You can order a copy of Chris Willis' The NFL's 60 Minute Men book at the Publisher McFarland.com website or on Amazon The NFL's 60-Minute Men.

Chris Willis 60 Minute Men Interview Transcript

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another edition where we get to talk to an author about a great book on pro football history. And this is going back all the way to the beginning of the NFL and talking about some of these great early players. We have Chris Willis of NFL Films joining us, who's been on more than a few times to talk about some of his books. He's putting out a book quite a bit, and we're really enjoying him. Chris, welcome back to the Pigpen.

Chris Willis
It's awesome to be here, Darin, especially to be able to talk about these early players. So, thanks for having me.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, certainly. Now, the title of Chris's latest book is The NFL's 60 Minutemen: All-time Greats of the Two-way Player Era 1920 to 1945. Chris, that's a big topic. And these are some guys that maybe our modern ears aren't used to hearing their names. Maybe we've heard one or two of them because there are some big names in there. But there are many guys in there that most folks have not heard. What was your inspiration for writing a book like this?

Chris Willis
Uh, that's a good question. Um, I think the first sort of momentum was in 2019 when the NFL celebrated its 100th season, you know, they had the all-time team, which I was a part of the, of the voting. Uh, and then I did some rankings for the pPro Football Journal John Turney's site. And so I had some feeling of who, you know, who some of the best players were, the most significant players. Um, but I felt all the time that they don't get as much recognition as, you know, some of them sort of modern players. I mean, um, even, even if you're a casual fan, you might know who Joe's name is, Jim Brown, you know, uh, you know, let alone the paintings and the Tom Brady's like, there is a certain generation that you still might know. And then really the early years, it might be just, you know, Jim Thorpe and Red Grange, and that's it like, well, now anyway, here's 25 years of history, especially the first, you know, two and a half decades of great play by many more players than, uh, just a handful of names that some people know. So, uh, so I think when you combine, you know, that a couple of years ago, you know, with trying to promote and trying to get these players names, maybe out there a little bit more, that's what was the inspiration of, of putting the book together.

Darin Hayes
And it's a great timeline that you choose, you know, ending at 1945, which, you know, we've talked about with other guests, and I believe a premium talk with you about it before because it's sort of that World War Two era sort of broke that the single platoon system because there was a lot more talent out there. There was, you know, some they're having some trouble having some guys play, you know, having players during the war and everything. So I changed into that. What we know today is that we have specialists, offense, defense, and special teams. And of a single platoon. That's why the title, I assume, is 60 Minute Men.

Chris Willis
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's like the first 25 years in the NFL, you know, from 20 to 45. And that was a real key point for me, you know, was, I wanted to evaluate these players, who, they knew all the players played both ways, they played 60 minutes, you know, so some of the first questions I get when I say, Oh, this is the book title, and they think, Oh, so Chuck Bennerik, well, Chuck Bennerik, although it's a great feat, was the last to go 60 minutes, you know, but he did not play against players, you know, consistently going 60 minutes, you know, so, so some of those players that were sort of near the war years, or at the end of the World War Two, you know, I just cut it off there, just to say, Okay, I know all these players all went 60 minutes, you know, they played offense, defense, special teams. And so that's where that sort of 25-year era, you know, to me, is the two-way era in the NFL.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, sort of the layout of the book; I mean, you have it really interesting. You talk about, you know, you rank the players and you have a top 45 where you go into some great detail on tell some stories. You have a lot of excerpts of players that were contemporary that played against and with some of these guys that really had some great insight to them, so you can't get much better than that. And then you have a list that takes it up to 100 after that, like the 46 through 100. So why don't you maybe tell us how you determined the ranking and who to put on the list?

Chris Willis
Yeah, so the first goal I said came out was, well, what year am I starting with? What year am I ending with? So we found that 1929 to 45. So I was a first. And then it was, you know, roughly eight, I think it was like eight or nine, you know, sort of criteria is that, that I would look into, they all played a part, none of them was weighed higher than any other. So it was, you know, all-time teams. And it was a big thing, you know, where I was trying to find as many all-time teams from players and coaches and executives and sports from that era, you know, so because then that tells me who they thought was the best. And you take that into consideration, like, you know, you know, did the coach coach him or did the player play, you know, a lot, a lot of guys are going to pick their teammates and buddies. But when you start seeing names of opponents, you know, that gave you a little bit more sense of who people might have thought was great. So you had oral histories, you had win and loss records, you had championships, you know, other honors, you know, whether it's all pro teams, whether they were on, you know, a ring of honor or teams Hall of Fame, you know, so all those criteria were meshed into one evaluation, you know, so and I sort of went through that and to say, Okay, you know, who has the best resumes, you know, and then I started ranking them that way, you know, so it wasn't just like, Oh, you know, you had to be in the Hall of Fame. No, I believe I have almost a dozen players who aren't in the Hall of Fame in that 45. And then some of, you know, like, if I say, Oh, who's number 100? Well, Jim Thorpe is number 100. And you people might say, well, you're crazy, Chris. Well, you know, Thorpe's best years were before the NFL was founded. 1920 was really his only productive year, and you can maybe say 21 a little bit. But his ooh rang Indians years, and you know, the one game with the New York Giants and in the car, like, he was not an elite player at that time. Now, it was 1915. Yes, you know, and leading up. But so people might be surprised, well, Jim Thorpe 100. And who's in the top 50. So, but that was like the, you know, fun part of it, which is just, okay, let's evaluate everybody. Like I said, if I could have written 100 full bios, but then it would have been like, you know, six 700 pages, I don't know. Besides us, you know, who would maybe want to read a 700-page book about 100 of two-way players, but McFarland was great, the publisher, and you know, be able to do 45 full, you know, bios and to be able to talk, and I wanted it to be more not like a Wikipedia page. That's why I wanted to write a little bit of fuller bios. Because it's just one of like, oh, that's, I can get that off Wikipedia or pro football reference. Now I wanted it to be a little more detail. And oral histories and testimonials was a huge part of it. That was one of my first goals to try to find players talking about another player; you know, I can write what I think makes, you know, Red Grange grade or Mel Hine or Don Hudson. But I wanted to hear it from other players, coaches, executives, you know, owners, sports writers who, you know, okay, this is what made, you know, you know, Dutch Clark grade, this is what made, you know, Patty Driscoll grade. And it came from them instead of me just reverberating, maybe what I think, or what's in Wikipedia, Wikipedia or your profile bar reference, you know, because I think it could be misleading stats, some of the scoring, like you had to dig deep in it, you know, and say, okay, I think one perfect example was 1929 with Ernie Nevers. And Ernie Nevers is great. You know, he's up there, pretty high. And, but his 29 years included the game where he scored six touchdowns, he scored 40 points, and you're like, oh, wow, you know, the guy scored 12 touchdowns. Well, the majority of those touchdowns came against the three worst teams in the NFL, you know, you know, the six against the Bears, then there was like three against Dayton, three against Brooklyn, you know, so like, nine of his 12 came against like some of the worst teams, where the other the better teams sort of shut him out. So you got to take it, you know, like I said, you got to, you know, dig a little deep to maybe find, okay, what actually happened where now, we can watch it, we go online, you got tons of stats, you know, and all the time, and you can know that, okay, this guy has had a great year, you know, so, so that did make the fun part of it.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. I mean, I'm, I've loved some, some of the comments that you said on the players, uh, the contemporaries that were playing against them, some of the best ones were the linemen, linemen against linemen, and just some of, you know, Hey, this was the toughest son of a gun I had to go up against in my years of football. And just, you know, just some of the comments like that, that, you know, using some of the, the, the chat of the day. Cause I assume these are probably like some of these interviews are probably like in the fifties and sixties when these guys were, you know, out of football, but, uh, you know, still seasoned and, uh, you know, talk, still talking and reminiscing. So I thought that was, that was great, but I, I love the consistency of your format on those first 45. And maybe you could explain to the listeners and viewers about that, what they can enjoy when they get a copy of the book.

Chris Willis
Yeah, like I mentioned, you know, you're following your criteria, so you want to touch on all that. And I mentioned before, like, oral histories and testimonials were a big key of finding, you know, like I said, as much as they're great players, sometimes I found, you know, some player who played for like two years, three years, you know, which was the norm, you know, average playing was three years, who did talk about, you know, some of these other guys, you know, or some of they only play three years, well, they might have played, you know, four games against, you know, you know, some of these great players, and they can give you a testimonial. Yeah, he was, he was that good. So, and footage is another thing, you know, like, I try to find as much game footage and game film. And because that's, like you said, the linemen, it was a running game, it was a lineman game, you know, you know, so you wanted to see a little bit more of some of those guys that are just popping up on all pro teams, or you just assume is in the Hall of Fame, like, oh, you know, and the perfect example is, I mean, his name's been bounced around. It's Ox Emerson, like, there's, you know, there's a little bit of footage of him, you watch him, well, he was really good, you know, and, and that's why he made all those all pros. And, and you look at him, he's like, well, why isn't he in the Hall of Fame? You know, because he's, he's got all the check marks on his resume, you know, whether it's, you know, played for a championship team, you know, they finished high and rushing for four or five straight years, you know, you know, that Dutch Clark and good personnel, and all these backs that made all pro, well, somebody had to block for him, you know, so, so he gets lost a little bit. But when you look at these things, and you look at the, especially the linemen versus linemen, like, well, there's a reason why, you know, Bronco Nagurski had him on his all-time team, Red Grange had him on, it was like, he must be a little better than that, if, if Red and Bronco are saying, you know, if I had to field a team, I'm going to take Ox Amherst as one of my guards. So, so that's part of, you know, the explanation, you know, the chapters and the, like I said, the bios being flashed. And then, you know, there's, there's some good stories, you know, some of them have been heard if you but some of them haven't been so I tried to find, you know, some stuff that also made it, you know, enjoyable to read and then like, okay, well, I didn't, that's a great story of the 20s and 30s and playing 60 minutes, you know, so that was that's the title of the book. So I wanted to get that impression of these guys playing both ways. Some of them said, Oh, I love playing offense better than defense. Some of them just said, Oh, I just love the hit. So, you know, stuff like that. So it was enjoyable to try to find that type of research.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, the consistency of each of those first 45, you sort of have the reader, you know, me as a reader, you sort of have me dip my toes in the water a little bit, have those basic bios, you know, the name, rank and serial number, where they played, went to college, things like that, basic bios that you would see on some of the reference pages like you talked about. But then you take us down, and you get into the text, and we're the story and the, you know, the testimonials about that player and everything. So I thought it was well done and consistent. And it was great to, you know, it was sort of, there's stories to it, but it's a reference book, in some ways too, or you could throw on your coffee table and somebody comes to visit and they have 10 minutes to kill, they can, you know, knock out one of these legends and read it or, you know, a dentist office or something like that. You know, it's great for that too, or to sit down and have a long read. So I think that was kind of incredible. And you have a book like that, that you can go both ways like that. So well, well done on that. Now, now, okay, you talked, you led to a little bit, you had, you know, about a dozen non-Hall of Famers on that list, which I thought was fantastic because there's, you know, it's very well publicized that, you know, folks want to see some more seniors getting into the pro football Hall of Fame. And maybe this is some avenues, you know, by, by folks like you, telling about some of these guys and letting us know about these legends. So maybe if you could talk maybe about a couple of these guys that are not in the Hall of Fame, I know you've already mentioned one or two.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I mean, and I didn't plan it that way. Like I said, once you start reading and doing the research, you're like, okay, because there were some impressions. Okay, I like him, but is he going to make the list? And then I'm like, Oh, you know what, you know, maybe he makes a not only does he make the list, he's up pretty high, you know. So Ox Emerson is one of the I think the ones that I really enjoy when I do the research is Bern Llewellyn, the Packers half back, you know, who was pretty much the go-to guy for the Packers teams that won three straight championships 29, 30, and 31. I mean, here's a guy that the team won three straight, you know, only Lombardi's Packers have won three straight NFL championships. And he's not in the whole thing. You know, I went back, and I did some retro MVPs that are in the front of the book, which is my research as you go through, and I picked who would be in the top five MVP, and Llewellyn would have won back-to-back, and 29 and 30. So, to me, he's like a no-brainer. You know, I've always liked his resume, and you know, like I said, he's very high on this list. You know, I won't reveal where he's at, but he is very high. And he's a head of a lot, a lot of Hall of Famers that are already, you know, like I said, have been elected, and he's not, you know, it's an Emerson's, you know, up there pretty good. And, and then you, yeah, then you get to some guys that you hopefully, you know, as I said, we talked about Lineman's earlier, like, you know, Joe copcha of the Bears, another guard of George Christensen, that lions are another lions alignment during that time when they won a championship and a tackle. And so those guys are tougher to, to evaluate because you don't have and like I said, some of the testimonials, you know, I mean, there's nobody living that can really push, you know, some candidacy, candidacy. And so, but it was very interesting, you know, like I said, you know, and then, as you mentioned before, I have 46 to 100. And there's Hall of Famers on there, you know, I list them and I make sure, hey, these are Hall of Famers. And so you can take it, you can take a look and say, okay, the guys that are ranked in the top 45, you know, maybe, maybe they need to be looked at a little bit harder. Or, you know, like I said, investigate a little bit more, based on, you know, because I find it hard to believe that the NFL or at least a probable Hall of Fame in the selection committee, like they're done with anybody who played almost like since 1950, you know, like, there's so everybody that was great, that's that is now in the Hall of Fame, you know, who played the first, you know, 40 years of the league, like, that, that would be a surprise to say that they're all in there, let's move on to this, the more modern era, you know, so, so hopefully, like I said, these chapters can bring some of these players to life and give them that, maybe proper attention.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Well, before I ask it my next question, why don't we give the opportunity here to tell folks again, the name of the book and where they can get a copy of it at? Yeah, it's.

Chris Willis
60 Minute Men was published by McFarland just this past March, and you could pick it up on Amazon or Barnes& Noble's website. You can also go to McFarland and Company. They play some football, but they play a lot of baseball. You know, if you're a sports fan or historian, you might know of McFarland because they do a lot of unique titles. So yeah so 60 Minute Men in the era of the two-way play era from 1920 -1945.

Darin Hayes
Alright, great. Now, folks, I highly recommend it to it's a great read. Now, well, Chris, when you're doing the research, okay, I'm sure, you know, as a writer, I know that sometimes we have some preconceptions, we're gonna write a story, but then you get into the research, and the story sort of takes you a different course maybe than you really thought it was going to go. And I'm sure you probably had some surprises with some of these players. Who is somebody that pleasantly surprised you? That was maybe somebody you knew a little bit about, but you didn't realize how good they were till you got into the research.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I've mentioned Llewellyn. He's one that, you know, over the years, like, as I do more research, I've been impressed with, you know, how good he was and how great he was. So, you know, I think the, maybe the other guy that comes to mind is a couple of quarterbacks that might get overlooked a little bit, because they're the way they perform is a little different function than now is red done, the old pack, you know, play for the Cardinals and Packers, and Ed Denowski, you know, the old Giants quarterback. So, I think I didn't; once I started digging a little bit more, I was more impressed by what they did, and especially their leadership. You know, Dunn was a pretty efficient passer and Lambo system. In those early years, you know, he did a little better than I thought. And Ed Danowski, I think was underrated. I think Danowski, when I more I looked at, especially in the passing game was, was highly efficient, you know, led the league, I believe, a couple of times in, in passing percentage and, you know, was a member of Giants championship teams, especially the sneaker game, you know, played very well in that game and the upset against the Bears. So, those are two names, I think, besides Llewelyn, I think, that sort of jump out a little bit more and were a little more impressive than I thought.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, that Danosky; I'm glad you mentioned him because he's probably one that really jumped out for me. You know, I knew of him, but I'm sorry, good boy. What's interesting is Danosky where you have him. And I started reading. I'm like, well, you know what, you make a pretty good case for him. And he's maybe a lot better than what I realized he was. So I learned a lot about him. So I appreciate you have him having him in there. So, okay, sort of maybe on the flip side, who is somebody, maybe you had to go in some high expectations saying, oh, this guy's going to be way up on the list. And maybe, you know, not because of his play, but because some of the plays, some of these other fellows that, you know, advanced beyond him on the list, who maybe some of those things.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I think, yeah, there was a couple of guys where I'm thinking, maybe, you know, I mean, George house is one, I think, people automate, but he wore like ten different hats. So, besides being a player, he did actually play, and he was solid; I wouldn't say he was spectacular. And obviously, he's in the Hall of Fame for, you know, the variety of things he did for the league, you know, and his impact, you know, so, so sometimes you see him, he's like, Oh, you know, I mean, I mentioned Thorpe being at 100. But how should I go? Should he have been higher or lower than the other couple guys, you know, that sort of came in that mid-30-year, you know, that I thought would be, you know, a little bit higher Joe Guyon, because he plays his professional career in the 20s, you know, so he's in the Hall of Fame, he was in, like the third or fourth class, you know, but maybe not quite as dominant, you know, as some of the ones in the top, you know, 45, you know, so, so there's a couple of players like that. I think the other one, they were not as it's Joe Stade higher, he, you know, when you look at him, like, you know, I mean, Alice praises him a lot, but that was one of his guys, you know, he did have some all pro teams. But maybe not just like that, in my opinion, but there were some examples like that, where, you know, you thought you might have them higher, but you know, didn't quite make it.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I think, and I don't disagree with you on it. You know, after reading what you had about these players ahead of them, I thought like, you know, George Wildcat was Wilson, somebody that famous, maybe more famous because, you know, his college play and playing out, you know, in the original AFL and, you know, the Wildcats and everything. But, you know, some of the other backs are ahead of him. But I don't disagree with you after I read it. And I'm thinking, OK, you know, he's probably right. You know, it's just maybe the name makes me think higher of them because, you know, it's been pounded into you for four years. But maybe some of those other guys, too, are the same way that you mentioned. So, you know, so great, great job. And I, you know, I can't argue with the rankings, and it's it's fun because they're debatable, and we're not going to debate with you on it. But it's one of those things that makes it interesting. That's what makes good reading, and people buy the book, too. So that's that's always a good thing, too. So we'll save that for people in forums, comments, and other stuff like that. They can do that. Sure.

Chris Willis
And that's part of it. If people discuss it, that's fine. It means they're reading the book and they're putting some energy in it. And if they want to say, hey, why is this guy high on his list and not high? So that's fine. That gives a good discussion. That's always productive.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Now, did you have, did you go back and look at any ratio of, uh, were there more quarterbacks and other players? I mean, I didn't really go into the tally, but I just sit here thinking about her. Was there, is there one position that was more predominant to make this to 45?

Chris Willis
Uh, I mean, I don't think there was one of four dominant. I mean, I think it played out, um, the way it did, um, with the importance of the positions, you know, I, I, you know, uh, like there wasn't quite as many centers, obviously, because there's only one on a team and they start, you know, where you have two guards too. So I think if you look at the breakdown, they're kind of consistent with what the positions were or the importance of each position, you know, so, um, you know. Obviously, the guys who touched the ball are going to, you know, are going to be somewhat, but I, I didn't want just to go off that, you know, so that's why there is a decent amount of guards and tackles on, on the team. Um, so, uh, so I, I always thought that it was, it was a good breakdown. I just didn't overload it and like, Oh, wait, I only got like two guards and three tackles. Like, no, it didn't come to that. I think, you know, if I did, you know, my proper research, I thought it came out that way, you know, you look at it, and you're like, okay, you know, there's some, some, some guards and some tack because they were just as prominent as the backs, even though the backs probably got more of the headlines, you know, um, you know, I mean, the Cal Hobbs and the, the Turk Edwards and them of the world, you know, the Mike Mitchell, they're up there and they're up there pretty high. And you're like, okay, you know, because that's why, you know, a lot of people that are saying how great they were, you know, um, so that's, you know, I thought it came out, but there wasn't one like, Oh, uh, you know, it was all, it was going to be a bunch of quarterbacks, and you know, that wasn't going to be the case.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I got the feeling of it, you know, reading it. You know if I was gonna put it, you know, these guys played both ways. So they played offense and defense, but if you're gonna put it in a modern term of, you know, the rooms, you know, I think there was probably just as many interior linemen as there were ends as there were You know backs as there were quarterback So I think you broke it very well and evenly and distributed them around it wasn't you know The the top 10 weren't quarterbacks and then half backs I loved how the placement of these guys and probably fairly so and even some teammates You know going on and I loved how you sort of interconnected some of those you had You know when you had like Fats Henry and Link Lyman in there You know no pun intended, but there's sent sort of link together, and you know to be in those bookends for the Canton teams, and you know They play together over on Potsville too. I can't remember if they did or not, But I know I know FASTA. they're just some interesting things that you did that connected the stories, Even though they were separate stories. So that was enjoyable, too.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I mean, as many teams that came in and out of the league, especially in the 20s, a lot of the greatness was on certain, obviously, teams and franchises, you know, the Bears, Packers, Giants have a lot of, but then you'd have like, like we mentioned Ernie Nevers, well, he played for, you know, Duluth and then the Cardinals, you know, some guys, you know, might have only played, you know, for, you know, and Sean played for a lot of years with Staten Island before we went to the Giants. So, you know, yes, the, you know, the, the main teams that survived and the teams that won championship obviously are well representative. And there's a lot of links, as you mentioned, a lot of links between those teams and, you know, you know, guys like Cal Harper to play for the Giants and the Packers, and he won championship both. So, you know, the, he's going to play with really good players too. So then they're representative in the list.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, most definitely. No, I guess, Chris, you have you have any last things to say, maybe the share with the listeners to encourage them to buy the book and we'll let you tell you where the book you can get the book again.

Chris Willis
Sure. Uh, yeah, no, I mean, I think if you, uh, if you love early pro football, you know, this is a book that you'll be interested in, you know, like I said, the chapters flow pretty easy. You can, like, like you mentioned, stop, put it down. If you want to, you know, read just one chapter a night, then, you know, you can, uh, you can do it pretty easy. And, and, you know, these chapters kind of sit by themselves, so to speak. And, uh, and then the other thing for me is, uh, I mean, you know, the internet and social media is huge on who they think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. And a lot of it is modern guys, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I would hate for this era of players and even talking into the fifties and even early sixties, I hate for some of these players to get lost just because, you know, nobody's around to talk about them, you know, or when they're not living, uh, or there's just something coming, you know, you can't watch footage on YouTube or whatever, like, you know, these players are still great, you know, they can be, it shouldn't be ignored. So I think between some of that, you know, the book has, you know, can give a reader, you know, a very, you know, fun read as well as educational. I'm just like, you know, this is a good source.

Cause like I said, it's not just reading the Wikipedia page or just reading a stat page, you know, puts it in a lot of context of the era, you know, who, what players thought who was great, you know, how they became great. I mean, I love some of the Don Hudson, you know, stuff about, you know, how he made himself just a great receiver, whether, you know, practice, he would catch though, you know, when I read that, or when I did the research and read the Hudson, it just almost looks like it's a Jerry Rice story. Like, you know, that he did in the eighties and nineties. Well, that's, you know, Hudson did it in the thirties and early, you know, or forties, you know, like the way he practiced, the way he played, you know, the way he worked, you know, shoulder pads that weren't all that, but you know, like, you know, to give him more speed and things like that. Like, you know, he was a legit athlete and played some solid defense too. And then eventually, he played some thought into it when he, you know, found the correct position. So, if you go, yeah, so if you go on the McFarland website, publishers, the book will be there, and then you can also get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, folks, I highly recommend it. And if you want to know who that top spot is, the best way to do it is to get that book and, uh, enjoy it just like I did. And, uh, you know, Chris probably did it during his research, and people read it. So Chris, we really appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you preserving football history and writing that book. And, uh, thank you for your time to tell us about it.

Chris Willis
Thanks for having me again, Darin. It's always a pleasure to talk about early football history. So thanks for having me.