Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends; this is Darin Hayes once again from the Pigpen in Western Pennsylvania. I'm from pigskin-dispatch .com, and the Pigskin Daily History Dispatch is here for you with our Football History Headlines. We're going to go into our jersey number threes, our football by the numbers as we're on number three, and again, we have Os Davis from the Truly the Goats and the SHN Showcase podcast on the Sports History Network. Okay, tonight's episode, we are going to talk about our journey going through all the jersey numbers of football, zero through 99. We are on jersey number three tonight, and we have a historic moment here on the podcast. Our first returning guest, Os Davis, is going to be helping in the discussion tonight for jersey number three. We had such a great time last night in the number two. If you haven't caught that episode, please make sure you go back and check it out after you're done listening to this one because we had a good time. It's just like we're going to have tonight. So we want to talk about the significant players in pro football history, including Os Davis. Just to remind you, he is on the Sports History Network's Truly the Goats podcast. He also does the SHN Showcase podcast. Mr. Os Davis, welcome to the Pigpen.
Os Davis
All right, it's great to be back.
Darin Hayes
Okay, now tonight we have; I know you've been waiting for me because when I said I was going to do a series on jersey numbers, I had one guy with his hand up saying, pick me for number three, pick me for number three. So, I think there might be some favorite players or a favorite player that you want to talk about tonight.
Os Davis
I also want number 82, by the way, so keep that in mind. Oh, gosh. Keep in mind for that. In any case, well, yeah, there are a couple of big number 3s. It's also interesting to note that. I've got a good trivia question for you, too. Number 3 is really crucial in at least a couple of other sports if you're talking about great uniform numbers. Of course, in baseball, that's Babe Ruth, and in NASCAR, that was Dale Earnhardt. Right. Most people still consider it the goat NASCAR driver, but do you know why Babe Ruth wore number 3? No, I don't. It's actually a really simple answer. He batted third. The Yankees, of course, are famous for Lou Gehrig, who wore number 4. The Yankees, of course, are famous for being the only team in Major League Baseball that doesn't have the names on the back of the jersey. However, they were the first team to put the numbers on the jerseys in baseball because they wanted everybody to know who their stars were.
Darin Hayes
So interesting. So Ruth's sitting back clean up. Garrett got batted clean-up, huh?
Os Davis
No, oh no, famously not. Yeah, it was always.
Darin Hayes
A football historian, not a baseball historian; it just seems odd to me, though.
Os Davis
It's funny, too, because if you play the 27 Yankees in Sim or something and you let the computer set the lineup, invariably, they'll put Gary 3rd and Ruth 4th. It was much more logical, but you know, Ruth had an ego. So, in any case, number 3 actually turns out to be a really important number in NFL football history, 2, you know, we talked last episode, I won't reveal any names or anything, but we talked last episode about how these low numbers, when you talk about greats to wear them, it's really important, or you really get a nice look at the early days of football. Because back in those days, you know, the low numbers were taken by the important guys, just like the Yankees in the 20s, baseball. And so, you know, your number 1s, your number 2s, your 3s were the key players on that team. There wasn't much of a, you know, there wasn't like we have nowadays, which is actually quite a logical system, where, you know, your linemen were in the 60s, and your backs are 20s and 30s, and your quarterbacks are teens and whatnot, but they didn't have that back in those days.
Darin Hayes
Do you know why they changed that I believe that in the In the 50s, they changed the numbering system just for ease of refereeing, I would guess, is right, as, being a former football official, you know that 50 through 79 are not eligible unless they have an eligible position. Now, in the NFL, they have a report. They got it easier in high school. They didn't have to report if they were. You know, well, they couldn't. They weren't eligible in high school. No matter what, you could run the ball. You weren't eligible to catch a pass or a forward pass, so it was a little bit easier.
Os Davis
How should we do this one? Well, should we?
Darin Hayes
We have, again, we have, I show four Hall of Famers in the pro football Hall of Fame that wore the number three as a, I mean, there's some Hall of Famers wore number three, but people that wore the number three in a substantial number of seasons, let's say. And there are four of them, and a couple of them are really big names. So, well, let's reverse it a little bit tonight. Let's save those gentlemen for the end, and let's talk about the sort of guys on the periphery who wore the number three. Okay.
Os Davis
Well, you got the, uh, well, you got one, that's a perspective, Hall of Famer, right? Uh, Russell Wilson. Oh, yes. Um, uh, the amazing thing about Russell Wilson, Pete Carroll, and the Seahawks that he plays on is just, I mean, a, the way that they're in contention every season, season after season, but be the way nobody notices, I mean, I mean, the Seahawks are almost the parallel to the Patriots, uh, since Carroll took them over, um, always a threat to be in the Super Bowl, often thought to be at one point in the season, the, the, the favorite in the NFC, uh, to win the championship. So, he had some great teams, too. So.
Darin Hayes
Yeah, but he did it most of the time without a significant offensive line, you know? Yeah. I mean, for guys like this past year, he was running for his life and still had a, you know, it was up for, at some one point, for being the NFL MVP for a while there, that he was in a talk, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so.
Os Davis
Russell, definitely a perspective Hall of Famer from this list. Now, you got another, is Daryl LaMonica really not the Hall of Famer?
Darin Hayes
And no, I don't show Daryl LaMonica being in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Wow.
Os Davis
Crazy because you know he was one of the guys that was the big name in the film when that rogue league first started for the Raiders, and Yeah, I'm surprised, well
Darin Hayes
Go before the Raiders. He had his first four years with the Buffalo Bills, right? to AFL championships, I believe, where he was the starting quarterback, and then went to the Raiders, and I didn't realize he was with the Raiders as long as he was with the Raiders from 67 through 74 so he overlapped Kenny Stabler quite a bit, right? I knew I knew that one year they did, but I didn't realize he was still hanging around there. Oh, yeah
Os Davis
Yeah, he was there for a while. I remember him from when I was a kid on the football cards. But I'm surprised because he was, like you just said, a big name in the NFL.
Darin Hayes
Well, I always, I mean, one stat I love to look at with quarterbacks that have played a substantial amount of time is I'd like to look at their touchdown interception ratio. Of course. LaMonica had a hundred, which counts as AFL days with Buffalo and Oakland, with 164 touchdowns and 138 interceptions. So he might not have been the best caretaker of the ball, you know, in some games. Wow.
Os Davis
The AFL was a much more free-flowing, much more risk-taking league anyway.
Darin Hayes
That's one of the reasons why he's not in the Hall of Fame. Definitely had the longevity, 12 years altogether.
Os Davis
Well, Jesus, Joe Nameth is in the Hall of Fame.
Darin Hayes
Hahaha
Os Davis
you know, that's always the argument, right? I mean, it's like Namath and Lamonic are very comparable, very comparable with the exception of the one big win, you know, which is not to sneeze at that because I mean, basically, that one win put the AFL on the map.
Darin Hayes
When you have a game called the Super Bowl versus an AFL championship, right? That makes a big difference. I think it's got the name super right there, you know.
Os Davis
It's a dead giveaway, so what is your perspective there? Those are the two guys on this list that I would consider real bubble hall favors.
Darin Hayes
What do you think about a guy named Carson Palmer? He wore number three first.
Os Davis
Well, yeah, I was a big again. There was another guy I talked to last time. I defended Matt Ryan. Carson Palmer was another guy I've defended for a long time. History will not be nice to Carson Paul, but those of us who saw him know that he was great. He was great. He just played us Really? I Don't know you're a generous guy. So, let's just say it's a sub-par team since it's an added error.
Darin Hayes
But the good teams that he played for were probably the Cincinnati teams, and he actually wore number nine with Cincinnati. It's when he went to Oakland and Arizona, and later in his career, he put the three on. But I thought he was outstanding out of, he was a USC Trojan, came out, was a, I remember this being a Steelers fan, he was a teammate of Troy Palomolo. And I think he came to the NFL a year before Palomolo did. So, Palomolo's rookie year, I can remember, I think it was Palomolo's first game coming in; they were playing the Bengals. Carson Palmer at quarterback and I forget who the bro -caw or somebody was doing the game, and they're like going, oh, Troy Palomolo and Carson Palmer were teammates, and now they're opposing each other. And boy, that really came to, had a lot of history to it because it was like six, seven seasons that they opposed each other, you know, at least twice a year. And they played a couple of playoff games.
Os Davis
have been the last living in Southern California. I can tell you that might have also been the last time USC was any good. Ah, yeah.
Darin Hayes
They were on that team. There might be some people that disagree with you. Like Russell Wilson's coach that you just talked to. He might disagree with you.
Os Davis
I'm joking a little bit, but it feels like that these days. Have you seen college football in the state of California? My God, it feels like that, but yeah, those are some great USC teams. Oh my God
Darin Hayes
I think what really, I mean Palmer, it just seemed like everything was going so well for him. And then, in that playoff game against the Steelers, chemo voted off and hit him. And I don't think it was a cheap shot. I think he got blocked, tit him down at the knee. It was a bad, bad thing. The Bengals were up in that playoff game, and they looked pretty good. It seemed to just take and deflate the whole bloom for the Bengals, and Carson Palmer's career seemed right in that game. At least, that's my perspective. It literally came off. Yeah, he just never was the same. And I think his knee was better, but I just, he just wasn't the same. It was like there was an uneasiness about him. You know, he was a little skittish, you know, through a lot more interceptions. I'll tell you what.
Os Davis
And when you get to number 9, he's got to be in contention there because that's a pretty obscure number. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sure it is.
Darin Hayes
Even for the old days, but even, yeah, I mean, he threw a lot of interceptions after that. If you had a couple of seasons, Yes, three or four in the 20s, but his ratio is 294 touchdowns and 187 interceptions, So a hundred more touchdowns or so more than a hundred more interceptions, and he had some bad years of throwing interceptions His last few at the Bengals. They're pretty dismal. Okay, we have a bunch of other quarterbacks in there; what do you think about Jeff George? Jeff George was
Os Davis
Well, I don't know, right after him, you've got Derek Anderson and Bobby Abert. I might go with one of those two over George. I mean, isn't George like the stereotypical backup?
Darin Hayes
Thanks for watching! And there is a guy that had all the skill sets. I mean, all the hell in the world is coming out. And even with that, let's set this straight. In his first four years, he played for Indianapolis War number 11, then played three years with Atlanta War number one. Then he switched over to three with Oakland, Minnesota, and Washington. So, in the latter part of his career, the backup role, yeah, he was a three. But you gotta talk about the man's entirety. Now, he has 154 touchdowns in his career, with 113 interceptions. So, it's a little bit more like on the LaMonica. Three to two. Yeah. Three to two. But it's pretty close to what LaMonica was. But he played for a lot of teams, five different teams.
Os Davis
but I don't know if you have all odd numbers, um. I guess I mean, there's something to be said for longevity here. I mean, he did start in how many to 124 games plus playoffs, so there's something to be said for longevity there, but geez, if you can't put him in the same conversation as a Russell Wilson or even a Lomonica, even a Lomonica.
Darin Hayes
No, I think these gentlemen we're talking about right in here, they're probably... This is the third tier. Yeah, they're... I'm not even sure if they're gonna make it on the Hall of the Very Good, you know, with the FRA. I'm not so sure. Maybe Carson Palmer, but I don't know for sure.
Os Davis
I kind of like the idea of a pro football hall of fairy goodness.
Darin Hayes
We have the hall of the very good every year we vote and actually it's unbelievable how many times a member of the hall of the very good within a couple years goes into the pro football hall of fame. So do you have to take them out of the very good? You know I'm not quite sure. I think they get to stay there they get that honor. I might be mistaken I'll probably have Mr. Crippen or somebody calling me after this. I should know that better.
Os Davis
My boy, Doug Flutie, had better be at least in the very good Hall of Fame.
Darin Hayes
I don't, I don't have that list. I pray I'll get that on there. But okay. Let's talk about some other guys. So we're on that for free. Derek Anderson, there, there's your perennial backup. Yeah. That had a really good year with the Browns. Um, I'm not sure why they let him go. I thought he played outstandingly, even in the playoff game, and they were way ahead of the Steelers. Steelers came back, uh, beat him, but he had a great game. I don't know why it wasn't his fault that they fell apart. Uh, Bobby Hebert, you know, there, there was a guy, and I always liked Bobby Hebert. He sort of had some; he had some moxie to him. You know, uh, it hit most of his career with the Saints, uh, and played four years with the Falcons. One hundred thirty-five touchdowns, 124 interceptions. Ooh, that's a little bit more interceptions than I thought he had. Oh, I guess I only remember the good things about Bobby, a bear. I always liked him.
Os Davis
Oh, yeah, well, he would he became like, I mean, it kind of kind of shows the low expectations Saints fans have had since being formed at 72. But he became almost legendary figure there for going, you know, 28 in his first two seasons as a starter as his first two, let's say full seasons as a starter. I mean, that's in the late 80s. And I mean, you know, that was me, and I might have been in '88.
Darin Hayes
87, he was ten and chose a starter. Yeah, 88 years, 10, and 6. I want to say one of those
Os Davis
years was the first time they ever made the playoffs.
Darin Hayes
I don't know. They had that great defense. Yeah, yeah, they just.
Os Davis
You know, and a bear was, as I remember, he was constantly manufacturing plays because, again, you know, a victim of an average or below average offensive line. It seems to me that he ran quite a bit because he averaged, I think, one year; he averaged something like five yards a carry. So he was definitely one of these scrambling quarterbacks of the new sort, but, and then, you know, I don't know what happens. You know, he just kind of drops off the map when they lose him to Atlanta.
Darin Hayes
Well, he, well, he had; after that 10 and 6 seasons of 88, 89, he was 6 and 7 as a starter. 1990, he missed the entire season in a contract dispute. That sort of hurts your career. That's weird. They came back and had two more years with the Saints, 8 and 1 as a starter, 12 and 4 as a starter. And then Atlanta got their hands on him, and it sort of fell up, the wheel sort of fell off the truck there for him. John's 33, and he drops off. In his last year, he was 3 and 10 as a starter and had 25 interceptions, which was not a good year for Mr. Aberta in 1996.
Os Davis
I'm trying to think of who they who they replaced him with. Let's see. I'm trying to get this up here real quick Who took over for him? Wade Wilson, can that be?
Darin Hayes
Well, I think Aaron Brooks was coming here. We talked about him last night. So, I think Aaron Brooks sort of bumped him off there. Okay. A couple of other interesting ones. A gentleman still playing, Jamis Winston. What do you think of him as a number three?
Os Davis
I think Jamis Winston was a lot of fun. I was surprised that he got so little play this year. He finally came in for Tampa Bay. Who is he with now, Green?
Darin Hayes
Green Bay? No, no, he's with the Saints now. The Saints, that's right, that's right, I remember. He wore number three with Tampa Bay, and now he wears number two with the Saints. So we're gonna talk, mainly as Tampa Bigs; that's really where he played. He only had no starts this year. I think Tyson Hill got all the starts when Breeze was out. But he did; he had 11 passing attempts and seven completions. Yeah. So he did get in a little bit.
Os Davis
Um, I think I'm, again, surprised that nobody wants to take a chance on this guy. Yeah, he takes a lot of chances. You know, he makes bad decisions.
Darin Hayes
He does. His touchdown touchdown-to-interception ratio is not horrible: 121 touchdowns and 88 interceptions. That's not
Os Davis
But that's trending down, isn't it? I mean, last year was 30 and 30.
Darin Hayes
Well, he had 30 interceptions in 2019, which was his worst year. Before that, his highest season was in 2016. He threw 18 picks. So, something happened in 2019. It was probably Bruce Aryan's offense for throwing the long ball. It's not his way. Hey, you know.
Os Davis
That's an Ariens is not exactly the most conservative coach in the world either, so
Darin Hayes
There's a little bit more dinkin' dunkin' as he thrived under that, you know, those first four years into the league.
Os Davis
I like Jameis, but again, you've got him in here with Wilson and even Hebert. You've also got John Kintner here. Again, here's a guy I covered, and Joey Harrington is there as well. These are the guys I covered; I mentioned last time that I covered the Raiders, but I'm sorry.
Darin Hayes
I was gonna say don't speak badly about Joey Harrington because a guy named the last name Chapman. That's why I think that might be his boy, so
Os Davis
So, I was covering the Lions, and at the same time, I was covering the Raiders; I got a lot of good beats in those days. And you know, I mean, yeah, Kitna's a tough guy and all that stuff, and he really talks the talk, and he puts his body out there, he's a great teammate and all that stuff, but, you know, at the end of the day, he's 20 -20 Phillip Rivers, you know, limited in skills.
Darin Hayes
When he was with the Bengals as a Steelers fan, I feared when Kitna came into the game. I'd rather have those starters than, cause Kitna just, he was just the poison for the Pittsburgh Steelers.
Os Davis
Yeah, for some reason, when he was in Cincinnati, he owned you guys. But, you know, again, mostly I know I'm from Detroit where, you know, a lot of those guys were tough, really, but, you know, great team guys, but just not the, you know, the skills just aren't there, you know, so.
Darin Hayes
All right, I have three more on here, but we don't need to spend a lot of time with them because we need to get those Hall of Famers. But Brandon Weeden, Mark Sanchez, and Rick Meyer are sort of all in the same boat. Sanchez had some success in getting the two AFC Championship games at the Jets. But ever since the butt fumble, I think his career sort of fell off a cliff, you know.
Os Davis
Yeah, see, that's the thing. When you're remembered for something like that, it's amazing because, it's amazing because, for a lot of my team, Harold Baines was known as the dude who got thrown out by Bo Jackson from the wall, from third base. He was known as this guy. But he made the Hall of Fame. You know, in the end, so I was just like, you know, but the butt fumbles a bit more egregious than that. I mean, he wasn't playing Bo Jackson. That's right, that's true.
Darin Hayes
sure, all right, well let's get into our Hall of Famers because this is the meat and the potatoes of the number three Jersey, and yeah, some good ones here, okay, let's hear, and we'll save, we'll save the two big ones for last, but how do you say that okay let's
Os Davis
Let's see who you think the two big ones are.
Darin Hayes
Alright, well maybe we disagree, but okay, well, out of the Hall of Famers, I'm gonna talk about the kicker first, cause I think, not the kickers are unimportant, but this guy is definitely good, Jan Stenerud in the Hall of Fame.
Os Davis
Oh, he's he's one of the all-time great placekickers. Oh, yes. Absolutely. You can't, you can't be smudged this guy. Of course, he's the most famous for kicking. Let's see. I guess it would have had to have been about six points in Super Bowl four. The Chiefs Chiefs win with a bunch of extra points and a field goal against the Vikings. Stennerud played forever, as I recall, and mostly for Kansas City. And yeah, I mean, 19 seasons. Yeah, for a while, he was number two, I believe, an all-time point score behind Blanda. I believe for a while because he racked up many points. He was around forever. I mean, this was a guy; he was the equivalent of Vina Terry in the day. I mean, he was the Adam Vina Terry of his day. And I think everybody agrees that Vina Terry is all a favor. Oh, yeah. So, so Stennerud was that I mean, you know, it's talking about generational players. Okay. Stennerud was the generational place. He just was.
Darin Hayes
They did 13 seasons with Kansas City, starting in 1967, and played through 79 seasons, So, you know those, the late '60s and early '70s Kansas City Chiefs teams. Yeah, they're pretty good, you know. For you, and he wore number three with Kansas City, had four years with Green Bay from 83, wore number 10, And then his last two years, 84 and 85, with Minnesota, put the number three shirt on again Yeah, he was a great kicker definitely deserves to be in the Hall of Fame I Would say in there but Compared to our other Three Hall of Famers probably, you know, he's in a big class with the jersey number three Now the next one I'd like to talk about is Tony Cannadale. Tony was born on May 5th, 1919, in Chicago, Illinois, and he is another one who had a great nickname. They called him the gray ghost of Gonzaga. Those are some of them.
Os Davis
I was going to say he deserves mention for just the nickname here, but the key thing about Candideo is, I mean, he was the halfback, you know, for Curly Lambeau's Packers in the 40s and 50s, you know what I mean? And he was also a two-way player. Oh, yes. He played pretty fair defensive back, and he did some punting, and he played special teams. So basically, he's like all three teams, and it's not just a one-off, you know, he was a regular defensive back and special teams returner. So, you know, you've got to love the all-timer. He's in the Hall of Fame because these Green Bay Packers have dozens of guys probably in the Hall of Fame. And, yeah, I mean, you know, again, they say about Lambeau's teams, about Lombardi's teams that, you know, some of the important things are is that they advance the game itself. You know, they change the way people play it. And so, you know, you have to give props to Candideo as a godfather of modern halfback players.
Darin Hayes
Oh yeah, I think it was 12 seasons he played, 4.4 average for play, 31 touchdowns, first team all -in 1943, and went into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1974; I mean, great career, especially two -a way player, you have to, you gotta be tired out there, you're playing offense, and then you gotta hit guys and tackle them and take on blocks.
Os Davis
And, you know, that 4.4 yards per carry don't sound stunning, but you gotta remember that before 1980, it seemed to me like, you know, the off-tackle run was the main play by the half dog. That was the main call. Right. And, you know, it's a two-yard play. So... Like, anything else... B gap, B gap.
Darin Hayes
You know here
Os Davis
You didn't get too many reverses in those days. And so, you know, nobody has a lifetime over four out of this era.
Darin Hayes
All right, well, now we come down to the big two. Yeah. And I'll let you pick who we want to talk about next because they're both infamous names. Okay, well.
Os Davis
All right, let's talk about Bronko Nagurski first. And you know, you can talk about Nagurski's accomplishments, and actually, you know, since he's back, we actually have some statistics on him. But for me, the real key to Nagurski is that he's really pro football's first household name, right? I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, his reputation at earned in college at Notre Dame, of course, he brings that to the NFL. And, you know, it really is that first step into giving the NFL the prestige that it has today.
Darin Hayes
He wasn't at Notre Dame; he was at the University of Minnesota.
Os Davis
I'm sorry, yeah. He's a golden gopher. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Sorry, bad slip. Sorry, Fighting Irish. Sorry, guys, I'm an Irish fan. I'd love to have him on there, but yeah, he had that reputation from college. He brings it to the pros, and he really, you know, puts it because back in the day, College football was way more prestigious, was well more beloved than the NFL that pro leagues, you know, which were fledgling and You know, he was the guy who I really think had the American sports fans Talking about pro football, you know on this national level. He really garnered all the interest of the game, and he was a pro wrestler. So I got a look that I gotta love the two sluts
Darin Hayes
Well, I mean, it's interesting being a two-way player. 1929, during his senior season in Minnesota, he was voted as a first-team All-American in two different positions. Defensive tackle and a fullback. I mean, I don't know of anybody. I look at these every single day. I don't know if I've ever seen somebody in the same year make it a first-team All-American in two different positions. That's...
Os Davis
those two. That's so weird. How do you have that size and that speed?
Darin Hayes
Uh, I don't know, but his, just the name, I mean, that's another one of those names. It's just like, you know, I'm playing Bronko Nagursky today. That just sounds like a football name. You know, that's. Yeah, of course.
Os Davis
of the great names. I mean, it's it's it's a Babe Ruth name. You know, it's like, yeah, that's that's a football name.
Darin Hayes
That just sounds angry.
Os Davis
It sounds big and tough, so I mean, It's tough not to have Nagurski here at this number three. He definitely makes the team Just. I mean, it's a legend. He's a legend in the true sense of it.
Darin Hayes
He was an NFL champion in 1932 and 1933 with the Bears. He was part of that infamous play of that first championship game, I believe, where it was under dispute where Red Grange, the rules back in the NFL back then, you had to be at least five yards behind the line of scrimmage to throw a forward pass. I guess the Bears ran a play that was sort of right on the line, and Red Grange, and I forget who they were playing. I think they might have been playing the Portsmouth Spartans, and they ended up playing that championship game because Portsmouth had the better record, but Hallis just couldn't have it. He challenged them to, you know, hey, we got to play this game because we were right behind you. And Portsmouth needed the players back then, so this is a great way to make some extra money. The coaches wanted some extra money. The fans loved it. So Portsmouth said, okay, we'll, you know, we'll play you for the championship, you know, we had the better record. They get down the end of this game; Red Grange throws a pass, apparently must have been close to the line of scrimmage, and passes it to Nagurski; Nagurski scores a touchdown, the Bears win the game, protests all over the place, you know, about, hey, you know, Grange was within five yards of the line of scrimmage, it's an illegal play.
Os Davis
of the challenge flag.
Darin Hayes
This isn't black and white; they didn't recognize the red flag.
hat's right. That's how the whole world was in black and white. That's right. And everybody moved around really fast, and everything was quiet. Fantastic. Fantastic. Okay, great. Can we go on to my favorite? Okay. You've been waiting for this for a long time, so yes. This is the reason why I'm here. Okay, so I got an axe to grind. I'm still grinding this axe, and back in early 2020, the NFL did their special. They did a series, which was really awesome. A bunch of experts, including Bill Belichick, were on the show talking about the 100 greatest players of all time, of the first 100 years of the NFL. So many people complained that Terrell Owens got stiff because he did get stiff. But for me, by far the biggest omission, and really not even close, is Jim Thorpe. Now granted, Thorpe was well more known for his college years, playing for the Carlisle Indians team that famously beat Harvard, which basically beat everybody. I mean, they were the best team for the teens, pretty much, under the guidance of Pop Warner, who... And I heard somebody say this one time, but you know you're important to the history of the sport when there is a level of the game named after you, such as Babe Ruth Baseball. Yes, well, Pop Warner football sort of indicates how important Thorpe's coach was in college. Regardless, he was brought into the NFL because of his worldwide status as, you know, basically the greatest athlete of his day, having done so much damage at the 1912 Olympics, in which he won the Pentagon, the Pentagon, the Pentagon, the Pentagon, and the Decathlon. And of course, you know, this was an inspiration for the Truly the Goats podcast, that he's episode number one, in my opinion, the greatest athlete of the 20th century. But the NFL, when they were forming in 1920, brought him aboard for his reputation and also for his team, the Canton Bulldogs, who had been wreaking havoc all over Iowa, India, Pennsylvania, wherever they went, as one of the best semi-pro teams in the country. And they made him president. And so, Jim Thorpe may be the only guy in any sport to be a halfback commissioner. That's quite a two-position player right there. Now, in the NFL, he ended up only playing 52 pros, no games. But, you know, he, again, not many statistics. He did make the...
Darin Hayes
Statistics, though, just to be fair to him, right in 1920, when the Roots of the NFL started, they're considered at the NFL starting. Thorpe was 33 years old, so I mean, look at today's world of football; 33-year-olds are probably retiring. You know, or hired already, so Thorpe came in at 33, the last game that he played; he was 41 years old as A tailback halfback, whatever back he was for that particular year.
Os Davis
Yes. Uh, he, well, again, like, like he's already, this sports is really, really different a hundred years ago in America. Um, America never really, for one reason or another, took on the club, the sports club model that they had in Europe and that they still have in Europe. In Europe, you don't have minor leagues, right? You have like subdivisions of your team and stuff, but those are youth teams. What you do is literally, when you're 10, you decide that your parents decide that they want you to get some exercise. And so you go to the local sports club, and if you're good enough, they'll put you on a team. And you know, for example, when I was living in Budapest, you know, our local team was that we passed. And let me tell you, their sports club had gymnastics, soccer, uh, hockey, basketball, uh, any sport you can think of figure skating, any sport you can think of. Wow. And that's the way they do it there, right? Then they don't have minor leagues and stuff. It's all community-based rather than business-based, as it is here. Okay. So, in the U S at the time, it was highly, highly ragtag, right? I mean, Jim Thorpe came out of the 1912 Olympics. Obviously, I couldn't go back to college, right? You know, um, you know, and so he said, Hmm, what am I going to do? Well, so what he started doing was he said, Oh, I'm going to go play professional baseball, you know, and then in the off-season, he went, and he played semi-pro football, right? Because of his Carlisle days. So when you say he debuted at 33 in the NFL, it's kind of like saying that our Venus of bonus, you know, debuted in the NBA at age 32. He actually had this whole other sports career. Well,
Darin Hayes
Before that, let me rephrase what I was saying. Let's say that Thorpe was the same athlete he was, but born ten years later in life so that in 1920, he was 23 coming in in the NFL, which, I mean, besides the Olympics, he was definitely a better football player than he was baseball career -wise. That was his best sport, that was his best sport. And so, a 23-year-old Thorpe coming into the NFL and playing for 52 games, you have a much different athlete and probably cracks your NFL 100 with no problem. Oh, easy.
Os Davis
You know, well, I mean, my theory is that the reason why he doesn't crack the top 100 along with the Nagurski and the Nagurski didn't either is simply because they don't fit. That's it. That's it. Now. That's a clop. What was the right arrangement?
Darin Hayes
Make it.
Os Davis
That's a good question; I don't think so, though, because I think the earliest, even though they called it 100 for 100, I think that the farthest back they went was Sammy Baugh. I think he was the oldest, and he was in the late 30s and early 40s, so I think he was really as far back as they went, and they showed a bunch of still pictures, basically. They did the Ken Burns thing where they showed pictures and just kind of slowly focused in on it and stuff like that. So yeah, I mean, Thor doesn't get the recognition he deserves. Still, when I did the Truly the Goats episode, I spoke to the guy who's the curator at the Jim Thorpe Museum at Oklahoma Sports Hall of Fame, and in his opinion. There's something to be said. You can thank Jim Thorpe for making Eisenhower president because if Eisenhower and his buddy on the Army team hadn't decided to go after Jim Thorpe and both got knocked out of the game, Eisenhower with a broken leg, he might never have chosen the career path that he did, that might have been a football player. So, thank Thorpe for beating the hell out of Eisenhower in the Army Carlyle game. That also gets him on the number three team, if you ask me.
Darin Hayes
Yeah
Os Davis
Exactly. Exactly. Well, for one day in 1992... Okay, we gotta say it, you gotta dislike that. I like it.
Darin Hayes
Like in there, you know, as you say, there's not a lot of stats on Thorpe's NFL career, but I do see he kicked field goals. There are not many of them, but there's not every year is recorded. And when I'm looking at the pro football reference website on Thorpe, and, uh, but still to be an all-star tailback, uh, to, you know, have the career that he did, you know, win the pentathlon, win the decathlon, the Olympics, be a baseball player, you talk about the kick field goals. That's a small-run athlete.
Os Davis
or a lot of these sports. I often have to consider the guys with the shorter careers just because of the effect. The truth is, one of the greatest guys ever to play NFL football is Bo Jackson. No one will ever talk me out of that. I don't care if he only played for four years or whatever. It doesn't matter. If you saw him, you knew. If you saw him in college, you know. You know, he was an all-time great, you know. For basketball, I always talk about Sibonis, you know. Another one is Drazan Petrovic. You may remember this guy. He played back, and he came up in the league right about the same time as Michael Jordan. He had already been winning championships in Yugoslavia before then, and this guy was primed to be the second or third-best player in the NBA. Unfortunately, in one of the off-seasons, he has a car crash. He dies before he can even hit his prime. Okay, for me, Petrovic is still one of the top 10 European players of all time. Easy, easy. And so for me, Thorpe, well, he was born out of time, but that doesn't take away his greatness at all. Well, thank God.
Darin Hayes
Yeah. But people are still talking about him to this day. I mean, how many players, other than Red Grange and Nagurski, I mean, how many people from a hundred years ago, are still being talked about as much as in football? You know, of course, you have Babe Ruth and Gehrig again. Right. And absolutely. And, again, this goes back to the,
Os Davis
notes, man, when people talk about one of the biggest things, let's think about this. Again, you know, we did the last episode, and we hit on Matt Ryan for probably longer than you wanted to, but in 30, 40 years, you know, who's going to think Ryan when they think of the top 10 quarterbacks of the 2018s, you know, not too many people, a lot of people in Atlanta, you know, but, you know, I mean, so, so again, like Thorpe is kind of the opposite. Right. You know, thank God people are still talking to this guy because what he did in so many ways was so important for the history of the NFL.
Darin Hayes
Absolutely. Well, let's change the tunes here a little bit. I think we've covered all these significant players award number three. And you have, last night we talked about your Truly the Goats podcast, but you have sort of a new endeavor you've been doing on the Sports History Network. Sure. Well, the SHN Showcase. The SHN Showcase. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about the Showcase and what they can expect of you?
Os Davis
I hope. I tend to think that the sports history network has a niche. There's a certain subsection of sports fans that's really into the history. And I don't just mean, you know, memorizing the Super Bowl winners or something. I mean, I am interested in the development of the rules, the technology, and even the game. And so, for me, what I'm hoping to do with the sports history network is sort of introduce those geeks. And I mean, that is the best possible way to get more geeks. Let's all come together. Again, there's a certain type of person that geeks out on hearing a podcast about Super Bowl seven, as is the case with Lombardi memories. There's some kind of person. Hopefully, that enjoys actually having one person tell me it was my favorite. It was their favorite truth. It goes that geeks out on hearing about a sumo wrestler 300 years ago. And so with the Showcase, I'm hoping to turn people on to the really, you know, really good work that's done with these sports history network podcasts, but just doesn't get that much exposure. Because I'm afraid that not so many sports fans really care about history. But I know who you are. And I want to appeal to you.
Darin Hayes
You know what I mean? I've listened to your episodes. I was on one of your episodes of the Showcase, and what I mean is that it's for the listeners. I think what it really does is you listen to, you know, Arnie Chapman, you hear him as a football history, dude. You've heard a hundred and umpteen, you know, Additions to his podcast, but you never really get to know who Arnie Chapman is. You hear who Arnie Chapman is interviewing. You get to learn a lot about his guests, But you never really get to learn about Arnie, and I think you've done that so well with all your guests. You've had so on so far on the Showcase of introducing the other side to them to the Viewership and a listenership to get to know that person a little bit. I think that just really opens up another channel into the personality of that host that people can enjoy. I know I've enjoyed it, and it's really fun.
Os Davis
And I think it would be kind of funny. I always thought that what would be a funny idea for a podcast is this: Okay, because I do a lot of work in gambling. So, I do a lot of writing for sports betting, and I was thinking that what would be a funny idea for a podcast is to debate the NFL lines for the week, but it would be me debating myself. That way, I could give the case for the Saints minus three and the Falcons plus three. Right. One of my guys is always gonna win.
Darin Hayes
And you can never be; you're never wrong. You always have the right answer. You can be one of those guys who say, hey, stick with me; I'll give you the pick of the week. I'm always right, I was 100% last week, but I was also 100% wrong. Well, as we only have a couple of minutes left here, is there anything else you're working on coming up in the future? I mean, you talked a little bit about some future episodes of Truly the Goats and maybe some SHN showcases. What do you have coming up that we can listen to and look forward to?
Os Davis
Oh, wow. Well, um, Truing the Goats has been a little bit difficult to plan ever since COVID set in. So basically, for the past year, um, it's weird the way people's schedules got messed up and how contacting people got more difficult. Um, let's see, but earmarked, I'm trying to get, I would like to do something on the greats of the Negro Leagues, uh, because many, many exciting things have been happening with Negro League history recently. And, uh, and, uh, yeah, um, especially with the Hall of Fame in Kansas City, uh, a lot of interesting things are happening. So I'd like to do that. Um, I would like to talk about Irish sports. So I actually do have somebody lined up for that. I found some superstars in both hurling and Gaelic football. And let me tell you, Gaelic football is a trip for football fans. I mean, you should check it out. You should check it out. It's kind of like a combination of football and rugby. It's really dope. It's a very interesting game. Very interesting. Oh, it's a very interesting game. Really neat to watch. Um, I mean, if you like passing and stuff, it's a great game because it looks a lot like human table tennis. Um, so, uh, okay. And then let's see what else. Oh, well, I'd really love to do a story on Ora Mae Washington, who is probably the greatest NBA Hall of Famer that nobody's ever heard of. Uh, so I'm working on that. And then, uh, I, I'm, I'm, I would really like to do, um, a piece on Secretariat. There is a question I would like to ask: Are animals athletes? Can we consider them an athlete? Well, I mean, you watch that record-setting Secretariat race and, and that's one of my all-time favorite clips on YouTube is, is Secretariat winning by like 30 lengths or whatever a Preakness, or Belmont, uh, just incredible, just incredible. So, in any case, that's kind of what I got planned for Truly the Goats, of course, for Sports History Network, uh, showcase. It's Arnie; I keep getting new people in the rotation so I can have more subjects to talk about.
Darin Hayes
Well, that's a great conversation we had with Davis, and we appreciate him coming on. Thank you to all of our guests who have been coming on. Most of all, we appreciate you, our listeners, for joining us on the sports history network .com and the pigskin dispatch podcast because we would love to have you here. And we would be nothing without your listenership. And your input: If you want to tell us something we missed in our conversations today, you can email me at pigskindispatch@gmail.com. Just let us know who you think number three that you would like to have heard about. And we'll take a look at that, do some research on it, and put it on a later podcast.
