Joe Ziemba Bears versus Cardinals

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Joe Ziemba, the author of numerous books, including the famous When Football was Football: The Chicago Cardinals and the Birth of the NFL, gives a foreshadow of his upcoming novel Bears versus Cardinals: The NFLs Oldest Rivalry. Joe is the host of the When Football was Football Podcast and has an earlier written book of the same name, among various other works. Ziemba Written Book


-Transcript of Joe Ziemba on his Bears vs Cardinals book

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And we have a great interview session tonight. We're gonna talk to our friend. It's the author of multiple books on football, especially Chicago area football. That's Joe Ziemba, and his latest book is out. Bears versus Cardinals, the NFL's oldest rivalry. It is a very interesting title and a very interesting topic. Very interesting author. We'll bring them in right now. Joe Ziemba, welcome back to the Pigpen.

Joe Ziemba
Oh, Darin, thanks so much for having me back again. It's been a while since I saw the pig pen has been remodeled. It looks nice and clean, and really ready and anxious to talk about the Bears and the Cardinals.

Darin Hayes
Hey, we kept your spot open at the trough here at the pig pen, so you're always welcome here. It's been much too long, and that's my fault. I need to have you on more. More Joe is always a good thing.

Joe Ziemba
And we appreciate that. Thanks so much for letting me babble on a few times. So it's it's all good. It's all about the history of pro football.

Darin Hayes
Well, it's probably hard to make an appointment with you because I'm seeing all over social media, and I live, you know, 800 miles away from you. And it seems like you're booked on something almost every evening talking about, you know, the Bears and the Cardinals and your wonderful book. You know, you're on quite the tour-a-lura.

Joe Ziemba
And, you know, people always say they're living the dream. And right now, it is great because the book has come out, and a lot of libraries and different organizations have asked me to talk about the book. And I don't really promote the book. Obviously, I'd like to market it, so that's part of it. But it gives me the opportunity to talk about the Bears and Cardinals. You meet so many interesting people. I gave a talk this week at a library, and an 89-year-old young lady came up and said she was a Bear season ticket holder on the 50-yard line and her cousin knew George Alice. And she knew exactly what I was talking about when we go back to the early fifties in these talks. And even the fact with old photos where the referees were kind of dressed up with a suit and tie and a hat. And she said I remember those guys. So it was, it's kind of neat. You meet different types of people. And I really enjoy that as much as giving the talks.

Darin Hayes
Well, you're definitely hitting a great nerve with the public. I'm sure they're going ecstatic about it up in Chicago. You know, people, the old Cardinals fans are remembering it. Of course, the Bears fans, uh, new and older, probably enjoying hearing this, uh, you know, relishment of, uh, history. And you have quite a bit of history. That's somewhat forgotten, and a lot of people didn't know about it. Um, maybe you could talk about that a little bit. Yeah.

Joe Ziemba
The history of both teams is quite unusual. Both teams had fires in their storage units, and I'm not sure exactly when, Darin, but I think it was in the fifties. And so a lot of the history was lost, which means that history that may have been written before was taken as being the truth. Now, we do have some documentation, for example, with the Bears. George Halas wrote his autobiography, which came out in the early seventies or late sixties, I believe. It first came out in the Chicago Tribune as a multi-day series. But George was writing this stuff many decades after it occurred. And it's not a big deal. It certainly doesn't matter, but there are a few errors in there. One of the bigger ones that I saw was that I questioned whether George Helles and the Decatur Staley's voluntarily left Decatur in 1921. Again, you say, who cares? But as you and I are historians, you kind of enjoy that stuff and that information. And I think it's kind of interesting in the book where we're able to track down why I don't think George Helles left voluntarily. We in Chicago are certainly glad that he did because the Bears are here right now. And there's something similar with the Cardinals. The Cardinal's history just did not make sense when I did my last book a few centuries ago called When Football Was Football because I was looking up as much as I could, and I really kind of went deep in research as much as possible and found out that the dates that the Cardinals continue to publicize are inaccurate. And there's nothing wrong with that. Who cares if we're off a little bit 125 years ago or whatever? It's been fun in this latest book on the rival; I was able to document where the history was stretched a little bit and who did it. And when all that stuff comes together, and you've got a pile of information, you want to make sense of it; I hope that readers will now make sense of the history of both teams and that maybe some of that stuff isn't quite accurate and that we've been led to believe. That includes the date when the Cardinals started and how the team got its name. There are a couple of old stories that, indeed, weren't true. One, for example, said in 1920 that the owner of the Cardinals challenged the Chicago Tigers for the right to represent Chicago, and whoever lost the game would hand over their franchise to the other team. And we found out there's absolutely no truth to that, but it made for a good story. Again, we try to provide the reasons why that was not accurate and what happened after that. So lots of fun. And as you mentioned, people are getting into it. We have a lot of nice discussions at these meetings. Again, last week, a lady in the audience who again had been a season ticket holder came up to me beforehand. This talks about the rivalry and how tough it was back then. She said I hope you're not talking about the Cardinals. I said, well, yeah, it's part of the book. So I have to do that. She said, well, I'm a Bears fan all the way through. And then we'll have older Cardinals fans who remember and say, did Hellas kick them out of Chicago? And I'll say, well, he certainly helped. And part of that reason was George Hellas authorized a half million dollars to the Cardinals in 1960 to leave town. Even though the real reason was the blackouts and the TV rights, which happens when you have a city with two NFL teams at the same time, the only city that had that. So, the Bears did have something to do with the Cardinals leaving the city of Chicago.

Darin Hayes
you bring up a lot of different topics there that are, like, I have interest peaks going all over the place. I'm sure the readers do, too. But maybe let's start at the beginning because, although we found out earlier, I don't read the acknowledgments in books very well. But I do like to read the preface of books. And you have a very interesting opening, and sort of a personal opening, where you talk about a period in your life and a person in your life that sort of helped propel this book.

Joe Ziemba
Exactly, Darren. And it was my dad who played college football. He went to Mount Carmel High School in Chicago and then went to a little place called St. Benedict's in Kansas. At that time, there were no real divisions, either at big schools or small schools. St. Benedict's, which is now Benedictine in Atchison, was considered a smaller school, although they played Creighton in New Mexico State and Wichita State. He was named first-team All-American. After that, he apparently received a lot of letters from places like George Ellis, the Bears, and the Detroit Lions. There was a draft in place. And he did get drafted by the Cardinals in the 12th round, I think of the 1940 draft. But he never talked about his football experience. He was a coach. And he's actually inspired all three of my books because of coaching and his experience. But I've always wanted to find out more about what happened. And ultimately, he got injured in training camp. I found a magazine where he made the final roster; I think it was 32 players at the time. But it would have been a simple arthroscopic surgery now. But then he figured, why go through the pain? And besides, Darren could make more money coaching high school football than he could as a professional football player in the National Football League back in the 40s. So here's my question, Darin: what do you think this contract called for in terms of payment?

Darin Hayes
Oh, let's see. We're talking, um, so be the Cardinals, and in 1940, you said, yes, yes. Pre World War II. I'm going to say, uh, a hundred bucks a game.

Joe Ziemba
right there. The rookie contract called for $110 a game. But they had to provide their own shoulder pads and cleats. So maybe it did come down to 100. And they didn't get paid if they missed a game because of injury. So, that is all the more reason for him to check out of the hospital and become a high school coach. But yeah, great guess, great guess

Darin Hayes
Oh, the other thing that piqued my interest was that you talked about these fires that both the Cardinals and the Bears had; you know, it was two separate fires, right? It wasn't; they didn't keep all their records in the same place, and there was a fire.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, they have different headquarters. And so, uh, someday it's one of those things we always say as researchers, I want to look into then see if I can define exactly when the dates were for those, but, uh, without a lot of the records and we're going by hearsay or things that have been published through the years that have just taken his truth and, and more so for the Cardinal side than the bears, uh, we found out that a lot of this information started in the forties or fifties about that game between the Cardinals and the Tigers, for example, and about how the team got its name, you know, one of the things that always has kind of bugged me was it said that crystal Brian, the owner of the Cardinals in 1899, when the team started, uh, bought used jerseys from the University of Chicago named a Solonzo stag, and stagged and not liked the idea of professionalism. He caused a big bruja in the early twenties by syndicating a national letter talking about how evil professional football was, but I wanted to see it for sure. And I was able to, uh, see if the jerseys match; first of all, Crystal Brian was 17 or 18 years old. He certainly didn't own the team, and Stagg was unlikely to sell jerseys, but I had a chance to go to the University of Chicago, which keeps extensive records of coach Stagg's, uh, all those financial dealings, and this correspondence, I could not find anything, which doesn't mean much, but they did have photos. I do have a photo of the Cardinals in 1900 when they were known as the Morgan athletic club, and the photos don't match, even though they're not in color. So that's the kind of research that has helped me to understand that there might be little errors here and there as we move through history. Again, it doesn't affect the team today, but we're not changing history, but kind of correcting it or adjusting it a little bit.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I always thought that story was kind of odd, too, because, you know, the Chicago, of course, was the maroon. So, I'm assuming they probably had a maroon-colored Jersey. And you know, they've come up with a Cardinal red out of that out of the maroon. I just don't get that either. That doesn't make much sense either.

Joe Ziemba
Oh, that's why when the team started in 1901, it was called the Cardinal Social and Athletic Club, not named after a bird or a uniform and crystal Brian certainly didn't own the team, although he and his brother and one other gentleman started the first version of the Cardinals in 1899. But yeah, Maroons does not match Cardinal Red, at least in my opinion, Darren.

Darin Hayes
All right. Now, George Hallis is always an interesting subject. You know, I have sort of a love-hate relationship. I don't know if everybody else does, but I have a sort of love-hate relationship. I look through him through history. You know, there are some things that he did that were just spectacular, both as him as an athlete, and some of the great things that he did is starting the NFL and, you know, keeping Decatur and Chicago, those teams, going and what he did for the game, but other things, you know, I sit there, and I look at some of these sorts of sly little maneuvers he would make to put the Bears in title contention, you know, you know, back, you know, there's probably at least three or four stories where the Bears were in second place, and he sort of tried to swindle or did swindle another team into playing an extra game to try to gain an advantage for his team, which you can't blame a guy for doing. It just seems a little bit underhanded by today's standards.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, and a good example would be Buffalo. I believe that was 1921 when the Bears invited Buffalo to come to Chicago. Um, supposedly for an exhibition game, and somehow the league counted the game, which the Bears won as a regular season game, even though there are two or three reasons why it shouldn't have been considered, but back then, there were no playoffs, the league champion was decided by a vote of the owners at the end of the season, factually the next year. And so in the book, what I've tried to do to present all sides is to have some of the authors who have written on that, like Jeff Miller, has written extensively on Buffalo, and get his opinion. He was helpful in providing some articles from the Buffalo newspapers. And we see that along the way, even with red grains, um, joining the Bears in 1925, the day after he finished his college career. And the rule was that the pros weren't going to touch the college players. And with the assumption that, yeah, he could sign them once their class graduated, of course, Hallis took it as well. Red Grange finished his college career on Saturday. On Sunday, he was with the Bears, although Chris Willis, I think you've talked to a few times, who wrote the exceptional, uh, biography of Red Grange, tells us that, yeah, the maneuvers were going on well before that Saturday after Grange's final game. Then, we also tell a story about Joseph Aldi in 1930, a rookie out of Notre Dame who committed a terrible, grievous crime. Can you guess what he did during your Notre Dame fan?

Darin Hayes
The name and the story sound familiar, but I can't put my finger on what he did.

Joe Ziemba
Well, what he did was terrible. He got married. You couldn't get married in Notre Dame. And remain it's, you know, they got kicked off the football team, but out of school. So Curly Lambeau was searching around for that to bring Joseph Aldi up to Green Bay, and Alice was there as well. And supposedly, there was some backroom talk that both would lay off Joseph Aldi, the same argument: his class didn't graduate. Alice interpreted that as well. He played his final game, and he can't play anymore anyway. So I'll sign them. He signed them to a $4,000 contract, second only to Bronko Nagurski's $5000 a year. And, of course, that brought up some hard feelings. The NFL did get involved. Halis and Savaldi, I guess, decided he was going to make more money as professional wrestlers. But Dallas, as you mentioned the questions, there are two or three examples of where he may have stretched the truth a little bit. But what a fantastic man, and what a great coach and player he was for many years till he retired in his late 20s. And all he did to keep football going, as he said once, he didn't know if he could take any money out of the team. He and Dutch Sternaman, who was his partner, wanted to give each other $100 a game back in the early 20s if they had $100 left. Of course, now the Bears are worth $ 5.2 billion. So Halis did something right.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's a good investment on his part. Now, that brings up another question, something that I've always had a little bit of. You know, Mr. A. E. Staley was the original sponsor of the team with his starch company, I believe you're in. Halas was a player and coach, I believe, in the very first year of the end of the APFA 1920. Right? Am I correct so far? You are. Yep. Okay. So when they came through the next year of the year after, when Staley sort of washed his hands off the team, he gave the team $5,000 to Hallis.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, that is correct. And that was midway through 1921. Alice had toyed with playing games in Chicago in 1920, and then in 1921, others were scheduled to draw a bigger crowd. From my recollection, the home games in Decatur, Illinois, could only seat about 1500 people. And so for Staley, this was a great investment if you look at it as a pure marketing endeavor, where his team was mentioned in newspapers all over the country as the league started to get more publicity. But I think he was drowning and lost in expenses with sponsoring teams. He had a baseball team that traveled all over and, of course, football, and the players worked at the Staley company. Alice worked out a deal with Mr. Staley, where the football team could practice a couple hours a day on company time. So it was a great deal for them. But in that letter in 1921, way at the bottom of it, it says, and please be understood, as he's saying to Alice, once you leave Decatur, don't come back is essentially what Mr. Staley said. So, in the book, I've kind of worked on that and found some other quotes, and as you might see, as you read through it, I don't think George Hallis left Decatur voluntarily. In fact, I'm pretty certain of it, and I tried to lay out the reasons and the proof of why that might have happened. But yeah, it was a great deal for a while. And then, unfortunately, the Staley's dropped in January of 22, I believe, all their sports, and a lot of the townspeople and, of course, some of the employees who were working or playing on those teams were quite upset. A cartoon appeared, which is in the book as well, that showed the different products produced by the Staley company. They were kind of pushed aside because Mother Staley was holding the football and the new baby and giving preference over the other children from the company.

Darin Hayes
Now, why do you think that he, that Mr. Staley gave, given the teams, one thing that's, I mean, probably a decent expense right there? Maybe it was just to get rid of him having to spend money, but why give Alice, you know, the sum of $ 5,000, which was pretty good money back in the early 20th century?

Joe Ziemba
Absolutely. Yeah. 5,000 was a lot of money and got Hellas through the season. But I think that was to really encourage Hellas to take the team, and they defined it as being advertising money because the team would be known as the Chicago Staley's. Even though they completed the 1921 season in Chicago, they kept the name Staley's. It wasn't until 1922 that the Chicago Bears were incorporated, which was a whole different story. It was through the fiasco of Hellas trying to incorporate the team or even having a franchise in the league that the NFL finally recognized him. But yeah, the $5,000, I think, was to really encourage George Hellas and the football team to go away and not come back.

Darin Hayes
Oh, okay. So not only naming rights, but yeah, get out of Dodge, go to Chicago, or go elsewhere. Anyway. Okay. Interesting. Well, let's take a break. I mean, that's some great news. Those are some great things in the book. Let's take the opportunity to, once again, say the name of your book and where folks can get it, Joe.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, the name of the book is Bears versus Cardinals, the NFL's oldest rivalry. It's from McFarland; you can order directly from the publisher or the usual online sources like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Target, which all carry the book. So it's pretty easy to get online.

Darin Hayes
Okay, now you have it called Bears versus Cardinals. So obviously, they played some games against each other, and there was a rivalry, I'm assuming when they both played in the same town. Maybe you could hit some of the highlights of some of the big games and rivalry-type things that happened between these two franchises.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, I tried to go back because every time I do research and I'd see a Bears-Cardinals game, it still seems to end up in a fight or fight among the stands in the stands or fight on the field, or everybody combined and had a good time getting into a fight. So, I wanted to find out where the rivalry started. And actually, it centers around Paddy Driscoll, P A D D Y, who was a halfback out of Northwestern and actually played outfield one season for the Chicago Cubs. And, of course, since he was still in college, he lost his college eligibility. He played in the Great Lakes Naval Station team that won the 1919 Rose Bowl. He and George Halas later played for the Hammond Pros in 1919. So the reason I'm telling you this is that Halas and Driscoll had a nice relationship as players. Driscoll functions as a quarterback. Halas is the end. Halas was the MVP of the 1919 Rose Bowl. But when the pro league started in 1920, there was great excitement when Halas was recruiting all these players for the Staley's because he signed the legendary Patty Driscoll. And that was great news: a big name came to Decatur. And then, quietly, about a week later, the newspapers reported Patty Driscoll signed with the Chicago Cardinals, then known as the racing Cardinals. So Halas may have been a little upset with the Cardinals, but his pursuit of Driscoll never stopped. In the early part of 1922, we learned from the newspaper, from the paperwork that I found with the state of Illinois, that Hallis not only recruited Driscoll to play for him but made him an owner with Hallis and Dutch Sterneman of the newly incorporated Chicago Bears. Of course, Chris O 'Brien, who by then was the manager of the Cardinals, went nuts and went to the league because one of the reasons for starting the NFL was to prohibit or eliminate players jumping from team to team. And Hallis was given a slap on the wrist and told that now you couldn't touch Patty Driscoll; he was the property of the Cardinals, which he was. At the time, the highest-paid player in the league was $300 a game, while some of the players were still getting $25 or even $10. So the story didn't end there because in November, Thanksgiving day in 1922, I think you and I have talked about this before, Bears and the Cardinals played, and Halas and Joey Sterneman, the brother of Dutch Sterneman, not only tackled Driscoll but picked him up and head slammed him into the ground. And that led to quite a ride on the field. Fans got involved, and the police got involved. The story appeared in the newspapers about George Hallis being knocked down, and a fan was straddling him with a pistol pushed up against George Hallis' head. And so it just seemed like every time the teams played, there'd be some kind of fiasco. In fact, it was rare. And the other thing about the rivalry, and this is, we talked about Crystal Bryan going nuts. I go nuts when I watch television when the Bears and the Packers play. And it said the NFL's oldest rivalry. And that happened again, most recently, but it was the Bears and the Cardinals. When the Bears were the Stalies and the Cardinals were still the racing Cardinals, they played the year before the Packers even entered the league. But that's not the reason I wrote the book. I just found the stories on both sides so fascinating that it went from a competition. It was mostly the players who didn't like each other. You can even find Ernie Nevers talking about 1929, scoring 40 points against the Bears, which is still an NFL record for one game, and why he did it. And you go into the fifties with Ed Sprinkle, the Bears, and Charlie Trippi taking turns knocking each other out on the field. Fans are jumping. I think it was 1957 or 58, jumping on the field to join in a fight. And even when the Cardinals ended up in Chicago, they moved to March of 1960. But at the end of 58, they wanted to play at Dyke Stadium, Northwestern University, and Hallis invoked an old, old agreement that absolutely no one in Chicago would hear of called the Madison Street Agreement. And that simply stated the Cardinals could not play north of Madison Street, which ran east-west in Chicago, and the Bears could not play south. With this agreement, Erp Bell, who was a commissioner at the time, ruled that now they'd have to support the Bears, and the Cardinals could not move to Northwestern. And some great help on that one because Upton Bell, the son of Burt Bell, was just very gracious with his time and gave me some insight. And the Pro Football Hall of Fame had the minutes from the meeting. Just again, the rivalry started right then, in 1920 or so, and went to when the Cardinals left. So there's plenty of activity sandwiched in between.

Darin Hayes
That's tremendous. You said that the Cardinals left in 1959. Is that what you said?

Joe Ziemba
1960 marks of 60. Yeah.

Darin Hayes
Okay, and that you said to Halas, I think you just said at the beginning of this conversation that Halas gave money to them to encourage them to leave.

Joe Ziemba
Yes. And it's been in the newspapers that there are a couple of things they were concerned about. One was that the new American Football League was getting involved in Chicago or stealing the Cardinals and moving them somewhere, possibly St. Louis, where the Cardinals were not making money. That's pretty much accepted. And so at least the newspapers at the time said, and more than one resource said, that George Halas gave the Cardinals $500,000 to assist them with moving expenses. That gave him the rights to all the television showings in Chicago; games were blacked out if one team was playing at home and the other was away. A goofy role, but it lasted for years and years. And that was primarily why the Cardinals left town, although the Halas financial incentive certainly helped them.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I mean, 1960, half a million dollars is a good chunk of change. That's probably very encouraging for a franchise to move. You know, it's peanuts today. That's probably what they pay the guy who launders the shirts nowadays in the NFL. But yeah, it's very interesting. So, Joe, you know, it is tremendous that you were able to come on here and talk about this, and I'm so glad that you were able to write this book and record this because your research is impeccable. And your storytelling is everybody loves it. Make sure folks listen to Joe's podcast. He's on a couple of times a month. You have a podcast.

Joe Ziemba
Right, yeah. Well, we're just talking a little bit about our network.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, what can you tell them about the podcast?

Joe Ziemba
Well, the podcast is called When Football Was Football. And what we talk about is any kind of old football in Chicago; it's the Bears and the Cardinals, but we've talked about a high school a couple of times and maybe a couple of college things. And some of the individuals you may not have heard about, we've talked about Shorty Ray a couple of weeks ago, who really revised the way officiating is done in the National Football League. This week's episode talks about Jack Glynn, who is one of the resources I had for this game. He was a 19-year-old general manager of the Cardinals back in 1919, a great story. His family had kept his documents for over a hundred years. In fact, his niece, I believe it would be, is a nun and a missionary in Bolivia. And she was the one who uncovered these documents after all these years. You know, and speaking of documents, before we go on, Darin, I wanna mention my personal thanks to John Kendall and the Pro Football Hall of Fame. A lot of what we talk about is based on the Dutch Sterneman papers. In the Sterneman papers, Sterneman was George Halas's partner from the 1920s until the early 30s. The family kept all the Bears' financial records at that time. That's what Sternemann did. So we know what the salaries were. And I talked earlier about Bronco Nogersky and Joe Savaldi, the contracts for different games, and even how much a mechanic in the North side of Chicago who was paid $4 a game plus a pass to go scout for the Bears back then. And so I was able to use a ton of stuff. Thanks again to John Kendall and the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which is probably, in my opinion, the greatest collection they have, which is the Sternemann papers.

Darin Hayes
Wow. You get to actually go into the Hall of Fame and use the research facility when you're doing research.

Joe Ziemba
for your book, correct? Yes, yes. The Hall of Fame has always been very receptive. I don't know why they let me in, but they do. And the sternum and papers came out for a couple of years. They were kind of off base. The reason why was that the Hall of Fame was categorizing everything. And so now they've all been put in boxes. There's a nice index of what is where, and it made it really easy. I was also able to make copies of the documents that were specific to my research. So John Kendall has been there every step of the way as an archivist at the Hall of Fame. And I just can't thank him enough. And a lot of other people helped as well. Chris Willis from NFL Films. You've always been encouraging. I mentioned Jeff Miller, Upton Bell, and John Steffenhagen, who's an expert on the Rochester Jeffersons. A lot of great folks have been able to help out with this research. So, I thank them publicly.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, no, I guess maybe we'll put you mentioning all those names. Maybe we should put a little bit of a plug-in for the PFRA, the Professional Football Research Association. We are going to be having a meeting in 2023 in Pittsburgh, where pro football started. George Bizika and the gang are organizing this great venture to take that down there. So, if folks, if you're interested in real professional football history and some great things, we had a big meeting last year in Canton at the Hall of Fame and some places around our Maslin and the city of Canton. But, you know, this Pittsburgh trip seems to be very intriguing as well, and it is full of football history going back to the La Trobe Athletic Clubs and things like that. So, I know they have some great guests lined up and some great events. If you're interested in that, you can contact us here at Pigskin Dispatch, which is pigskindispatch@gmail.com, or go to the PFRA website. And I believe it's professional football researchers dot org. I think I might have that off, but it's something like that. But yeah, we'd like to see you, and you will meet folks. Usually, Joe's there. I'm there. You know, he talked about Jeff Miller and possibly Chris Willis might be there. There are a lot of people who usually show up, including football historians and experts in the field. And it's just some great camaraderie. And you get to rub elbows with some really knowledgeable people about football.

Joe Ziemba
It is a great time. And again, all you gotta do is for me because I can't remember all the letters. I go P F R A, and it usually shows up, and the website is open to nonmembers as well. So, if you want to look around there, there is a member section that you have to remember, obviously, to take a look at. But we're expecting a great, great meeting next year. George, as you mentioned, and Darin always do a wonderful job of putting it together. And he's also the mastermind behind the book series that the PFRA has been putting out for the last few years.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, absolutely. Great. A lot of great resources. And when it's saying a membership fee, it's very inexpensive. I believe it's like $35, $40 a year. And I think the whole weekend, the three-day weekend, is like $75 if you remember next, next summer. It is so very affordable. You know, of course, your room and meals are separate. I think they do include one or two meals in there, too, for $75, but it is well worth the money. The history you get to see, experience, and learn about is especially phenomenal.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, it's something I've always enjoyed attending, and it's almost like Disneyland for football people who love their history. Every time you turn around and take breaks in the hallway, you are able to talk to folks who just have that passion and that love of pro football history. It's it's really exceptional.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Joe, I really appreciate you coming on here. Why don't we give the folks one more time the name of your book and where they can get it? And if you want to share any social media that you have

Joe Ziemba
Oh, thanks so much, Darin. Yeah, the book is called Bears versus Cardinals, the NFL's oldest rivalry, available from McFarland books or Amazon pride to be the two easiest places. I also have a Twitter account, which is called Cards Chicago, and a Facebook account for Chicago Cards; if you want to just look up Chicago Cards, there are over 12,000 people now who follow the Chicago Cardinals Facebook. Again, we take great pleasure in uncovering those types of stories that you may not see very often. And so we'd invite you to join us and continue our investigation, our history, and our enjoyment of old-time professional football.

Darin Hayes
Well, Joe Ziemba, you know, is a historian, podcaster, and author. We thank you once again for sharing your great knowledge and your stories and your time with us again tonight.

Joe Ziemba
And thank you so much, Darin, for all you're doing to protect and preserve the history of football. In fact and, your podcasts are amazing. I don't know how you do it, but congratulations, keep up the good work. And thank you so much for having me here.

Darin Hayes
Sure. I think people call it an illness. At least, that's what my wife calls it. Thanks, Joe.

Joe Ziemba
Thank you.