreboard is being used. And in the course of all that, you know, they had to develop a system of, you know, they didn't have really telephones on the field, and they didn't have walkie-talkies or, you know, those kinds of things. So they developed this signal system, what they would call wig wagging back in the day.

So a guy or two on the field would follow the plays and, you know, use these contortions, something similar to the semaphore flags of, you know, in the military or like referee signals, you know, they contorted their bodies, or they spelled out letters. They would essentially communicate with the guys operating the scoreboard, the down and distance, who had substituted whatever information they had. And so, you know, it became this thing that, you know, for the big games in the East, you pretty much, you know, it became an expectation. You have an Irwin scoreboard up there, and everybody knew what the Irwin scoreboard was.

So when they built Harvard Stadium, then I think they, you know, I've never gotten a real, I've got one image that isn't too great of an early scoreboard there. So, you know, I think it was an advanced version of an Irwin scoreboard, but he ended up hiring a guy whose name was Eddie Morris. He ends up being the wigwag.

You know, he always wore a red sweater and a white hat. And for about 20 years, everybody at this guy was following along. Sometimes, he'd be out on the field doing his signals up to the guys in the box or up on the scoreboard.

And so he became like, before mascots, he became like one of the mascots, you know, something like that. And so anyways, you know, then they also started at Harvard, where he would signal in, like who made the tackle, who ran the ball, those kinds of things. And so they were selling, you know, scorecards that had the number of each of the players.

Now, the players didn't wear the numbers, but there was a number on a scorecard for Smith and Jones. And then if Smith made the tackle and Jones made the run, they'd signal that and they'd post those numbers, the corresponding numbers up on the scoreboard. So it was just a way to, you know, for the people in the stands to kind of know who the heck was who, because nobody wore numbers and they all look the same and, you know, whatever.

And they're just running in these mushes. You know, that was the nature of football at the time. So then eventually, you know, then later on, obviously they added numbers to the players, you know, on their jerseys.

The other thing that he did was they would do the Irwin scoreboards in the gymnasiums or in theaters. So they do it, especially for an away game, and they'll get connected by telephone or telegraph. And then, so it became a thing where you'd pay some money, go to the theater, and you could watch the game as a simulation based on what was happening down in Philadelphia, you know if you were in Boston.

And they even did it in Boston. They do games at Harvard, and for the big games, like the Princeton and Yale games, those would sell out. And so people who couldn't get into the game would go to the theater to watch the simulation. And then, so, I mean, it's just kind of crazy stuff like that.

Now that that image you have from 1893 and so, I mean, listeners, you can go to the show notes, and we have a link that'll take you right to Tim's article, and you can, you can see this image, and it's sort of like a sketch of what the intention of what the board should be for 1893. But it's really interesting because at the top, as you said earlier, they've got a thing called field board, and it's got an image of a football that sort of slides down, and the points of the ball indicate what yard line, I guess, the ball is on for the, for the next down. And it almost reminds me of the modern day, if you're watching an NFL game and you follow on nfl.com or cbs.com and you want to know real play because you can't watch a game or whatever your, you know, your wife makes you go shopping or something.

You can see, you know, where the plays are going. So it was kind of interesting, you know, 130 years ago, when similar technology started then. So that's really cool.

Yeah. Yeah. From a representation.

So, and that image is right from his, it's just the front page of his patent, you know, documents. So yeah, I mean, fundamentally, you know, everything that he had listed on his early thing is right there, you know? So, and as you said, you know, I mean, I do that where I'm like, I'm watching one game, and I got another one on my computer that I'm just, you know, tracking the, the progress of the game. Right.

So, right. Yeah, it's definitely very cool. So now the other thing that's really, that's pretty bizarre about this guy is that he ends up, you know, so at the time, you know, I mean, he was a ball player, so he was traveling a lot of the year and then he would, you know, when he's doing these scoreboards, he's traveling basically on the East coast.

And at one point, he was diagnosed, I don't know if he was formally diagnosed with cancer, but basically, he was told, you know, you don't have long to live. And so he gets on a boat and goes from New York to Boston and falls overboard or just jumps in the water to end it. And so he, he dies.

And then, as they're trying to settle his estate, it turns out that, you know, kind of came up that he had a wife in New York and another one in Boston, you know, with children on it. No wonder he had to keep score. He had to know what was going on.

You need to make some cash. Yeah. So anyways, I mean, it's, it's a sad, a sad end, but yeah, I mean, so just kind of a bizarre ending to a pretty wild story, but you know, for me, it just brought together the simulation.

So, I mean, I now believe he was his, you know, Irwin's scoreboard was the first simulation. He was the designer of the first football-specific scoreboard. And then, you know, I'd always made a big deal out of the Harvard stadium sport and their wigwag system.

And then I, you know, now kind of understand that he was the one behind that. And that is, his stuff was around, you know, ten years earlier, you know, maybe not as quite sophisticated form, but nevertheless. Very interesting.

And it's great that you see them, especially that image from 1893, and the similarities to our modern scoreboard still carry on the tradition of what he started. It's just a fascinating and a great testament, a great idea. Yeah.

It was pretty brilliant. That's a great story, Tim; I appreciate that you're sharing that with us. Like you do every day on the tidbits that you have from footballarchaeology.com, and maybe you could share with the listeners how they, too, could get into the tidbits.

Yeah. So ideally, you go to www.footballarchaeology.com and subscribe, and you'll get an email every, every evening, seven o'clock Eastern with, you know, just basically it got the contents of that, of that night's story. You can also just bookmark it and, you know, go whenever you want.

I also post links on Twitter and on threads as well as on the Substack app because my site—I've got my own name for it—is actually a Substack application. So those are the ways to get there and have at it. Yeah.

And help you keep your score on the scoreboard each and every night. So. I do.

We definitely appreciate you sharing your story and bringing some of this football antiquity to us to our modern day making it relevant again and carrying on and letting us know the name of Arthur Irwin and his great idea that he had and some great stories from him too. I also forgot to mention, he was the first non-catcher, non-first baseman to wear a glove in the major leagues. And so Spalding then sold the Irwin glove, you know, throughout the 1890s and early aughts.

So I forgot to mention that, but that's another, you know, he's a big deal in baseball. Yeah. Wow.

It's definitely an all-around sport. We can all thank him for the sports that we watch. So wow.

Some great stuff, Tim. We appreciate it. And we will talk to you again next week.

Okay. Thanks, Darin. All right.

Bye.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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When did American Football actually first start being played? Timothy P. Brown answers the question of when football began, dispelling many of the mainstream experts' erroneous preconceptions.

While there's no single definitive date for the birth of American football, several key events and influences mark its evolution from a blend of other sports to the game we know today:

-1869: The first intercollegiate game played between Rutgers and Princeton using rules heavily influenced by soccer. This is often cited as the "official" birth of American football. It was more like soccer than anything else, though.

-1876: The Intercollegiate Football Association (IFA) is formed, standardizing rules and fostering the development of a more unified game.

-1880s: Walter Camp, known as the "Father of American Football," introduces key rule changes like the line of scrimmage, the snap, and the forward pass, shaping the game into its modern form.

-1892: The first professional game is played between the Allegheny Athletic Association and the Pittsburgh Athletic Club.

-1906: The forward pass is legalized, revolutionizing the game and opening up possibilities for aerial attacks.

-Transcribed Conversation of When Football Started with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes, PigskinDispatch.com. And once again, it's Tuesday. We're going to have another great chat with football archaeology's Timothy P. Brown.

Tim, welcome back. And glad you're here tonight.

Thank you, Darin. I'm glad to be here myself. It's always a good thing, isn't it? Yeah, you know, I'm starting to get to the age where it becomes dope. But I know that I am. Here I am.

I know the feeling. Well, we're certainly glad you're here tonight.

And we're even more happy that you're here to talk a little bit about football history from one of your recent tidbits. And you've got one that really caught my eye, and I think it would be very interesting to all listeners interested in football history. And that's when did the football history really begin? When did the start of football happen? Yeah.

So, you know, I wrote that piece. It was actually the anniversary, the first anniversary of today's tidbits. So that's why I chose that topic to say, OK, what better thing to talk about than where did football begin? And so, you know, the received wisdom would be that football began with the games between Rutgers and Princeton in 1869.

So and then, but you kind of have to go like, well, why do we consider that to be the first football game? What was it about those two games that made it the start of football? And for me, when I look at it, I go, well, though that wasn't the start of football, I don't, you know, I mean, yes. You know, I wrote a book about the hundred first hundred first 50 years of football, and I based it off the ninth or 1869 date. So, you know, I'm part of the problem, but I'm trying to make amends.

So they've got everybody drinking that Kool-Aid. That's right. That's right.

You know, so but, you know, it really kind of comes back to, you know, what was going on back then and, you know, regardless of what was happening. How would you judge? You know, what is the basis of when a new game begins? It's kind of like the difficulty biologists get into in terms of evolution. When does a new species begin? You know, what came first, the chicken or the chicken or the egg? But in this case, I mean, for me, you know, I look at at that the 1869 games.

And it was a, you know, negotiated rule, but it mostly resembled association football or what we call soccer. You know, you couldn't carry the ball. It was a round ball.

There were 25 players per side, and, you know, there were other things going on. So, like, was that really football? I mean, it was an intercollegiate game between two schools, but those had happened before, too. So, you know, in my mind, the main reason it's considered the start of football is that Park H. Davis went to Princeton, whatever, you know, 25 years later than that.

And he is the first football historian. And he decided that that was the first that was the start of football. And so, therefore, you know, given the influence that he has had on football history, that's what it is, you know, and then nobody ever doubts that.

I mean, a lot of other people have, but. And I just look at it and say, OK, so that's not good enough. You know, what would mark the start of the game of football? And for me, I think of it as when did when did football break away from.

Soccer or rugby, it's kind of two, you know, origin, you know, origin games, but it wasn't a wasn't a soccer game. So I'm then saying, OK, get rid of soccer. When did football move away from rugby? And for me, it's it's the 1876 meeting where the IFA set up a new set of rules.

So. The IFA, the Intercollegiate Football Association, was founded three years earlier, but they adopted soccer, you know, I mean, they didn't adopt this specific set of rules; they just said, hey, we're going to follow the association game rules from London. So they were just playing soccer.

Then, the next year, Harvard plays McGill. First in a Boston rules game, then in a rugby game, and they end up saying, hey, we like this rugby game. So they start playing it, and then they play Yale the next year in what they call the concessionary rules game, which is a mix of, you know, an adapted rugby game.

And then in 76, they adopt what are now the basis of they adopted the IFA rules, which is the basis of football. And then. You know, from there, you can trace.

You know, those rules got adopted and then adapted year after year after year, and there's a continuous line of football rules that come from that original 1876 set that are now the rules we play under today, you know, and in the 1890s and early 1900s, there were multiple rules committees, and there were some conflicts because one group didn't like the other. But at the end of the day, you know, all of the all those committees all use, you know, the preceding rules that had come from 1876. So, for me, I look at it as, hey, they created a new set of rules, and they only made a couple of changes from the rugby rules of the day, but they took a different path.

Rugby then went on and made all kinds of changes to their game. You know, so the rugby game of 1876 is not the game that's played today. They made a lot of changes, too.

But, you know, our football took a different path. And, you know, it's kind of like, you know, maybe anybody who's, you know, Catholic or Lutheran or maybe, you know, Episcopalian, something like that, where there's this whole succession of bishops, you know, from Peter all on down finds that logic attractive, you know, or understands that logic. But it's, yeah, there's a succession from here, you know, from a starting point to now.

And that's kind of the way I see the IFA rules. It was a starting point for football. Let me entertain you.

Oh, wait, you're not going to argue with me, are you? No, I'm not going to argue. I'm just going to propose something to you. All right.

I totally agree with you. The 1869 Princeton Rutgers game. And I agree with your whole theory on Park H. Davis having the influence on it.

Of course, Park H. Davis, in that 1911 book, also had biblical references to football, Roman, and Greek. And he had a bunch of ancient societies football. So the people really hung on to the Princeton Rutgers game.

But I agree with you. Let's take that out of the equation. I don't know.

I mean, I think the IFA rules were important to the development of football. But I think the 1880 rules meeting when Walter Camp proposed the line of scrimmage in the center and the quarterback followed through, players were 11 aside. That was sort of when that got sort of hammered in stone.

And I almost wonder, could we not consider that the birth of American football? 1880. Well, yeah. So, I mean, by your logic, I could argue that 1906 is the birth because that's when the forward pass came in.

So, I mean, you're totally right that 1880 was a big deal. 1884 was a big deal. The whole 1906 to 1912 period was a big deal.

But I would just always go back to the fact that 1876, the rules that they modified and made some like line of scrimmage and things like that in possession in the 1880 or early 80s, those still, they were modifying the rules that they set in 1876. So, it was. I've posted this on an earlier tidbit, but if you go to the Canadian Football Research Association site, they have an 1873 set of rules that they adopted, which are almost word for word, the ones that were the rugby rules at the time and that the Americans then adapted. So, but for me, it's just, they formally said, these are the rules we are going to play under.

The game has been played under those rules since then, subject to annual changes. But that's the point when they said, here's, we're going to play this new game. In fact, in the first half or most of the season of 1876, they played under the kind of a mixture of rules, but the games played after that meeting followed the 1876 rules.

And so, you're saying that because of the standardized rules that were adopted widespread, that's OK. I'm basing it more on 1880 is when American football shot off of rugby and became basically a different game. That's scrimmage from scrummage thing.

That's why I said, but I will, you know, defend what you say to the hilt because that's your right. The standard rules came out, and that's the derivative of what American football came out of. So, yeah.

And I mean, there's lots of things like, you know, the scrimmage thing that was going on before 1876. And I mean, it was just a terminology difference. They were using scrimmage and scrimmage in the UK and here.

So, you know, now the difference is obviously in 1880, you know, you had what we now really consider a scrimmage. So, controlled possession of the ball for multiple downs, right? So, you know, so you retain possession. It wasn't the toss the ball, you know, in the middle kind of thing.

But, you know, I guess I view that as just one rule to change the game, but there have been hundreds and thousands of rule changes. And while I consider that one of the top 11 changes, it's just one of the top 11. Yeah.

But I guess at the end of the day, if you look at those three games that were association football, rugby, American football, they're, you know, probably the three of the most successful athletic ventures of organized sports in the world that has popularity right now. You know, they're definitely in the probably top five. I reached back and grabbed a book that I still hadn't finished, but it was by a guy named Tony Collins.

He's a professor in the UK. The book is called How Football Began. And he basically, you know, goes back to the stew of games that was going on in the UK.

And, you know, I think sometimes we have this impression, or at least I always, you know, used to have the impression that, well, they just had, you know, they just had a couple of different versions. But in fact, you know, in the UK, they had a bunch of different versions of football, and then they kind of started consolidating, and you got into an amateur and professional differences, which is, you know, we're like rugby union and, you know, rugby, you know, anyways. Anyway, it's a really interesting book, and it gets into Australian rules and other things.

So it's just, you know, he kind of goes from where everything was muddled together to how it started breaking off. So it's really a fun read. If somebody's interested in period football, I would say definitely grab that one.

But it's really interesting. Well, Tim, a great subject, great discussion. Really appreciate you being able to talk about that.

Why don't you share with the audience where they can get information like your tidbits that this came out of on a daily basis? Yeah, it's very simple. I've got a site on the Substack platform, but it's just footballarchaeology.com. So you just go on and check out an article and there's a sign up process that you go through. And so you subscribe for free and then you'll get an email every day.

In your inbox is whatever that day's article is. Other people subscribe on Twitter. But if you're interested enough, I'd say just subscribe to the site.

And I have some people that read 10 articles in a row and they just store them up when they're flying or whatever it is. But other people read stuff every day. So either way, do what you want.

All right. Excellent. It's a great investment of time, whether you do it daily or build up 10 of them.

It's a great read and something different every day. And I highly recommend it. Tim Brown of footballarchaeology.com. Thank you very much for joining us.

And we'll talk to you again next week. Thank you, sir. Enjoyed it as always.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Timothy P. Brown joins us on the discussion to explain why we read of the coaching exploits of Walter Camp in California.

This conversation is based on Tim's original Tidbit titled: Walter Camp's California Adventures.

-Transcribed Chat Walter Camp Going to California with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history. And we are in Tuesday mode again.

Starting off this new year right, we have Timothy P. Brown of Football Archaeology joining us to talk about another exciting tidbit that he's had come out recently. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen. Hey, Darren.

Thank you. Thank you. I hope you had a great holiday.

I certainly did and planning to enjoy them some more. Yeah, it's, you know, football season is still going on here. Just got done with the bowl games and now we're getting ready for playoffs in the professional level.

So, we have some great football history to talk about all month long and all year long. And we're glad that you're here to be a part of it. A great subject that we're going to talk about tonight, Tim, that comes from one of your October tidbits.

A little bit on the founder and father of modern football, Walter Camp, sounds like a very interesting topic. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, anytime you can pull Walter Camp into a conversation, you're probably on pretty solid ground.

But, you know, I think that the thing that I enjoyed about this particular, that particular tidbit is really just kind of, you know, if you just step back and think about what the world was like and what California was like back in the 1890s when he, you know, he had been coaching, advising, you know, with Yale. And then kind of stepped away a bit, still did a lot of the executive management stuff for, you know, for the Yale Athletic Association. But, you know, he had a company to run, and the New Haven Clock Company was his family company, so he's doing all that.

But he still, you know, kind of got the call from people out at Stanford. They wanted him to come on out and teach him a thing or two about football, you know. And it's just, you know, you kind of have to step back then because I think the Intercontinental Railroad was, you know, not that old by the time, you know, by, say, 1892.

So, here's this guy in Connecticut traveling all the way across the country and, you know, brought his wife along, but still, you know, he's, at that time, it had to be a week-long trip, you know, on the railroad just to cross the country. If it's anything I know from a lot of the Rose Bowl teams that were going out there from the East Coast, like New York City, when Columbia went, it was a six-day trip. So, I assume that's got to be pretty close to what Camp was traveling.

Yeah. And I'm more, you know, I'm maybe more knowledgeable about some of the Midwestern teams, but they were, you know, four and five-day trips, you know, and this is in the 20s, you know, or in the late teens, you know, that time period. So, you know, I mean, he was out there early on because people were still sailing, you know, from the East Coast to the West Coast.

And that was, and that's no Panama Canal. That's right. So, they're going a long way.

But anyway, so he goes out there, and there had been a series of other, you know, recent graduates. So, somebody, you know, who was just a year or two out of school, who had gone out to the West Coast to help, you know, teach football and help them, you know, kind of get up to speed. And so, you know, despite all that distance, one of the things that strike me is just how often, I mean, I know, you know, I did an article on shoulder pads recently, and, you know, they showed up at Yale in like, whatever it was, 1888 or something, that kind of time frame.

And sure enough, like a year later, the guys at Cal and Stanford are wearing them, you know. So, pretty much everything transferred, but, you know, it required some messengers. And so, he becomes a messenger.

And he went out there in 1892, and then in 93 and 95 as well, you know, sometimes arriving, you know, after the Yale season was over. But in California, they played a lot later. You know, they didn't necessarily play in September.

You know, they'd take a game if they got one. So, a lot of times, they played a little bit later, so he could be there for, you know, most of the season. But the other thing, really, that's striking, I just think, is that, you know, there just weren't that many teams to play.

You know, part of the point about the article is they end up playing like, you know, two pretty famous teams in the Bay Area. One was the San Francisco Olympic Club. They, you know, like a lot of these athletic clubs, they had, you know, pretty strong teams.

Reliance Athletic Club was the other one. But, like, they played, those guys, like, one of the years, Cal played one of them two times; the other one, it was a reverse for Stanford. And there just weren't that many other teams.

You know, I mean, you could go down to LA, which was a trip, and Stanford did that over the holidays once or twice. And you could go to the Northwest to play somebody in Portland. But otherwise, you know, I mean, really, even in the 20s, the West Coast, the teams that we think of as the top teams on the West Coast now, they were still playing like, you know, the USS Pennsylvania and, you know, battleships moored in port.

You know, they'd have their teams, and so they play them in their early in the season. They play Chemiwa and Sherman, which are both, you know, Native American schools. Even like Arizona, you know, I mean, those schools were pretty dinky.

There just weren't many people living in Arizona, you know, back then. So pretty dinky schools, and, you know, they would play like the Occidentals of the world and, you know, that kind of thing. And then, you know, I think we talked about it before, but USC didn't become a big deal until the 20s, you know.

So anyways, you know, he's going out there, and basically, there are two schools of any note on the West Coast, Cal and Stanford. They're rivals, and, you know, they kind of try to knock each other off in the big game. But, you know, it's just kind of an interesting story how knowledge of football disseminated from these guys who had just played in the previous years with, you know, Stanford, or not Stanford, but, you know, Harvard, Yale, Princeton.

And then you get Walter Camp, of all people, to head out there and, you know, try to show him a few things. And, you know, he seems to have been reasonably successful, you know. And anyway, it just, I don't know, it's just, it's like a time capsule for me.

It's just a strange period. There must have been some kind of a pipeline going from the East, like the Yales and Harvards, out to California. I remember there's a story somewhere that I read about Leland being the coach at Harvard.

And he was; I think he was bringing in the wedge designed for kickoff or something. He was going to spring it on Yale as a surprise. They were practicing in secret and everything.

He also said something to somebody who had traveled out to California. This person went out there and casually talked about it at some restaurant. And somebody from Yale overheard them, telegraphed back to Camp, and said, hey, this is what they're planning to do.

And, of course, Camp had the answer for doing it. And so Harvard was the one in surprise. The trap that wasn't set on Yale was set on Harvard.

So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I recall the story. I hadn't, you know, thought about it in that context, but yeah, it's a perfect fit. You know, it's really, I mean, just amazing the, you know, just the difference in time.

And yet, you know, they're still, they're playing this game that, you know, we still play today, you know, just a little bit different conditions, but, you know, like UCLA, you know, was a normal school, you know, back in the 1890s. So, you know, they really didn't really become big time until the thirties, maybe even, you know, maybe even the forties, but, you know, when they had the, you know, like Robinson and some of those guys in the late thirties, you know, they were certainly. Yeah.

It's just surprising how fast it spread. Cause I know we've talked about it a few times where, when a university of Chicago started taking shape with Amos Alonzo Stagg coming from the East, you know, that was the far West. And, you know, we got to go all the way to Chicago to play these teams, you know, another, what, 1500 miles to the West coast from there, or maybe it's 2000 miles, I'm not sure, distance.

And, you know, just a few years later, they're starting to become power. So very interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you know, there was, whenever anybody wrote, you know, really till probably World War I, you know, most time, they're saying, well, the football out West that meant Midwest, you know, and otherwise they didn't sort of far, the far West or the Pacific coast or something like that. But West, you know, I mean, the big 10 was the Western Conference.

So, you know, that kind of gives you a sense. And even like those silly boys from Michigan, they still, you know, sing about being the champions of the West. Right.

Right. That's it. It's in their song, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So, wow. So I was here most of the time, but nevertheless.

Hey, it's all good. It's all good. Yeah.

So, hey, well, we appreciate you. You're bringing this as another great, a little bit of a football history. And we just love hearing these tidbits and reading about them each and every day.

And once you share with the listeners where they too can learn about your tidbits each and every day. Yeah. So, you know, there's two ways.

The best way is to just find footballarchaeology.com and subscribe. It's free to subscribe. There are paid versions.

Most of that helps me buy stuff that I show, you know, either books or postcards or whatever it may be. So help support Tim's habits. Yes.

Please support my habits. And then, you know, I also, at the current time, I'm still tweeting out that stuff every day. And it's, you know, that's become such a mess there that I'm not sure how much longer I'll do it, but we'll see.

You know, as long as I'm getting some reaction from people on Twitter, then I'll do it, I guess. But anyways, best way and to make sure you don't miss anything, join or subscribe, and then you'll get an email every day. Every time I tweet or post anything, you get an email about it and read them if you want, delete them if you want.

Yep. They're always good reading and they don't take very long to do. Usually 20 seconds to a minute probably.

And I usually find myself engrossed in whatever image you have included in it. And that's what I spend most of my time looking at because I know that's sort of where you usually center your ideas from finding an image. That's what we're talking about, these habits that Tim's buying.

He's buying, you know, postcards and books and old programs and finding photographs and just finding little hidden gems in there that I would overlook, and probably most people would, but Tim finds them and brings up some great football attributes, a football history to it. So, we really appreciate that. Well, it's fun.

It's fun, but yeah, join up if you're interested. Otherwise, keep listening to these as well. So.

Yeah. Tim's taken Where's Waldo to a whole new level, looking for the football history in this photograph. So, Tim, thanks a lot for joining us, and we'll talk to you again next week.

Hey, very good. Thank you.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Knockoffs and copy cat manufacturing are each nefarious elements of open Capitalism and industry. There have even been many times that football equipment and ideas have been copied and sold.

Timothy Brown examines some cases of Bootleg footballs,on a recent Tidbit he wrote on his Football Archaeology website, It all comes from his original article titled: Bootleg Footballs and Changing Specifications, concerning the 1925-1926 GoldSmith catalog and the "Slim Jim" ball. Tim shared the story with us on the podcast.

-Transcription of Bootleged Footballs with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to the portal that we're going to go back in time and look at some great football archaeology, some great old stuff that our friend Timothy P. Brown of FootballArchaeology.com is going to share with us from one of his recent tidbits. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Darin, thank you. Looking forward to chatting about bootleg footballs. It's kind of an interesting idea or issue. Everybody talks about bootlegs, but this is a different deal.

These are bootleg footballs. When I first saw that, I was picturing a football full of illegal bathtub gin back in the prohibition days, but after I read it, I was straightened out right away. Sorry, the way my mind works, but why don't you explain to us the story of bootleg footballs? Yeah, well, so just following up on your comment, so the bootleg initially, the first bootleg was Pop Warner at Stanford.

He had a fake, so he basically ran a fake Statue of Liberty and the fullback because he was running a double wing at the time with a fullback getting a direct snap. He faked the Statue of Liberty to the wing coming around from right to left, and then the fullback ran to the right, and everybody went with the, you know, chased the right wing who was running to the left, and he just, the fullback ran into the end zone. So, that's where the original bootleg came from, and it had, you know, the name came from bootleg gin, bootleg rum, you know, so it was prohibition time, and you know, so that's where the name originates.

So, it's the idea of fake and illegal and inappropriate, and so during the same era, one of the things that was happening to teams were, you know, some teams were choosing to pass more often than others, and so some of the, you know, back then there were lots of different companies manufacturing footballs, and so some of those manufacturers began making balls that were, you know, the ball had changed, I think it was 1912, maybe I'm off on that, but, you know, somewhere in that area, the ball had been slimmed down from the big fat rugby ball. So, it had been slimmed down, but it was still bigger than what we're used to today, so it's remained difficult to throw. Typically, only guys with big hands could really throw it effectively, and so they, some of the manufacturers, started producing slimmer balls, slimmer footballs that didn't really meet the game specifications, because the game, you know, by then they had specified it's got to be, you know, you know, there was tolerance, but it had to be this much around this length, and so they started producing these balls, and obviously, if you were a running team, you looked at the slim balls of the, what is this doing here on the field, because I don't need it, you know, my team is going to run the ball, we're not going to go crazy and pass it 12 times a game like some of these passing teams.

So, you know, they, you know, it became a controversy, and so, you know, it kind of went back and forth for a while, and then eventually the, you know, the things, they changed the rules basically in 1934 to make, to change the regulations on the ball specifications, so the ball would be about an inch thinner around the girth, but, you know, so one of the things that, you know, sometimes it doesn't seem to make as big a difference, but, you know, you know, you have to realize that the ball in the night before the mid-1920s was not only a bigger, fatter ball, but it's kind of a different ball too, and by that I mean that at that, until the mid-20s, when they, when somebody invented the internal valves, if the ball deflated, and they did so regularly, because they just didn't have the quality control on these rubber bladders that were inside the ball, when the ball deflated, you had to unlace the ball, pull the bladder out, inflate it, much like you would a balloon, I mean, there was like a nipple kind of thing sticking off from the bladder, and you inflated that, and then you tied it off to keep the air inside the bladder, and then you stuffed it back inside the ball, and then you took this leather lacing that was comparable to the lacing, you know, any baseball glove today, you know, it's a flexible lacing, and you weave it in and out with the different fingers, and you know, the, but you know, so that's basically what the lacing was on a football back then, you know, now it's this really hard, it's polyvinyl chloride, this hard plastic, it's stuff we make plumbing pipes out of, you know, that's a stiff material, and so, but back then, it was the same laces that were on a foot, you know, in a baseball glove, right, and so it was fairly flexible, and it could only be as tight, the lacing on a football was only as tight as the guy who tied it together when they reinflated it, so, you know, quality control and standardization just weren't part of that picture, you know, at the time, so it's just one of those things where, you know, we kind of, it's easy to lose sight of the difference at the time, but so, you know, the ability for a quarterback to throw that, you know, to throw a spiral and flick their wrist, you know, and, you know, flick it over to get a nice tight spiral, it was just much harder to do, because these laces barely stuck up over the leather on the surface of the ball, right, and so once they, once it had the internal valve, and that became, you know, the late, the second half of the 20s was kind of a transition period where some balls had it and some didn't, but when they, you know, if you think about a football now in lacing, they, there's the laces that go, I'll call them, you know, perpendicular to the length of the ball, right, but then there's two laces that are underneath those perpendicular laces that kind of go back and forth, right, does that make sense? I don't know if you can picture that, but so under, so putting the lacing underneath the perpendicular laces raised the profile above the surface of the ball, and because they no longer had to replace the ball, they could make that lacing stiffer, even before they used plastics, they could make the lacing stiffer, and therefore, it was easier for the quarterback to grip the ball, to throw a spiral, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, so anyways, I mean, it's one of these things where there's a lot of parts of football blocking, you know, what we call blocking now was interference originally, that was illegal, and then guys started doing it, and they didn't call it, so then it became part of the game. The bootleg footballs, people started using them, they were illegal, but they kind of let it go, and then eventually, they changed the rules to reflect that, right, so there's a lot of parts of football where people did stuff that was against the rules or against the sportsmanship standards of the time, and eventually, people kind of said, oh, yeah, let's just let that go, and it became part of the rules, so bootleg footballs are the reason people throw long, tight spirals 60, 70 yards downfield nowadays. Hey, that, you know, fascinating stuff, your story of you telling us, you know, with the vulcanized rubber bladders, you know, pulling those out and blowing them up, it took me back to some things I read, I believe, from the rugby days, where they still used an actual pig's bladder, and the poor soul that had to unlace it and blow up that rotting pig's bladder, put their lips on that and blow up the ball, that poor sucker had to be the worst job you could have, I think, on a football field.

Well, and, you know, I mean, talk about the pig's bladder, but the, you know, a lot of people think that the reason football is played in the fall is because, you know, people had piglets that they raised all summer, you know, spring and all summer long, and then they slaughtered them in the fall, and what comes along with slaughtering a pig? Well, you have pig's bladders available all of a celebration. They have this kicking game where you try to kick this pig's bladder from your town into the next, or your village into the next, and that's where this football kicking game originated. And eventually, people started covering that pig's bladder with a leather cover to make it, you know, more sustainable or, you know, just to last longer.

But, you know, that's the origins of the game, right? So, it's kind of crazy, you know, kind of how it's all evolved. It's like every other technology; things become more uniform and consistent. But, yeah, that's where the game starts.

A lesson within the lesson. That's good stuff. And I'm sealing up my envelope right now from these advertisements for Goldsmith that you have on your website on this post to get my $10 football.

So, the F5 and the X5. So, I'm going to get one of each for ten bucks. Well, hey, you know, one of the images, so, I mean, for those who are just listening and haven't seen the post, this would be a fun one to go look at, just because there's a number of images from period catalogs that show footballs.

And there's one from D&M, which was a big manufacturer supplier at the time. They had a football they called the Slim Jim. And it was slimmer than the standard ball.

And they're advertising. It's right there in their catalog. There's no secret about it.

But it was slimmer than the specifications required it to be. Well, now you're making me hungry for a meat product that comes in plastic now. So, talk about Slim Jim.

Check-in with Nancy Pelosi. I think she's got some. She was eating some, well, you know, long story.

Hey, Tim, this has been another great lesson in helping us to understand the game of football, where it came from some of the intricacies and equipment, and just the history of the game and how the folks before us had to play with less than what we see today on TV and what the players play on a high school level even. We really appreciate you digging up this research and sharing it with us each week and evening. You can read it on your phone or computer.

Tim has a great way of delivering that message. And, Tim, why don't you share the information with us right now? Sure. So, footballarchaeology.com. You can just go out there and click on any link, and all of them are going to provide an opportunity to subscribe.

So, if you want to subscribe, it just guarantees that you get it every day. You don't have to read it every day. You can save them up and read them on the weekend, whatever.

But it'll be delivered to your inbox at 7 o'clock Eastern every night. And then alternatively, you can follow me on Twitter at Football Archaeology. And if you don't like either of those options, just go out and check out Football Archaeology anytime you want.

And you can see the most recent article just listed out there in order of how they were posted. All right. Tim Brown, footballarchaeology.com. Thank you, once again, for sharing these stories and this information.

And we'll talk to you again next week. Very good. Look forward to it, Darin.

Thank you.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.

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Football officials get a bad rap. Okay I am not saying they are without error, nobody is perfect, but the zebras get ill feelings thrown their way even when they are correct in their calls.

One of the top experts in early football rules history Timothy P. Brown joins us on the discussion to identify some of the stories of the communication regulation of some pioneering football officials. Timothy Brown's FootballArchaeology.com has a daily football factoid that he shares that are really quite interesting in a short read. They preserve football history in a very unique way and we are quite happy that Tim has agreed to join us each week to go over some of his Today's Tidbits.

A recent Tidbit that Tim had titled Herb Dana and the Associated Football Question Box, is our subject today.

-Transcribed Conversation on Officiating Signals of Herb Dana with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal for positive football history. It's Tuesday and we are going to join our friend Timothy Brown, the great historian and author that digs into the archaeology of football each and every day, but shares a little tidbit with us each week.

And today, Tim's got a great topic. Tim Brown, welcome back to the Pig Pen.

Hey, Darin. Thank you very much. Looking forward to chatting once again and seeing where the conversation goes. Yeah.

You know how I'm a former official, so I've got the zebra blood still flowing in me. It's been a few years, but I'm still in the brotherhood, I think. I don't think they kicked me out yet.

And you have some great history on the officiating of the game. And we talked a few weeks ago about it, but you have some more insight and some more gentlemen that are responsible for some of the things that officials do. So, I was hoping you could talk about that today.

Yeah. So a couple of weeks ago, I wrote an article about a guy named Herb Dana, and it was called Herb Dana and the Associated Football Question Box, which is a mouthful of kind of a word salad. So Herb Dana was a guy who played in the end at Nebraska.

He was on their 1921 team. That was his senior season. And then moved to Denver and started officiating there, doing some kind of the Rocky Mountain sorts of games.

Then he moved to San Francisco and very quickly rose up the ranks and became one of the top officials in the Pacific Coast Conference, what's now the PAC-8 or PAC-12 or PAC-10, whatever they are right now. And so part of the reason I raised him or one of the interesting things about his story is that he was not scheduled to officiate in the 1929 Rose Bowl, but the guy who was the scheduled referee, a guy named Frank Birch, we mentioned a couple of episodes ago, and he's the guy who invented the referee's penalty signals that we all know and love today. But a couple of weeks before the Rose Bowl, he tore his ligaments, so he couldn't officiate, so they brought in Herb Dana instead.

And so, you know, the 1929 Rose Bowl doesn't mean a lot to most people, but that is the game when a guy named Roy Regals, who was playing for California, picked up a Georgia Tech fumble and got turned around and ran the wrong way. And then his teammates stopped him in the corner of the field at the one-yard line. And so, and they basically tackled it, stopped him before he went into the end zone and, you know, for safety.

But so the referee then who actually marked the ball in that particular case was this guy, Herb Dana. So that was, you know, he was in on, you know, one of the most important plays or most famous plays in the history of football. So I just, you know, thought that was kind of cool.

But, you know, Dana, the other thing about him is that it was a big part of football back in the, you know, turn of the century through to maybe World War II. Officials often, so a lot of the officials were former players. And many of them were also like sports writers.

And even if they weren't sports writers, a lot of times they would, they'd write columns for the newspapers. And, you know, they became basically media personalities. So there was a guy, George Varnell, who some people called the Walter Camp of the West.

You know, he was a sports writer in Seattle and out there in Pullman prior to that. But he was, you know, I think he officiated more Rose Bowls than anybody else. So he's a big-time referee on the West Coast, he was on the football rules committee, but he was a sports writer, you know, and here he'd be writing all kinds of, you know, he'd be making predictions about upcoming games, including the ones he was going to referee.

He'd name all-conference teams, all kinds of things like that. That gets a little hairy to do that. Well, but, you know, it happened all the time.

You know, another guy, Walter Eckersall, was an All-American halfback at Chicago and became a sports writer for the Chicago Tribune. And he'd travel with the team, you know, he'd travel with the team that was going to play. He traveled with the Great Lakes, you know, team, you know, from 1918 to 1919.

But, you know, again, the same kind of thing. He profiled these teams, made predictions, and all kinds of things. And like he would, he'd referee the game, and then write a column about it, you know, and then editorialize about it, you know, over the next couple of days.

And that's just, you know, it's a conflict of interest that they didn't view as a conflict of interest. But, you know, for us nowadays, I mean, there's no way, you know, you can allow that to happen. So Dana was that same kind of guy on the West Coast.

And one of the things that's included in that particular blog post is, you know, some time back, I bought a postcard. And it was this pre-printed card that gave, you'd go, and you'd pick it up at a local gas station, and it was particular, you know, the Flying A brand of gas. And you'd then take that postcard, you'd write a football question, especially a football rules question, and you'd mail it to Dana.

And he would answer that either in the newspaper column or he also hosted a 90-minute radio show at the time that was then syndicated across, you know, you know, the West Coast and the Rockies. So this, you know, again, this is a guy, he was as big a media personality as most coaches, you know, everybody knew who Herb Dana was. So it's just that, you know, it's a different time.

And he, you know, here he's answering these questions, he's predicting who's going to win the big game this coming weekend. And then he, you know, not too long after all that was happening, he became the head of officials for the Pacific Coast Conference. And he was still doing those radio shows at the time.

So just, you know, just a very different time and place. We can't imagine it today. Yeah, I can see, you know, and I think he's done it, you know, Mike Pereira has done. That's probably the face of officials that we get used to nowadays. And he's got a great way of explaining the rules and everything.

But I don't know if I'd ever hear Mike Pereira saying, hey, I'm officiating a game today. And I think, you know, Stanford's going to win by three, you know, that's, I just can't, that blows my mind. But okay.

The other thing is the same thing happened with coaches. So John Heisman was a big, you know, very, very smart guy. And he wrote all kinds of columns.

And some of it was just, you know, things where he diagrams plays and da da da. But you know, he offered his opinion on lots of different things. Any number, you know, there are a lot of coaches. They would write a series of 20 different articles, just quick little things, diagram plays, and talk about some techniques.

And those would be published, you know, syndicated newspapers across the country, you know, for a season. So, a lot of coaches did that. Rockne did that.

And Rockne used to predict, you know, he'd talk about who the better team was, teams he never saw because they didn't have television at the time. Now, some of them, obviously, he had seen, and he'd compare them. He saw somebody playing week two and another playing week eight, and he'd offer his opinion on who was going to win the game, you know.

But so, you know, coaches did all that kind of stuff, too. Zupke at Illinois was another one that published a lot of articles. And so... Well, even Walter Kemp, you know, wrote for Colliers quite a bit back in the day.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kemp, you know, Kemp's authority came as much from his writing as anything else. Well, obviously, you know, his role is in the rules-making, you know, organizations. But, you know, he was, you know, if you think about it, he was like, you know, Vince Lombardi and Paul Zimmerman and a couple of other guys all rolled into one because he was a successful coach.

He was a big time official. He was, you know, the top writer, you know, prior to like Grantland Rice and those kinds of guys coming along. So, you know, it was their writing was a really big time way of their gaining influence.

Then, it transitioned to radio. And now we have, you know, guys, former coaches or somebody who's knocked out of the playoffs, they come and commentate, you know, during halftime of particular games or before the game. So same kind of thing going on.

But at least now we wait until they're out of the... Now we wait till their team's no longer playing before we let them start talking. Right. Well, fascinating stuff.

And we appreciate you coming on here and sharing that football history with us each week. And why don't you let everybody know once again where they can read your stuff and find you each day? Yeah. So footballarchaeology.com, that's my website.

There's a daily Today's Tidbit that comes out typically very quickly, hitting 30-second 40-second reads with the picture, too. A couple of times a month, I'll also be posting additional long-form information. So, the best thing to do is just subscribe to that.

And you'll get an email every day about typically about seven o'clock in the Eastern time zone in the evening. You can also follow me on Twitter at footballarchaeology.com. And that's, you know, that's my name there as well. Well, I can tell you or my wife can tell you, it's exactly at seven o'clock Eastern each day because we'll be sitting on a couch watching television or something, and she'll hear the ding go off on my phone.

And she goes, what's that? And I said that's Tim getting my tidbit for the day. Yeah. Sometimes, there are a few occasions where I've got something going at seven o'clock.

So, I sent it out earlier, or I just made a mistake, and I didn't schedule it correctly. You mess up my entire evening that way. I don't know what time it is.

I set my clock by you. Once again, thank you very much, Tim. And we'll talk to you again next week.

Okay. Darin, thank you very much. Look forward to it.

Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.