Origin of the Dallas Cowboys

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Two of the more popular teams in the NFL based on jersey sales are undeniably the Kansas City Chiefs and the Dallas Cowboys. Their active and passionate fanbases are mobilized and outspoken and the players are some of the best on the planet. But where did these teams arise from?

Journalist John Eisenberg wrote a book on the shared rise to power of the Chiefs and Cowboys in his book: Ten-Gallon War: The NFL's Cowboys, the AFL's Texans, and the Feud for Dallas's Pro Football Future

-Transcript of Ten Gallon Wars with John Eisenberg

Darin Hayes
Hello my football friends. This is Darin Hayes at pigskindispatch.com. We are here once again to talk about some great football, professional football level today, and a very interesting book that was written by the author, John Eisenberg, one of his multiple books on the game of football. It's called 10 Gallon War, the NFL's Cowboys and the AFL's Texans, and the feud for Dallas's pro football future. We'll bring him in right now. John Eisenberg, welcome to the Pigpen.

John Eisenberg
Well, thank you for having me; I'm looking forward to it.

Darin Hayes
I am, too, because this is a very interesting topic. But before we get into your book, maybe you could just tell the listening audience a little bit about yourself and what brought on your football fandom.

John Eisenberg
Well, I grew up and am a native Texan. I grew up in Dallas and was born and raised there as a Cowboy fan. You know, I always tell people, you know, don't don't throw stuff at me too hard. But you know, I came by naturally; I grew up in their family and had season tickets from literally when the Cowboys began in 1960. So I'm a real one. And after college, you know, I got into sports writing as a career. And I actually worked in Dallas for five years there at the afternoon paper there at Dallas time, Cheryl, I did not cover pro football. But, you know, I did cover a lot of cowboy games and all that stuff. And then, in 1984, I made a big move to Baltimore Sun, where I got a column; I've been a columnist at the Baltimore Sun for 25 years. So, I did a ton of pro football there. But I got there right when the Colts were leaving. And so there was over a decade without football in Baltimore, and did a lot of Super Bowls and other cities, teams, and all that stuff. And then, of course, the Ravens came to town. And I've been covering the Ravens ever since. As a matter of fact, since 2012, that's where I write; I left the newspaper business a little over a decade ago because I've written these other books; I had that sort of secondary career. But yet, the Ravens actually bought me lock, stock, and barrel, you know, my opinions. They want me to write an opinion on their digital platforms, good, bad, or indifferent, and it's been very interesting. But I've been doing that for a decade. So, you know, I've just been an opinion maker in the Baltimore market for many, many years and been around a million football teams and players and games. And, you know, aside from my daily stuff, I've done, as you mentioned, a bunch of books.

Darin Hayes
Uh, this is going to be a very interesting dynamic in our conversation. Cause I don't know if you know, I'm from Western Pennsylvania, a lifelong president, and a Steelers fan. So I'm talking to somebody from Dallas who was born a Cowboys fan, who was sort of, uh, I grew up with that, that nemesis of, you know, the three Super Bowls played against each other and, uh, and now the Ravens, uh, the arch enemies of the Steelers, this is going to be really interesting. So this is a get some great perspective here for me.

John Eisenberg
I would like to be your worst possible guest.

Darin Hayes
Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's great when you can agree or disagree on things. And that makes conversations more interesting, I think. So I think this will be extremely interesting. So we'll have to talk a little bit about Ravens-Steelers if we have some time at the end. Now, let's get into your book. The one book that we want to talk about today is from your hometown, the Dallas Cowboys in Pro Football. And maybe you could start off by explaining where the beginnings of pro football in Dallas were and what the climate was like for pro football in that city.

John Eisenberg
Well, what's amazing was in the late fifties, there were no teams there. Dallas, you know, is now such a huge football market, but it is not one of those original markets where there were NFL teams like Pittsburgh and other places going back to the Depression and whatnot. But by the late fifties, of course, pro football was taking off. And there were a lot of cities that wanted in. Most of them were on the south way, you know, the Sunbelt, where there was starting to be some money. And certainly, in Texas, there was a ton of money, oil money. These wanted to be into pro football, but the NFL was reluctant to expand George Halas and those guys, as well as Art Rooney and Pittsburgh. They'd spent a lot of years not making any money. They were finally making money. And they were hesitant to carve up the pie. Really is what it comes down to. They trusted each other, but they weren't sure who else they should trust. So they didn't want these cities to come in. So, you know, Lamar Hunt is a 26-year-old kid who is a native of Dallas. He's the son of probably the wealthiest man in America. His father was HL Hunt, an oil man. Lamar and HL actually assumed that Lamar would go into the oil business. But Lamar was a sports nut. And he was from the beginning. He was a football player. He was a third-string end at SMU in the 50s. And he didn't want to go into the oil business. He wanted to go into football and the NFL. But those guys basically patted him on the head, Halas, and said, you know, we like you; we like your money. But we're not going to bring a team to Dallas. And so he made the decision, you know, that's what led him to form the AFL, which was that the NFL wouldn't let him in. And so that's sort of where it all started. Honestly, the roots of the whole AFL and the changes in pro football and everything that came out of that started because Dallas had no teams, and Lamar Hunt wanted one and didn't get one. So that's really where it all began.

Darin Hayes
But I don't; I didn't realize that Lamar Hunt was so young when he started his endeavor, and that's really some, having some brass tax at 26 years old. I don't know if I'd be thinking that big when I was 26 years old. I don't know about you, but that's really quite an endeavor to go to the NFL, even though it was a little bit smaller than it is now, and then start your own league when they don't accept you; that's a tremendous drive that he had to do that.

John Eisenberg
I think he was kind of naive. To be honest with you, I think he was not super competitive about it. He originally thought, well, they won't let me in. He was a very kind-hearted guy. And he was like, they're not gonna let me in. So I'll just do my own league. We won't, and maybe we don't even have to compete with them. He was really naive in that he was like, well, there's room for another league, we'll just have another league. And not realizing, of course, that the NFL people just freaked out when, you know, the possibility of another league. So, but I think when he started, he was like, oh, this will be fine. This will be great. We won't bother them. And they won't bother me. Honestly, incredibly naive.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I guess so he probably didn't look back a decade earlier at the AFC when they competed and ended up getting absorbed pretty much and had franchises eliminated when they were merged in the NFL so not a great track record for rival leagues against the NFL.

John Eisenberg
The NFL cared a lot about who the rivals were. And, you know, very quickly, realized we're getting a little ahead of it. But the people that he brought in had some money; the AFL people, Lamar, of course, had more money than all the NFL people put together. And so did Bud Adams, who started the Houston Oilers. And, you know, they had a lot of people, not all of them, but they had a lot of people with money. And so right off the bat, the NFL said, who, this is a real challenge. And so that's where things got started.

Darin Hayes
Okay, now, you also say in your book that there was another franchise that was trying to be started in Dallas about the same time, maybe if you could talk about that group or owner and the team.

John Eisenberg
Which are you referring to? I mean, there was there was an NFL team in Dallas in the early 50s. You know, there was, you know, there was that team, the Dallas Texans, that, Yeah, not.

Darin Hayes
It's the original Dallas Texans, but it's the start of the Cowboys franchise.

John Eisenberg
Oh, that. Yes. Well, yeah, I did. I didn't want to.

Darin Hayes
spill the beans too early on.

John Eisenberg
Oh, that other team. Yes, well, yeah, Clint Murchison was the oil man that eventually started the Cowboys, and he had been in touch with the NFL as well in the late fifties before there was a team, and the NFL was reluctant to expand, but sort of talking about it. He had been in touch with Halas and Rooney, and those old guys all knew him, and those guys all loved him. He was also from the oil business. He was this little, wise-cracking, bespectacled guy who was on the cover of Time Magazine at one point, really, really rich. The NFL guys loved his money, and he was funny, and they liked him. And so they had not decided to give him a team yet, but when he'd been in touch with them, they all knew him. And when the AFL started, and Lamar said, we're starting this new league, and we're gonna put a team in Dallas, the NFL, they didn't wanna lose that market. They didn't wanna lose the Dallas market and just handed it over. So they said, okay, well, we're gonna put a team in there too. And they nominated, or they basically gave Clint Merckx in a phone call and said, hey, are you ready to go? That's really what it boiled down to. And he said, great. So they expanded. The NFL had not expanded in years, and they expanded with a team in Dallas in 1960, and then they paired it with the Minnesota Vikings started in 1961. So they paired it with two teams they brought in, but they started the Cowboys almost with the snap of a finger. They said it was 1959, and the AFL was getting ready to start. And they said, hey, well, can you get a team up and running next year? And Clint Merckx said, well, yeah, we can. And so it really was almost just a quickie. They asked if we could get this thing going. And they did. But Clint Merckx is the guy that got it going. And he was a good businessman, and he made a couple of key hires, I would say, given the history of what unfolded after that. He hired Tex Schramm as the general manager, who had been with the Rams and had been with CBS TV and was a real sort of forward-thinking guy. He hired Tom Landry as the coach, a Texans Texan from the University of Texas, and they flew bomber missions in World War II and were successful; he was the defensive coordinator of the New York Giants at the time, a very successful, smart coach, and an assistant coach. Vince Lombardi was the offensive coordinator, and the staff was decent. And so he hired Tom Landry. So Clint Merckx did some very smart things. He hired some really, really good people. And so that was how the Cowboys began.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, a very interesting couple of comments here. You know, I think when you're talking about Minnesota, I believe the NFL did a similar thing with Minnesota. The AFL was about ready to open up a franchise there, and they contacted some folks up there. The Vikings came in, and I think that's what led the Minnesota franchise to turn into Oakland. I believe that's how the story went.

John Eisenberg
Yeah, yeah, that is correct. That is exactly what happened. And yeah, they were forcing hands. If the NFL said, you know, we're not going to give these markets up, it was contentious pretty quickly.

Darin Hayes
Now, in your opinion, they had Lamar hunt, and you know, they turned Lamar hunt down. He decides, okay, I'm going to start my own league, gets, gets some, uh, some of the other wealthy, uh, owners together to start this. Do you think if he hadn't done that and Murchison comes to them and says, Hey, I want to Dallas Cowboys, that they would have sort of blown him off like they did the hunt at the first time?

John Eisenberg
Very debatable. It's a great question that we'll never know the answer to. As I said, they're in no hurry to expand. They had 12 teams through the whole 50s. They were very happy with that. And the money was rolling in, as I said, from TV for the first time. And so they were making some money, and they were excited about that because they hadn't made it for 30 years. And so they may not have, but Congress was sniffing around. The pressure was coming in terms of being forced to expand. And I think they probably would have eventually. The expansion committee in the NFL was George Halas. He was on the expansion committee. They claimed to have one. It was George Halas. He was running things. And so he really had no interest, but I think he could see, and Burt Bell, who was the commissioner, that it was probably going to have to happen pretty soon. There were just so many cities that were on the outside looking in that it was almost a trust that needed to be busted.

Darin Hayes
Okay, so now we're at the point where Hunt has his team, which she ended up calling the Dallas Texans. The second carnation of the Dallas Texans, as we alluded to earlier, was an earlier team in the NFL, the Dallas Texans. And you have, you know, the Tech Tram hire and the Landry hire of the Dallas Cowboys, which are going with the other crew that had the NFL franchise. So, how did those competing teams and leagues compete in the same market? How did they deal with each other?

John Eisenberg
It was pretty crazy. Just such an unprecedented situation. There was one stadium, the Cotton Bowl, the big stadium, which was a real sort of college football shrine. They had a New Year's Bowl game there. It was a big stadium, a big concrete sort of terrain that had been the site of many, many great games. Texas and Oklahoma played there every year. I mean, Dallas was a Texas was a college football haven. That's why they wanted it. I mean, it was very popular there, especially in high school and college football. The pros were that's what they were trying to tap into a really passionate football area, which it was then and still is. But then, once they got going, they fought over dates in the Cotton Bowl. Lamar Hunt had the right and had signed a lease. And so he got the Sunday afternoon window, a number of games that he could choose from, and a number of dates. So the Cowboys actually were sort of left out on that. And they started out playing on, they played, I think the first ever game was on a Saturday night, and they had a Friday night game. And, you know, the league wasn't telling teams what to do then. The national TV contracts hadn't started. So they were just winging it at the different times when they could play. So they fought over the stadium. Finally, when the other one played when one team played, the other one was on the road, and people would decide in Dallas, would decide which side are we going on here? Almost immediately, every football fan in Dallas had to decide if I would like both, but who's really my number one? And so certainly, for instance, my family and grandfather had the purse strings with the tickets, and, you know, he was sort of an establishment guy. So he's going with the NFL. That's for sure. The old established league, not the upstart, but, you know, I had a cousin who was a young sort of hip guy, and he didn't want any part of that. And so he went with the AFL; he went with the Texans. So the, I think, I think of the way it broke down a little bit. I'm really overgeneralizing here, but maybe the older people went with the Cowboys, and the young people sort of liked the new upstart team because, right off the bat, the caliber of football was interesting. The Texans are who they are: they hired Hank Strand, they also made a great hire for a coach, and they were playing good football from the get-go. And they were winning. They were pretty good. The Cowboys were an expansion team, and the NFL was getting their brains beat in every week. So it was more fun to watch a team that was winning. So, at that point, the sixties was a minor league town. And here come the Chicago bears for a visit. That was pretty exciting, as were the New York Giants. And so they did do a lot of business at the gate with the teams coming in. I don't think the AF, the fans really cared about seeing the Oakland Raiders or whoever were brand new, but then the Chicago Bears, now you're talking. And so they just sort of cut the city up in half and, you know, tried their best. They papered the gates. Both teams wanted to draw more than the other. They gave away thousands of tickets, in particular, to Lamar Hunt. He just wanted bigger crowds than the Cowboys and did everything he could to do that. And so free, you know, everybody gets in free practically. So there were just all sorts of shenanigans right from the very beginning.

Darin Hayes
Now, I think you allude to in your book, which I found to be very interesting in this dynamic, especially these first couple of years, that each franchise had its own marketing strategy and how-to team-building strategy. Maybe you could go into that a little bit to learn what Hunt's philosophy is. I know you're saying he gave away tickets and everything, but it seemed like you had a bit more fanfare with him.

John Eisenberg
with the AFL for sure, you know, and it really boils down to the AFL versus the NFL. The AFL played more wide-open football. They were certainly at that point, and there's a whole other story. You know, we're a little more racially open-minded than the NFL. That was definitely happening in the AFL. And they tried to bring in local guys to be on the, you know, to lead the team, people that the college football fans may know. And yes, as I said, I mean, Lamar Hunt was a marketer. And so they tried, they tried everything. I mean, they, you know, shot off cannons with a ticket, and they set off balloons over the city with the free tickets in them. And if, you know, it came down in your backyard, you got free tickets to the Texans game. If you went and got your car washed, they would give you a free ticket. They were just doing anything they could to get people to come. The Cowboys were more buttoned-down, a sort of traditional business. Pay your ticket, come in, and we'll take our lumps at the gate because we know we're just starting out. But you understand that because the AFL was a new product. And so, but Lamar was doing everything he could to get attention. You know, they brought in, you know, they had, they hired 30 attractive women. Talk about something, you know, in 2021 that would raise some eyes. They hired a team of attractive women to drive around in convertibles and give tickets away and attract attention, you know, the Texan girls or whatever they called them. I can't remember. And so, I don't know how successful they were, but the good news for Lamar is he married one of them. So, uh, so that worked out well for him. The Cowboys were more traditional.

Darin Hayes
Okay, so we know that today we don't have two teams in Dallas, you know, we know that the AFL and the NFL eventually merged. And there's only one team in the Dallas, Fort Worth area that play a major pro football. So what happened after that, that one of the teams left, we obviously the Cowboys are the team still there. What happened to the Texans?

John Eisenberg
Well, the Texans played three seasons there. They had winning teams. They drew some decent crowds. And in their third season, they had a really good team in 1962. They had Lynn Dawson as a quarterback. They had Abner Haynes, who is one of these guys that is just lost in the mists of history; he was a great player in the early years of the AFL running back and could catch the ball out of a lot of nice players on their team. And they wound up getting into the championship game, the Dallas Texans, in 1962. And they played the Houston Oilers. So it was an all-Texas game, and this epic game unfolded. They were down in Houston. And, you know, they had a big lead, and then the Oilers came back on them. And this is a nationally televised game. And they wind up going into overtime. And it was tremendous, and the viewing audience was tremendous. In some respects, it was the day the AFL really was legitimized. You know, people talk about the Colts Giants championship game in 1958 as sort of legitimizing the NFL. Well, the Texans-Oilers game in 1962 sort of legitimized AFL going into overtime. And this unbelievable scene unfolds where the Texans blow the coin flip to overtime. And the Oilers wind up with the ball and the wind. Nonetheless, they survived that and wound up winning the game in overtime. So the Dallas Texans are AFL champions, and they fly home. The only bad news is Lamar Hunt knows he's already decided to move the team. He had decided this wasn't going to work. This isn't going to work for me. I mean, we're sort of building things a little bit. And we're growing a little bit. But for the sake of this league, we need success stories. And we're in for a fight here. He realized, and what's interesting, that Lamar and Clint Ferguson were friends. They were in the oil business families, and they knew each other. Clint Ferguson was going nowhere. The Cowboys were from the established league, and they had Tom Landry and Tex Schram. And they might be losing right now. But they were building something, and they were going nowhere. They were not a fly-by-night operation. And Clint was loaded. So he could afford to lose money a little bit. So Lamar just made the decision, you know, and he founded AFL; he said we have to find somewhere where we can be successful. So he looked long and hard in New Orleans. It was really funny. He had friends in the oil business in New Orleans. And they told him you can't do it here. There's too much money under the table in New Orleans. You can't you can't go there. You the way they do business there, you won't do well. So we wound up going to Kansas City. And you know, they gave him a sweet deal, a bunch of season tickets, a promise. And he was the only game in town. So he went there. He went there. So it broke his heart. I mean, that was his hometown. He never got over it. And the Chiefs, you know, they changed the name to the camp. I mean, some friends told him he was so heartbroken that you could call him the Kansas City Texans. And, you know, Lamar was a Texan and was halfway like, yeah, I just my just do that. But, you know, they want a cooler head prevailed, as they say. So, they moved, you know, within weeks of winning the championship, the defending champions in the AFL in 1963 kicked off in a new city. And so three years and gone, and broke the hearts of their fans in Dallas. And to this day, there is an older group now, but you will find a small group of football fans, pro football fans in Dallas who hate the Cowboys. They hate them. Really? Yes. The reason is that they were Texans fans. They loved the Dallas Texans. They love the AFL. And they never got over it. They didn't get over it. It was well, you know, our team left town, you moved my team out of town, and I'll never forget it before. So it's a very small group, I might add, but they say

Darin Hayes
My mother lives in the Dallas area, and I just visited there this summer and got to go see AT&T Stadium. I got my picture outside the Cotton Bowl, you know, did all the touristy football things, and I don't know everything. When I looked there, I saw that silver stars were everywhere.

John Eisenberg
,

Darin Hayes
that the souvenir store inside AT&T Stadium; a couple of days later, I was at the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The souvenir at the stadium for just Cowboys paraphernalia is much larger than the Pro Football Hall of Fame by far. They have many more items in there, in my opinion, in their sort of back-to-back days. Now, you've said before the Lamar Hunt left and went to conversations in some backroom somewhere over some adult beverages to sort of work things out.

John Eisenberg
Yeah, they may have. I'm sure they did have conversations. I think the possibility of them working things out was slim. You know, this was sort of an elite class of guys, I mean, financially, and they're sort of used to wheeling and dealing. And they have a lot of conversations about a lot of things, I think. So yeah, they probably did talk about that. And, you know, I'm sure the NFL guys told Clint, Listen, you know, if you could, especially before the AFL started, when it was clear, there are going to be two teams, it's like, Listen, can you bring Lamar in? Can you do this? Can you get him to, you know, call off the dogs? Can you do something with Lamar? We know you know him. And Clint said, Well, yeah, I'm sure they probably had conversations then. But once the, you know, Lamar was a traditionalist and, and, and once he decided that we're going forward with this, and he had partners, you know, he had these guys in these other cities, then there was no going back. I mean, he was, he was down the road with, you know, Bud Adams, and Ralph Wilson, and Buffalo, and, you know, Harry Wismar, and those guys with New York Jets, and, and, you know, Baron Hilton in San Diego, or what wound up being San Diego, the first year was the charge of LA. But now, ironically, they're back after all these years, but you know, he had some partners. And so he was there. Clint might have talked to him about it, but he wasn't going to change his mind.

Darin Hayes
Now, I guess, I mean, it's a happy ending win-win for both franchises because things look pretty good for them. You're just less than a decade later, you know, Kansas City much earlier in the AFL, but even when they were both in the NFL, both had some championship runs. So it worked out very well. And I think Kansas City is very happy to have the Chiefs, especially nowadays.

John Eisenberg
Well, they got a great, yes, and they got a great owner. I mean, Lamar Hunt is one of the great owners in sports, you know, and now his son's running it. But, you know, Lamar was very fan-friendly. He cared a lot about, you know, let's make it good for the fans. I mean, he, you know, they built those two stadiums in Kansas City that were not the 1970 football, baseball sort of all of which had been blown up, you know, which didn't really work. He had sports-specific stadiums. That was Lamar wanting that. And yeah, I mean, so they got it. He would walk the parking lot before games in Kansas City and talk to the fans. Are you okay? How are your seats? Are you happy? You know, he was just, you know, a humble guy that cared about the fans. And, of course, he loved other sports. I mean, I covered him at the beginning of my newspaper career in Dallas. He had owned a soccer team. It was a team in Dallas, and I covered it. And that's when I dealt with Lamar a lot. And if you had a question, you just called him. I mean, his phone was listed. You just called Lamar Hunt, and his phone was listed. Yeah, he'd just call him. He'd answer the phone.

Darin Hayes
I assume Jerry Jones isn't the same way. He just has his number public. No, I don't think so. So he'd probably never get off the phone.

John Eisenberg
So, they had a great owner in Kansas City. They were very happy with the way it worked out. And, of course, what was really great and what I enjoyed writing about was the Chiefs won when they were gonna start the Super Bowl that first year after the 66th season, the Chiefs won the AFL title, and the Cowboys hosted Green Bay in the NFL Championship game at the Cotton Bowl. And we're one play away from forcing overtime the Lombardi Packers and Super Bowl one. And I am really kind of an old Cowboy fan. I really kind of blew the game. I mean, they're all in the one-yard line, and there was a moving penalty, and they were going in for the tying score. And it probably would have been overtime. That would have been interesting to see Lombardi in overtime. But anyway, the Cowboys were almost there. It was almost the two franchises in the first Super Bowl. So, as it turned out, Super Bowl four, then three years later, the Chiefs were back in it, and they won. And then that is the last AFL, the last game between the AFL and NFL before the merger. In the last game, the Kansas City Chiefs kicked the Minnesota Vikings up one side and down the other. You know, one of you talk to these old AFL fans, one of the great days in history. And so Lamar, in some respects, got a last laugh with that. I mean, he lost his hometown, and he never forgot it, but he had a lot of success in his life.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, very, very interesting book. Maybe if you could let our listeners know where your book this book and your other books would be available for purchase so they can get some more of the details that you have in there. So it's a truly a great book.

John Eisenberg
Well, this book, I wrote another one actually before it, about growing up in Dallas as a cowboy fan. It's really sort of an ode to being an early kid in the 1960s. And it's called Cotton Bowl Days. That's one. And then the 10 Gallon War. I also wrote a book about Vince Lombardi's first year with the Packers in 1959. The year that he took, I didn't write about the dynasty years, just all the changes that took place in that first year, which I found the story fascinating. And the most recent football book was called The League, which is a league-wide story. It's about the early years of the NFL and how they barely made it. And I'm talking about twenties, thirties, forties, and fifties, and it focuses on five owners, five owners who sort of just pick the league up by the collar and drag it through these years. And Art Rooney in Pittsburgh is one of them. Birdville in Philadelphia. George Preston Marshall in Washington. And then, of course, Hallis with the Bears and Tim Mara. The original Mara started the New York Giants in 1925 for $500. So those are my football books, and they're all available on Amazon. You know, these are with major publishers. I've written for over a period of years, and they're out there. You can get an audio version. You can get a paperback. You can certainly get a hardback on Amazon anywhere. Any major bookseller would be able to get these books for you.

Darin Hayes
I have a feeling my Prime account is going to be very active this weekend, so I am making some purchases. And I'm sure most of our listeners will, too, when this airs. So yeah, very interesting. I got to hear some about your book. You were on with one of my associates, Jeremy McFarland, I believe not too long ago, talking about the book The Late, the Late, yeah. So, so yeah,

John Eisenberg
early days, the NFL. I'm fascinated with it. It's people who just can't believe in this day and age. The NFL is so high, mighty, and rich. People can't believe that it was like a, you know, a little little, you know, fly-by-night operation. And then that's exactly what it was for many years. And so I really enjoyed researching that book.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's really a fascinating story, especially, you know, I have my Steelers connection; I've done a lot on Steelers history and read a lot on Steelers history. And I've got a guest coming on here soon in the next couple of days, Alan March, who is Dr. March's great-grandson, who helped with the work with Mara and developing the Giants and some of their stories. So that's history there with those five teams, which is fascinating. I look forward to reading that book. Now, okay, now, we got to get to the questions here. Now, you are your connection with the Ravens. Now, I know, less than a month from now, I believe it's going to be the first Steelers-Ravens game. And I know what it is like here in Western Pennsylvania and listening to the Pittsburgh media when it's Ravens week, everything is focused on Ravens week; I don't know, the Pirates could be winning, the Penguins could be winning, it doesn't matter. It's Ravens week, and the city is in a frenzy. And that's all everybody wants to talk about. Is that the same way it is in Baltimore?

John Eisenberg
Oh, very much so. It has been for many, many years. I will say I think it's waned a little bit, just because, you know, there are other teams out there and the, you know, Kansas City Chiefs and there's a lot going on. But for sure, I mean, the Steelers are the number one rivalry by far. And yeah, I mean, everybody still, they call it Steeler Week, you know, okay, so

Darin Hayes
So it's the same now, I know, living in the 70s. I live in Erie, Pennsylvania, So I'm a hundred miles from Buffalo, a hundred miles from Pittsburgh, and a hundred miles from Cleveland. Three NFL franchises have been doing pretty well here in the last couple of years, anyway. Before the Ravens became the Ravens, they were the Browns, of course, and I don't remember even as a kid when Browns week, as you know, it was a rivalry, and we had fun with it. Especially, you know, that's sort of a mixed bag here and here with, you know, fans split between the three teams. But I don't ever remember it being like it is for a Ravens rivalry. I mean, these two teams just seem to, you know, bring out the best in each other. They're probably the hardest hit you see in either team's highlight films. It was always where it's always a Steelers-Ravens game. It seems like, you know, you go back to the Heinz Ward block, you go with. You know, some of the linebacker hits on Roethlisberger, and you know where his nose is broken, his helmets are sideways. It's a Ravens game, and I think those are just some of the fantastic Games and probably one of the best rivalries in football going probably the last decade or so

John Eisenberg
Yeah, I mean, I think that's when the AFC North was formed. When did they go to that in 2002, I think? I believe so when they went to that. So, you know, before that, the Ravens were sort of battling with the Tennessee Titans in the old, but I can't remember what they called it. AFC Central was. AFC Central. So, you know, the Ravens, I think, have been in this. I mean, I know this for a fact: they were a new franchise when they moved to Baltimore, even though our model moved them. I mean, they started over with Ozzy Newsom and a lot of new people. And they really sort of modeled themselves after the Steelers because the Steelers, the way that they've operated with real staying the course with your personnel, hire the right people, keep with them, don't make changes all the time, you know, build through the draft, be patient. You know, I really think, especially when Steve Beshotti became the owner, it's almost like they took a thing, put it up on a bulletin board, and said, here's what we're shooting for right here. Okay, we're going to operate this way. And it was how the Steelers operated. And so the fact that they were in the same division was interesting. And so they sort of built themselves that way. And it helped organically. They had, you know, they drafted these great defensive players, Ray Lewis and all these guys. So they had a tough physical team. So they sort of modeled themselves after that. And then when they caught up to some degree, then you just had two really good teams just battling. And I think that's what fans, you could identify with that rivalry, you know, they were going to hit each other. And it was just football, it was classic football, you know, it's what fans want from football. And so that's what made it such a good rivalry. And a lot of the old Ravens that I talked to, and I'm sure the old Steelers are the same. That's the games they remember. That's the games they remember. So I was talking to Kelly Greg, an old, you know, an old line defensive lineman, the little squatty guy that I'm sure the Steeler fans are remembering as a great little nose tackle. And boy, he remembers battling Alan Panica, like, like nobody's business just down in the mud, you know, just, you know, and that these guys all have memories like that. So it's this just classic football. And I think that's what people like about

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's just a tremendous rivalry, you know, maybe if you could tell folks where you can read your items that are on the Ravens, that you said you're doing that a couple times a week. Yeah, some things if you give that address out.

John Eisenberg
Pretty sure. Well, that's www.BaltimoreRavens.com. It's their website. I mean, my opinions on there. There's a column on Tuesday, there's a column on Saturday, and within two hours of the game being over, my opinions on whatever game is just taking place. So that's my gig these days. And, you know, just so it's there. And of course, it's, you know, they put it all stuff on social media. So it's all over the place, you know, on the NFL team website, and there's a lot of traffic. So, that's where I am these days.

Darin Hayes
But we really appreciate you taking the time from your busy schedule and appreciate your knowledge of football's past, going back into the beginnings of the NFL, right up and through the 50s and 60s, with your books and now writing about modern football on the Ravens website and of course the columns that you did back when you were still writing for the newspaper. I appreciate your well-rounded history and sharing information with us today, as well as the stories of these great Dallas teams and franchises in that history, and I appreciate you being on.

John Eisenberg
Well, it's my pleasure. Thanks. I enjoyed it. And yeah, I love it. I love writing about the history. It's, it's fun stuff. And, you know, I find that a lot of people can relate to it. I've heard from a lot of non-Dallas football fans about these Dallas books that I wrote. So they're just sort of eternal, right? I mean, it transfers if you're a fan of some team, you're an old football fan, you like this stuff. So it's my pleasure to do it, really. It's a labor of love.

Darin Hayes
I can testify to that because I'm not a big fan of either team, but I found the book extremely interesting because of the history, the great story that you had, and the stories within the story. Just fascinating, well done, and much appreciated. So, I appreciate you being on here today, too. So thank you, John.

John Eisenberg
Thank you.