Joe Zagorski on the NFL Great Number 32s with Darin Hayes of Pigskin Dispatch Transcribed
Welcome to a bonus edition of the Pigskin Daily History Dispatch podcast as we have our football by number series in today's edition. We are talking about the most significant number of 32s in NFL history. One hundred one years of NFL history to talk about and to join us today because this is a big task with the 32s.
We have a lot of stars. We have the famous historian and author Joe Zagorski. You probably heard him on the Sports History Network.
He has his own podcast, Pigskin Past. He's also the author of multiple books, in particular, the NFL in the 1970s. And that's sort of his forte is that NFL in the 1970s.
I know many of us, like myself, who grew up in the 70s. It's exciting to hear somebody talk about some of these stars you grew up watching when you were a kid. And Joe is the expert on that.
And we have plenty of those folks today. So why don't we bring them in? Joe Zagorski, welcome to the Pigpen. Hey, Darren, thanks a lot for having me.
I think this is the first time I've been on the show. You know, you mentioned 32s in the 1970s in the NFL. There were quite a lot of really historic 32 players who wore the number 32 in the NFL in the 1970s.
My book about the 1970s in the NFL, if you haven't gotten it yet, you can get it on Amazon or Books a Million or Barnes and Noble websites. That's where you can get it. And it talks a lot about everything that happened from 70 through 79.
It's pretty comprehensive. And I think that once you read all 444 pages of it, if you have any questions about the 70s after that, you need to call me because I don't think you'll have any more questions after that. There's so much stuff in there, it's pretty thick.
But, you know, you mentioned the numbers 32 and in the 1970s. Well, even before that, there was no greater number 32 than Jim Brown, in my opinion. Definitely pretty much thought of as the greatest player of all time, at least until Jerry Rice came along or Tom Brady.
But for a number of decades, he was the greatest player of all time. But in the 70s, you had several other 32s that really grabbed headlines. Of course, O.J. Simpson and Franco Harris, you know, both of those two guys, along with Jim Brown, are in the Hall of Fame for good reason.
And O.J. Simpson in the 1970s, he was able to lead the league in rushing four out of five years. Now, try doing that today. It's really hard to do.
But he was able to do that in an era where, you know, the Buffalo Bills, the team that he played for during that time, didn't have much of a passing game. So he was able to really take a lot of hits and stay upright enough to gain the yards that he got. Of course, he was the first man to eclipse the 2,000-yard barrier in 1973.
And, of course, Franco Harris came on to the league in 72, and he was pretty much, you know, kind of like a view of the future. You saw a guy with the body of a Jim Brown, but, you know, you didn't think he was going to be able to run that well, you know. But he was able to gain over 1,000 yards, I think, in each of his first six or seven years.
I'm not sure, but he was a great runner. And, of course, he became famous, you know, with all the Pittsburgh Steelers' dynasty and four Super Bowl championships. One thing I noticed, though, is that there are some 32s that are kind of famous in my mind that played on defense.
Mike Curtis, of course, was a middle linebacker for the Colts and then later the Seahawks and the Redskins. And Jack Pardee, speaking of the Redskins, was a famous linebacker for them. Those two guys are pretty famous, and they're 32.
But for the most part, it's running backs, as you know. Emerson Boozer from the Jets and Walt Garrison from the Cowboys were 32. And, you know, of course, if you ask a Dallas Cowboys fan, they're going to remember Walt Garrison.
And maybe Jets fans might remember Emerson Boozer. But I think Cowboys fans will definitely remember Walt Garrison, because he did a lot of, you know, ads and commercials during that era as well. But there is one 32 that is either loved or hated.
And you can't have both ways with this guy. It's Jack Tatum of the Raiders. Raiders fans love him.
And I know Steelers fans hate him. And some other teams do, too. He's no longer with us.
But he was, for my money, the hardest-hitting safety in the history of pro football. He put people in hospitals. He was one heck of a hitting safety.
You mentioned, you know, Franco Harris, along with Tatum, and they were both part of probably the most famous play in NFL history, you know, the Immaculate Reception, which I think you alluded to a little bit. Wasn't it Kate Frenchy Fuqua that caused the ball to go backward, or allegedly caused it to go backward? The Raiders fans may argue against that. And, you know, Franco Harris, of course, catching it and going down the sideline for the winning score for that game in the playoffs in the 1972 or 73 season.
72? Have you ever seen a controversy last longer than that? I mean, we're talking 40-some years. And they're still arguing about it. I still see arguments on different Facebook pages today about whether or not Tatum touched the ball last or Fuqua touched it last.
You know, if they had today's rules, it wouldn't matter. But back in 72, an offensive player couldn't touch the ball to another offensive player. You had to have a defensive player touch it in between.
And that's where Tatum comes in. The people believe, the Steelers obviously believe that Tatum touched it before Franco caught it. And so that play will never be forgotten.
It's in part of NFL lore. There's an exhibit on it in the Hall of Fame. You know, so it's always going to be remembered fondly or not so fondly.
I don't know if you've ever got off an airplane at the Pittsburgh airport, but as soon as you get off the plane and you're going down the escalators, there's a picture of Franco in that position of, you know, the ball, you know, inches off the ground, him catching that famous bronze statue there. So I've seen it, and I've heard people who are Raiders fans have tried to deface it over the years. A friend of mine also played that game, Philville Piano.
And I sent him a picture of it once and he was upset. Speaking of Bill Piano, have you seen on ESPN Plus, Peyton Manning has a program called Peyton's Places. And I believe it was in season one.
He had a whole thing on the Immaculate Reception. He also had Bradshaw, Frenchy Fuqua, and Phil V, who were there for the Raiders and Franco Harris. And they talked about the play.
Of course, they tried to even Peyton Manning by throwing the ball and taking the place of Bradshaw because the guy they had come in just couldn't make that many throws. But they couldn't replicate it. And it was just a hilarious thing.
You know, Fuqua had a T-shirt he exposed and said, I'm never telling. It's a really good program. Well, you know, Peyton Manning, he's a funny guy.
And, you know, those segments are just tailor-made for him. He's a very humorous guy. And I get a kick out of watching those.
No, I do. I didn't realize how hilarious he is. He is pretty funny.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, there are some other 32s that you, you know, have on this list that you sent me that I didn't think about until a little while longer. And I'm thinking, wow, Stanley Wilson, he wore 32.
Tony Galbraith, he wore 32. And there are a few others. Rip Cain from the Lions.
These are guys that are not household names, but people who watch football diligently, they'll remember it. Benny Malone, who could forget? Well, I guess a lot of people could forget Benny Malone, but he was Mercury Morris' backup there in Miami. And he had his own distinctive running style, just like Morris did.
Pretty interesting. And then, of course, Vernon Parry had one of the greatest playoff games I've ever seen. A defensive back intercepted four Dan Fout passes in a playoff game so that the Oilers could beat the Chargers.
That was just incredible. I couldn't believe it. They would throw to, you know, he was a rookie at that time, and they would throw to a rookie that much, thinking that they're going to beat him after the third interception.
I would have been laid off. Right. But Fouts was an aggressive passer.
You know, he always thought he could stick it in, just like all the good quarterbacks do, you know, those gunslingers. That's right. Yeah.
And then there are some other 32s. Craig James played for the Patriots for a number of years. And, of course, he was part of that Pony Express backfield at SMU with Eric Dickerson.
And, you know, Craig became like an ESPN analyst, but he came out of high school and was highly touted as the next greatest phenomenon. And he was good enough to make the pros play for New England. But at that time, New England didn't have a team like the one they had with Tom Brady.
Right. And then some of these guys are just barely noticeable. I know you have Blair Thomas.
People know him better than he did in college at Penn State. I honestly couldn't tell you what team he played for in the pros. I just don't even know.
So I knew of him more in college. And then we were talking about other defensive players. Dennis Thurman played safety for the Cowboys for a number of years.
And he was, you know, he wasn't a superstar, but he was very solid and very dependable. And I think he finished his career with over 20 interceptions, which isn't too bad. And then there's John Keyworth, who played for the Broncos.
He was a great running back or at least a good running back. And he was pretty big for a running back size. He was really tall.
I think he was like six three or six four, which is generally pretty tall for a running back. He was stocky. But, you know, back at that time, the Broncos were in a transition period between Floyd Little, who's in the Hall of Fame, and Otis Armstrong, who had injuries cut his career short.
But those two guys were pretty important to get the Denver Broncos to their first Super Bowl in 1977. Yeah, I mean, those are some great, great names. And like you said, you don't think about some of those guys, you know, and associate them with the number 32.
But there are some great players from that era of football that were the 32. And we haven't even got to some of these guys who are great players in some of the other decades, too. But I mean, you touched on some of the Hall of Famers.
We have five Hall of Famers that Canton says were 32 that are in the Hall of Fame. And the first one, Red Bagrow, played long ago and he only wore it for the 1936 season. And we don't have a whole lot of stats on him.
So we've talked about him with some other numbers because he's worn some other numbers or less than 32. But, you know, you can talk about it. I think his first name is Morris. Is it Morris Bagrow? It could be.
I could look it up here real quick. I got the stats here. But yeah, it's Morris Shurum Bagrow.
His nickname was Red. I could see him sticking with Red. Right.
Yeah, I could, too. That'd be a lot of names to say there. But yeah, he was a New York Yankee, New York Giant, and a Brooklyn.
So he stayed in the New York area his entire pro career with the different leagues. So yeah, 1936, the game was a lot different then. Heck, the game was different in the 1970s.
So, in the 1930s, it was way different. Yeah, definitely. Sure was.
They still had the watermelon ball, I think, then, too. Then, they were more of a watermelon shape than what we have now. It wasn't it wasn't like it is today.
I know that. But, you know, the five Hall of Fame members of War 32, besides Bagrow, O.J. Simpson, you mentioned Jim Brown, you mentioned, Franco Harris, Marcus Allens, another one came in the early 80s, 1982 to 1997 with the Chiefs and the Raiders just had a brilliant career. So, definitely, all those Hall of Famers that we just mentioned.
I think, if you're sorry, I think those four gentlemen, the four running backs I just mentioned, Harris, Allen, Brown, and Simpson, all ought to be on our top ten list if that's OK with you. Yeah, sure. And, you know, I don't know how a person can go from the Raiders to the Chiefs or the Chiefs to the Raiders.
But he did it. And so did that as he was an assistant coach. He was also a backup quarterback for the Chiefs.
And then he went to the Raiders as an assistant coach. And then as a head coach for the for the Raiders. Oh, God.
What is his name? He just made the Hall of Fame Shanahan. No, no, no, no. He was Hispanic American.
Oh, God. I forgot his name. Tom Flores? Tom Flores.
That's it. And so he was, and he played for the Chiefs and the Raiders. And so did Marcus Allen.
And I'm thinking, well, there's a rivalry there, you know. So I know that it can be done. But I can imagine the ribbing that those two guys must have taken going from one of those rivals to another.
Yeah. Can you imagine? I mean, Marcus Allen had his first 11 years in a Raiders uniform. And can you imagine that in that first game in 1993, when he was wearing a Chiefs uniform, he was going into the Raiders stadium? And I'm not even sure where they were in the early 90s, whether they were in L.A. or back in Oakland.
They switched around so much back then that I can't remember. Oh, right. And something else, you know.
It was that way with the Steelers and the Raiders as well. The Raiders made enemies all around the league. Well, they sort of had that as their shtick.
You know, they wanted to be the bad guys. They had, you know, the silver and black uniform. You know, they had the hard hitters like Tatum and, you know, Lester Hayes and, you know, some of those defenders.
And, you know, a very aggressive offensive line. And, you know, John Madden was a pretty aggressive coach, too. Oh, yeah, without a doubt.
You know, there's I wish the Raiders would have stayed in Oakland because I'm a traditional guy. But I understand how the game has to adapt over time and stuff. And, you know, it's it's out of my hand, certainly.
I don't have a say in it, but I'm a traditional guy. And I just wish their teams would have stayed, you know, wherever they were when I was a kid. Like I do today, I really wish that the Baltimore Colts would still be the Baltimore Colts.
So. Yeah, if the league was as consistent as they are now, like when the Cleveland Browns left to go to Baltimore, you know, they left the Browns name and all their statistics and records in Cleveland, it would have been nice if they would have done that with Baltimore Colts. And, you know, the Indianapolis would have to chose a different name and start over like the Ravens did.
That would have been nice. I would. I agree.
And, you know, but I don't know why they didn't do it. I guess they probably didn't think enough to do it. But that's a shame.
Yes. Yes, it is. Yes, it is.
OK, well, I'd like to mention a couple of other 32s that we have here. More of a modern era, you know, Edgar and James were 32. He wore that jersey for 11 seasons, mostly with the Colts in 1999 and 2009.
Ricky Waters is another one that came in in 1982. I'm sorry, 1992 to 2001. More than ten seasons.
Eric Weddle, who I believe I'm not sure. I think Eric got done a couple of years ago. He finished his career with the Ravens.
But, you know, what a great safety he was with the Chargers and the Ravens at the end of his career. You know, Devin McCourtney is still playing a great quarterback lately with the Patriots, but he's worn that number 32 for 12 seasons. Reese Jones drew for eight seasons, you know, mostly with Jacksonville.
Otis Anderson's another one played at the end of the 70s into the 80s. You know, most famously for the Giants. I believe he bounced around a little bit, too.
But just you just keep going on and on. You have all these great names coming up. Throughout football history, that was at, you know, it's probably one of the most famous numbers in pro football.
I, I would think along with number 12 for quarterbacks, it's, you know, it's probably not as important as number 12 is, but I think it's as far as running backs go, I don't think you'll find a more important number. Oh, I agree. And I think the bar was set pretty high when Mr. Brown was running there in Cleveland with it.
He sort of made that number what it is. Yeah, without a doubt. So, yeah, it's a high standard to live up to.
And there are many backs that have got close to it. Not the success he has, I don't think, but he got really close. You know, you mentioned Andrew James.
I always thought that he was in the Hall of Fame or just got in there recently. I, I didn't know that he wasn't in it. I might be wrong.
That well, you know what? You are correct. Maybe he, he might be at one this year, and I, maybe I missed it, but yeah, you are right. Andrew James is in the Hall of Fame.
I'm looking at it right now. So I apologize to Edgerton and the fans of the Colts here. I have misspoken.
He'll forgive you. I'm sure. Well, I think, I think just for that fact, I think maybe he should be our fifth on the list.
What do you think? Well, he, he's, he's, he'd be the sixth because we keep forgetting the red back row. Oh yeah. OK.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
We're going to put him in too. OK. Yeah.
So here's our six. We have four spots open here. Now, we've sent some really good names, but I'm going to rely on you.
How about, is there a couple of guys maybe from the seventies that you mentioned earlier that we sort of skipped through that maybe you think, you know, maybe should like a Pardee or Curtis or, you know, I would, I would go with Curtis. I would go with Jack Tatum. I'd go with, um, what was, oh gosh.
Uh, one, the MVP of Superbowl 25, uh, for the Giants. Oh gosh. Otis Anderson.
OK. I'd go with him, and let's see if there's any sentimental one here. I have one.
I'll go. You know what? He doesn't get enough press, but I'll go with Cullen Bryant who played for the Rams and he was a great fullback. I'll go with him.
OK. Well, I think those are all pretty good picks because they are some great players. So our top 10 that we're seeing is we have Cullen Bryant, uh, Jack Tatum, Otis Anderson, Red Bad Girl, OJ Simpson, Jim Brown, Franco Harris, Edgar and James, and Marcus Allen.
That's a pretty good squad right there to have. Yeah. There's a lot of depth in that lineup.
Yeah. We've got a little offense, a little defense. So I think we're just missing a quarterback is all we have.
But, uh, one of those talented backs that we can just run wildcat all day. Right. I'd, I'd, I'd really hate to see what would happen if, if like a guy like Edgar and James, uh, has to be tackled by a Red Bad Girl, I think it, I think there's the red, red would have to go to a hospital after that could be, could be those guys back in the thirties weren't as big and as strong and as fast as those guys in the eighties and nineties were.
Oh, that's for sure. That is for sure. Well, Hey, I want to talk a little bit more about your book, you know, cause that's, it's really intriguing, you know, that NFL of the 1970s and what could somebody if you could just maybe hit some highlights that a listener that's, uh, thinking about getting your book, what could they expect in a book like that? Well, it's, it's a great book for a person who wants to, uh, look up things and is a trivia nut; a person who's a trivia nut will love the book.
Um, what I did was I took every single year in that decade, and I devoted an entire chapter to that year. And I pretty much just scoured almost all these different sources that I could find. I went to the hall of fame research library and look for different sources and different articles.
Um, I went to NFL films and looked up different things and I tried to include as much as I could. Now it doesn't have everything. There's people that have told me, man, everything's in there.
So not everything. I looked it over again and I forgot a couple of things that I should have put in there that I forgot. But for the most part, it's pretty inclusive as to all that's in there.
And I didn't really focus on just the game and the players. I talked about a lot of different aspects of what was going on. For example, in 74, I talked quite a lot about the player strike.
It was the first major player strike in the NFL. There were several before it, but this one was the first major one that had games canceled. And so I talk a lot about that.
Of course, I also talk about the idea of, you know, steroids in the game in the seventies. It became common, but it wasn't outlawed in the seventies. You could still, you know, do it.
And that's why a lot of teams were doing it. Um, and then, uh, of course, I devote a lot of time to the controversial things about the seventies. Uh, yeah, I take some controversies and hit them head like the reception or, um, the Mike Renfro's catch in the 79 AFC title game that was declared out of bounds.
Um, you know, he played for Houston, and they were playing for Pittsburgh. And, uh, if you remember well, the Houston person says he caught it in bounds. And, you know, uh, even the announcers, uh, oh gosh, I think it was Dick Emberg, and Merlin Olson could have been Kirk Gowdy.
Uh, they said, well, no, he, it was a catch, you know, um, so, uh, it, you know, that, that's, I try to touch on those types of things, but one thing that I wanted to purposefully do is put as many names in the book of players who played so that, you know, they're not forgotten that at least they could look up their name and an index and the back index of the book and see what I said about them and, you know, and just to prove to their grandkids, yeah, I was in that decade, you know? So, uh, I, it has a lot in it. Uh, it takes a long time to read it because it's a very thick, heavy book. It took me six years to write it.
So it takes a while to read it. There's a lot in there. Um, but, uh, I think people will, will enjoy, especially if you love football history, if, if you grew up in the time of the seventies, I think you almost have to have it if you want to relive those days, um, you know, a lot of people don't realize that, Joe, it's too expensive.
Well, I didn't get it. I didn't get a say in how much it would cost. I found that out.
It's my first book. And I found out the hard way that you don't get a say in it. It's the publisher that does.
So, um, you know, uh, I, I, you know, I live and you learn. And, uh, but I think that I gave people their money's worth with the number of words in there. I mean, it's pretty thick, and I think you'll like it.
Uh, there's not a lot of photographs in it, but, um, most of the people, you know, who are buying it, there's as far as I know, over 1600 people have bought a copy. But, um, they, uh, the, the comments that I've gotten on Amazon have been all positive for the most part. Um, so that makes me feel good.
And, uh, I think that a lot of people were around at that time. We'll be able to read things that they have long since forgotten and say, I remember that, and so that's what I do. Well, that definitely sounds interesting.
So, you know, make sure you check out Amazon. Uh, what's the exact title of it again, Joe? It's called the NFL in the 1970s, and it's pro football's most important decade. OK.
So make sure you look for that on Amazon. You said there are a million books, and you can probably get books online almost anywhere. I'm sure they'd be able to have it available.
Now, before I let you go, I, uh, I want to make sure we talk about your podcast. Uh, uh, the pigskin pass on the sports history network.com. You can find that. And I just listened to your latest episode.
Uh, this will probably be out about a week after that, and we're recording on April 6th. But you had a very interesting one on the, uh, journeyman quarterbacks. If you could talk about that and without spoiling anything, we want people to go listen to it, but, uh, just the highlights on that.
Yeah. You know, we remember a lot of these famous quarterbacks, uh, you know, of course, the household names, uh, Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, guys like that. But there are guys that played in the NFL that played upwards of two, three, four, five teams, um, Earl Moral, who has, I believe, three Superbowl rings, one with Baltimore and two with Miami.
He played for six different teams. You know, so he lived out of his suitcase. Um, there are a lot of guys who have made names for themselves in the NFL as quarterbacks who didn't stay with one team.
And, of course, Fran Tarkenton, you know, is a great Minnesota Vikings quarterback. Not a lot of people know that he also played, I believe, five or six years with the New York Giants. Uh, so, uh, you know, I, I thought, you know, nobody really talks about journeyman quarterbacks that much.
So that's why I did that program on them. It's truly interesting and definitely, definitely worth the listen to, uh, brings back some great memories. All of us that remember that, that era and, uh, you really bring it to life again and, uh, bring that preservation of football history, and that's what we're all looking for and all trying to do.
So we appreciate that. And, and Joe, we really appreciate, uh, you spending some time with us today and, uh, you know, going through this number 32 list is a daunting task. And I appreciate your research and, uh, diligence on it and bringing back those great memories.
And we hope to have you on again sometime real soon. Oh, thanks, Darren. Appreciate it.
Look forward to it. Take care, and have a great rest of your week. You too.
Thanks, Joe.
All right. Bye bye.
