Image is Courtesy of Cole Holcomb chasing Travis Kelce OCT2021 is courtesy of All-Pro Reels via Wikimedia Commons.

We were proud to have the chance to sit down and discuss a football topic on How the Tight End Is the Sport Itself Distilled to One Position with Tyler Dunne Author of the New Book THE BLOOD AND GUTS: How Tight Ends Saved Football. Tyler is a veteran NFL journalist who covered teams like the Green Bay Packers and the Buffalo Bills for some significant publications. He now has his own gig writing some fantastic long-form gridiron posts on GoLongTD.com.

You can follow Tyler Dunne on Twitter @TyDunne

Transcript of Conversation with Author Tyler Dunne on Blood and Guts Tight Ends book

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes at pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And we have a very interesting look down that portal of history today as we are going to be talking to an author who has a new book out called Blood and Guts, How Titans Save Football. His name is Tyler Dunne, and we'll welcome him right now. Tyler Dunne, welcome to the Pigpen.

Tyler Dunne
It is a pleasure to be here there. Thanks so much for having me.

Darin Hayes
The pleasure is all ours, sir. We appreciate you taking the time here to talk a little bit of football history with us here in the Pigpen, and your book is extremely fascinating. We're going to get into more detail on that in a second. But first, we could share a little bit about you with the listeners. What started your football fandom to get you to the point of writing a book on tight ends?

Tyler Dunne
Yeah, yeah. I grew up in Western New York, about an hour South of Buffalo, and played football my entire life. I guess that's part of it, right? It was an elegant bill, small school. We actually had our sectional championship right where the Bills play raffles in the stadium, so that was a ton of fun. But then, yeah, you eventually got to move on from the plane and go the journalism route. Syracuse University loved it. It was just an unreal experience working at that student newspaper, covering big-time D1 sports, and then covering the Green Bay Packers and Milwaukee Journal Sentinel for about four and a half years. Just talked about a crash course on how to cover pro football, Bob McGinn, Tom Silverstein, Laurie Nichol. That was an unbelievable experience and definitely helped me get to this point in the long haul. Buffalo Bills covered that squad, Rex Ryan's first year at the Buffalo News, and then Bleach Report reached out. They were expanding their features department, so it was a really good opportunity to still live in Western New York but kind of travel the country and just do long-form takeout stories for BR. Amazing experience. It really helped me learn the game and just tell some long-form stories. That's absolutely what I love to do more than anything. So that was great, and that ran its course, and I decided to launch my own site, golongtd.com. So I just do profiles, long-form Q&A, deep dives on the inner workings of teams, and that kind of stuff, and it's part of the sub-stack platform. So far, so good. People want to read, which is great. That was the fear, right? When you branch off and start a subscription website, is this something people want to pay for? But they do. So it's been a lot of fun, and yeah, if people want to sign up, they can. Right there, there's a free option, too. You can get stories for free on a different list, and if you like that, you can always upgrade.

Darin Hayes
All right, wow, that's that's quite a background. I mean, you have some very interesting people that you get to talk to every day. You know, both at Green Bay and, you know, God Rex Ryan. He was a story a minute. I'm sure when he was at Buffalo.

Tyler Dunne
Yeah, so the 2015 season was wild. That was Rex Ryan's first in Buffalo, so to be there in that locker room for the ups and the downs and all the absolute mayhem was just... You know, honestly, that was one of the more fun seasons on the job, just because you never knew what was going to happen to your point.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, your pen would probably run out of ink just covering him, I'm sure, you know.

Tyler Dunne
Literally, you got that, everybody.

Darin Hayes
Now, he was quite the quote machine, that's for sure. So very interesting. In Green Bay, you had some great teams there. What era did you cover Green Bay?

Tyler Dunne
So that would have been 2011 through 2015, I believe. So right after they won the Super Bowl and through several seasons where they probably should have won another Super Bowl, hotel short, yeah, it's very similar to Buffalo in terms of just the town kind of embodying the team. I mean, if they win, like literally everybody at the coffee shop, the bar is in a good mood, and if they lose, everybody is in a bad mood. So there's something really cool about that where, I mean, there's something not good. So there's not, like, outside of the football team, there's not a lot to do, which is fine because I just want to, you know, drink a few beers and watch football. But when that's the number one activity for everybody in the town, they definitely take on the persona of that team in every way.

Darin Hayes
I'll bet. Now, I guess that brings you right into your football book here on tight ends and blood and guts. How did you come up with the premise of covering the tight end? That's probably a position that, other than the offensive line, sort of doesn't get the love that they probably should because these guys are doing some pretty awesome stuff.

Tyler Dunne
No doubt, I mean, they have to do it all, right? It's a little bit of everything. You do have to operate in the trenches. So, you know, I guess to answer your question, I just want to do a book on real football. Like, what is real football? It's high intensity; it's a high level of violence. It's that adrenaline rush you get, you know? And when you're back in high school, and you're playing with the lights, and everybody's in the crowd, there's just something really cool about the game. And I just wanted to try to get to the heart of it, you know, search for the soul of it. And the more you think about it, yeah, that tight end, you have to do everything. Like, literally everything. So, that's how it started. And once I really started talking to Mike Jekka, Jackie Smith, Ozzie Newsom, and then even the contemporary guys, Rob Gronkowski, George Kittle, Tony Gonzalez, you really learn that this tight end position, yeah, it's football, it's the sport itself. But I think as people read this book, it doesn't even matter if you like football or not because you're gonna learn how, like, this position, this profession, most directly reflects our own lives. I mean, our own lives, whatever our job is, I mean, it is felt through that tight-end position, which is really cool. I mean, yes, it saves football, and you'll find out why, but I think you're also gonna see how, holy cow, playing this position makes you a better person.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, wow. When you're talking to some experts about the position, I think you hit the Hall of Fame of tight ends right there with those names that you talked about. It doesn't get any better than those guys. They each brought a different perspective to the game and the history of the game. You actually had different eras of the tight end and the development of it. Going from Dicca, who's probably helped develop the position as much as anybody did in football history, right up to these contemporary guys, like you said, like Gronkowski and even Tony Kinsallis, I still consider him a contemporary. He's probably been retired for ten years now, but now those are some greats that you got to talk to.

Tyler Dunne
It was just unbelievably fortunate. I wasn't sure about embarking on this cross-country tour, and I really wanted to talk to as many of these guys in person as I could and make it as real as possible to just sit down at a bar with Jeremy Shockey and get in his environment, right? Or hanging out with Tony Gonzalez right in Austin, Texas, where he moved into town. Mike Dicka, down at his golf course with a cigar nearby. I feel like I really got to know these guys, and it was important to get on their turf and go through their lives. I mean, I think that really each of the 15 chapters is a long-form profile of the 15 people who really were uniquely qualified to preserve the sport that we love, right? I mean, this is, it's a special sport. It's, you know, you don't just pick up a football and gather on your buddies. I mean, you can't play pickup, obviously, but when it comes to the physicality and the violence in an actual football game, you know, it's harder to get a group of friends together, put on the pad, put on a helmet, and have a full-fledged game. I mean, there's attrition in football that other sports just don't have, and I get it, you know, you gotta watch the violence, and they are trying to make it safer, but it's not safe, and I think that's okay. That inherent risk that the sport has, honestly, is kind of what makes it different, and kind of going on a soapbox here, but it does kind of bother me when the league almost pretends to be something it's not and do you want guys getting maimed in the defense of secondary? No, but do you want Chris Jones to tackle, you know, a quarterback, Tom Brady, and literally just fall on top of him and get a flag bet? That's ridiculous. So I think that preservation of what the sport is, what makes it great, is unbelievably important, and these are the 15 dudes that are those modern-day gladiators who I think era to era, you know, decade to decade, year to year, making sure that, hey, you know, if things are gonna be changing all over the place, you know, quarterback play, and what you can do with strong safety, which isn't even really a position anymore, but that tight end, you can still hit, and guess what, you're gonna be very, very visible, because when it's third and eight, and everything's on the line, that quarterback's gonna be looking for you, Dallas Clark, you know, in the playoffs, or you, Tony Gonzalez in Atlanta, or you, Rod Brankowski in the Super Bowl. I think that's a differentiator from the linemen, too. If you have a good game as a lineman, nobody's talking about you in three hours.

Darin Hayes
Right, yeah, you're preaching to the choir here on some of this what's going on with the quarterback, especially this year. You know, they've talked about that in decades passive, you know, putting skirts on them. I think it might be really amplified, and it's a bad situation like what's happened with it in Miami. That's a horrible situation, And that's more of a policy that needs to be changed than what needs to be changed play on the field. I think that the guys are cognizant of this. There's a brotherhood in football, as you well know, and they want to protect each other, But they also want to do their jobs, and you know They're there to make a living and them hitting people very hard and taking to the ground That's how they make their money. So you have to respect what the defenders are doing. That's for sure.

Tyler Dunne
Oh, that's perfectly put. Yeah, I just couldn't agree more. I just wanted to tell you that.

Darin Hayes
Now, with this wide array of people that you got to interview, all tight ends, legends of the game, all well known in every household that knows professional football, was there a common thread that they all said like a certain aspect of the game that they all loved or was it a variety of different things? I'm sure there had to be some common core theme to what they each said.

Tyler Dunne
I think a common thread with these tight ends is you have to do stuff that you don't want to do. And that's the case in all of our day-to-day lives. You don't get to wake up and just have a party every day. You got to run the kids to school, you got to pay some bills, you got to do some chores around the house. That's the tight end position, and that's always been the tight end position is, yeah, there's some glitz to it, there are touchdowns, and if you're a good-looking dude like Tony Gonzalez, your life's going to be pretty sweet. Maybe you will be a little bit of a celebrity, but even Tony Gonzalez says that's why the tight end is different from the other positions. It forces you to do the stuff you don't want to do. You still have to go over to that nine-on-seven inside run drill at training camp and bash people in. You're not with the wide receivers and the cornerbacks running one-on-ones and working on your routes, but there's an element of physicality here that's inherent to being a real tight end. Now, if you're a receiver, if you're receiving tight end, maybe you're doing less of that, but if you're still a tight end, that's still going to be an element to your game that you're going to need at some point or another. I think that's why the tight-end position almost chooses you. You don't necessarily choose the position. You have a certain set of traits and characteristics as a human being. You're Jimmy Graham, and you're basically growing up an orphan because your mom doesn't want you, and you're in a group home, and you're fearing for your life, and you're getting beat up in a van, and your will is being tested to the extreme before you're finally saved by a church leader who takes you in and gets you to school. It's no coincidence that Jimmy Graham has the intestinal fortitude to play four years of basketball at Miami, play one-year college basketball, go to New Orleans, and help evolve the position themselves. He didn't go out to be a tight end. It kind of chose him. It was the same with Dallas Clark at Iowa and everything he went through; he was a linebacker, like six, seven string, just getting the space beat in and pinching pennies together to even pay his way through school. Eventually, Kirk Baron says, hey, you're a tight end, and that indomitable drive was just a perfect fit for Dallas Clark. I think that's what's special about it. It definitely taps into your innermost traits as a human being. If you're going to work hard, if you're the type that's just going to put others before yourself, there's a good chance you'd be a tight end.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that you brought up that topic because so many tight ends were something else before they became tight ends. It's not something that in high school, hey, I was a tight end in high school. You never hear that. But most common, at least in past times, tight ends were former offensive tackles or maybe a running back every once in a while. But as you said, Gonzalez, Antonio Gates, and some of the others are Jimmy Graham, basketball players who were converted to be tight ends. And now you're talking like Dallas Clark being converted from another position. It's just wild. I think you're right about the money when you say a tight-end position chooses you because that's kind of cool about that position.

Tyler Dunne
It is. I mean, it really is just about the case for everybody, except for, um, you know, Rob Gronkowski, growing up here in Buffalo, New York, he's, he's fallen in love with the Jeremy Shockey. He sees, you know, he's a young teenager, and he sees this, uh, this dude in New York City with the blonde hair and the brass style, just saying whatever's on his mind, living it up, you know, in the nightlife in the big city. And he's thinking, man, I want to be that one day. I just want to party hard, play hard, and live like there's no tomorrow. And boy, it sure looks like I can do it at tight end. So I guess that's maybe what makes Rob Gronkowski the greatest tight end ever. He kind of knew all along that he was made for it. And by God, the way he grew up in Buffalo, as people will read in this book, it all prepared him, uh, to be that tight end.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, he's he's definitely a unique specimen at the position because you know Generally your tight ends you could almost put in one of two groups either They're a great pass catching tight end a threat down the field or they're just a road grader blocker And he was sort of you know, the best of both worlds, especially in his prime You know i'm a Steelers fan and you know He he on the Patriots just owned my team for you know, as long as he played they were just killing it You know, you got Brady, but he was definitely a big element of what they did And uh, you know, there's there's other instances of that too where you have a you know Great blocking tight end that can catch a lot of great passes and everything too But uh, you know, like but Gonzalez I never really think of him as you know I'm sure he had to share blocks But I think the general perception is this dude could get open and you know It was a big target when he showed his numbers to a quarterback and made some big plays that uh, Some of the others so I guess that takes a sort of the other end of my question Um, yeah, everybody had a common thread. Well, how about what was the most surprising? A unique story that one of these legends told you about the tight-end position

Tyler Dunne
Oh my goodness, there were a lot. You know, if we're gonna get, if we're gonna get heavy, I mean, I would say Jackie Smith, and it's kind of two-fold. His upbringing is remarkable. Growing up in Kentwood, Louisiana, didn't really, didn't even barely play any football. He was just like a little spinner back in their wing T. He was a track guy. And by the way, at their school, their track, they just kind of ran around the football field. One time, they didn't really have a track, and there was one part of it that would flood, and it was like running in a bunch of wet dirt, but the dude could fly. He could run and run for days. He eventually worked his way to playing in college or running track in college. The only way he got a scholarship was because he said he would join the football team. It was just that he was kind of on the football team because the St. Louis Cardinals took a shot at him. And the football stories around Jackie Smith are remarkable. I mean, he's kind of forgotten in the history of the game, but yards per reception, he still has a record of a full two yards, I believe. He was a tough, tough, tough player. There are some remarkable stories of just being injured in one game. Terry Metcalf, I believe the running back, takes a cheap shot, and Jackie just runs right out on the field. Just runs right out and goes after the player for the Washington Redskins and gets to his face. And the ref is, you know, screwing him up. He thinks the fan is like a great fan running out of the field. It makes Jackie sit in a chair, far away from the team. Now that following up season, Jackie's mother down in Jackson, Mississippi, greets him at the door and says, hey, Jackie, there's a player for the Washington Redskins who had just moved in, and he said he wants to see you. And Jackie's a God-buried man. He's like, oh my gosh, Jesus Christ has delivered me my revenge. And so he goes over to the guy's house. He's ready to punch him, slug him, and get his vengeance. He's got a clutch fit behind his back. The player answers the door, and it's somebody else. And they have themselves a beautiful chat. He was a, you know, that those Cardinal teams, I mean, they had Conrad to Ober, right? They and Deardor. There were some tough tough guys on that team. Yeah, they are all to a man, really.

Darin Hayes
Jimmy Hart at quarterback, those teams, I believe, too.

Tyler Dunne
Yeah, yep, yep, good call. Yeah, but God, the name escapes me. They had somebody that competed like one of the world's strongest men, too. I mean, you're talking about gnarly, mean, nasty human beings, but Jackie Smith, they told me, is he was the bad, bad dude of mine. He was the man in charge. You feared him. He had a toughness to him. And it was great to just tell his story because, sadly, you hear that name and you think of 5.5 seconds in the Super Bowl, where that drop that he had in the end zone in 1979, there was so much more that went into it. Yeah, it wasn't like he just dropped this easy pass. The play call, where they called it, Rodgers, Staubachs, Thoreau. There were a lot of moving parts, let alone the fact that it was in the third quarter, they got a field goal that drove, and they gave Randy White a plumb of the kick-off return, and Staubach threw a bad pick that led to a tough hit. Many other factors were why the Dallas Cowboys lost that game, but I think the stories out of that on how he had to deal with this in his post-playing days, that's where it gets heavy because Jackie Smith is sitting down with him. I was like, sit with my grandfather, an unbelievably kind human being, great, great soul, and you can just feel his pain and how that moment affected him, and more so affected the relationships that he had with so many of his loved ones. It took a while. He was pretty honest. It took until about a couple of years ago for him to really look in the mirror, face that man in the mirror, and say, let's quit letting this bother you, like really cherish these relationships, and I think that's a huge element to the tight end position too. So many of these guys kind of had that man-in-the-mirror moment and bettered themselves as human beings.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Jackie and his previous, uh, you know, history because, as you say, he sort of gets a bad rap for that Super Bowl thing. But I have a little bit of theory on that. You know, first of all, he came from the Cardinals, which, uh, that way back then, uh, the Cardinals and the Cowboys were in the same division. Uh, sounds kind of foreign to us now, but I can remember those days. I'm a little older, but, uh, so, you know, he really, by Cowboys fans, he's a very passionate fan base now and then, um, you know, they've probably had a little bit just like from way back when, cause he, he heard them so much, you know, when he played against the Cowboys twice a year and then, uh, you know, him doing that and they needed a scapegoat, uh, you know, playing at the Steelers that year. And, uh, I think he just sort of, he was the, the donkey, they were going to pin the tail on, and the poor guy got a bad rap. But like you say, there was a lot of football left after that. And a lot of, uh, plays that were left on the field that, uh, could have changed the outcome of that game. So a great player, though. And I'm glad that you bring him up and, uh, talk about his, uh, being such a great player instead of being a scapegoat of a Superbowl loss.

Tyler Dunne
thank you. Yeah, you know you're right. There were other factors at play, too, like Vern Linquest's call. Bless his heart, we all people who were who remember watching that game can remember the imagery right of even like Roger Staubach Tom Lance or just the despondent look on their faces it was just heavy and right in the moment it was just played up to the extreme where oh my god so much other stuff happened and I just I think if everybody listening out there if you were judged by something that happened in your life that was such a fleeting moment in time I can't imagine

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's not like he, you know, it was an easy catch that should have been made, not saying that. But I believe he's down on his knees as a result of a low throw by Staubach and a high-pressure situation. And what one of us can honestly say that you haven't made a mistake on the job when you're under a little bit of pressure, you know, in a unique circumstance, I can, I don't think anybody's going to be raising their hands says it's never happened to them because it's happened to all of us. I'm sure. He's just on the big stage of the most televised program in the country for the year, and everybody is watching at a critical point. So yeah, he deserves to get more credit for being the great player that he was.

Tyler Dunne
And you know what, just while we're on him, that play, Jackie broke it all down. Granted, we didn't just open up our conversation with that play. We were gently kind of easing into it because I think it is still a sore subject for him, obviously. Some of his closest friends haven't even brought it up. But that play, Roger Staubach, when he threw it, he kind of fluttered it, he floated it. Like normally, he'd zip it in there. But Jackie was so wide open. Unexpectedly wide open, like the fourth or fifth option on the play. It's not even for him that he thought he wanted to make it easy, where Jackie was running his route fast and like he always would. And that's what kind of made him flip, and then he dropped it, and also was called it like the 10-yard line. Typically, when they run that play, which was just put in, I mean, they just put the play in, it was supposed to be a goal-line play. So he'd go to the back of the goal line to catch it. And this time, it's just different, the dimensions of where they're calling; that's why, like Tom Landry, one of the best coaches of all time, whose fingerprints are all over the tight end position, too, as people will read. It's crazy that he called that play where he did. It doesn't make much sense for one of the smartest coaches ever to do that.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, but it actually worked though. He was hoping they could get an advantage on it.

Tyler Dunne,
regardless, he was open. Yeah, you're right.

Darin Hayes
You're right. Interesting. Now, I'm interested in hearing a little bit about Ozzie Newsom that you sat down with because that man's mind, I mean, as a player, he had to be one of the smartest football minds in football on the field. And definitely his, you know, general manager duties, he's, you know, off the charts. A guy had success with everything he did in the game of football. So I'm just interested in, maybe, some of the interesting things that you got out of your conversation with him.

Tyler Dunne
Oh, my goodness. He's so different than, you know, if you're talking common threads with these tight ends, it'd be personality, right? So many of them have just explosive, loud, fun, energetic personalities. I mean, Ozzy, when he was the GM, he went after Jan and Sharp. Jan and Sharp often went to the Super Bowl, so he welcomed that person. That wasn't Ozzy. I mean, he is, as Joe de la Melora says, quiet as a mouse. I mean, he really didn't say much privately. He doesn't say much publicly. To sit down with him for this book, I'm surprised that he was up for it, but he was. We talked for about an hour about his remarkable life. You know, I think it's a product of where he grew up, the segregated South, where he's living so many of the experiences we just read about in textbooks, really. I mean, he was there, and then he saw it, and he's on a youth baseball team, and their team is forced to just stay somewhere else because people at this establishment did not want African Americans there. So, yeah, I mean, I think the fact that he then decided, okay, I'm going to go to a white school, and I'm going to compete academically and athletically and prove that I'm just as good, if not better than everybody, and he did. He crushed everybody in that department. Gift of Alabama, Bear Bryant is like a father figure to him; he just wants to make him proud that they had unbelievably important conversations that he still holds near and dear. And I think that all the play of heartbreak in Cleveland, I mean, he just endured so much heartbreak, and those playoff losses, the Red Right 88, the Drive, the Bumble, the theme would be just calm and chaos. That's the title of that chapter. He's just so unbelievably calm. And even the way he caught the ball, he was smooth. I mean, he looked at him with his eyes. And after he had it dropped early in his career, he just dropped another pass. Practice games didn't matter. He never dropped the ball because he's just so dang calm and quiet and productive. And yes, that's absolutely how he ran the Baltimore Ravens. You know, that first draft when it's all bare bones. My God, they didn't even have a logo. They're working on the police barrack. Their rosters gutted. You know, the city of Cleveland wants Art Modell dead. Ozzy was just a de facto GM when he was like Bill Belichick. Whatever you call him, he just gopher before for the Phyllis Brown scenes. He was just a scout scout, you know, working on the card to practice. But now, all of a sudden, he's entrusted with running the Baltimore Ravens. And he had the foresight at that moment to just trust their draft board in 96. They had Nohner and Art Modell, and they had Coach and Ted Marcia Broda, who won the Lawrence Phillips. They want to make a big splash. They're running back out of Nebraska, talented, obviously troubled, very, very, very troubled, historically troubled. And Ozzy knew some; all he said was that we had done all this work on these college prospects. Our scouts have Ogden and Jonathan Ogden, and number one, we're going to stick with Jonathan Ogden. And the pick obviously worked out. They take Ray Lewis later in that first round, and the Ravens, for two decades, are a gold standard for how you run a team.

Darin Hayes
Absolutely. Yeah, that's fantastic on that. Now, why don't you take this opportunity to say the name of your book again and where folks might be able to get it?

Tyler Dunne
Absolutely. It's the blood and guts that tight ends save football. Amazon's probably the way to go, right? That's where everybody is anyway. So, hardcover, Kindle, and Audible are all available there. Obviously, Barnes& Noble, Walmart, Target, Indie Books, and your local bookstore are good options. It should be all over the place. So, yes, you'll get all these stories and a hell of a lot more; I promise you that. It was a passion project. Loved every second of it.

Darin Hayes
Well, that's great. Okay, one last question before we let you go here. Now, you know, the tight end position, we know how it's morphed into what it is today. You know, it's a dynamic position. It's always changing. But where do you see the course of tight ends going further? I mean, do you see any more changes to the position for the good of the game, or do you think it's gonna be pretty much what it is today?

Tyler Dunne
No, I think it is changing. I mean, you're seeing the athleticism just reach extremes. I mean, what Kyle Pitts does in Atlanta is unbelievable. Really, to have that kind of athleticism, that kind of speed, to run a 4 -4 at 250. I mean, he's unbelievably productive. We'll see how, you know, the quarterback play shakes out there. And if you can kind of develop as a blocker, blocking is obviously his weakness. But I talked to him about actually working on a story right now with Kyle Pitts. We just caught up a couple of days ago. So, I go along to you .com. People can check that out. I think this guy's got an inner drive, like Gonzales has, like Gates has like all of these greats really possessed. And as much as you really do want that do-it-all -tight end that can block and drive somebody into the dirt 15 yards field and make a play in the passing game, you know, George Kittle is the best of the best today. Kittles don't grow on trees because that's not a tight end that you're really going to find in college anymore. You're going to find athletes, and then you have to try to coach them up and teach them how to block. But that's okay. You know, I think Pitts is going to take this tight end position into a new realm that is hopefully going to get these guys paid because they're some of the most underpaid professional athletes in any sport. And it's kind of terrible. I mean, fullbacks and specialists only make less of them.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, that's very true indeed. Now, I really appreciate you coming on today to talk about the Titan position. I'm glad that you wrote this book and gave them the love that they deserve and told their story in football history. And Tyler, it's an amazing book. And folks, I highly recommend it. Like you said, you know, Amazon and the Barnes and Noble of the world, I hear they both sell a few books. So, definitely get Tyler's book there. Probably, it makes a great Christmas gift. We've got that season coming up for the football fan in your life who loves to read about football history. I appreciate that. Tyler, do you want to share any of your social media with folks so they can keep it? I know they can keep track of you on the website, but, you know, social media is always a good thing, too, for people who only have a couple of seconds in their pocket, you know, the phone in their pocket. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tyler Dunne
Just at Ty Dunn, so T -Y -D -U -N -N -E on Twitter, Instagram, and all that good stuff. So yeah, follow along, and we'll be spreading the tight end of love and uncovering pro football best mechanics that go along

Darin Hayes
All right, Tyler Dunne, book Blood and Guts, How Tight Ends Save Football. We appreciate you coming on here today, sir, and sharing and preserving football history.

Tyler Dunne
No, thank you, man. I really enjoyed the conversation. I hope we can do it again.