Football Daily

While Notre Dame's gridiron history is adorned with the names of flashy running backs and prolific passers, the foundation of any successful team is built on a strong offensive line. Edgar Miller, a stalwart tackle for the Fighting Irish in the early 1920s, exemplifies this principle. This essay explores Miller's impactful career, examining his role in Knute Rockne's revolutionary offense, his contributions to national championship runs, and his lasting legacy within the Notre Dame football program.

-A Pillar of Stability: Anchoring the "Seven Mules" (Early 1900s-1924)

Born in 1901, Edgar Miller arrived at Notre Dame possessing a powerful physique and a natural aptitude for football. Under the tutelage of the visionary coach Knute Rockne, Miller blossomed into a dominant tackle. He became a key member of the famed "Seven Mules" offensive line, a unit renowned for its strength, cohesion, and ability to pave the way for the explosive "Four Horsemen" backfield. Miller's unwavering presence on the left side of the line created running lanes and provided crucial protection for the likes of Don Hutson and Jim Crowley. His relentless blocking and tactical intelligence were instrumental in the "Seven Mules'" success.

-A Champion on and Off the Field (1922-1924)

Miller's impact extended beyond individual accolades. He was a leader within the offensive line, setting the tone with his work ethic and dedication. His quiet confidence and unwavering focus were admired by teammates and coaches alike. During his tenure at Notre Dame, the Fighting Irish established a national powerhouse under Rockne. Miller played a vital role in their undefeated season in 1924, a campaign culminating in a thrilling Rose Bowl victory. His contributions were a cornerstone of this historic achievement.

-From Player to Coach: A Legacy Beyond Notre Dame (1925-1974)

Following his playing career, Miller transitioned into coaching. He served as the head coach for the United States Naval Academy from 1931 to 1933, compiling a respectable record. Miller then spent over four decades at Navy as the line coach, leaving a lasting impact on countless players.

Miller's coaching philosophy emphasized the fundamentals – a reflection of his own playing style and the values instilled in him by Knute Rockne.

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Born May 22, 1907, in Chicago, Illinois, was Washington tackle of 1929 to 1931, Paul Schwegler. The FootballFoundation.org reflects on how the Washinton Huskies football program was not very good during Schwegler’s time there. In fact they won only 12 of the 27 games played. But the play of tackle "Schweg" Schwegler, a native of Raymond, Washington, helped ease the pain and reverse the trend.

Despite Washington's lack of success, selectors were unable to overlook Schwegler, naming him to no less than 43 collegiate all-star teams.  In 1931 Paul was a first team All-America choice that year as well, and went on to be named the defensive standout of the West squad in the 1932 East-West Shrine game. Paul Schwegler received the great honor of being selected for inclusion into the College Football Hall of Fame in 1967.

Being inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame is a mark of unparalleled prestige and accomplishment. It signifies that a player has not only excelled on the field but has also left a lasting legacy that transcends generations. This honor is reserved for those who have demonstrated exceptional skill, leadership, and impact in collegiate football, shaping the sport’s history and inspiring future players. Remembering these inductees is not just a tribute to their remarkable careers but also a celebration of their enduring influence on the game. Their stories and achievements serve as a beacon of excellence and a testament to the profound role they’ve played in elevating college football to new heights.

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Our look at one of the most historically significant backfields in College Football History, Woody Strode, Kenny Washington, and Jackie Robinson of the UCLA Bruins.

Join us for their story of success on the college gridiron, the eir life long obstacles, and paving the way to success in different genrea after they left the Bruins program.

Huddle up, football faithful! Step back in time with us to 1939, a year etched in gridiron lore. It was a season where leather meets cleats, legends rise, and records fall. Imagine, if you will, a landscape dotted with iconic stadiums, their stands crackling with anticipation. The air vibrates with the roar of the crowd, punctuated by the thwack of the pigskin and the bone-jarring crunch of tackles. This, my friends, is the story of the 1939 NFL season, a tale woven with triumph, heartbreak, and the unyielding spirit of the game we love.

Green Bay's Dynasty Reaches Its Zenith:
Led by the indomitable trio of Arnie Herber, Cecil Isbell, and Don Hutson, the Green Bay Packers were a juggernaut. Their innovative passing attack, a marvel of the time, left defenses bewildered and fans awestruck. This year, they aimed for an unprecedented feat: a third consecutive NFL Championship, a feat unmatched in league history.

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Two of the more popular teams in the NFL based on jersey sales are undeniably the Kansas City Chiefs and the Dallas Cowboys. Their active and passionate fanbases are mobilized and outspoken and the players are some of the best on the planet. But where did these teams arise from?

Journalist John Eisenberg wrote a book on the shared rise to power of the Chiefs and Cowboys in his book: Ten-Gallon War: The NFL's Cowboys, the AFL's Texans, and the Feud for Dallas's Pro Football Future

-Transcript of Ten Gallon Wars with John Eisenberg

Darin Hayes
Hello my football friends. This is Darin Hayes at pigskindispatch.com. We are here once again to talk about some great football, professional football level today, and a very interesting book that was written by the author, John Eisenberg, one of his multiple books on the game of football. It's called 10 Gallon War, the NFL's Cowboys and the AFL's Texans, and the feud for Dallas's pro football future. We'll bring him in right now. John Eisenberg, welcome to the Pigpen.

John Eisenberg
Well, thank you for having me; I'm looking forward to it.

Darin Hayes
I am, too, because this is a very interesting topic. But before we get into your book, maybe you could just tell the listening audience a little bit about yourself and what brought on your football fandom.

John Eisenberg
Well, I grew up and am a native Texan. I grew up in Dallas and was born and raised there as a Cowboy fan. You know, I always tell people, you know, don't don't throw stuff at me too hard. But you know, I came by naturally; I grew up in their family and had season tickets from literally when the Cowboys began in 1960. So I'm a real one. And after college, you know, I got into sports writing as a career. And I actually worked in Dallas for five years there at the afternoon paper there at Dallas time, Cheryl, I did not cover pro football. But, you know, I did cover a lot of cowboy games and all that stuff. And then, in 1984, I made a big move to Baltimore Sun, where I got a column; I've been a columnist at the Baltimore Sun for 25 years. So, I did a ton of pro football there. But I got there right when the Colts were leaving. And so there was over a decade without football in Baltimore, and did a lot of Super Bowls and other cities, teams, and all that stuff. And then, of course, the Ravens came to town. And I've been covering the Ravens ever since. As a matter of fact, since 2012, that's where I write; I left the newspaper business a little over a decade ago because I've written these other books; I had that sort of secondary career. But yet, the Ravens actually bought me lock, stock, and barrel, you know, my opinions. They want me to write an opinion on their digital platforms, good, bad, or indifferent, and it's been very interesting. But I've been doing that for a decade. So, you know, I've just been an opinion maker in the Baltimore market for many, many years and been around a million football teams and players and games. And, you know, aside from my daily stuff, I've done, as you mentioned, a bunch of books.

Darin Hayes
Uh, this is going to be a very interesting dynamic in our conversation. Cause I don't know if you know, I'm from Western Pennsylvania, a lifelong president, and a Steelers fan. So I'm talking to somebody from Dallas who was born a Cowboys fan, who was sort of, uh, I grew up with that, that nemesis of, you know, the three Super Bowls played against each other and, uh, and now the Ravens, uh, the arch enemies of the Steelers, this is going to be really interesting. So this is a get some great perspective here for me.

John Eisenberg
I would like to be your worst possible guest.

Darin Hayes
Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's great when you can agree or disagree on things. And that makes conversations more interesting, I think. So I think this will be extremely interesting. So we'll have to talk a little bit about Ravens-Steelers if we have some time at the end. Now, let's get into your book. The one book that we want to talk about today is from your hometown, the Dallas Cowboys in Pro Football. And maybe you could start off by explaining where the beginnings of pro football in Dallas were and what the climate was like for pro football in that city.

John Eisenberg
Well, what's amazing was in the late fifties, there were no teams there. Dallas, you know, is now such a huge football market, but it is not one of those original markets where there were NFL teams like Pittsburgh and other places going back to the Depression and whatnot. But by the late fifties, of course, pro football was taking off. And there were a lot of cities that wanted in. Most of them were on the south way, you know, the Sunbelt, where there was starting to be some money. And certainly, in Texas, there was a ton of money, oil money. These wanted to be into pro football, but the NFL was reluctant to expand George Halas and those guys, as well as Art Rooney and Pittsburgh. They'd spent a lot of years not making any money. They were finally making money. And they were hesitant to carve up the pie. Really is what it comes down to. They trusted each other, but they weren't sure who else they should trust. So they didn't want these cities to come in. So, you know, Lamar Hunt is a 26-year-old kid who is a native of Dallas. He's the son of probably the wealthiest man in America. His father was HL Hunt, an oil man. Lamar and HL actually assumed that Lamar would go into the oil business. But Lamar was a sports nut. And he was from the beginning. He was a football player. He was a third-string end at SMU in the 50s. And he didn't want to go into the oil business. He wanted to go into football and the NFL. But those guys basically patted him on the head, Halas, and said, you know, we like you; we like your money. But we're not going to bring a team to Dallas. And so he made the decision, you know, that's what led him to form the AFL, which was that the NFL wouldn't let him in. And so that's sort of where it all started. Honestly, the roots of the whole AFL and the changes in pro football and everything that came out of that started because Dallas had no teams, and Lamar Hunt wanted one and didn't get one. So that's really where it all began.

Darin Hayes
But I don't; I didn't realize that Lamar Hunt was so young when he started his endeavor, and that's really some, having some brass tax at 26 years old. I don't know if I'd be thinking that big when I was 26 years old. I don't know about you, but that's really quite an endeavor to go to the NFL, even though it was a little bit smaller than it is now, and then start your own league when they don't accept you; that's a tremendous drive that he had to do that.

John Eisenberg
I think he was kind of naive. To be honest with you, I think he was not super competitive about it. He originally thought, well, they won't let me in. He was a very kind-hearted guy. And he was like, they're not gonna let me in. So I'll just do my own league. We won't, and maybe we don't even have to compete with them. He was really naive in that he was like, well, there's room for another league, we'll just have another league. And not realizing, of course, that the NFL people just freaked out when, you know, the possibility of another league. So, but I think when he started, he was like, oh, this will be fine. This will be great. We won't bother them. And they won't bother me. Honestly, incredibly naive.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I guess so he probably didn't look back a decade earlier at the AFC when they competed and ended up getting absorbed pretty much and had franchises eliminated when they were merged in the NFL so not a great track record for rival leagues against the NFL.

John Eisenberg
The NFL cared a lot about who the rivals were. And, you know, very quickly, realized we're getting a little ahead of it. But the people that he brought in had some money; the AFL people, Lamar, of course, had more money than all the NFL people put together. And so did Bud Adams, who started the Houston Oilers. And, you know, they had a lot of people, not all of them, but they had a lot of people with money. And so right off the bat, the NFL said, who, this is a real challenge. And so that's where things got started.

Darin Hayes
Okay, now, you also say in your book that there was another franchise that was trying to be started in Dallas about the same time, maybe if you could talk about that group or owner and the team.

John Eisenberg
Which are you referring to? I mean, there was there was an NFL team in Dallas in the early 50s. You know, there was, you know, there was that team, the Dallas Texans, that, Yeah, not.

Darin Hayes
It's the original Dallas Texans, but it's the start of the Cowboys franchise.

John Eisenberg
Oh, that. Yes. Well, yeah, I did. I didn't want to.

Darin Hayes
spill the beans too early on.

John Eisenberg
Oh, that other team. Yes, well, yeah, Clint Murchison was the oil man that eventually started the Cowboys, and he had been in touch with the NFL as well in the late fifties before there was a team, and the NFL was reluctant to expand, but sort of talking about it. He had been in touch with Halas and Rooney, and those old guys all knew him, and those guys all loved him. He was also from the oil business. He was this little, wise-cracking, bespectacled guy who was on the cover of Time Magazine at one point, really, really rich. The NFL guys loved his money, and he was funny, and they liked him. And so they had not decided to give him a team yet, but when he'd been in touch with them, they all knew him. And when the AFL started, and Lamar said, we're starting this new league, and we're gonna put a team in Dallas, the NFL, they didn't wanna lose that market. They didn't wanna lose the Dallas market and just handed it over. So they said, okay, well, we're gonna put a team in there too. And they nominated, or they basically gave Clint Merckx in a phone call and said, hey, are you ready to go? That's really what it boiled down to. And he said, great. So they expanded. The NFL had not expanded in years, and they expanded with a team in Dallas in 1960, and then they paired it with the Minnesota Vikings started in 1961. So they paired it with two teams they brought in, but they started the Cowboys almost with the snap of a finger. They said it was 1959, and the AFL was getting ready to start. And they said, hey, well, can you get a team up and running next year? And Clint Merckx said, well, yeah, we can. And so it really was almost just a quickie. They asked if we could get this thing going. And they did. But Clint Merckx is the guy that got it going. And he was a good businessman, and he made a couple of key hires, I would say, given the history of what unfolded after that. He hired Tex Schramm as the general manager, who had been with the Rams and had been with CBS TV and was a real sort of forward-thinking guy. He hired Tom Landry as the coach, a Texans Texan from the University of Texas, and they flew bomber missions in World War II and were successful; he was the defensive coordinator of the New York Giants at the time, a very successful, smart coach, and an assistant coach. Vince Lombardi was the offensive coordinator, and the staff was decent. And so he hired Tom Landry. So Clint Merckx did some very smart things. He hired some really, really good people. And so that was how the Cowboys began.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, a very interesting couple of comments here. You know, I think when you're talking about Minnesota, I believe the NFL did a similar thing with Minnesota. The AFL was about ready to open up a franchise there, and they contacted some folks up there. The Vikings came in, and I think that's what led the Minnesota franchise to turn into Oakland. I believe that's how the story went.

John Eisenberg
Yeah, yeah, that is correct. That is exactly what happened. And yeah, they were forcing hands. If the NFL said, you know, we're not going to give these markets up, it was contentious pretty quickly.

Darin Hayes
Now, in your opinion, they had Lamar hunt, and you know, they turned Lamar hunt down. He decides, okay, I'm going to start my own league, gets, gets some, uh, some of the other wealthy, uh, owners together to start this. Do you think if he hadn't done that and Murchison comes to them and says, Hey, I want to Dallas Cowboys, that they would have sort of blown him off like they did the hunt at the first time?

John Eisenberg
Very debatable. It's a great question that we'll never know the answer to. As I said, they're in no hurry to expand. They had 12 teams through the whole 50s. They were very happy with that. And the money was rolling in, as I said, from TV for the first time. And so they were making some money, and they were excited about that because they hadn't made it for 30 years. And so they may not have, but Congress was sniffing around. The pressure was coming in terms of being forced to expand. And I think they probably would have eventually. The expansion committee in the NFL was George Halas. He was on the expansion committee. They claimed to have one. It was George Halas. He was running things. And so he really had no interest, but I think he could see, and Burt Bell, who was the commissioner, that it was probably going to have to happen pretty soon. There were just so many cities that were on the outside looking in that it was almost a trust that needed to be busted.

Darin Hayes
Okay, so now we're at the point where Hunt has his team, which she ended up calling the Dallas Texans. The second carnation of the Dallas Texans, as we alluded to earlier, was an earlier team in the NFL, the Dallas Texans. And you have, you know, the Tech Tram hire and the Landry hire of the Dallas Cowboys, which are going with the other crew that had the NFL franchise. So, how did those competing teams and leagues compete in the same market? How did they deal with each other?

John Eisenberg
It was pretty crazy. Just such an unprecedented situation. There was one stadium, the Cotton Bowl, the big stadium, which was a real sort of college football shrine. They had a New Year's Bowl game there. It was a big stadium, a big concrete sort of terrain that had been the site of many, many great games. Texas and Oklahoma played there every year. I mean, Dallas was a Texas was a college football haven. That's why they wanted it. I mean, it was very popular there, especially in high school and college football. The pros were that's what they were trying to tap into a really passionate football area, which it was then and still is. But then, once they got going, they fought over dates in the Cotton Bowl. Lamar Hunt had the right and had signed a lease. And so he got the Sunday afternoon window, a number of games that he could choose from, and a number of dates. So the Cowboys actually were sort of left out on that. And they started out playing on, they played, I think the first ever game was on a Saturday night, and they had a Friday night game. And, you know, the league wasn't telling teams what to do then. The national TV contracts hadn't started. So they were just winging it at the different times when they could play. So they fought over the stadium. Finally, when the other one played when one team played, the other one was on the road, and people would decide in Dallas, would decide which side are we going on here? Almost immediately, every football fan in Dallas had to decide if I would like both, but who's really my number one? And so certainly, for instance, my family and grandfather had the purse strings with the tickets, and, you know, he was sort of an establishment guy. So he's going with the NFL. That's for sure. The old established league, not the upstart, but, you know, I had a cousin who was a young sort of hip guy, and he didn't want any part of that. And so he went with the AFL; he went with the Texans. So the, I think, I think of the way it broke down a little bit. I'm really overgeneralizing here, but maybe the older people went with the Cowboys, and the young people sort of liked the new upstart team because, right off the bat, the caliber of football was interesting. The Texans are who they are: they hired Hank Strand, they also made a great hire for a coach, and they were playing good football from the get-go. And they were winning. They were pretty good. The Cowboys were an expansion team, and the NFL was getting their brains beat in every week. So it was more fun to watch a team that was winning. So, at that point, the sixties was a minor league town. And here come the Chicago bears for a visit. That was pretty exciting, as were the New York Giants. And so they did do a lot of business at the gate with the teams coming in. I don't think the AF, the fans really cared about seeing the Oakland Raiders or whoever were brand new, but then the Chicago Bears, now you're talking. And so they just sort of cut the city up in half and, you know, tried their best. They papered the gates. Both teams wanted to draw more than the other. They gave away thousands of tickets, in particular, to Lamar Hunt. He just wanted bigger crowds than the Cowboys and did everything he could to do that. And so free, you know, everybody gets in free practically. So there were just all sorts of shenanigans right from the very beginning.

Darin Hayes
Now, I think you allude to in your book, which I found to be very interesting in this dynamic, especially these first couple of years, that each franchise had its own marketing strategy and how-to team-building strategy. Maybe you could go into that a little bit to learn what Hunt's philosophy is. I know you're saying he gave away tickets and everything, but it seemed like you had a bit more fanfare with him.

John Eisenberg
with the AFL for sure, you know, and it really boils down to the AFL versus the NFL. The AFL played more wide-open football. They were certainly at that point, and there's a whole other story. You know, we're a little more racially open-minded than the NFL. That was definitely happening in the AFL. And they tried to bring in local guys to be on the, you know, to lead the team, people that the college football fans may know. And yes, as I said, I mean, Lamar Hunt was a marketer. And so they tried, they tried everything. I mean, they, you know, shot off cannons with a ticket, and they set off balloons over the city with the free tickets in them. And if, you know, it came down in your backyard, you got free tickets to the Texans game. If you went and got your car washed, they would give you a free ticket. They were just doing anything they could to get people to come. The Cowboys were more buttoned-down, a sort of traditional business. Pay your ticket, come in, and we'll take our lumps at the gate because we know we're just starting out. But you understand that because the AFL was a new product. And so, but Lamar was doing everything he could to get attention. You know, they brought in, you know, they had, they hired 30 attractive women. Talk about something, you know, in 2021 that would raise some eyes. They hired a team of attractive women to drive around in convertibles and give tickets away and attract attention, you know, the Texan girls or whatever they called them. I can't remember. And so, I don't know how successful they were, but the good news for Lamar is he married one of them. So, uh, so that worked out well for him. The Cowboys were more traditional.

Darin Hayes
Okay, so we know that today we don't have two teams in Dallas, you know, we know that the AFL and the NFL eventually merged. And there's only one team in the Dallas, Fort Worth area that play a major pro football. So what happened after that, that one of the teams left, we obviously the Cowboys are the team still there. What happened to the Texans?

John Eisenberg
Well, the Texans played three seasons there. They had winning teams. They drew some decent crowds. And in their third season, they had a really good team in 1962. They had Lynn Dawson as a quarterback. They had Abner Haynes, who is one of these guys that is just lost in the mists of history; he was a great player in the early years of the AFL running back and could catch the ball out of a lot of nice players on their team. And they wound up getting into the championship game, the Dallas Texans, in 1962. And they played the Houston Oilers. So it was an all-Texas game, and this epic game unfolded. They were down in Houston. And, you know, they had a big lead, and then the Oilers came back on them. And this is a nationally televised game. And they wind up going into overtime. And it was tremendous, and the viewing audience was tremendous. In some respects, it was the day the AFL really was legitimized. You know, people talk about the Colts Giants championship game in 1958 as sort of legitimizing the NFL. Well, the Texans-Oilers game in 1962 sort of legitimized AFL going into overtime. And this unbelievable scene unfolds where the Texans blow the coin flip to overtime. And the Oilers wind up with the ball and the wind. Nonetheless, they survived that and wound up winning the game in overtime. So the Dallas Texans are AFL champions, and they fly home. The only bad news is Lamar Hunt knows he's already decided to move the team. He had decided this wasn't going to work. This isn't going to work for me. I mean, we're sort of building things a little bit. And we're growing a little bit. But for the sake of this league, we need success stories. And we're in for a fight here. He realized, and what's interesting, that Lamar and Clint Ferguson were friends. They were in the oil business families, and they knew each other. Clint Ferguson was going nowhere. The Cowboys were from the established league, and they had Tom Landry and Tex Schram. And they might be losing right now. But they were building something, and they were going nowhere. They were not a fly-by-night operation. And Clint was loaded. So he could afford to lose money a little bit. So Lamar just made the decision, you know, and he founded AFL; he said we have to find somewhere where we can be successful. So he looked long and hard in New Orleans. It was really funny. He had friends in the oil business in New Orleans. And they told him you can't do it here. There's too much money under the table in New Orleans. You can't you can't go there. You the way they do business there, you won't do well. So we wound up going to Kansas City. And you know, they gave him a sweet deal, a bunch of season tickets, a promise. And he was the only game in town. So he went there. He went there. So it broke his heart. I mean, that was his hometown. He never got over it. And the Chiefs, you know, they changed the name to the camp. I mean, some friends told him he was so heartbroken that you could call him the Kansas City Texans. And, you know, Lamar was a Texan and was halfway like, yeah, I just my just do that. But, you know, they want a cooler head prevailed, as they say. So, they moved, you know, within weeks of winning the championship, the defending champions in the AFL in 1963 kicked off in a new city. And so three years and gone, and broke the hearts of their fans in Dallas. And to this day, there is an older group now, but you will find a small group of football fans, pro football fans in Dallas who hate the Cowboys. They hate them. Really? Yes. The reason is that they were Texans fans. They loved the Dallas Texans. They love the AFL. And they never got over it. They didn't get over it. It was well, you know, our team left town, you moved my team out of town, and I'll never forget it before. So it's a very small group, I might add, but they say

Darin Hayes
My mother lives in the Dallas area, and I just visited there this summer and got to go see AT&T Stadium. I got my picture outside the Cotton Bowl, you know, did all the touristy football things, and I don't know everything. When I looked there, I saw that silver stars were everywhere.

John Eisenberg
,

Darin Hayes
that the souvenir store inside AT&T Stadium; a couple of days later, I was at the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The souvenir at the stadium for just Cowboys paraphernalia is much larger than the Pro Football Hall of Fame by far. They have many more items in there, in my opinion, in their sort of back-to-back days. Now, you've said before the Lamar Hunt left and went to conversations in some backroom somewhere over some adult beverages to sort of work things out.

John Eisenberg
Yeah, they may have. I'm sure they did have conversations. I think the possibility of them working things out was slim. You know, this was sort of an elite class of guys, I mean, financially, and they're sort of used to wheeling and dealing. And they have a lot of conversations about a lot of things, I think. So yeah, they probably did talk about that. And, you know, I'm sure the NFL guys told Clint, Listen, you know, if you could, especially before the AFL started, when it was clear, there are going to be two teams, it's like, Listen, can you bring Lamar in? Can you do this? Can you get him to, you know, call off the dogs? Can you do something with Lamar? We know you know him. And Clint said, Well, yeah, I'm sure they probably had conversations then. But once the, you know, Lamar was a traditionalist and, and, and once he decided that we're going forward with this, and he had partners, you know, he had these guys in these other cities, then there was no going back. I mean, he was, he was down the road with, you know, Bud Adams, and Ralph Wilson, and Buffalo, and, you know, Harry Wismar, and those guys with New York Jets, and, and, you know, Baron Hilton in San Diego, or what wound up being San Diego, the first year was the charge of LA. But now, ironically, they're back after all these years, but you know, he had some partners. And so he was there. Clint might have talked to him about it, but he wasn't going to change his mind.

Darin Hayes
Now, I guess, I mean, it's a happy ending win-win for both franchises because things look pretty good for them. You're just less than a decade later, you know, Kansas City much earlier in the AFL, but even when they were both in the NFL, both had some championship runs. So it worked out very well. And I think Kansas City is very happy to have the Chiefs, especially nowadays.

John Eisenberg
Well, they got a great, yes, and they got a great owner. I mean, Lamar Hunt is one of the great owners in sports, you know, and now his son's running it. But, you know, Lamar was very fan-friendly. He cared a lot about, you know, let's make it good for the fans. I mean, he, you know, they built those two stadiums in Kansas City that were not the 1970 football, baseball sort of all of which had been blown up, you know, which didn't really work. He had sports-specific stadiums. That was Lamar wanting that. And yeah, I mean, so they got it. He would walk the parking lot before games in Kansas City and talk to the fans. Are you okay? How are your seats? Are you happy? You know, he was just, you know, a humble guy that cared about the fans. And, of course, he loved other sports. I mean, I covered him at the beginning of my newspaper career in Dallas. He had owned a soccer team. It was a team in Dallas, and I covered it. And that's when I dealt with Lamar a lot. And if you had a question, you just called him. I mean, his phone was listed. You just called Lamar Hunt, and his phone was listed. Yeah, he'd just call him. He'd answer the phone.

Darin Hayes
I assume Jerry Jones isn't the same way. He just has his number public. No, I don't think so. So he'd probably never get off the phone.

John Eisenberg
So, they had a great owner in Kansas City. They were very happy with the way it worked out. And, of course, what was really great and what I enjoyed writing about was the Chiefs won when they were gonna start the Super Bowl that first year after the 66th season, the Chiefs won the AFL title, and the Cowboys hosted Green Bay in the NFL Championship game at the Cotton Bowl. And we're one play away from forcing overtime the Lombardi Packers and Super Bowl one. And I am really kind of an old Cowboy fan. I really kind of blew the game. I mean, they're all in the one-yard line, and there was a moving penalty, and they were going in for the tying score. And it probably would have been overtime. That would have been interesting to see Lombardi in overtime. But anyway, the Cowboys were almost there. It was almost the two franchises in the first Super Bowl. So, as it turned out, Super Bowl four, then three years later, the Chiefs were back in it, and they won. And then that is the last AFL, the last game between the AFL and NFL before the merger. In the last game, the Kansas City Chiefs kicked the Minnesota Vikings up one side and down the other. You know, one of you talk to these old AFL fans, one of the great days in history. And so Lamar, in some respects, got a last laugh with that. I mean, he lost his hometown, and he never forgot it, but he had a lot of success in his life.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, very, very interesting book. Maybe if you could let our listeners know where your book this book and your other books would be available for purchase so they can get some more of the details that you have in there. So it's a truly a great book.

John Eisenberg
Well, this book, I wrote another one actually before it, about growing up in Dallas as a cowboy fan. It's really sort of an ode to being an early kid in the 1960s. And it's called Cotton Bowl Days. That's one. And then the 10 Gallon War. I also wrote a book about Vince Lombardi's first year with the Packers in 1959. The year that he took, I didn't write about the dynasty years, just all the changes that took place in that first year, which I found the story fascinating. And the most recent football book was called The League, which is a league-wide story. It's about the early years of the NFL and how they barely made it. And I'm talking about twenties, thirties, forties, and fifties, and it focuses on five owners, five owners who sort of just pick the league up by the collar and drag it through these years. And Art Rooney in Pittsburgh is one of them. Birdville in Philadelphia. George Preston Marshall in Washington. And then, of course, Hallis with the Bears and Tim Mara. The original Mara started the New York Giants in 1925 for $500. So those are my football books, and they're all available on Amazon. You know, these are with major publishers. I've written for over a period of years, and they're out there. You can get an audio version. You can get a paperback. You can certainly get a hardback on Amazon anywhere. Any major bookseller would be able to get these books for you.

Darin Hayes
I have a feeling my Prime account is going to be very active this weekend, so I am making some purchases. And I'm sure most of our listeners will, too, when this airs. So yeah, very interesting. I got to hear some about your book. You were on with one of my associates, Jeremy McFarland, I believe not too long ago, talking about the book The Late, the Late, yeah. So, so yeah,

John Eisenberg
early days, the NFL. I'm fascinated with it. It's people who just can't believe in this day and age. The NFL is so high, mighty, and rich. People can't believe that it was like a, you know, a little little, you know, fly-by-night operation. And then that's exactly what it was for many years. And so I really enjoyed researching that book.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's really a fascinating story, especially, you know, I have my Steelers connection; I've done a lot on Steelers history and read a lot on Steelers history. And I've got a guest coming on here soon in the next couple of days, Alan March, who is Dr. March's great-grandson, who helped with the work with Mara and developing the Giants and some of their stories. So that's history there with those five teams, which is fascinating. I look forward to reading that book. Now, okay, now, we got to get to the questions here. Now, you are your connection with the Ravens. Now, I know, less than a month from now, I believe it's going to be the first Steelers-Ravens game. And I know what it is like here in Western Pennsylvania and listening to the Pittsburgh media when it's Ravens week, everything is focused on Ravens week; I don't know, the Pirates could be winning, the Penguins could be winning, it doesn't matter. It's Ravens week, and the city is in a frenzy. And that's all everybody wants to talk about. Is that the same way it is in Baltimore?

John Eisenberg
Oh, very much so. It has been for many, many years. I will say I think it's waned a little bit, just because, you know, there are other teams out there and the, you know, Kansas City Chiefs and there's a lot going on. But for sure, I mean, the Steelers are the number one rivalry by far. And yeah, I mean, everybody still, they call it Steeler Week, you know, okay, so

Darin Hayes
So it's the same now, I know, living in the 70s. I live in Erie, Pennsylvania, So I'm a hundred miles from Buffalo, a hundred miles from Pittsburgh, and a hundred miles from Cleveland. Three NFL franchises have been doing pretty well here in the last couple of years, anyway. Before the Ravens became the Ravens, they were the Browns, of course, and I don't remember even as a kid when Browns week, as you know, it was a rivalry, and we had fun with it. Especially, you know, that's sort of a mixed bag here and here with, you know, fans split between the three teams. But I don't ever remember it being like it is for a Ravens rivalry. I mean, these two teams just seem to, you know, bring out the best in each other. They're probably the hardest hit you see in either team's highlight films. It was always where it's always a Steelers-Ravens game. It seems like, you know, you go back to the Heinz Ward block, you go with. You know, some of the linebacker hits on Roethlisberger, and you know where his nose is broken, his helmets are sideways. It's a Ravens game, and I think those are just some of the fantastic Games and probably one of the best rivalries in football going probably the last decade or so

John Eisenberg
Yeah, I mean, I think that's when the AFC North was formed. When did they go to that in 2002, I think? I believe so when they went to that. So, you know, before that, the Ravens were sort of battling with the Tennessee Titans in the old, but I can't remember what they called it. AFC Central was. AFC Central. So, you know, the Ravens, I think, have been in this. I mean, I know this for a fact: they were a new franchise when they moved to Baltimore, even though our model moved them. I mean, they started over with Ozzy Newsom and a lot of new people. And they really sort of modeled themselves after the Steelers because the Steelers, the way that they've operated with real staying the course with your personnel, hire the right people, keep with them, don't make changes all the time, you know, build through the draft, be patient. You know, I really think, especially when Steve Beshotti became the owner, it's almost like they took a thing, put it up on a bulletin board, and said, here's what we're shooting for right here. Okay, we're going to operate this way. And it was how the Steelers operated. And so the fact that they were in the same division was interesting. And so they sort of built themselves that way. And it helped organically. They had, you know, they drafted these great defensive players, Ray Lewis and all these guys. So they had a tough physical team. So they sort of modeled themselves after that. And then when they caught up to some degree, then you just had two really good teams just battling. And I think that's what fans, you could identify with that rivalry, you know, they were going to hit each other. And it was just football, it was classic football, you know, it's what fans want from football. And so that's what made it such a good rivalry. And a lot of the old Ravens that I talked to, and I'm sure the old Steelers are the same. That's the games they remember. That's the games they remember. So I was talking to Kelly Greg, an old, you know, an old line defensive lineman, the little squatty guy that I'm sure the Steeler fans are remembering as a great little nose tackle. And boy, he remembers battling Alan Panica, like, like nobody's business just down in the mud, you know, just, you know, and that these guys all have memories like that. So it's this just classic football. And I think that's what people like about

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's just a tremendous rivalry, you know, maybe if you could tell folks where you can read your items that are on the Ravens, that you said you're doing that a couple times a week. Yeah, some things if you give that address out.

John Eisenberg
Pretty sure. Well, that's www.BaltimoreRavens.com. It's their website. I mean, my opinions on there. There's a column on Tuesday, there's a column on Saturday, and within two hours of the game being over, my opinions on whatever game is just taking place. So that's my gig these days. And, you know, just so it's there. And of course, it's, you know, they put it all stuff on social media. So it's all over the place, you know, on the NFL team website, and there's a lot of traffic. So, that's where I am these days.

Darin Hayes
But we really appreciate you taking the time from your busy schedule and appreciate your knowledge of football's past, going back into the beginnings of the NFL, right up and through the 50s and 60s, with your books and now writing about modern football on the Ravens website and of course the columns that you did back when you were still writing for the newspaper. I appreciate your well-rounded history and sharing information with us today, as well as the stories of these great Dallas teams and franchises in that history, and I appreciate you being on.

John Eisenberg
Well, it's my pleasure. Thanks. I enjoyed it. And yeah, I love it. I love writing about the history. It's, it's fun stuff. And, you know, I find that a lot of people can relate to it. I've heard from a lot of non-Dallas football fans about these Dallas books that I wrote. So they're just sort of eternal, right? I mean, it transfers if you're a fan of some team, you're an old football fan, you like this stuff. So it's my pleasure to do it, really. It's a labor of love.

Darin Hayes
I can testify to that because I'm not a big fan of either team, but I found the book extremely interesting because of the history, the great story that you had, and the stories within the story. Just fascinating, well done, and much appreciated. So, I appreciate you being on here today, too. So thank you, John.

John Eisenberg
Thank you.

---

Joe Ziemba, the author of numerous books, including the famous When Football was Football: The Chicago Cardinals and the Birth of the NFL, gives a foreshadow of his upcoming novel Bears versus Cardinals: The NFLs Oldest Rivalry. Joe is the host of the When Football was Football Podcast and has an earlier written book of the same name, among various other works. Ziemba Written Book


-Transcript of Joe Ziemba on his Bears vs Cardinals book

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And we have a great interview session tonight. We're gonna talk to our friend. It's the author of multiple books on football, especially Chicago area football. That's Joe Ziemba, and his latest book is out. Bears versus Cardinals, the NFL's oldest rivalry. It is a very interesting title and a very interesting topic. Very interesting author. We'll bring them in right now. Joe Ziemba, welcome back to the Pigpen.

Joe Ziemba
Oh, Darin, thanks so much for having me back again. It's been a while since I saw the pig pen has been remodeled. It looks nice and clean, and really ready and anxious to talk about the Bears and the Cardinals.

Darin Hayes
Hey, we kept your spot open at the trough here at the pig pen, so you're always welcome here. It's been much too long, and that's my fault. I need to have you on more. More Joe is always a good thing.

Joe Ziemba
And we appreciate that. Thanks so much for letting me babble on a few times. So it's it's all good. It's all about the history of pro football.

Darin Hayes
Well, it's probably hard to make an appointment with you because I'm seeing all over social media, and I live, you know, 800 miles away from you. And it seems like you're booked on something almost every evening talking about, you know, the Bears and the Cardinals and your wonderful book. You know, you're on quite the tour-a-lura.

Joe Ziemba
And, you know, people always say they're living the dream. And right now, it is great because the book has come out, and a lot of libraries and different organizations have asked me to talk about the book. And I don't really promote the book. Obviously, I'd like to market it, so that's part of it. But it gives me the opportunity to talk about the Bears and Cardinals. You meet so many interesting people. I gave a talk this week at a library, and an 89-year-old young lady came up and said she was a Bear season ticket holder on the 50-yard line and her cousin knew George Alice. And she knew exactly what I was talking about when we go back to the early fifties in these talks. And even the fact with old photos where the referees were kind of dressed up with a suit and tie and a hat. And she said I remember those guys. So it was, it's kind of neat. You meet different types of people. And I really enjoy that as much as giving the talks.

Darin Hayes
Well, you're definitely hitting a great nerve with the public. I'm sure they're going ecstatic about it up in Chicago. You know, people, the old Cardinals fans are remembering it. Of course, the Bears fans, uh, new and older, probably enjoying hearing this, uh, you know, relishment of, uh, history. And you have quite a bit of history. That's somewhat forgotten, and a lot of people didn't know about it. Um, maybe you could talk about that a little bit. Yeah.

Joe Ziemba
The history of both teams is quite unusual. Both teams had fires in their storage units, and I'm not sure exactly when, Darin, but I think it was in the fifties. And so a lot of the history was lost, which means that history that may have been written before was taken as being the truth. Now, we do have some documentation, for example, with the Bears. George Halas wrote his autobiography, which came out in the early seventies or late sixties, I believe. It first came out in the Chicago Tribune as a multi-day series. But George was writing this stuff many decades after it occurred. And it's not a big deal. It certainly doesn't matter, but there are a few errors in there. One of the bigger ones that I saw was that I questioned whether George Helles and the Decatur Staley's voluntarily left Decatur in 1921. Again, you say, who cares? But as you and I are historians, you kind of enjoy that stuff and that information. And I think it's kind of interesting in the book where we're able to track down why I don't think George Helles left voluntarily. We in Chicago are certainly glad that he did because the Bears are here right now. And there's something similar with the Cardinals. The Cardinal's history just did not make sense when I did my last book a few centuries ago called When Football Was Football because I was looking up as much as I could, and I really kind of went deep in research as much as possible and found out that the dates that the Cardinals continue to publicize are inaccurate. And there's nothing wrong with that. Who cares if we're off a little bit 125 years ago or whatever? It's been fun in this latest book on the rival; I was able to document where the history was stretched a little bit and who did it. And when all that stuff comes together, and you've got a pile of information, you want to make sense of it; I hope that readers will now make sense of the history of both teams and that maybe some of that stuff isn't quite accurate and that we've been led to believe. That includes the date when the Cardinals started and how the team got its name. There are a couple of old stories that, indeed, weren't true. One, for example, said in 1920 that the owner of the Cardinals challenged the Chicago Tigers for the right to represent Chicago, and whoever lost the game would hand over their franchise to the other team. And we found out there's absolutely no truth to that, but it made for a good story. Again, we try to provide the reasons why that was not accurate and what happened after that. So lots of fun. And as you mentioned, people are getting into it. We have a lot of nice discussions at these meetings. Again, last week, a lady in the audience who again had been a season ticket holder came up to me beforehand. This talks about the rivalry and how tough it was back then. She said I hope you're not talking about the Cardinals. I said, well, yeah, it's part of the book. So I have to do that. She said, well, I'm a Bears fan all the way through. And then we'll have older Cardinals fans who remember and say, did Hellas kick them out of Chicago? And I'll say, well, he certainly helped. And part of that reason was George Hellas authorized a half million dollars to the Cardinals in 1960 to leave town. Even though the real reason was the blackouts and the TV rights, which happens when you have a city with two NFL teams at the same time, the only city that had that. So, the Bears did have something to do with the Cardinals leaving the city of Chicago.

Darin Hayes
you bring up a lot of different topics there that are, like, I have interest peaks going all over the place. I'm sure the readers do, too. But maybe let's start at the beginning because, although we found out earlier, I don't read the acknowledgments in books very well. But I do like to read the preface of books. And you have a very interesting opening, and sort of a personal opening, where you talk about a period in your life and a person in your life that sort of helped propel this book.

Joe Ziemba
Exactly, Darren. And it was my dad who played college football. He went to Mount Carmel High School in Chicago and then went to a little place called St. Benedict's in Kansas. At that time, there were no real divisions, either at big schools or small schools. St. Benedict's, which is now Benedictine in Atchison, was considered a smaller school, although they played Creighton in New Mexico State and Wichita State. He was named first-team All-American. After that, he apparently received a lot of letters from places like George Ellis, the Bears, and the Detroit Lions. There was a draft in place. And he did get drafted by the Cardinals in the 12th round, I think of the 1940 draft. But he never talked about his football experience. He was a coach. And he's actually inspired all three of my books because of coaching and his experience. But I've always wanted to find out more about what happened. And ultimately, he got injured in training camp. I found a magazine where he made the final roster; I think it was 32 players at the time. But it would have been a simple arthroscopic surgery now. But then he figured, why go through the pain? And besides, Darren could make more money coaching high school football than he could as a professional football player in the National Football League back in the 40s. So here's my question, Darin: what do you think this contract called for in terms of payment?

Darin Hayes
Oh, let's see. We're talking, um, so be the Cardinals, and in 1940, you said, yes, yes. Pre World War II. I'm going to say, uh, a hundred bucks a game.

Joe Ziemba
right there. The rookie contract called for $110 a game. But they had to provide their own shoulder pads and cleats. So maybe it did come down to 100. And they didn't get paid if they missed a game because of injury. So, that is all the more reason for him to check out of the hospital and become a high school coach. But yeah, great guess, great guess

Darin Hayes
Oh, the other thing that piqued my interest was that you talked about these fires that both the Cardinals and the Bears had; you know, it was two separate fires, right? It wasn't; they didn't keep all their records in the same place, and there was a fire.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, they have different headquarters. And so, uh, someday it's one of those things we always say as researchers, I want to look into then see if I can define exactly when the dates were for those, but, uh, without a lot of the records and we're going by hearsay or things that have been published through the years that have just taken his truth and, and more so for the Cardinal side than the bears, uh, we found out that a lot of this information started in the forties or fifties about that game between the Cardinals and the Tigers, for example, and about how the team got its name, you know, one of the things that always has kind of bugged me was it said that crystal Brian, the owner of the Cardinals in 1899, when the team started, uh, bought used jerseys from the University of Chicago named a Solonzo stag, and stagged and not liked the idea of professionalism. He caused a big bruja in the early twenties by syndicating a national letter talking about how evil professional football was, but I wanted to see it for sure. And I was able to, uh, see if the jerseys match; first of all, Crystal Brian was 17 or 18 years old. He certainly didn't own the team, and Stagg was unlikely to sell jerseys, but I had a chance to go to the University of Chicago, which keeps extensive records of coach Stagg's, uh, all those financial dealings, and this correspondence, I could not find anything, which doesn't mean much, but they did have photos. I do have a photo of the Cardinals in 1900 when they were known as the Morgan athletic club, and the photos don't match, even though they're not in color. So that's the kind of research that has helped me to understand that there might be little errors here and there as we move through history. Again, it doesn't affect the team today, but we're not changing history, but kind of correcting it or adjusting it a little bit.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I always thought that story was kind of odd, too, because, you know, the Chicago, of course, was the maroon. So, I'm assuming they probably had a maroon-colored Jersey. And you know, they've come up with a Cardinal red out of that out of the maroon. I just don't get that either. That doesn't make much sense either.

Joe Ziemba
Oh, that's why when the team started in 1901, it was called the Cardinal Social and Athletic Club, not named after a bird or a uniform and crystal Brian certainly didn't own the team, although he and his brother and one other gentleman started the first version of the Cardinals in 1899. But yeah, Maroons does not match Cardinal Red, at least in my opinion, Darren.

Darin Hayes
All right. Now, George Hallis is always an interesting subject. You know, I have sort of a love-hate relationship. I don't know if everybody else does, but I have a sort of love-hate relationship. I look through him through history. You know, there are some things that he did that were just spectacular, both as him as an athlete, and some of the great things that he did is starting the NFL and, you know, keeping Decatur and Chicago, those teams, going and what he did for the game, but other things, you know, I sit there, and I look at some of these sorts of sly little maneuvers he would make to put the Bears in title contention, you know, you know, back, you know, there's probably at least three or four stories where the Bears were in second place, and he sort of tried to swindle or did swindle another team into playing an extra game to try to gain an advantage for his team, which you can't blame a guy for doing. It just seems a little bit underhanded by today's standards.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, and a good example would be Buffalo. I believe that was 1921 when the Bears invited Buffalo to come to Chicago. Um, supposedly for an exhibition game, and somehow the league counted the game, which the Bears won as a regular season game, even though there are two or three reasons why it shouldn't have been considered, but back then, there were no playoffs, the league champion was decided by a vote of the owners at the end of the season, factually the next year. And so in the book, what I've tried to do to present all sides is to have some of the authors who have written on that, like Jeff Miller, has written extensively on Buffalo, and get his opinion. He was helpful in providing some articles from the Buffalo newspapers. And we see that along the way, even with red grains, um, joining the Bears in 1925, the day after he finished his college career. And the rule was that the pros weren't going to touch the college players. And with the assumption that, yeah, he could sign them once their class graduated, of course, Hallis took it as well. Red Grange finished his college career on Saturday. On Sunday, he was with the Bears, although Chris Willis, I think you've talked to a few times, who wrote the exceptional, uh, biography of Red Grange, tells us that, yeah, the maneuvers were going on well before that Saturday after Grange's final game. Then, we also tell a story about Joseph Aldi in 1930, a rookie out of Notre Dame who committed a terrible, grievous crime. Can you guess what he did during your Notre Dame fan?

Darin Hayes
The name and the story sound familiar, but I can't put my finger on what he did.

Joe Ziemba
Well, what he did was terrible. He got married. You couldn't get married in Notre Dame. And remain it's, you know, they got kicked off the football team, but out of school. So Curly Lambeau was searching around for that to bring Joseph Aldi up to Green Bay, and Alice was there as well. And supposedly, there was some backroom talk that both would lay off Joseph Aldi, the same argument: his class didn't graduate. Alice interpreted that as well. He played his final game, and he can't play anymore anyway. So I'll sign them. He signed them to a $4,000 contract, second only to Bronko Nagurski's $5000 a year. And, of course, that brought up some hard feelings. The NFL did get involved. Halis and Savaldi, I guess, decided he was going to make more money as professional wrestlers. But Dallas, as you mentioned the questions, there are two or three examples of where he may have stretched the truth a little bit. But what a fantastic man, and what a great coach and player he was for many years till he retired in his late 20s. And all he did to keep football going, as he said once, he didn't know if he could take any money out of the team. He and Dutch Sternaman, who was his partner, wanted to give each other $100 a game back in the early 20s if they had $100 left. Of course, now the Bears are worth $ 5.2 billion. So Halis did something right.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's a good investment on his part. Now, that brings up another question, something that I've always had a little bit of. You know, Mr. A. E. Staley was the original sponsor of the team with his starch company, I believe you're in. Halas was a player and coach, I believe, in the very first year of the end of the APFA 1920. Right? Am I correct so far? You are. Yep. Okay. So when they came through the next year of the year after, when Staley sort of washed his hands off the team, he gave the team $5,000 to Hallis.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, that is correct. And that was midway through 1921. Alice had toyed with playing games in Chicago in 1920, and then in 1921, others were scheduled to draw a bigger crowd. From my recollection, the home games in Decatur, Illinois, could only seat about 1500 people. And so for Staley, this was a great investment if you look at it as a pure marketing endeavor, where his team was mentioned in newspapers all over the country as the league started to get more publicity. But I think he was drowning and lost in expenses with sponsoring teams. He had a baseball team that traveled all over and, of course, football, and the players worked at the Staley company. Alice worked out a deal with Mr. Staley, where the football team could practice a couple hours a day on company time. So it was a great deal for them. But in that letter in 1921, way at the bottom of it, it says, and please be understood, as he's saying to Alice, once you leave Decatur, don't come back is essentially what Mr. Staley said. So, in the book, I've kind of worked on that and found some other quotes, and as you might see, as you read through it, I don't think George Hallis left Decatur voluntarily. In fact, I'm pretty certain of it, and I tried to lay out the reasons and the proof of why that might have happened. But yeah, it was a great deal for a while. And then, unfortunately, the Staley's dropped in January of 22, I believe, all their sports, and a lot of the townspeople and, of course, some of the employees who were working or playing on those teams were quite upset. A cartoon appeared, which is in the book as well, that showed the different products produced by the Staley company. They were kind of pushed aside because Mother Staley was holding the football and the new baby and giving preference over the other children from the company.

Darin Hayes
Now, why do you think that he, that Mr. Staley gave, given the teams, one thing that's, I mean, probably a decent expense right there? Maybe it was just to get rid of him having to spend money, but why give Alice, you know, the sum of $ 5,000, which was pretty good money back in the early 20th century?

Joe Ziemba
Absolutely. Yeah. 5,000 was a lot of money and got Hellas through the season. But I think that was to really encourage Hellas to take the team, and they defined it as being advertising money because the team would be known as the Chicago Staley's. Even though they completed the 1921 season in Chicago, they kept the name Staley's. It wasn't until 1922 that the Chicago Bears were incorporated, which was a whole different story. It was through the fiasco of Hellas trying to incorporate the team or even having a franchise in the league that the NFL finally recognized him. But yeah, the $5,000, I think, was to really encourage George Hellas and the football team to go away and not come back.

Darin Hayes
Oh, okay. So not only naming rights, but yeah, get out of Dodge, go to Chicago, or go elsewhere. Anyway. Okay. Interesting. Well, let's take a break. I mean, that's some great news. Those are some great things in the book. Let's take the opportunity to, once again, say the name of your book and where folks can get it, Joe.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, the name of the book is Bears versus Cardinals, the NFL's oldest rivalry. It's from McFarland; you can order directly from the publisher or the usual online sources like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Target, which all carry the book. So it's pretty easy to get online.

Darin Hayes
Okay, now you have it called Bears versus Cardinals. So obviously, they played some games against each other, and there was a rivalry, I'm assuming when they both played in the same town. Maybe you could hit some of the highlights of some of the big games and rivalry-type things that happened between these two franchises.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, I tried to go back because every time I do research and I'd see a Bears-Cardinals game, it still seems to end up in a fight or fight among the stands in the stands or fight on the field, or everybody combined and had a good time getting into a fight. So, I wanted to find out where the rivalry started. And actually, it centers around Paddy Driscoll, P A D D Y, who was a halfback out of Northwestern and actually played outfield one season for the Chicago Cubs. And, of course, since he was still in college, he lost his college eligibility. He played in the Great Lakes Naval Station team that won the 1919 Rose Bowl. He and George Halas later played for the Hammond Pros in 1919. So the reason I'm telling you this is that Halas and Driscoll had a nice relationship as players. Driscoll functions as a quarterback. Halas is the end. Halas was the MVP of the 1919 Rose Bowl. But when the pro league started in 1920, there was great excitement when Halas was recruiting all these players for the Staley's because he signed the legendary Patty Driscoll. And that was great news: a big name came to Decatur. And then, quietly, about a week later, the newspapers reported Patty Driscoll signed with the Chicago Cardinals, then known as the racing Cardinals. So Halas may have been a little upset with the Cardinals, but his pursuit of Driscoll never stopped. In the early part of 1922, we learned from the newspaper, from the paperwork that I found with the state of Illinois, that Hallis not only recruited Driscoll to play for him but made him an owner with Hallis and Dutch Sterneman of the newly incorporated Chicago Bears. Of course, Chris O 'Brien, who by then was the manager of the Cardinals, went nuts and went to the league because one of the reasons for starting the NFL was to prohibit or eliminate players jumping from team to team. And Hallis was given a slap on the wrist and told that now you couldn't touch Patty Driscoll; he was the property of the Cardinals, which he was. At the time, the highest-paid player in the league was $300 a game, while some of the players were still getting $25 or even $10. So the story didn't end there because in November, Thanksgiving day in 1922, I think you and I have talked about this before, Bears and the Cardinals played, and Halas and Joey Sterneman, the brother of Dutch Sterneman, not only tackled Driscoll but picked him up and head slammed him into the ground. And that led to quite a ride on the field. Fans got involved, and the police got involved. The story appeared in the newspapers about George Hallis being knocked down, and a fan was straddling him with a pistol pushed up against George Hallis' head. And so it just seemed like every time the teams played, there'd be some kind of fiasco. In fact, it was rare. And the other thing about the rivalry, and this is, we talked about Crystal Bryan going nuts. I go nuts when I watch television when the Bears and the Packers play. And it said the NFL's oldest rivalry. And that happened again, most recently, but it was the Bears and the Cardinals. When the Bears were the Stalies and the Cardinals were still the racing Cardinals, they played the year before the Packers even entered the league. But that's not the reason I wrote the book. I just found the stories on both sides so fascinating that it went from a competition. It was mostly the players who didn't like each other. You can even find Ernie Nevers talking about 1929, scoring 40 points against the Bears, which is still an NFL record for one game, and why he did it. And you go into the fifties with Ed Sprinkle, the Bears, and Charlie Trippi taking turns knocking each other out on the field. Fans are jumping. I think it was 1957 or 58, jumping on the field to join in a fight. And even when the Cardinals ended up in Chicago, they moved to March of 1960. But at the end of 58, they wanted to play at Dyke Stadium, Northwestern University, and Hallis invoked an old, old agreement that absolutely no one in Chicago would hear of called the Madison Street Agreement. And that simply stated the Cardinals could not play north of Madison Street, which ran east-west in Chicago, and the Bears could not play south. With this agreement, Erp Bell, who was a commissioner at the time, ruled that now they'd have to support the Bears, and the Cardinals could not move to Northwestern. And some great help on that one because Upton Bell, the son of Burt Bell, was just very gracious with his time and gave me some insight. And the Pro Football Hall of Fame had the minutes from the meeting. Just again, the rivalry started right then, in 1920 or so, and went to when the Cardinals left. So there's plenty of activity sandwiched in between.

Darin Hayes
That's tremendous. You said that the Cardinals left in 1959. Is that what you said?

Joe Ziemba
1960 marks of 60. Yeah.

Darin Hayes
Okay, and that you said to Halas, I think you just said at the beginning of this conversation that Halas gave money to them to encourage them to leave.

Joe Ziemba
Yes. And it's been in the newspapers that there are a couple of things they were concerned about. One was that the new American Football League was getting involved in Chicago or stealing the Cardinals and moving them somewhere, possibly St. Louis, where the Cardinals were not making money. That's pretty much accepted. And so at least the newspapers at the time said, and more than one resource said, that George Halas gave the Cardinals $500,000 to assist them with moving expenses. That gave him the rights to all the television showings in Chicago; games were blacked out if one team was playing at home and the other was away. A goofy role, but it lasted for years and years. And that was primarily why the Cardinals left town, although the Halas financial incentive certainly helped them.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I mean, 1960, half a million dollars is a good chunk of change. That's probably very encouraging for a franchise to move. You know, it's peanuts today. That's probably what they pay the guy who launders the shirts nowadays in the NFL. But yeah, it's very interesting. So, Joe, you know, it is tremendous that you were able to come on here and talk about this, and I'm so glad that you were able to write this book and record this because your research is impeccable. And your storytelling is everybody loves it. Make sure folks listen to Joe's podcast. He's on a couple of times a month. You have a podcast.

Joe Ziemba
Right, yeah. Well, we're just talking a little bit about our network.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, what can you tell them about the podcast?

Joe Ziemba
Well, the podcast is called When Football Was Football. And what we talk about is any kind of old football in Chicago; it's the Bears and the Cardinals, but we've talked about a high school a couple of times and maybe a couple of college things. And some of the individuals you may not have heard about, we've talked about Shorty Ray a couple of weeks ago, who really revised the way officiating is done in the National Football League. This week's episode talks about Jack Glynn, who is one of the resources I had for this game. He was a 19-year-old general manager of the Cardinals back in 1919, a great story. His family had kept his documents for over a hundred years. In fact, his niece, I believe it would be, is a nun and a missionary in Bolivia. And she was the one who uncovered these documents after all these years. You know, and speaking of documents, before we go on, Darin, I wanna mention my personal thanks to John Kendall and the Pro Football Hall of Fame. A lot of what we talk about is based on the Dutch Sterneman papers. In the Sterneman papers, Sterneman was George Halas's partner from the 1920s until the early 30s. The family kept all the Bears' financial records at that time. That's what Sternemann did. So we know what the salaries were. And I talked earlier about Bronco Nogersky and Joe Savaldi, the contracts for different games, and even how much a mechanic in the North side of Chicago who was paid $4 a game plus a pass to go scout for the Bears back then. And so I was able to use a ton of stuff. Thanks again to John Kendall and the Pro Football Hall of Fame, which is probably, in my opinion, the greatest collection they have, which is the Sternemann papers.

Darin Hayes
Wow. You get to actually go into the Hall of Fame and use the research facility when you're doing research.

Joe Ziemba
for your book, correct? Yes, yes. The Hall of Fame has always been very receptive. I don't know why they let me in, but they do. And the sternum and papers came out for a couple of years. They were kind of off base. The reason why was that the Hall of Fame was categorizing everything. And so now they've all been put in boxes. There's a nice index of what is where, and it made it really easy. I was also able to make copies of the documents that were specific to my research. So John Kendall has been there every step of the way as an archivist at the Hall of Fame. And I just can't thank him enough. And a lot of other people helped as well. Chris Willis from NFL Films. You've always been encouraging. I mentioned Jeff Miller, Upton Bell, and John Steffenhagen, who's an expert on the Rochester Jeffersons. A lot of great folks have been able to help out with this research. So, I thank them publicly.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, no, I guess maybe we'll put you mentioning all those names. Maybe we should put a little bit of a plug-in for the PFRA, the Professional Football Research Association. We are going to be having a meeting in 2023 in Pittsburgh, where pro football started. George Bizika and the gang are organizing this great venture to take that down there. So, if folks, if you're interested in real professional football history and some great things, we had a big meeting last year in Canton at the Hall of Fame and some places around our Maslin and the city of Canton. But, you know, this Pittsburgh trip seems to be very intriguing as well, and it is full of football history going back to the La Trobe Athletic Clubs and things like that. So, I know they have some great guests lined up and some great events. If you're interested in that, you can contact us here at Pigskin Dispatch, which is pigskindispatch@gmail.com, or go to the PFRA website. And I believe it's professional football researchers dot org. I think I might have that off, but it's something like that. But yeah, we'd like to see you, and you will meet folks. Usually, Joe's there. I'm there. You know, he talked about Jeff Miller and possibly Chris Willis might be there. There are a lot of people who usually show up, including football historians and experts in the field. And it's just some great camaraderie. And you get to rub elbows with some really knowledgeable people about football.

Joe Ziemba
It is a great time. And again, all you gotta do is for me because I can't remember all the letters. I go P F R A, and it usually shows up, and the website is open to nonmembers as well. So, if you want to look around there, there is a member section that you have to remember, obviously, to take a look at. But we're expecting a great, great meeting next year. George, as you mentioned, and Darin always do a wonderful job of putting it together. And he's also the mastermind behind the book series that the PFRA has been putting out for the last few years.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, absolutely. Great. A lot of great resources. And when it's saying a membership fee, it's very inexpensive. I believe it's like $35, $40 a year. And I think the whole weekend, the three-day weekend, is like $75 if you remember next, next summer. It is so very affordable. You know, of course, your room and meals are separate. I think they do include one or two meals in there, too, for $75, but it is well worth the money. The history you get to see, experience, and learn about is especially phenomenal.

Joe Ziemba
Yeah, it's something I've always enjoyed attending, and it's almost like Disneyland for football people who love their history. Every time you turn around and take breaks in the hallway, you are able to talk to folks who just have that passion and that love of pro football history. It's it's really exceptional.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Joe, I really appreciate you coming on here. Why don't we give the folks one more time the name of your book and where they can get it? And if you want to share any social media that you have

Joe Ziemba
Oh, thanks so much, Darin. Yeah, the book is called Bears versus Cardinals, the NFL's oldest rivalry, available from McFarland books or Amazon pride to be the two easiest places. I also have a Twitter account, which is called Cards Chicago, and a Facebook account for Chicago Cards; if you want to just look up Chicago Cards, there are over 12,000 people now who follow the Chicago Cardinals Facebook. Again, we take great pleasure in uncovering those types of stories that you may not see very often. And so we'd invite you to join us and continue our investigation, our history, and our enjoyment of old-time professional football.

Darin Hayes
Well, Joe Ziemba, you know, is a historian, podcaster, and author. We thank you once again for sharing your great knowledge and your stories and your time with us again tonight.

Joe Ziemba
And thank you so much, Darin, for all you're doing to protect and preserve the history of football. In fact and, your podcasts are amazing. I don't know how you do it, but congratulations, keep up the good work. And thank you so much for having me here.

Darin Hayes
Sure. I think people call it an illness. At least, that's what my wife calls it. Thanks, Joe.

Joe Ziemba
Thank you.

---

The Football Archaeology of the Football Men Who Endorsed and helped Goldsmith Sporting Goods to make football equipment in 1935.

Helmets are probably the first piece of equipment we think of when someone asks us about football. The head covering may be the most recognizable element of the gridiron.

Timothy Brown, like many of us, is enamored by the evolution of the football helmet as a product and safety device. Tim collects football catalogs selling the equipment and then dives into the variations and innovations that were derived along the way.

In a recent post, 1935 GoldSmith Sports Equipment Consulting Staff, Tim delved into the 1935 Coaching Consultants and reps that GoldSmith had and then came on to share what he found with us on a podcast episode.

-Transcription of 1935 GoldSmith Sports Equipment Consulting Staff with Timothy Brown

Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to another Tuesday as we get to visit with our friend Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.

Thank you, sir. Look forward to chatting again, as always, and hopefully we'll have something interesting for people to listen to.

Yeah, you, Tim, you have some amazing things happening, you know, each and every day, and every once in a while you get some of these zingers that like, just like, I can't call it an earworm, I don't know what it is, it just, it stays with me all day when I read it. I read it in the evening and it stays with me through the night. I'm laying in bed thinking about it, wake up next morning, and one of those is, you keep going into the Goldsmith's catalog, and you had one that, you know, that you had back in September out as a tidbit that talks about some staff that Goldsmith's catalog got some information from, so maybe you could talk a little bit about that tonight.

Yeah, so, you know, so I guess, you know, first off, just, you know, by way of background, I have something on the order, you know, 30 or 40 vintage sporting goods catalogs, you know, so I collect them over time, or I've collected them over time, it's just a way to be able to look up, okay, well, you know, some of it's just images, you know, for the tidbits, but it's also just, you know, you can look at them and understand, okay, this is what this equipment was made of at the time, and how things changed and things that they created that disappeared because they didn't really work very well, or they were uncomfortable, you know, whatever it may have been. Anyways, I collect these catalogs, and most of them, I'm just, you know, I'm buying them online, and so I don't, typically, I'm only seeing like cover photographs, a couple of inside pages, but I don't know what, you know, it's not like, you know, it can be a 90 page catalog, but I'm only seeing images of a couple of them. Anyways, this was one of those, you know, I bought this, Goldsmith was a big brand at the time, and I didn't have a lot of Goldsmith catalogs, so I, you know, picked this one up.
And, you know, then once it was delivered, it was like, right away, okay, this is really cool, because in addition to just normal pages, showing the equipment, the pricing and everything for shoulder pads and helmets and whatever, each of the different major types of equipment, they had a lead in cartoon page that kind of told the history of that type of equipment, the history of football shoes, the history of helmets. And so, it was, number one, it's just kind of fun imagery, they're interesting cartoons. So, it was just a way to, you know, kind of go through those, and then, you know, what I've done, you know, it's a series of, there will be an eighth week now, but, you know, so it's just a way to publish, to do these, show these cartoons, and then just go through the equipment of the time.

And so, this is mid-30s, you know, so what was equipment like, you know, then. And so, this, the first of those cartoons was about what they called their consulting staff. And so, that was, you know, essentially, consulting staff was like, the coaches, and one trainer, who were their, like, their advisory staff, they were the guys who they would go to, to talk through, you know, what kinds of changes do we need for the equipment, or if they had a research and development group, they would show them, they'd show these coaches, hey, here's what we've come up with, what do you think about this? Can you have you guys wear this stuff in spring practice, or in regular practice, and see how it performs? You know, so they were, you know, obviously, these coaches were paid.

And in many cases, they, that, you know, the manufacturers would then, you know, just like your old baseball gloves, where it was like, the Mickey Mantle glove, or whatever, you know, there were, there were pants, and helmets, and footballs, that had the Newt Rockne name on it, or who met Pop Warner, and John Heisman, and, you know, so. Well, Tim, was, was Goldsmith, were they sort of in the Midwest? Is that what I'm getting a sense of? Or what part of the country were they centered out of? You know, a lot of the coaches that are on this advisory staff are Midwest guys. So, I kind of get a sense of that.

But, you know, there was a lot of Midwest, like D&M was out east, they were like a Massachusetts firm, but Spalding was Midwest, Reach, I believe, was Midwest, or a couple down in St. Louis. So, yeah, I don't have that catalog in front of me. But I could, you know, I could look, look it up.

And I can, you know, let you know, you know, kind of where they were based. Yeah, that's, that's what I was, Is there a reason you ask her? Well, I know that Spalding was out of Chicago, and it just seemed, you know, and it seems like, like you said, this, a lot of these coaches are Midwestern teams, Western Conference, Big Ten teams. And I just wondering, you know, if there was a reason why maybe, you know, distribution or something that they were in the center of the country because you really, you think about that area, you know, football starting in the east and moving west, you'd almost think the equipment would be more of an eastern-based, you know, industrial shipping out.

But just curious. Yeah, I think, well, my understanding is a lot of it was the stockyards in Chicago, you know, so there was access to leather. Okay, you know, so I mean, so much of the early equipment, yeah, so much of the early equipment was leather, that, you know, it made more sense to be where you could pick and choose and get high-grade leathers and yada, yada, yada.

So, yeah, I mean, it's funny, it's one of those things you wouldn't even think is, you know, there's no reason anymore, you know, to be near a source of leather.
Obviously, you know, baseball gloves are a different story. But otherwise, you know, most football equipment, there's no leather involved anymore.

And then the ball, you know, obviously, the balls were leather. So anyways, yeah, that's, that's why I love it, you know, started in the Midwest. That makes perfect sense.

Okay, thanks. Yeah, so, so then, you know, like these coaches were, you know, the folks that they had on at that point, so in 1935, they had a Hunk Anderson, who was at North Carolina State, but it just finished a tour at Notre Dame. So Midwest, then he had played at Notre Dame.

Noble Kizer was at Purdue. Fritz Crisler was at Princeton, but he had been at, he had played at Uof Chicago. He had coached Minnesota before going to Princeton.

And then obviously ended up at Michigan. Doc Spears had been all over. Well, he kind of he was a journeyman, he was actually a doctor, but a football coach, but he was at Wisconsin at the time.

And I can't remember if he had just gone there. I think he got fired after that, and then went out to Oregon, or it could have been the other way around. And then this guy, Frank Major Wandel, from Yale, who was, he was one of those interesting guys at the time, there were a lot of, it's kind of like, you know, there are these strength and conditioning coaches now who are, you know, kind of, they have their own brand, they're, they're nationally known, nationally recognized guys.

And, you know, back then, there were trainers like that, too. And he was one of them. So he'd been longtime trainer at West Point, and he ends up down at, I think it was LSU for a couple of years.

Then he ends up at Yale, which is where he was at at the time. So, so actually, the mix isn't that much Midwestern. But it's interesting, because the image that you have, and folks, if you've got to enjoy these images that Tim's talking about, we have link in the show notes, you can go to Tim's page and see some of these, he's talking about these cartoons.

But Major Wandel, you know, everybody else is sort of wearing like white knickers. And he's got like, I don't know if they're plaid knickers, or, but that's what jumps out of you on the page to me, is these knickers. And it's he's in the lower right hand corner of the page I'm looking at, but he must have been a character to have some like looks like he's golfing, maybe.

Yeah, I mean, he's one of those guys who just like came out of some gym in New Jersey, and ended up eventually hooking in with, he did some training, you know, during World War One, and then ends up at West Point for quite a while. But yeah, I mean, back then, trainers were function both. They handled both the kind of sports medicine side, you know, they weren't physicians.

But when we think about athletic training, we're thinking about, you know, hot baths, and cold baths, and, you know, taping guys, and, you know, some kind of contraption, you know, so it doesn't hurt, as well as strength and condition. So they were both at the time, and mostly conditioning, they didn't do as much strength work. But yeah, a lot of these guys were, you know, they're big on the whole, getting guys to roll on the ground to toughen them up.

Things that we now think are pretty absurd, but, you know, that was kind of core beliefs at the time. Yeah, I can remember back when I was playing when I was, like, I think the first year I played, maybe I was in fifth grade or something. I remember our coach, he was old school.

He was an older guy. And you'd have part of your calisthenics, you'd run in place, and then drop and make sure your stomach hits first, because that's going to toughen your gut up, you know, as everybody gets the wind knocked out of when you hit the ground, and you're gasping trying to get back up. But I picture that kind of training.

Yeah, that was the deal. But one of the things I thought was kind of cool, I can't remember, you know, which eater left this as a comment or a question, but, you know, I'm a Purdue fan. And, you know, there were a lot of schools back in the 30s that wore winged helmets, right? I mean, we now associated with just a select few schools.

But back then, it was very common. Nevertheless, you know, this guy made a comment that you know, back in the 30s, mid-30s, in particular, Purdue wore winged helmets, you know, so wing in front straps, you know, going back, kind of, you know, the Michigan, Delaware, Princeton style now. But she's like, so that's where you know because Noble was one of these advisory coaches.

And so I would bet if you look at images of the Purdue team from that era, there probably weren't some, some form of Goldsmith helmet, right? So as opposed to some competitive brand. So anyways, but for him, it was kind of a neat insight because it's like, so that's why they were those, those stupid. Now, with these coaches, sort of being on the board of directors, or the consultants of the now the day, is that, you know, their teams buy all their equipment from a Goldsmith, then is that was that's part of the deal of, you know, I've never really seen anything that goes into the details of those kinds of contracts.

I mean, I've read a few things about Knute Rockne because he was like, I mean if you think that there's somebody that, that is on every commercial nowadays, like, you know, save been, you know, down in Alabama's on a fair amount of stuff. But Rockne was, I mean, he was pitching, obviously, all kinds of athletic equipment. And then he pitched Ramblers or Studebakers, you know, one of those brands, he made coffee, he did all you know, stuff for Kelloggs, a lot of stuff for Kelloggs, and they had coffee at the time.

I just thought Barbasol was big on Barbasol. So he was from a Holmes and Travis Kelsey, eat your hearts out. Newt Rocky was first.

That's right. Major sponsor ambassador. Yeah.

Okay, so well, yes. Did the coach or did the teams buy that brand of equipment? And so I've never really, you know, I've never seen anything definitive. In that regard, and I have this kind of a storyline I've never checked into.

You know, I have read a number of things with Newt Rocky and his, you know, he, he promoted a lot of different kinds of consumer goods, but then also a lot of football equipment. So I mean, I have to believe that they, at minimum, they benefited from the, you know, they got discounts on the equipment, and in some cases, free stuff in order to test it, you know, it had to be that kind of thing going on. But, you know, the research I've done in the past about, you know, like when logos first came, you know, when logos became prominent in the 60s, really Adidas, you know, among track athletes that whole thing got going, and they were, you know, giving away equipment, paying athletes to wear their branded goods.

So that's really where that started. But there were probably, you know, less, you know, maybe a little bit less formal, you know, kinds of, you know, deals in the past, right? You know, yeah, I'm just picturing like a high school coach or athletic director saying, Hey, you know, Fritz Kreisler's endorsing this product, goldsmith, we better write our equipment there, because, you know, we're, we're Fritz Kreisler fans, or, you know, you know, Hunky Anderson fans, whatever, you know, they see they're endorsing it. And, you know, that's probably a lot of the attraction from for having them on the covers.

Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure they got that they got paid something just like, you know, the baseball gloves. And, you know, those athletes got things, and somehow they get money when their gloves are sold.

Right. So right. But, you know, the details of it, I don't understand, or, you know, really know anything about.

I wonder, I picture, you know because you have some great images of the helmets. I wonder maybe, you know, we can look back at some old photographs. Maybe I'll do that in some spare time here and look and see if you can tell a goldsmith helmet from, you know, a Spalding or some of the other manufacturers.
And maybe you can tell that way and say, Hey, you know, Purdue was wearing a goldsmith in 37 or. Yeah. And yeah.

Well, even in that article, I did do that. I couldn't find a good sharp image of the Princeton team from that era to see, well, what helmet they wore? Well, in fact, what I, the only thing I really found was a, it was a painting or an illustration from a year, you know, Princeton yearbook. And the helmets of Princeton players are wearing what we think of as a classic winged helmet.

It was. There's a helmet style. It kind of looks like, now I'm blanking on the term, but it's kind of like a three-leaf clover sort of design. It's, you know, so anyway, but, you know, and Goldsmith offered that helmet and, or that style of helmet, but I think others did as well.

So sometimes it's hard to tell like what brand, because, you know, people, you know, they, they wore, you know, they had similar designs, you know, different brands. Okay. Gotcha.

All right. So go ahead and continue. Yeah.

Well, I was mostly just gonna say, I'm not sure, you know, I'm just, I put together some notes in advance. And so I don't know that I had had anything else. I mean, other than just one of the things that's pretty remarkable, as in all the catalogs or in all the different products, is it like on helmets, you could go from, like, say, a $15 helmet down to like one that costs $2 and 35 cents.

So the, you know, they, they end up having these high end helmets, and then, then there's kind of moderately priced ones, and then there's pretty inexpensive helmets. And so you just gotta, you know, it's like now, every helmet has to meet a certain base at least, you know, performance level, you know, based on Noxi. But, you know, back then, it was like, well, no, we, this is a helmet, it's good.

You know, but there's no measurement standards or anything. It's just like you're taking somebody's word for it. Yeah, that leads into one of the questions I was gonna ask you because the the ad for the helmets that you have on this tidbit, you know, it has three examples of helmets that they were promoting.

And all of them say leather lined. Now, what would be the alternative to leather-lined in that era? Would it be like, you know, cloth or something? Or, you know? Yeah, I think the internals were either leather or felt for the most part. And so you'll, you'll also see things.

You pretty much have to look at the less expensive ones to get a handle on the alternatives. For example, moleskin was kind of a high-end material for pants. It was not as popular in the 1930s, but it was still a high-end material.

Canvas was a low-end material. And then there might be different kinds of twills and maybe duck and whatever. I don't even know what some of those things really are, that they're one form of cotton, you know, material or another, but then by the 30s, you were getting into, you know, silk, and a lot of times it's like airplane cloth, which is actually a form of silk.

So silk, and then I'm blanking on the kind of the really shiny material that satin, you'd see that satin, yeah, it's so you'd see satin on the front of you know, certain, certain teams pants. So yeah, I mean, some of it was once they got into some of the, the not-so-like silk, one of the real values of it was lighter, much more water repellent, you know, so it didn't soak up sweat and, you know, water in a rainy situation. So the players, you know, felt lighter, but it also silk is much easier to dye.

And you can do a much broader range of colors, whereas the duck and canvas pretty much always had earth tones, you know, one or tone or another. So everybody wore kind of the same look in pants until New York versus wearing purple pants. So, you know, I mean, it's, you think about it, that was a big deal.

Awesome. Somebody, hey, they're wearable pants. Right? Yeah, I was just trying to go when you were saying, you know, that from the $15 helmet down to the $2 and 35 cent helmet, I'm picturing, you know, hey, you know, varsity players, you get the $15 helmet with a leather lined and freshmen, you're going to get the burlap lined helmets, you know, uncomfortable.

Yeah, well, I'm sure that sure that was short, obviously, the freshmen who were wearing the stuff, those latest and greatest 10 years ago. Right. And the thing on some of that is, I was looking at, so I'm still writing, you know, writing one of these, and it there's, there's kind of like a flap in the back between kind of the ear hole area in the back.

It's got some kind of flexible extension, some kind of elastic band there. So there was that part of the sizing. If you look at the catalog, sometimes not a lot is said about helmet sizing.

And so, you know, I always had a big old water bucket head. So I needed a big helmet. I've got a younger brothers, you know, got a pinhead.

And, you know, so, but presumably, we would have been issued the same helmet. So, yeah, I'm sure they had some kind of size variations, but, you know, they don't talk about much of the catalog size variations. You had to stuff some straw or a rag in the back or something to make it stay on your head.

Tim, that's a fascinating stuff. And you've, you've got a lot of these goldsmiths that you've been coming out as you said, you had an eight-part series on it, but you have a lot of other interesting stuff coming out, you know, seven days a week. Maybe you could share with folks how they could get in touch with you to learn about your tidbits and read them each and every day.

Yeah. So, you know, so my preferring would be that it just visits the site and you subscribe. And, you know, that way, basically if you're subscribed, you can, you'll get the, you'll get the tidbit by email every night.

Cause I assume it's seven o'clock Eastern. If you, if you're a Substack reader, you can also just get it and follow me on Substack. And then, you know, you'll, you'll be able to get them every night.

Some people don't want the email, but there you go. They like getting it on Substack. I also, at least for now, tweet it every night.

And then I also posted on the application threads. So me on one of those, it's always Football Archaeology. You know, if you enter that, you'll find me.

And then it's kind of like happy reading. All right. Well, Timothy Brown, thank you.
Once again, footballarchaeology.com is the place to go and we appreciate you, sir. And we will talk to you again next Tuesday.

Very good.

Thank you. Thanks, Tim.

Transcribed by TurboScribe

The Green Bay Packers, a storied franchise with a rich history, have a relatively small but highly esteemed group of retired jersey numbers.

This exclusive honor is reserved for players who have made extraordinary contributions to the team and the sport.  

The Packers' retired numbers represent a pantheon of football legends. Players like Don Hutson, the revolutionary wide receiver, and Bart Starr, the iconic quarterback, have their jerseys enshrined in the rafters. These numbers are not merely digits but symbols of dominance, leadership, and unwavering dedication.

The team's commitment to honoring its greatest players is evident in the careful selection of numbers for retirement. Each jersey represents a chapter in the Packers' illustrious history, inspiring current and future generations of players and fans alike. As the Packers continue to build on their legacy, the retired numbers serve as a constant reminder of the extraordinary individuals who have shaped the franchise's identity.

Here are the honored players and their numbers that are not issued in Green Bay anymore:

-Jersey Number 3
Tony Canadeo 1941–1952

-Jersey Number 4
Brett Favre 1992–2007

-Jersey Number 14
Don Hutson 1935–1945

-Jersey Number 15
Bart Starr 1956–1971

-Jersey Number 66
Ray Nitschke 1958–1972

-Jersey Number 92
Reggie White 1993–1998

If you love football jersey designs and evolution, wait until you check out the History of American Football Jersey.

-Football Jersey Frequently Asked Questions

-What are American football jerseys made of? Modern jerseys are made of synthetic fibers such as polyester or a blend of different materials such as spandex. For more, check out our in-depth study of The Makeup and Materials of Football Jerseys.

-When did football jerseys start having numbers on them? Though there was documented talk of it since 1894, players only wore digits in a 1905 Iowa State at Drake game. Check out more on this story The Origins Of Football Player Numbers.

-Whose college football jersey was the first to be retired? Red Grange's Number 77 Ilinois Illini jersey was the first college uni shelved in 1925. There were a couple more about the same time, and we chatted with a college football expert historian to help divulge College Football and its First Retired Jerseys.

The Indianapolis Colts, a franchise with a rich history dating back to the 1950s, boasts a select group of retired jersey numbers. These numbers represent the pinnacle of achievement for players who have made extraordinary contributions to the team and the sport of football.

Among the most prominent retired jerseys is number 8, worn by the legendary quarterback Johnny Unitas. Unitas, a pioneer of the modern passing game, led the Colts to multiple NFL championships and is considered one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. His impact on the Colts' organization and the game itself is undeniable.

Another stellar Colts signal caller Peyton Manning also had his number 18 retired by the franchise.

Another iconic number retired by the Colts is number 70, donned by the late great offensive lineman, Art Donovan. Art, a fierce competitor and a pillar of the Colts' defense for over a decade, earned numerous accolades. His relentless pursuit of excellence and leadership on the field cemented his place in Colts history.

These retired jerseys serve as a constant reminder of the extraordinary individuals who have shaped the Indianapolis Colts' identity. They inspire current and future generations of players and fans alike, reminding them of the dedication, talent, and leadership required to achieve greatness.

Here are the honored players and their numbers that are not issued in Indy anymore:

-Jersey Number 18
Peyton Manning 1998–2011 Colts

-Jersey Number 19
Johnny Unitas 1956–1972

-Jersey Number 22
Buddy Young 1953–1955

-Jersey Number 24
Lenny Moore 1956–1967

-Jersey Number 70
Art Donovan 1953–1961

-Jersey Number 77
Jim Parker 1957–1967

-Jersey Number 82
Raymond Berry 1955–1967

-Jersey Number 89
Gino Marchetti 1953–1966

If you love football jersey designs and evolution, wait until you check out the History of American Football Jersey.

-Football Jersey Frequently Asked Questions

-What are American football jerseys made of? Modern jerseys are made of synthetic fibers such as polyester or a blend of different materials such as spandex. For more, check out our in-depth study of The Makeup and Materials of Football Jerseys.

-When did football jerseys start having numbers on them? Though there was documented talk of it since 1894, players only wore digits in a 1905 Iowa State at Drake game. Check out more on this story The Origins Of Football Player Numbers.

-Whose college football jersey was the first to be retired? Red Grange's Number 77 Ilinois Illini jersey was the first college uni shelved in 1925. There were a couple more about the same time, and we chatted with a college football expert historian to help divulge College Football and its First Retired Jerseys.

The Chicago Bears, one of the NFL's most storied franchises, have a rich history marked by legendary players.

The Bears' commitment to honoring their players is a testament to their greatness. The relatively small but highly esteemed group of retired jerseys is a symbol of the team's respect and appreciation for the contributions of these players. These numbers are more than just digits; they symbolize an era of dominance, innovation, and unwavering dedication to the game.

From the gridiron's early days to the modern era, the Bears have produced a roster of Hall of Famers whose impact on the franchise is immeasurable. Their jerseys, permanently removed from circulation, serve as a constant reminder of the team's illustrious past and the high standards set by these iconic figures.  

The Bears' retired numbers are a treasure trove of football lore, each a chapter in the team's captivating history. These jerseys represent the pinnacle of achievement in the NFL and the enduring impact of the players who earned this ultimate honor. Whether it's the bruising power of Walter Payton, the defensive genius of Mike Singletary, or the legendary coaching of George Halas, their influence on the Chicago Bears and the sport as a whole is undeniable.

-Jersey Number 3
Bronko Nagurski 1930–1937, 1943

-Jersey Number 5
George McAfee 1940–1941, 1945–1950

-Jersey Number 7
George Halas 1920- 1928

-Jersey Number 28
Willie Galimore 1957 -1963

-Jersey Number 34
Walter Payton 1975–1987

-Jersey Number 40
Gale Sayers 1965–1971

-Jersey Number 41
Brian Piccolo 1965–1969

-Jersey Number 42
Sid Luckman 1939–1950

-Jersey Number 51
Dick Butkus 1965–1973

-Jersey Number 56
Bill Hewitt 1932–1936

-Jersey Number 61
Bill George 1952–1965

-Jersey Number 66
Bulldog Turner 1940–1952

-Jersey Number 77
Red Grange 1925–1934

-Jersey Number 89
Mike Ditka 1961-1966

If you love football jersey designs and evolution, wait until you check out the History of American Football Jersey.

-Football Jersey Frequently Asked Questions

-Who is the most famous player that wore the jersey number 26 in NFL history? As you can see from our post above, there is plenty to choose from, but we will narrow it down to two great DBs, Herb Adderly of the Packers and Rod Woodson, best known for his time as a Steeler, both wore the number 26. You can learn more about this legend in our post about him here: Herb Adderly and Rod Woodson.

-What are American football jerseys made of? Modern jerseys are made of synthetic fibers such as polyester or a blend of different materials such as spandex. For more, check out our in-depth study of The Makeup and Materials of Football Jerseys.

-What are some of the most unique football jerseys in history? Gridiron jerseys with logos on the front were once a fad. Check out this story titled Football Jerseys with Emblems.

-Whose college football jersey was the first to be retired? Red Grange's Number 77 Ilinois Illini jersey was the first college uni shelved in 1925. There were a couple more about the same time, and we chatted with a college football expert historian to help divulge College Football and its First Retired Jerseys.