Football History

Fire up the grill and crank up the fight song, football fans! Today, July 8th, isn't just about summer sizzles, it's a touchdown for gridiron history! We're celebrating the birthdays of some legendary players, AND the momentous day in 1933 when the National Football League (NFL) officially awarded franchises to several iconic cities, including the Steel City itself, Pittsburgh! So, grab a cold one, settle in, and get ready for a history lesson that'll have you saying "Terrible Towels" and more!

It is also the birthday of our favorite toothless middle linebacker!

Mark your calendars, football fans! June 24th isn't just another summer day – it's a date etched into the gridiron's history books. Buckle up as we delve into the fascinating events that unfolded on this very day. We'll celebrate the birthdays of Hall of Famers who left their mark on the game, explore the origins of a few iconic NFL franchises, and uncover the pivotal moment that shaped the National Football League as we know it today. So, get ready for a touchdown-filled journey through football's past, all on June 24th!

While June 23rd might not be the most action-packed day for the NFL and college football, it does hold a place in the sport's rich history. This article delves into the events, both big and small, that transpired on this date. From professional league news to the evolution of the game itself, we'll explore the stories behind June 23rd's mark on American football. So, even though the stadiums might be silent on this day, there's still something interesting to learn for any true football fan.

Hold on a second, isn't July 4th for fireworks and celebrations? Well, this year, let's light a different kind of fire – the fire of pigskin passion! Because on July 7th, we celebrate not just the birth of our nation, but the birthdays of some gridiron greats, and a legendary athlete who dominated both the gridiron and the Olympic track. So, dust off your favorite jersey, crank up the fight song, and get ready for a touchdown-worthy history lesson!

June 20th holds a special place in the annals of gridiron history. From rule changes that revolutionized the game to franchise milestones, this date has witnessed moments that continue to shape the sport we love today. Let's take a pigskin pilgrimage through time and explore the historic events that unfolded on this summer day.

As we do every day, the shared history of the game of American football is presented for your enjoyment.

As we creep ever so closer to the start of football season, are you aware of the history that has been made on this day of July 29?

Join us as we discuss a judge's decision in the USFL versus NFL trial, how innovators shoulder the load of our football memories for today and many more Hall of Fame Legendary stories.

Today, July 31st, is packed with gridiron greatness! From legendary players to pivotal moments, we've got a touchdown's worth of facts and stories.

Ready to dive into the playbook of the past? Check out our latest post and celebrate the heroes who shaped the game we love!

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Our passion for preserving football history has gone to a new level, the trivia question. For the past three weeks we have challenged you with a series of YouTube Shorts puzzles on gridiron history.

In this edition we take it up a notch bay adding another format of a "three-fer." Buckle up that chinstrap and dive head first into this array of trivia questions that take less than a minute, unless you dare hit pause.

Enjoy this challenge to your football brain. We have three downs of trivia in this special format.

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The video covers an interview with Ken Crippen, the founder of the Football Learning Academy, an online school teaching pro football history. The academy aims to provide historical context to today's game by educating about the origins, players, and early days of football. It also serves as a platform to raise funds and support retired players in need, especially older players struggling with medical bills.

Crippen discusses the academy's classes, featuring interviews with legendary figures like coaches, broadcasters, executives, and players from different eras. He highlights a recent class on historical scouting reports, where he and a colleague analyze film and grade players, focusing on older candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The class includes biographies, honors, statistics, and interviews with players discussing position-specific skills across different eras. Crippen emphasizes the importance of preserving firsthand accounts and providing information to aid the Hall of Fame's senior selection committee.

Ken and his team just launched a new class at the Football Learning Academy: Historical Scouting Reports. This class has:

-Video interviews with players talking about how to play their positions during their eras

-Historical scouting reports of players going back to the 1920s

-Profiles of potential contributors for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

-Transcript of Chat with KenCrippen FLA Historical Data

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darren Hayes at pigskin -dispatch .com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your report of our positive football history. And welcome to another great edition where we get to visit with one of our friends, a football historian, the leader and founder of the Football Learning Academy, Ken Crippen. Ken, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Ken Crippen
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Darin Hayes
Ken, you have a lot of things going on at the Football Learning Academy. We really haven't touched base with you in probably probably almost a year now. And I know you have so many exciting things going on. And you have one thing in particular you want to talk about today. But won't you give us a general overview of what the Football Learning Academy is and some of the happenings you got going?

Ken Crippen
All right. The Football Learning Academy is an online school teaching pro football history. And what we're trying to do is to put today's game into historical context by teaching about where the game came from, the people who played the game, especially in the earlier days. And then second to that is that we have a platform to be able to help retired players in need. So, you know, we know that players are struggling to pay their medical bills, especially the older players. They're not making the millions of dollars like a lot of players are today. So I want to be able to use this platform to raise money to be able to help those players. So portion of all the proceeds generated at the football learning academy go to help those retired players that need it the most.

Darin Hayes
Uh, that is definitely a worthy cause. And, uh, we were so great, glad grateful that you were doing that. And I'm sure the players themselves that are receiving the benefits of it are as well, and it seems like you have some great participation because you have so many former players and former, uh, people that were involved in pro football, uh, aiding you and coming in and doing classes and, uh, being guests, uh, on both the, your, your lessons and on your podcast that, uh, it seems very beneficial all the way around.

Ken Crippen
Yeah, I mean, if you take a look at some of the classes, I mean, we've got an interview with coach Don Shula that I did, uh, obviously prior to his passing, um, Ken Riley, same thing. Uh, we have an interview with him, uh, legendary broadcaster, Leslie Visser. Uh, we've got classes with exclusive interviews with Marlon Brisco and Dan Rooney. Uh, you move over to the podcast, several hall of famers, John Hannah, you've got Brian Erlocker, Ron mix was released this week. Uh, you've got other well -known people, Michael Lombardi, former NFL scout and executive, um, Amy Trask, former NFL CEO, head coach Mark Trestman, uh, offensive lineman, Richard, uh, Richmond web. Uh, and then coming up, we've got an episode with ESPN's Chris Berman. So there's a lot of, uh, a lot of fascinating stuff there.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. You got the whole gambit there. You've got the, the TV talking head celebrities like Berman and, and Visser and you're going to, you know, coach Shula and John Hannah and Dan Rooney, you know, some of the executives and Michael Lombardi, that is really a well -rounded thing with all the players and coaches and a broadcaster. So very well done. And if you can't get some great insight from those folks, I don't know who you can. So great job. A lot of knowledge there. Yeah. Most definitely. But you approached me here not too long ago and you have something really exciting going on, some new classes that you have going on that you wanted to talk about today. So why don't you fill us in on that.

Ken Crippen
All right. The most recent class that we released is on historical pro football, scattering reports. So a colleague of mine, Matt Rieser and I, we went back and we studied film. This is something we started years ago. And what we would do is grade some of these players in each game and then all, you know, giving them an overall grade. So what we wanted to do is focus on some of the older players, especially ones where their names were coming up for the pro football hall of fame and the seniors. Pool. We had Mick Tinglehoff, Dick Barwegan, um, a bunch of other people. So there was a lot there that, um, we really wanted to be able to let people know about these players. A lot of people have never seen them play. Um, so anything that we can do to try to help people. And again, you know, back to our mission of educating people, we wanted to be able to do that, but then also have a resource for the senior selection committee to be able to see this information. I mean, a lot of them don't have the time to go through and, and study the film and things like that. So we're doing that work for them. So, uh, since, you know, we had some of those original scouting reports come out. I've gone through, I've added biographies, uh, the honors that they've had testimonial statistics. Um, but another thing that's interesting that I've adding, uh, been adding to this class is that I am interviewing a lot of these players and talking about the skills necessary to play their position within their particular era. So for example, Ron mix, as I'd mentioned before, Hall of Famer, he's talking about offensive line play, I've got another guy on there, Greg Thomas. He was the first African American starting quarterback for the university of Arkansas, he's talking about quarterback play. And I'm going to continue to add more scattering reports, add more videos, things like that on these particular players and how to play these positions, especially talking to players in different eras. So if you got somebody playing into fifties, somebody in the sixties, somebody in the seventies, et cetera. Now you can see how things evolved for that particular position by talking to the players that actually played that position. So it's a pretty interesting class. And, uh, I think a lot of people will be able to get something out of it.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, that's brilliant going to the different areas because it's almost, uh, if you look at games, like in the forties and fifties, they're a much different game. You know, the basics are there for football, but the way it's played in the strategies and blocking schemes and everything else are so much different than, uh, they are today and even, even in the seventies today. So that's great to get the perspective of the guys that were actually in the trenches and, and taking the hits to give that perspective. So you're very interesting.

Ken Crippen
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that, you know, there's a lot that can be learned from that, especially when you're getting the firsthand accounts, because not only are you talking about the schemes, but we also go into players, you know, when I was talking with Ron mix, I was talking about playing against Deacon Jones, I mean, one of the greatest of all time. So you talk about, you know, the different techniques, the people that they struggled against, the people that they were successful against, why they were successful against them, why they struggled against them. There's a lot that you can pull out of that. And so being able to record these firsthand accounts, I think is definitely going to be beneficial, especially as we continue to progress in time.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, especially, you know, unfortunately, we're losing so many of these legends of the game seems like on a daily basis, you know, seems like every day you pick up the paper, you look on the Internet, you lose another star. So preserving the legacy of these folks and getting them recorded, even them talking about some other players that they played against or played with, like you said, is a very valuable resource. So very well done on that. Appreciate it. Yeah. Now, you can you said a little bit the you're providing information with the information that you're putting on this new project you got going on for the Senior Selection Committee. Now, on on average, what's the Hall of Fame? How many of the seniors are they trying to get in each year? Is there a certain numbers that sort of hit or miss?

Ken Crippen
It's been changing right now. You could have a maximum of three, but that's only been in place for a couple of years now. I think that expires maybe next year where they evaluate and see if they're going to still try to have a maximum of three every year or whether it's going to be going backwards or maybe it goes only two or one per year. So as of right now, it's three.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Cause it seems like there's a tremendous amount, especially the early players, the first, uh, 20, 30 years of the NFL that probably are deserving to be in there, uh, but didn't really have the opportunity because the NFL or the pro football hall of fam, sorry, didn't start until the early 1960s. So some of these guys were long forgotten. Uh, and now with the resurgence of their information because of the internet, uh, football learning academy, PFRA and, and others, you know, and all the books that are coming out now, we have a lot more information, probably a better view of these folks now, uh, some 60 years later than they did in the early 60s. So I think it's invaluable that I'm glad that they're trying to put some more in, and I know they had sort of a bigger number, a hundredth anniversary, uh, of, uh, the NFL and then 2020, uh, but I, I know it's sort of dwindled down from, so, so three is sort of the targets still.

Ken Crippen
As of right now, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, they're don't see, it doesn't seem to be much interest in the older players. It's more of the more recent players within the senior pool that they're focusing on. So we may have trouble getting in some of those deserving people from the earlier days. It really comes down to the selection committee. If they're showing no interest in doing that, then you're not going to get any of those players in. Thanks for watching!

Darin Hayes
Now the selection committee, as far as I know, the folks that are in are mostly journalists. Is that true? Or is there still some executives? I think there

Ken Crippen
There are still a few executives, there may be a few former players, but that's on the overall committee itself. The actual seniors committee, I think is pretty much made up of strictly media members. So whether they're journalists, whether they're TV, whatever, it's mainly going to be journalists. And if you look at the overall committee, the bulk of them are going to be journalists.

Darin Hayes
And probably just human nature, the people that they know the most about are the people that they saw play, just like you or I or any of the listeners or viewers would say, you know, you know, you saw, you know, players, you know, like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady play, but that was some outstanding play by this player. So very difficult journey for these guys, especially in early football.

Ken Crippen
But I think, you know, you can also look at it too is that, you know, the media members of today saying we're the most qualified to be able to determine who's in the hall of fame, who was the best because we watched them play. But yet you bring up the media members of the day who watched those players and the hall of famers that have testimonials for those players and things like that. Why aren't they listening to them? I mean, wouldn't their opinions be just as valid. So if you've got somebody that is consistently making all pros who's consistently getting honors who's consistently. You get testimonials saying that they're the best player that they played against and these are hall of famers that are saying this to me you should be listening to that and not just saying well you know I know more because I saw these most recent players play. Listen to what the media members of the day said about those players, because if the media is the one that is the best judge of who's a Hall of Famer and who isn't. How about we listen to those media members.

Darin Hayes
Great, great point, but it's hard to have a voice for those folks that aren't around anymore, but we, but we have their word in print and it's, uh, I guess it's a tough methodology for folks like us as frustrating for us historians to sit there and say, where we don't really don't have a voice into it in the media does. So I understand the frustration, uh, but I also understand the dilemma that the NFL and the hall of fame, uh, sort of have on their plate there. So hopefully we can come to some, uh, resolution to, to help them out here and doing things like you're doing with these, uh, having these, uh, guides for them to look at is definitely a great step.

Ken Crippen
Yeah, I think so. It's just any information that we can get out there about these players is only going to be beneficial. So, you know, we shouldn't be relying on, you know, whose kid puts together the best PR campaign for their, their parent. I mean, that shouldn't be what determines who goes into the Hall of Fame, which should be based on what did that person do on the field. And if we can get more and more information out there about that, then that's what we should be focusing on.

Darin Hayes
So what do you, what in your opinion would be the best way to, to get that information, uh, you know, is there, is there a particular voice that should be heard on, on these panels and the selection committees that, uh, you know, or a genre of people that, that aren't represented right now that would help the selection committee.

Ken Crippen
I mean, I would think historians, I mean, right now there are no historians on there outside of any media member that looks at the history of the game, but you know, how much of that is happening? You have historians that reach out to the selection committee, you know, there's varying degrees of responses. Some say, Hey, this is great information. Others like, yeah, don't care. So it really comes down to the people that are on the selection committee, making sure that they truly evaluate all of the qualified candidates and not just the ones that, you know, they covered or just the ones that were nice to them or something like that. They need to go in there and say, who is the best player that needs to go in? And that's what they should be basing it on. And whether you're going to historians, whether you're doing research on your own, whatever the case may be, something needs to be done because a lot of these guys, like you had said earlier, they deserve to be in there, but they're being ignored because they played too long ago. Committee members don't know anything about them. Whatever the case may be, something needs to change.

Darin Hayes
Now, I think and maybe this is just a biased look at it from my aspect and folks like yourself because, you know, us being PFRA members in the Hall of the Very Good. But it seems recently, you know, I'm sitting here thinking of the Ken Riley seniors of the world that are getting in recently and some others that the Hall of the Very Good seems to be almost like a stepping stone for some of these senior players to get elevated to, you know, be a pro football Hall of Famer. And I think there, you know, maybe like I said, it's a biased opinion of mine to say that there's the influence of that, but there's definitely a correlation if you look at, especially the last five or six years, players that have been elected in the Hall of the Very Good of the PFRA sort of in the next couple of years seem to be elevated, at least a certain number of them.

Ken Crippen
Yeah, I mean, you know, they definitely, you know, gain more attention. When you have a group of historians like the BFRA and they put out something saying, hey, you know, these players are deserving of recognition, then maybe people will go back and take a look at their careers. And I'm doing something similar at the FLA, where I'm putting together these scouting reports so that people can get information on these players. And with everything going on, the BFRA, the FLA, any other historian that's out there, if you talk about these players and you show the cases of why they belong, you would hope that at that point, the committee is going to take a look at it and say, hey, you know, I guess they're right. Maybe this person does deserve to be considered.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's, I think that's a great point. That's sort of where I was going to, you know, you, you, your, your organization, the PFRA, uh, some of the multiple books that are, are coming out, you know, some great books like Chris Willis, just putting out a book on the 60 minute men of the NFL, where, like you said, there's a lot of player, uh, in his thing, he goes and views, uh, I think it's 40 some players, uh, that were pre -world war two and some, some of them are already in a hall of fame, but all of them have, um, sort of passages from players and coaches of that era that would say, Hey, this guy was outstanding as a pun or, you know, Hey, I couldn't block this guy. You get exactly what you're saying in your interviews that you've done with players recently and over the years, uh, and what you're doing in the FLA. Uh, but so these books and the PFRA and the FLA sort of, you know, bringing attention to these players is such a great thing and, uh, you know, that maybe it'll help some of these selectors to have a better opinion of them to, to get some of these guys in, it's definitely deserve it.

Ken Crippen
Yeah. And you take a look, I mean, I put together a couple of articles, reimagining some of the old decade teams, because you look at like the 1920s, 1930s, especially, but even some of the other old decade teams. And you're kind of scratching your head as far as how some of these players actually made the old decade team, but yet they're being used as reasons why they should be in the hall of fame. I mean, Cecil Isbell is a perfect example. He's on the 1930s old decade team. He played two years in the 1930s and those years were average. He was, he excelled 40, 41, 42, but in the thirties, he wasn't that great. He was an average quarterback at that time. But because the 1940s team was so stacked, there was no way he was going to be able to make it. So they toss him on the 1930s team. Why he didn't earn it. And so, you know, all of this type of information, yeah, somebody makes an old decade team, but really when you take a look at it, should they be on that old decade team, if you're going to use it as part of their case, make sure that it was actually deserving. And, you know, that's something else that I want to be able to do too, is to, to really talk about this. I know, you know, some people discount all decade teams just because, oh, it's a random time. Well, if their career doesn't naturally fit within the 1920 to 1929 timeframe, for example, if their career was 1925 to 1935, you know, they may not make either of the old decade teams, but they had an excellent career. Yeah, it's something, but it's a data point and all data points, as long as they're legitimate data, then that should all be considered. And if they didn't make it, then you can say, okay, well, why didn't they make one of those old decade teams? Because their career spanned a different time period, but still, I think you can go in there and you can take a look. If somebody had an extended career, they should have enough time within one of these old decade teams to have made a difference and to have made, you know, a spot on one of those teams. So regardless of when your career started, when your career ended, I would think that if you were Hall of Fame caliber, you would be on one of those old decade teams, at least, you know, at some point within your career.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, no, I mean, the all decade teams are definitely something that's fairly consistent and some of them are retroactive, but, uh, I mean, all pro selections and pro bowl or all star selections, you know, they're called all star before they were pro bowls, uh, and in the AFL and that, but are those some of the other data points that you think are considerations? Cause it's definitely, it's data that, uh, can drive, uh, to prove a point that, you know, players were beyond the average player. You know, in the league at their, their particular point in time.

Ken Crippen
Yeah. And again, you know, it goes into context. Somebody can make a Pro Bowl, but were they selected first for the Pro Bowl? Or is it that the five guys ahead of them bowed out of it because of injuries or whatever else they couldn't make it? And so now they made the Pro Bowl. Well, that should be part of the data that goes along with it. Were they the first person selected, second person selected or the sixth or seventh person selected that needs to go into it? And, you know, it also can't be that you use all pros and Pro Bowls for one player saying that, OK, this is the reason why they belong in there and then completely ignore it for another player because they don't have all of those honors. If it's something that's important, then it should be consistent across the board. I mean, you know, you brought up Ken Riley earlier. He wasn't making the Pro Bowls. He wasn't making all pros, things like that. It honors didn't matter. They strictly went off of the number of interceptions that he accumulated over his career. And that's how he got inducted. But yet you have somebody else and, you know, they'll say, well, I'm going to pick player X over player Y because they have more Pro Bowls. Well, now, if you've got somebody else that doesn't have any Pro Bowls, then why are you now suddenly saying, well, this person is a Hall of Famer, even though nobody else picked him for any of these these teams? I just want to see more consistency in those types of things. Don't say this is important for one player, but it's irrelevant for another player. Be consistent.

Darin Hayes
Okay, great points. So let's get into maybe if you could tell us what's some of the data that you're putting into your player profiles that you're, to represent these players to give the selection clemity some some information to use.

Ken Crippen
Well, each position has different skills associated with that particular position. Like, you know, say you're looking at a quarterback, you're going to, obviously leadership is something that's hard to quantify. That's something that, you know, you're talking to teammates, you're talking to coaches, you're talking to opposition, things like that, but there's still quantifiable things that you can look at. You know, you look at, you know, well, how quick was their release? What's their arm speed? You know, how tight is the spiral on the ball? How much ball spin that they have? What's the footwork look like? Same with other positions. So you go to a wide receiver position. You want to see how well do they run their routes? How well, well, are they able to break away from defenders and get separation? What kind of speed are they showing? You know, is it straight ahead speed or are they able to, to make those cuts? How well do they make those cuts? You know, planning that foot and moving in a different direction. There's a lot of those things that you can quantify. And as you're going through and watching this film, you can see exactly how well they're performing and be able to grade it accordingly. But then also you have to take into account what error they're in different errors, things were done differently. So you have to make sure that you're taking that into account when you're going through and evaluating these players, you want to make sure that you're grading them according to the way the game was played at that particular time. And that adds another wrinkle to obviously how you put together these reports, but it's something that is important that when you're giving somebody a grade for their particular position, for their particular era, you got to make sure that you're going to be able to consistently be able to look at that grade versus the grade of somebody else at that same position that may have played in a different era. So those are the types of things that we look at. Like I said, each one has different sets of criteria. All of that is spelled out within the reports that we have. You have grades, overall grades for each of those skill sets and then overall performance grades that they have for each game, as well as for their entire career. And then when we're looking at it to the score that we come up with the overall grade, that's going to get stronger the more games we watch. So say, for example, you've got somebody where you watch 30 games, another one where you watch 40 games. If they both have the same score, I'm always going to skew toward the person where we watched more game film, because that means they kept it at that level for a longer period of time. And so when you're looking at our rankings by scores, anything that's tied as far as the score is concerned, we always skew it toward the one where we've watched more game film than the other players.

Darin Hayes
outstanding. I like that the volume of work sort of skews the score to their favor. So that's, it's a great, great thing. Now, if I would, let's say we have some folks watching right now that are on the selection committee, and we could, and who would if they came to you and said, Hey, Ken, you know, we want to come and look at some of these scores, we're trying to look for some seniors to be selected for the next round of ballots here. Who would you recommend that they look at some maybe some folks that aren't getting the attention in the media? That do you think that have some great scores that these folks ought to be looking at considering?

Ken Crippen
I mean, to me, you know, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I picked Lavvie Dilweg and Al Wister is my top two players, especially of the older players. We've got more game film of Wister than we do of Dilweg, but we're still able to go through and see how Dilweg played. But then, as I was mentioning before, we're talking about, okay, what are the testimonials? What are the other media members saying about them? What are historians saying about them? People that watch them play. People were there at the time. And you look at someone like a Laverne Dilweg and it's just inexplicable to me how he can't become a finalist, you know, he, you'll see them in the, in the, um, centennial class where he was part of the top 20, but then never made it beyond that. And then, you know, it was never really been touched since then Al Wister, he's getting close, but he's not making it. These are guys who dominated their position. I mean, Dilweg was the second-best end in the pre-modern era. If you're number two behind one of the greatest of all time in Don Hudson, how can you not be considered? You have somebody that, you know, Ken Riley, you know, we brought his name up earlier, so I don't want to keep picking on him, but doesn't have the all pros, doesn't have the Pro Bowls or anything like that. They used interceptions while he had 64 interceptions in his career. He never led the league in interceptions. He was top five once in interceptions. If you're a Hall of Famer, you only make top five and interceptions once in a 16 year career. There are times he didn't even lead his own team in interceptions, but yet that was the criteria for him getting in. Laverne Dilweg had 27 interceptions from a defensive end position. You look at the other pre -modern era ends that are in the Hall of Fame. They all have single digits in interceptions. Dilweg had 27. The only other end that had more was Hutson, but he played safety. So you're going to have more opportunities. You're going to be able to have more interceptions, and it's only three more than Dilweg had. He led, you know, Dilweg led the league in yards, touchdowns. That's what an end does, but you look at it and you know, eight -time All -Pro, six -time consecutive consensus All -Pro, four -time consecutive unanimous All -Pro, all -decade team. The media members of the day said he was by far the best end of his time, but yet you look at the media members today and they're like, yeah, it doesn't matter.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Amazing. Especially when you're playing at the same time as Hutson.

Ken Crippen
So basically the reason why people don't know Dilweg's name as much is because Hutson came after him.

Darin Hayes
Oh, okay, they weren't contemporaries of each other.

Ken Crippen
No, it was basically as soon as Dilweg's career ended, that's when Hutson started. So they didn't even overlap by one year.

Darin Hayes
Oh geez. Well, I'm glad that, uh, you know, but it's shining some light on, on players like Dilweg and Wistert and some of the others to maybe, you know, bring more attention to them and hopefully some, some, uh, you know, random parts like we're doing now. And, uh, some of the books that are out PFRA and some of the other organizations we talked about, uh, maybe we get, uh, things go in here, get some momentum on social media and that and, uh, get it out into public perception. And that always helps too, with, uh, helping the selectors to, to be influenced a little bit. So, so we keep up that great work on that. Now, so what are, uh, some of the other, uh, now you're, you're looking at all different eras, I assume when you're, you're putting these things together. So it's not just these, these early, you know, single platoon players, but you're looking at some of the more modern players, like from the last 60, 70 years as well.

Ken Crippen
I mean, I've done some research on that, um, essentially what it is is when Matt Rieser and I started working on this, we said, okay, we want people have had the bulk of their careers prior to 1970. And that's what our focus was now, because, you know, it's been a few years since then I'm going to extend it out beyond that. So people playing in the seventies as well. Um, but my focus is I want people to know about these older players. That's what's important to me. And that's the information I want to get out there.

Darin Hayes
Awesome. I love the, uh, the, what you're doing. I love the, the, uh, line that you're taking to do that because it's, there's a lot of information out there with, like we said, the video and everything of the more modern players, you know, since the seventies, but some of these older guys, they just didn't, there wasn't the ESPNs and the internet that, that we have in this era to look at them. So it's great to get that perception from them. So what else do you have going on at the FLA that, uh, you know, what are some of the other courses you have? I know you glanced upon a couple of them, but, uh, but if somebody wants to come in and get an education at the FLA, what can they expect?

Ken Crippen
Well, there's a bunch of different courses that we have. So you can either look at interviews that we have with individual people. But if you're looking for classes themselves, the scattering reports class that we were talking about, but, you know, we've got classes on the first pro players, excuse me, first pro players, first, uh, forward pass and pro football history, you know, try to trace down the lineage of that, um, talking about new class that I'm working on now is on the Buffalo bills of the all America football conference. So we try to have varying degrees of things that we talk about in various eras, but also got some other instructors that are there. Josie Imba, who, you know, a very noted historian and author, um, does a lot of work on old Chicago Cardinals. Uh, so he's got classes there. Jeff Miller, a Buffalo bills historian, a Buffalo football historian. So he's got a class on the Buffalo Americans of the 1920s. So there's a lot of stuff that's there. Um, so it really depends on what you're interested in. Chances are you're going to find something there that, you know, peaks your interest and makes you want to watch.

Darin Hayes
All right, and what's the best place to go if you want to if you want to give maybe the the URL of of it and we'll repeat it in the show notes of this but go ahead and call out in your in your social media.

Ken Crippen
Yeah. I mean, any of the classes, any of the podcasts that we have, we have links on our website. You've got all our social media channels. So I would say the best place to go is www .football -learning -academy .com. And you'll pretty much find everything right at that location.

Darin Hayes
Okay. And you folks that are looking at this on YouTube, you just look over Ken's shoulder there and he's got all the information spelled out right on his, uh, virtual back screen there too. So, but we'll, we, for you folks that are on the podcast, we will put it into show notes, uh, get you hooked up to Ken and, uh, get educated and learn about these great players, these great teams from the past at the FLA. Ken, we really appreciate you coming on and doing this and really appreciate you preserving these greats of football and both the players, the coaches, the, the people associated with it, the broadcasters and, uh, you know, everybody that's contributed to football and the teams and the games themselves. So thank you for doing that.

Ken Crippen
Well, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

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Welcome to today's interview with Chris Willis, a seasoned sports historian and the author of the compelling new book, "The NFL's 60 Minute Men." This book delves deep into the remarkable stories of those unsung heroes who have played every minute of every game in the NFL, showcasing their resilience, endurance, and pivotal roles in shaping the outcomes of matches. Chris Willis, known for his meticulous research and passion for football history, takes us on a journey through decades of NFL seasons, uncovering the grit and determination of these players who embody the essence of football's toughness and commitment. Join us as we explore the inspiration behind "The NFL's 60 Minute Men" and gain insights into the fascinating world of NFL history from the perspective of its most dedicated warriors.

You can order a copy of Chris Willis' The NFL's 60 Minute Men book at the Publisher McFarland.com website or on Amazon The NFL's 60-Minute Men.

-Chris Willis 60 Minute Men Interview Transcript

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And welcome to another edition where we get to talk to an author about a great book on pro football history. And this is going back all the way to the beginning of the NFL and talking about some of these great early players. We have Chris Willis of NFL Films joining us, who's been on more than a few times to talk about some of his books. He's putting out a book quite a bit, and we're really enjoying him. Chris, welcome back to the Pigpen.

Chris Willis
It's awesome to be here, Darin, especially to be able to talk about these early players. So, thanks for having me.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, certainly. Now, the title of Chris's latest book is The NFL's 60 Minutemen: All-time Greats of the Two-way Player Era 1920 to 1945. Chris, that's a big topic. And these are some guys that maybe our modern ears aren't used to hearing their names. Maybe we've heard one or two of them because there are some big names in there. But there are many guys in there that most folks have not heard. What was your inspiration for writing a book like this?

Chris Willis
Uh, that's a good question. Um, I think the first sort of momentum was in 2019 when the NFL celebrated its 100th season, you know, they had the all-time team, which I was a part of the, of the voting. Uh, and then I did some rankings for the pPro Football Journal John Turney's site. And so I had some feeling of who, you know, who some of the best players were, the most significant players. Um, but I felt all the time that they don't get as much recognition as, you know, some of them sort of modern players. I mean, um, even, even if you're a casual fan, you might know who Joe's name is, Jim Brown, you know, uh, you know, let alone the paintings and the Tom Brady's like, there is a certain generation that you still might know. And then really the early years, it might be just, you know, Jim Thorpe and Red Grange, and that's it like, well, now anyway, here's 25 years of history, especially the first, you know, two and a half decades of great play by many more players than, uh, just a handful of names that some people know. So, uh, so I think when you combine, you know, that a couple of years ago, you know, with trying to promote and trying to get these players names, maybe out there a little bit more, that's what was the inspiration of, of putting the book together.

Darin Hayes
And it's a great timeline that you choose, you know, ending at 1945, which, you know, we've talked about with other guests, and I believe a premium talk with you about it before because it's sort of that World War Two era sort of broke that the single platoon system because there was a lot more talent out there. There was, you know, some they're having some trouble having some guys play, you know, having players during the war and everything. So I changed into that. What we know today is that we have specialists, offense, defense, and special teams. And of a single platoon. That's why the title, I assume, is 60 Minute Men.

Chris Willis
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's like the first 25 years in the NFL, you know, from 20 to 45. And that was a real key point for me, you know, was, I wanted to evaluate these players, who, they knew all the players played both ways, they played 60 minutes, you know, so some of the first questions I get when I say, Oh, this is the book title, and they think, Oh, so Chuck Bennerik, well, Chuck Bennerik, although it's a great feat, was the last to go 60 minutes, you know, but he did not play against players, you know, consistently going 60 minutes, you know, so, so some of those players that were sort of near the war years, or at the end of the World War Two, you know, I just cut it off there, just to say, Okay, I know all these players all went 60 minutes, you know, they played offense, defense, special teams. And so that's where that sort of 25-year era, you know, to me, is the two-way era in the NFL.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, sort of the layout of the book; I mean, you have it really interesting. You talk about, you know, you rank the players and you have a top 45 where you go into some great detail on tell some stories. You have a lot of excerpts of players that were contemporary that played against and with some of these guys that really had some great insight to them, so you can't get much better than that. And then you have a list that takes it up to 100 after that, like the 46 through 100. So why don't you maybe tell us how you determined the ranking and who to put on the list?

Chris Willis
Yeah, so the first goal I said came out was, well, what year am I starting with? What year am I ending with? So we found that 1929 to 45. So I was a first. And then it was, you know, roughly eight, I think it was like eight or nine, you know, sort of criteria is that, that I would look into, they all played a part, none of them was weighed higher than any other. So it was, you know, all-time teams. And it was a big thing, you know, where I was trying to find as many all-time teams from players and coaches and executives and sports from that era, you know, so because then that tells me who they thought was the best. And you take that into consideration, like, you know, you know, did the coach coach him or did the player play, you know, a lot, a lot of guys are going to pick their teammates and buddies. But when you start seeing names of opponents, you know, that gave you a little bit more sense of who people might have thought was great. So you had oral histories, you had win and loss records, you had championships, you know, other honors, you know, whether it's all pro teams, whether they were on, you know, a ring of honor or teams Hall of Fame, you know, so all those criteria were meshed into one evaluation, you know, so and I sort of went through that and to say, Okay, you know, who has the best resumes, you know, and then I started ranking them that way, you know, so it wasn't just like, Oh, you know, you had to be in the Hall of Fame. No, I believe I have almost a dozen players who aren't in the Hall of Fame in that 45. And then some of, you know, like, if I say, Oh, who's number 100? Well, Jim Thorpe is number 100. And you people might say, well, you're crazy, Chris. Well, you know, Thorpe's best years were before the NFL was founded. 1920 was really his only productive year, and you can maybe say 21 a little bit. But his ooh rang Indians years, and you know, the one game with the New York Giants and in the car, like, he was not an elite player at that time. Now, it was 1915. Yes, you know, and leading up. But so people might be surprised, well, Jim Thorpe 100. And who's in the top 50. So, but that was like the, you know, fun part of it, which is just, okay, let's evaluate everybody. Like I said, if I could have written 100 full bios, but then it would have been like, you know, six 700 pages, I don't know. Besides us, you know, who would maybe want to read a 700-page book about 100 of two-way players, but McFarland was great, the publisher, and you know, be able to do 45 full, you know, bios and to be able to talk, and I wanted it to be more not like a Wikipedia page. That's why I wanted to write a little bit of fuller bios. Because it's just one of like, oh, that's, I can get that off Wikipedia or pro football reference. Now I wanted it to be a little more detail. And oral histories and testimonials was a huge part of it. That was one of my first goals to try to find players talking about another player; you know, I can write what I think makes, you know, Red Grange grade or Mel Hine or Don Hudson. But I wanted to hear it from other players, coaches, executives, you know, owners, sports writers who, you know, okay, this is what made, you know, you know, Dutch Clark grade, this is what made, you know, Patty Driscoll grade. And it came from them instead of me just reverberating, maybe what I think, or what's in Wikipedia, Wikipedia or your profile bar reference, you know, because I think it could be misleading stats, some of the scoring, like you had to dig deep in it, you know, and say, okay, I think one perfect example was 1929 with Ernie Nevers. And Ernie Nevers is great. You know, he's up there, pretty high. And, but his 29 years included the game where he scored six touchdowns, he scored 40 points, and you're like, oh, wow, you know, the guy scored 12 touchdowns. Well, the majority of those touchdowns came against the three worst teams in the NFL, you know, you know, the six against the Bears, then there was like three against Dayton, three against Brooklyn, you know, so like, nine of his 12 came against like some of the worst teams, where the other the better teams sort of shut him out. So you got to take it, you know, like I said, you got to, you know, dig a little deep to maybe find, okay, what actually happened where now, we can watch it, we go online, you got tons of stats, you know, and all the time, and you can know that, okay, this guy has had a great year, you know, so, so that did make the fun part of it.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. I mean, I'm, I've loved some, some of the comments that you said on the players, uh, the contemporaries that were playing against them, some of the best ones were the linemen, linemen against linemen, and just some of, you know, Hey, this was the toughest son of a gun I had to go up against in my years of football. And just, you know, just some of the comments like that, that, you know, using some of the, the, the chat of the day. Cause I assume these are probably like some of these interviews are probably like in the fifties and sixties when these guys were, you know, out of football, but, uh, you know, still seasoned and, uh, you know, talk, still talking and reminiscing. So I thought that was, that was great, but I, I love the consistency of your format on those first 45. And maybe you could explain to the listeners and viewers about that, what they can enjoy when they get a copy of the book.

Chris Willis
Yeah, like I mentioned, you know, you're following your criteria, so you want to touch on all that. And I mentioned before, like, oral histories and testimonials were a big key of finding, you know, like I said, as much as they're great players, sometimes I found, you know, some player who played for like two years, three years, you know, which was the norm, you know, average playing was three years, who did talk about, you know, some of these other guys, you know, or some of they only play three years, well, they might have played, you know, four games against, you know, you know, some of these great players, and they can give you a testimonial. Yeah, he was, he was that good. So, and footage is another thing, you know, like, I try to find as much game footage and game film. And because that's, like you said, the linemen, it was a running game, it was a lineman game, you know, you know, so you wanted to see a little bit more of some of those guys that are just popping up on all pro teams, or you just assume is in the Hall of Fame, like, oh, you know, and the perfect example is, I mean, his name's been bounced around. It's Ox Emerson, like, there's, you know, there's a little bit of footage of him, you watch him, well, he was really good, you know, and, and that's why he made all those all pros. And, and you look at him, he's like, well, why isn't he in the Hall of Fame? You know, because he's, he's got all the check marks on his resume, you know, whether it's, you know, played for a championship team, you know, they finished high and rushing for four or five straight years, you know, you know, that Dutch Clark and good personnel, and all these backs that made all pro, well, somebody had to block for him, you know, so, so he gets lost a little bit. But when you look at these things, and you look at the, especially the linemen versus linemen, like, well, there's a reason why, you know, Bronco Nagurski had him on his all-time team, Red Grange had him on, it was like, he must be a little better than that, if, if Red and Bronco are saying, you know, if I had to field a team, I'm going to take Ox Amherst as one of my guards. So, so that's part of, you know, the explanation, you know, the chapters and the, like I said, the bios being flashed. And then, you know, there's, there's some good stories, you know, some of them have been heard if you but some of them haven't been so I tried to find, you know, some stuff that also made it, you know, enjoyable to read and then like, okay, well, I didn't, that's a great story of the 20s and 30s and playing 60 minutes, you know, so that was that's the title of the book. So I wanted to get that impression of these guys playing both ways. Some of them said, Oh, I love playing offense better than defense. Some of them just said, Oh, I just love the hit. So, you know, stuff like that. So it was enjoyable to try to find that type of research.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, the consistency of each of those first 45, you sort of have the reader, you know, me as a reader, you sort of have me dip my toes in the water a little bit, have those basic bios, you know, the name, rank and serial number, where they played, went to college, things like that, basic bios that you would see on some of the reference pages like you talked about. But then you take us down, and you get into the text, and we're the story and the, you know, the testimonials about that player and everything. So I thought it was well done and consistent. And it was great to, you know, it was sort of, there's stories to it, but it's a reference book, in some ways too, or you could throw on your coffee table and somebody comes to visit and they have 10 minutes to kill, they can, you know, knock out one of these legends and read it or, you know, a dentist office or something like that. You know, it's great for that too, or to sit down and have a long read. So I think that was kind of incredible. And you have a book like that, that you can go both ways like that. So well, well done on that. Now, now, okay, you talked, you led to a little bit, you had, you know, about a dozen non-Hall of Famers on that list, which I thought was fantastic because there's, you know, it's very well publicized that, you know, folks want to see some more seniors getting into the pro football Hall of Fame. And maybe this is some avenues, you know, by, by folks like you, telling about some of these guys and letting us know about these legends. So maybe if you could talk maybe about a couple of these guys that are not in the Hall of Fame, I know you've already mentioned one or two.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I mean, and I didn't plan it that way. Like I said, once you start reading and doing the research, you're like, okay, because there were some impressions. Okay, I like him, but is he going to make the list? And then I'm like, Oh, you know what, you know, maybe he makes a not only does he make the list, he's up pretty high, you know. So Ox Emerson is one of the I think the ones that I really enjoy when I do the research is Bern Llewellyn, the Packers half back, you know, who was pretty much the go-to guy for the Packers teams that won three straight championships 29, 30, and 31. I mean, here's a guy that the team won three straight, you know, only Lombardi's Packers have won three straight NFL championships. And he's not in the whole thing. You know, I went back, and I did some retro MVPs that are in the front of the book, which is my research as you go through, and I picked who would be in the top five MVP, and Llewellyn would have won back-to-back, and 29 and 30. So, to me, he's like a no-brainer. You know, I've always liked his resume, and you know, like I said, he's very high on this list. You know, I won't reveal where he's at, but he is very high. And he's a head of a lot, a lot of Hall of Famers that are already, you know, like I said, have been elected, and he's not, you know, it's an Emerson's, you know, up there pretty good. And, and then you, yeah, then you get to some guys that you hopefully, you know, as I said, we talked about Lineman's earlier, like, you know, Joe copcha of the Bears, another guard of George Christensen, that lions are another lions alignment during that time when they won a championship and a tackle. And so those guys are tougher to, to evaluate because you don't have and like I said, some of the testimonials, you know, I mean, there's nobody living that can really push, you know, some candidacy, candidacy. And so, but it was very interesting, you know, like I said, you know, and then, as you mentioned before, I have 46 to 100. And there's Hall of Famers on there, you know, I list them and I make sure, hey, these are Hall of Famers. And so you can take it, you can take a look and say, okay, the guys that are ranked in the top 45, you know, maybe, maybe they need to be looked at a little bit harder. Or, you know, like I said, investigate a little bit more, based on, you know, because I find it hard to believe that the NFL or at least a probable Hall of Fame in the selection committee, like they're done with anybody who played almost like since 1950, you know, like, there's so everybody that was great, that's that is now in the Hall of Fame, you know, who played the first, you know, 40 years of the league, like, that, that would be a surprise to say that they're all in there, let's move on to this, the more modern era, you know, so, so hopefully, like I said, these chapters can bring some of these players to life and give them that, maybe proper attention.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Well, before I ask it my next question, why don't we give the opportunity here to tell folks again, the name of the book and where they can get a copy of it at? Yeah, it's.

Chris Willis
60 Minute Men was published by McFarland just this past March, and you could pick it up on Amazon or Barnes& Noble's website. You can also go to McFarland and Company. They play some football, but they play a lot of baseball. You know, if you're a sports fan or historian, you might know of McFarland because they do a lot of unique titles. So yeah so 60 Minute Men in the era of the two-way play era from 1920 -1945.

Darin Hayes
Alright, great. Now, folks, I highly recommend it to it's a great read. Now, well, Chris, when you're doing the research, okay, I'm sure, you know, as a writer, I know that sometimes we have some preconceptions, we're gonna write a story, but then you get into the research, and the story sort of takes you a different course maybe than you really thought it was going to go. And I'm sure you probably had some surprises with some of these players. Who is somebody that pleasantly surprised you? That was maybe somebody you knew a little bit about, but you didn't realize how good they were till you got into the research.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I've mentioned Llewellyn. He's one that, you know, over the years, like, as I do more research, I've been impressed with, you know, how good he was and how great he was. So, you know, I think the, maybe the other guy that comes to mind is a couple of quarterbacks that might get overlooked a little bit, because they're the way they perform is a little different function than now is red done, the old pack, you know, play for the Cardinals and Packers, and Ed Denowski, you know, the old Giants quarterback. So, I think I didn't; once I started digging a little bit more, I was more impressed by what they did, and especially their leadership. You know, Dunn was a pretty efficient passer and Lambo system. In those early years, you know, he did a little better than I thought. And Ed Danowski, I think was underrated. I think Danowski, when I more I looked at, especially in the passing game was, was highly efficient, you know, led the league, I believe, a couple of times in, in passing percentage and, you know, was a member of Giants championship teams, especially the sneaker game, you know, played very well in that game and the upset against the Bears. So, those are two names, I think, besides Llewelyn, I think, that sort of jump out a little bit more and were a little more impressive than I thought.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, that Danosky; I'm glad you mentioned him because he's probably one that really jumped out for me. You know, I knew of him, but I'm sorry, good boy. What's interesting is Danosky where you have him. And I started reading. I'm like, well, you know what, you make a pretty good case for him. And he's maybe a lot better than what I realized he was. So I learned a lot about him. So I appreciate you have him having him in there. So, okay, sort of maybe on the flip side, who is somebody, maybe you had to go in some high expectations saying, oh, this guy's going to be way up on the list. And maybe, you know, not because of his play, but because some of the plays, some of these other fellows that, you know, advanced beyond him on the list, who maybe some of those things.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I think, yeah, there was a couple of guys where I'm thinking, maybe, you know, I mean, George house is one, I think, people automate, but he wore like ten different hats. So, besides being a player, he did actually play, and he was solid; I wouldn't say he was spectacular. And obviously, he's in the Hall of Fame for, you know, the variety of things he did for the league, you know, and his impact, you know, so, so sometimes you see him, he's like, Oh, you know, I mean, I mentioned Thorpe being at 100. But how should I go? Should he have been higher or lower than the other couple guys, you know, that sort of came in that mid-30-year, you know, that I thought would be, you know, a little bit higher Joe Guyon, because he plays his professional career in the 20s, you know, so he's in the Hall of Fame, he was in, like the third or fourth class, you know, but maybe not quite as dominant, you know, as some of the ones in the top, you know, 45, you know, so, so there's a couple of players like that. I think the other one, they were not as it's Joe Stade higher, he, you know, when you look at him, like, you know, I mean, Alice praises him a lot, but that was one of his guys, you know, he did have some all pro teams. But maybe not just like that, in my opinion, but there were some examples like that, where, you know, you thought you might have them higher, but you know, didn't quite make it.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I think, and I don't disagree with you on it. You know, after reading what you had about these players ahead of them, I thought like, you know, George Wildcat was Wilson, somebody that famous, maybe more famous because, you know, his college play and playing out, you know, in the original AFL and, you know, the Wildcats and everything. But, you know, some of the other backs are ahead of him. But I don't disagree with you after I read it. And I'm thinking, OK, you know, he's probably right. You know, it's just maybe the name makes me think higher of them because, you know, it's been pounded into you for four years. But maybe some of those other guys, too, are the same way that you mentioned. So, you know, so great, great job. And I, you know, I can't argue with the rankings, and it's it's fun because they're debatable, and we're not going to debate with you on it. But it's one of those things that makes it interesting. That's what makes good reading, and people buy the book, too. So that's that's always a good thing, too. So we'll save that for people in forums, comments, and other stuff like that. They can do that. Sure.

Chris Willis
And that's part of it. If people discuss it, that's fine. It means they're reading the book and they're putting some energy in it. And if they want to say, hey, why is this guy high on his list and not high? So that's fine. That gives a good discussion. That's always productive.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Now, did you have, did you go back and look at any ratio of, uh, were there more quarterbacks and other players? I mean, I didn't really go into the tally, but I just sit here thinking about her. Was there, is there one position that was more predominant to make this to 45?

Chris Willis
Uh, I mean, I don't think there was one of four dominant. I mean, I think it played out, um, the way it did, um, with the importance of the positions, you know, I, I, you know, uh, like there wasn't quite as many centers, obviously, because there's only one on a team and they start, you know, where you have two guards too. So I think if you look at the breakdown, they're kind of consistent with what the positions were or the importance of each position, you know, so, um, you know. Obviously, the guys who touched the ball are going to, you know, are going to be somewhat, but I, I didn't want just to go off that, you know, so that's why there is a decent amount of guards and tackles on, on the team. Um, so, uh, so I, I always thought that it was, it was a good breakdown. I just didn't overload it and like, Oh, wait, I only got like two guards and three tackles. Like, no, it didn't come to that. I think, you know, if I did, you know, my proper research, I thought it came out that way, you know, you look at it, and you're like, okay, you know, there's some, some, some guards and some tack because they were just as prominent as the backs, even though the backs probably got more of the headlines, you know, um, you know, I mean, the Cal Hobbs and the, the Turk Edwards and them of the world, you know, the Mike Mitchell, they're up there and they're up there pretty high. And you're like, okay, you know, because that's why, you know, a lot of people that are saying how great they were, you know, um, so that's, you know, I thought it came out, but there wasn't one like, Oh, uh, you know, it was all, it was going to be a bunch of quarterbacks, and you know, that wasn't going to be the case.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I got the feeling of it, you know, reading it. You know if I was gonna put it, you know, these guys played both ways. So they played offense and defense, but if you're gonna put it in a modern term of, you know, the rooms, you know, I think there was probably just as many interior linemen as there were ends as there were You know backs as there were quarterback So I think you broke it very well and evenly and distributed them around it wasn't you know The the top 10 weren't quarterbacks and then half backs I loved how the placement of these guys and probably fairly so and even some teammates You know going on and I loved how you sort of interconnected some of those you had You know when you had like Fats Henry and Link Lyman in there You know no pun intended, but there's sent sort of link together, and you know to be in those bookends for the Canton teams, and you know They play together over on Potsville too. I can't remember if they did or not, But I know I know FASTA. they're just some interesting things that you did that connected the stories, Even though they were separate stories. So that was enjoyable, too.

Chris Willis
Yeah, I mean, as many teams that came in and out of the league, especially in the 20s, a lot of the greatness was on certain, obviously, teams and franchises, you know, the Bears, Packers, Giants have a lot of, but then you'd have like, like we mentioned Ernie Nevers, well, he played for, you know, Duluth and then the Cardinals, you know, some guys, you know, might have only played, you know, for, you know, and Sean played for a lot of years with Staten Island before we went to the Giants. So, you know, yes, the, you know, the, the main teams that survived and the teams that won championship obviously are well representative. And there's a lot of links, as you mentioned, a lot of links between those teams and, you know, you know, guys like Cal Harper to play for the Giants and the Packers, and he won championship both. So, you know, the, he's going to play with really good players too. So then they're representative in the list.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, most definitely. No, I guess, Chris, you have you have any last things to say, maybe the share with the listeners to encourage them to buy the book and we'll let you tell you where the book you can get the book again.

Chris Willis
Sure. Uh, yeah, no, I mean, I think if you, uh, if you love early pro football, you know, this is a book that you'll be interested in, you know, like I said, the chapters flow pretty easy. You can, like, like you mentioned, stop, put it down. If you want to, you know, read just one chapter a night, then, you know, you can, uh, you can do it pretty easy. And, and, you know, these chapters kind of sit by themselves, so to speak. And, uh, and then the other thing for me is, uh, I mean, you know, the internet and social media is huge on who they think deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. And a lot of it is modern guys, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I would hate for this era of players and even talking into the fifties and even early sixties, I hate for some of these players to get lost just because, you know, nobody's around to talk about them, you know, or when they're not living, uh, or there's just something coming, you know, you can't watch footage on YouTube or whatever, like, you know, these players are still great, you know, they can be, it shouldn't be ignored. So I think between some of that, you know, the book has, you know, can give a reader, you know, a very, you know, fun read as well as educational. I'm just like, you know, this is a good source.

Cause like I said, it's not just reading the Wikipedia page or just reading a stat page, you know, puts it in a lot of context of the era, you know, who, what players thought who was great, you know, how they became great. I mean, I love some of the Don Hudson, you know, stuff about, you know, how he made himself just a great receiver, whether, you know, practice, he would catch though, you know, when I read that, or when I did the research and read the Hudson, it just almost looks like it's a Jerry Rice story. Like, you know, that he did in the eighties and nineties. Well, that's, you know, Hudson did it in the thirties and early, you know, or forties, you know, like the way he practiced, the way he played, you know, the way he worked, you know, shoulder pads that weren't all that, but you know, like, you know, to give him more speed and things like that. Like, you know, he was a legit athlete and played some solid defense too. And then eventually, he played some thought into it when he, you know, found the correct position. So, if you go, yeah, so if you go on the McFarland website, publishers, the book will be there, and then you can also get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, folks, I highly recommend it. And if you want to know who that top spot is, the best way to do it is to get that book and, uh, enjoy it just like I did. And, uh, you know, Chris probably did it during his research, and people read it. So Chris, we really appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you preserving football history and writing that book. And, uh, thank you for your time to tell us about it.

Chris Willis
Thanks for having me again, Darin. It's always a pleasure to talk about early football history. So thanks for having me.