Darin Hayes: 0:21
Football friends, we have a very special guest today, Larry Schmidt. Larry Smith is a New York City pro football historian who specializes in in New York football Giants. He's a researcher partner for the grid iron uniform database. We just talked to Bill Schafer from there yesterday. And he's a frequent contributor to the Big Blue interactive website, which is specializes in New York Giants. And when when we have a topic from pro football in the Big Apple area, we go to who I refer to as the guru of the New York City gridiron. Matter of fact, you heard Larry on October 4 podcast, he did a solo on Sam Huff, the linebacker from the giants on his birthday. Now, I'll like to bring him in. Larry Schmidt. Welcome to the Pig Pen.
Larry Schmitt: 1:04
Thanks for having me. Darin. Well, we're appreciative that you could join us today.
Darin Hayes: 1:09
Larry, we brought you on because we're just starting to undergo 100 Day project of going through, particularly the NFL. But we'll talk about some other professional leagues too, and probably a little bit in the college game, really stick into the NFL. But we're going to go day by day on jersey numbers that players were. And we're going to try to hit the significant players. And just so our listeners know the scope of this project. We know that we're going to try as hard as we can get all the significant ones, but we're going to miss a few here and there. And if we do, here's where you our listeners come in, please let us know your thoughts by emailing us at pigskindispatch@gmail.com. And we'll be sure to look into the player in question and probably remember them on our future posts. We'll try to catch up on all the missing pieces that we go through this first go around the first 100 days. So, Larry, I don't know where a good jumping off point is. But I know you've got some some things you want to talk about some players that were the number one than the NFL?
Larry Schmitt: 2:10
Yeah, well, there's been a lot of them. A lot of players that have warned number one, eight members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame have worn the number one. And as I was doing my research, and I remembered that, you know, several prominent giants were number one. And they're all players who had played in the 1920s and early 1930s, because the number one was retired by the Giants in 1935, in honor of Andrei Flaherty. And that is the first instance in North American professional sports where a number was retired in a player's honor. Wow. That's it. We're starting off right then, huh? Yeah. Yep. So they retired that number for Flaherty and 35. But the Giants had a tradition where when they started playing in 1925, their feature player or their marquee player that they wanted to draw fans attention to, were given the number one. So in the Giants first season in 1925. It was halfback Hickey Hanes who wore number one that season. Then in 1926, Hanes switched his number to two and they gave number one to fullback and their best passer Jack McBride. And McBride wore number one for the next three seasons for the Giants for from 26 to 1928. And then McBride left the Giants he went to Providence, and the Giants had purchased the entire Detroit Wolverine franchise, so they could get Benny Friedman to be their quarterback.
Darin Hayes: 4:01
Obviously, when you buy a whole team to get one player, you're going to put number one on the back of his jersey.
Larry Schmitt: 4:08
Yeah, and Benny Friedman in 1929. Set the NFL record at that time for 20 touchdown passes, which stood for I believe, I can't remember the exact number of years I know it's that 20 touchdown passes was the record until the 1940s. He had that for almost 20 years.
Then Freidman went to the Brooklyn Dodgers, and then Ray Flaherty who had been on the Giants in 29, but he wore number 44 And then he was on the Giants again in 31. He wore number six, but Ray Flaherty got that number one in 1932 and he wore it until 1935. When because he was the team captain and he was also head coach Steve Owens first, you know, assistant coach, he was a player coach.
So he wore the number one and then when he retired as a player
Are the Giants retired his number one
they did in 1946. They unretired number one for two years. They gave it to Frank Koch, who was a tackle and he had been on the Giants for over 10 years and he was a captain. And they gave he had worn number 36 For most of his career, but his last two years, they allowed him to wear number one. And then when he retired in 1947, no giant has worn the number one since that seems so foreign to us today to hear about a tackle either on the offensive side or the defensive side, we're in the single digit. But I believe it was sometime in the 50s, late 50s When the NFL changed their rules so that they 50 through 79 numbers were for interior lineman on the offense, just so you know who the eligible past receivers were sometime in the 50s. I forget the exact date. Yes, it wasn't no numbering system. And when you go back and you look through game programs and newspapers, where they have lineups, and rosters, it was very unusual for players to even wear numbers. Above the 30s. Most players wore numbers in the teens 20s and low to mid 30s. Not every team
allowed players to wear single digit numbers. And it was really rare to see anyone wear a number in the 40s or the 50s. Until that was probably the 1940s because the the all America conference, you know, they're trying to be diverse and be different from the NFL, they had players wearing all kinds of numbers. And then, you know, obviously the merger with the all America Conference in 1950, the NFL League was bigger, bigger rosters and they realized they needed to get a little bit of organization.
Darin Hayes: 6:53
You know, who was probably a big fan of the single digits, especially number one was probably the seamstress that had to sew the numbers on.
Larry Schmitt: 7:01
Right a lot less work
buddies or that than a 44. You?
Darin Hayes: 7:10
Well, that's that's some great stuff. I'm back in the old days. Let's
change this just a little bit. And let's talk about some of the big hitters. And then we have one giant maze, not a New York giant but one giant of the football game that were the number. That's a Hall of Famer, and that's Warren Moon.
Larry Schmitt: 7:32
That's right. Warren Moon was a big big time passer he had a lot of renown coming out of college, he had a very successful career. But when he was eligible for the NFL Draft, there was there weren't a lot of believers. You know, unfortunately, at that time, which wasn't that long ago, there was still somewhat of a stigma was an African American player capable of being a National Football League quarterback. So moon went to Canada and he played with Edmonton Eskimos of the CFL for five years. And wouldn't you know, he won the CFL title, The Grey Cup, five consecutive years. And then he went to the Houston Oilers in 1984 and became a obviously a very, very successful quarterback because they featured an entire offense built around his talents and his skills. And in 1986, the Houston Oilers became the very first run and shoot football team where they had empty backfield four and five wide receivers throw the ball you know, regardless of down in distance and field position and game situation, just throw it throw it throw it and he, you know, at the time in the 1980s and early 90s. Throwing for 4000 yards and a season was a big deal. Not many people that weren't named Dan Marino did it then 400 yard games he had a 500 yard game in 1990. So he was very, very, not just capable, but prolific. Yes, he was I can remember that watching those Houston Oilers running shoot teams. That offensive coordinator. His name escapes was a mouse Davis so that who the offensive coordinator was down in Houston. He was one he also he had Kevin Gilbride was on that staff too. Yes, that's right. I'd love to throw the ball and you know, those receivers had the sight reads where they were changed their route, according to how they were being covered by the defensive back so they're actually changing the play in real time on their running down the field and why stop the way in cut out cut? Do I keep running and you know, and more and Moon had to read the defense he has to read what his receivers are doing and everyone has to be on the same page.
Darin Hayes: 9:49
So Warren moved this proved a lot of a lot of prejudices with his play. He sure did it when he was 17 seasons I believe in the NFL after
Larry Schmitt: 10:00
his stint in the CFL he played over, I believe over 20 years if you include the CFL with the NFL. Right, right.
Darin Hayes: 10:09
And then he was not only with the Oilers, he played a little bit with the chiefs, Vikings, I remember had a cup of coffee, I think with the Seahawks. Right? Right.
Larry Schmitt: 10:19
So, yeah, very, very big player there. Now,
in our conversation prior to recording this, we had a great tie in or you had a great tie in to Warren Moon. It takes us all the way back in history. We're jumping all over the map here, but it's sort of want to get this tie in to to Warren Moon in the African American quarterback. Yep. Fritz Pollard, the main team 20 Akron pros, he was an African American player and he was he was a tailback. You know, they weren't really quarterbacks because they played the single wing but he was the primary passer and he was the play caller and Fritz Pollard was an extremely talented player, not just as a passer, but he could run and he played defense and the first first championship in the American Professional Football Association was the Akron pros with Fritz Pollard being their number one player. And, you know, being the 1920s, he encountered much, much adversity, you know, from opposing players, and whenever they played on the road opposing fans, and he endured a lot, but he was he was a trailblazer. You know, who ended up being enshrined in the profile Football Hall of Fame much, much later through the Veterans Committee, but he like Warren Moon, they both wore the number one and I think they both did that number. A lot of justice. They weren't very proudly. Absolutely earned the right to wear number one, no question. Yeah, they were definitely the number one players on their teams. That's for sure. Well, that is good stuff. Now, we have another modern quarterback that's still playing the game. Cam Newton wearing number one Superman, as they call him in man is six five to 45 when he came in, and something that when I was doing the research that I had sort of forgotten about, is that Cam Newton me we all know about him playing at Auburn that he initially played at Florida for a couple years 2007 2008 But he was sitting behind Tim Tebow. So that's sort of why he transferred he transferred to a junior college, I believe was Blinn college for a year. And then he played his final season of eligibility at Auburn.
Darin Hayes: 12:33
But that's his college background. But what can you tell us about Cam Newton in the pros? You know, it was funny watching Cam Newton played for the New England Patriots this year, which was
Larry Schmitt: 12:46
its own right, you know, Tom Brady's in the Tampa Bay, and he's cam Newton's in New England. But watching the way that Bill Belichick ran the team and scheme, their offense around cam Newton's abilities. I think Cam Newton probably would have fit in very well in single wing football in the 1920s. He certainly has the the size and the athletic ability, you know, the run Pass option, it's
you put him in an unbalanced line, you get an extra guard and they pull and they all know, student body going to the right with Cam Newton. I mean, he could use big enough to trick a linebacker on his own. Can you imagine that? I'd have no problem putting a leather helmet on that guy.
Darin Hayes: 13:31
Do you imagine in this day and age, if you're a quarterback and let's say you know the average quarterback is what maybe 205 to 10 maybe
Cam Newton gets around the corner, it gets into the second level. And you got this guy, you know, six foot five to 45 barreling down on you. You got to stop them.
Larry Schmitt: 13:50
You have defensive back they're given away 30 pounds. Yeah, you gotta go. You gotta go low. You're not going to tackle him up high.
Darin Hayes: 13:57
That's for sure. In New Jersey, and he is elusive to
Darin Hayes: 14:03
you know, he was an all pro in 2015. So far, he's been in three Pro Bowls, and played in the Super Bowl against the Patriots. Interesting enough.
Larry Schmitt: 14:13
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It wasn't against the Patriots. Um, so he played one game with the Patriots.
Darin Hayes: 14:20
But his national championship game. I mean, I still remember that they played the Oregon Ducks in the 2010 championship game 22 to 19 and he was he was definitely the star of the show in that game to
great, great player.
Larry Schmitt: 14:36
All right, who else you got the we're the number one jersey? Well, we have the man who statue you see right as you walk in the front doors of the Pro Football Hall of Fame Jim Thorpe
for he played for a lot of teams and you know a lot of years pre NFL and you know what we now call the Ohio league with Kent and then he moved around the NFL and he was with the Giants for
couple of games in 1925 but he wore number 21 Then, but he did wear number one when he was on Rock Island.
Larry Schmitt: 15:10
And he was definitely the biggest name in pro football. You know for the first five years before Red Gate Red Grange joined the league in 1925. But Jim Thorpe was the most most visible name and he's probably the marquee player for the NFL his first four or five years.
Darin Hayes: 15:29
Work won a couple of titles with Canton. Yes, yes, he did. And he got Rock Island independence wearing number one. And something is kind of interesting about Thor that I mean, I guess you don't really think about but when the NFL started 1920 He was 33 years old when he started his career and played till he was 41. You think about Tom Brady and Drew Brees plan into their 40s Warren Moon plane in his 40s was the quarterback position. You see some kickers Thor was he was taken the taking a beating carrying the ball especially back in that day and age. 41 years old. They played both ways. They had to play a defense to the quarterback, you throw an interception. You're not walking to the sideline, getting on the phone talking to the coach upstairs telling you what went wrong. You're just getting in the defensive huddle.
Larry Schmitt: 16:19
You walk off the field.
Darin Hayes: 16:21
He's a winner, you know, all his success and other sports, too. Especially the Olympic sports show. Yeah, particularly gold medals. And we won't even talk about that tragedy of him losing the medals there for a while but yeah, but he was the he was the guy. He was the biggest name he definitely deserved to win number one.
Yeah, I agree. I agree. How about what how are some other Hall of Famers that you have that were the number one you'd like to talk about?
Larry Schmitt: 16:50
Patty Driscoll oh yes for the Chicago Cardinals and the Chicago Bears. So he was he played with both Chicago teams through the 1920s and he was another tailback but he was the primary passer in the play caller today he would be considered a quarterback but in single wing football, you were usually the left halfback. And he was also an excellent drop kicker. He's he holds the record, he made four successful drop kicks in one game. And like Jim Thorpe, Jim Thorpe was considered you know, the great drop picker of the 1910s and 1920s. But a
Larry Schmitt: 17:32
patty Driscoll also successfully made a 50 yard drop kick, which I believe is what's recognized as the recorded record, but you know, the record kitchen for the 1920s
Darin Hayes: 17:45
was spotty at best. You typically go through gain summaries to find out what's recorded so Driscoll has what's recognized as the longest successful dropkick. Yeah. And I believe that took place in the 1924 season. We had every day on the pigskin dispatch, podcast, and on the website, we talk about the Hall of Famers on their birthdays. And we just covered him a few weeks ago on January 11, was his birthday for Patty Driscoll. The other thing that we have, we're members of the sports history network here. So we have a network of podcasters that get together on the sports history network.com And one of our fellow podcasters is Joe Zimba. And he is everything Chicago Cardinals. Everything's Chicago football, just like you are with New York, but Chicago Cardinals really he is an expert on he has a book on them. You know when football was football, that's also the name of his podcast. So he has quite a bit of information on Patty Driscoll.
Darin Hayes: 18:45
Driscoll, how he became a Chicago Bears kind of interesting. In 1926, after playing with the Cardinals for many years, his rights were sold to the Chicago Bears to prevent him from going into the rival original AFL professional league. They were offering him a bunch of money and halus really didn't want to see him go out there so he made a deal with I believe Mr. Bidwell at the time and got got Patty to come over as a bear. Yeah, the that league had the bulls in Chicago and if I remember correctly, it was
Darin Hayes: 19:23
who was sick? Who was the assistant coach with the bears? Because I believe he jumped to the bulls for a year. I I know who you're talking about, and I think you're definitely right. I think it was the Chicago Bulls were the ones that were going to take paddy so yeah, he had a three team, you know, Chicago team snapper tournament and we turned him in.
Larry Schmitt: 19:44
I was thinking is such such stars. I mean, was his brother but Joey started and played for the Chicago Bulls for that one season.
Darin Hayes: 19:51
That's That's fascinating. Different era football hats. Yeah, especially we have three teams in Chicago. You know, that's, that's crazy. A lot of player movement.
Larry Schmitt: 20:00
All right, who else do we have Hall of Famers? That were the number one. We have the founder of the Packers franchise curly Lambeau for the number.
Larry Schmitt: 20:11
And you know, he's generally recognized, you know, as the Packers founder and as a great coach, but he did play for a number of years ago, he was proficient in passing the ball and he's considered one of the early
Larry Schmitt: 20:25
practitioners of passing the ball and scheming and strategizing to throw and not just, you know, run, run, run, punt on fourth down or sometimes punt on third down back in the 1920s. Right.
Larry Schmitt: 20:38
You know, long before Vince Lombardi was you know, Vince Lombardi won five championships with Green Bay, but curly Lambeau coached them to six, starting in 1909, just secondary.
Larry Schmitt: 20:52
Okay, yeah, curly Lambeau is definitely Hall of Fame material part of the original inaugural class of the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Probably more so far as coaching. But yeah, it's great player to back in the year. Yeah, he founded the Packers in 1990. And, you know, pre a PFA, they joined in 1921. But the Packers were existing in playing as an independent team for for two seasons. And then he was a player coach in the beginning of his career. And then, in 1929, he won his first title with Green Bay, and they were the first franchise to three peat. They won in 2930 and 31.
Darin Hayes: 22:01
I guess you do things like that. They name a field after you're right.
Darin Hayes: 22:05
Yes. And they let you know where the number one. That's right. That's right. All right. How about any other Hall of Famers? We have the word that jersey number one.
Larry Schmitt: 22:15
We have another player who is probably better known as a coach, Jimmy, Councilman.
Larry Schmitt: 22:22
Oh, yes, I hear. He wore the number one. And you know, in keeping with the Chicago theme in the Cardinals, he coached the Cardinals to the title in 1925.
Larry Schmitt: 22:37
Oh, no, I take that back. I apologize. He wasn't he won the title in 1928. With Providence, right? Yes, Providence, Tom roller, the final, the final franchise that's no longer with us to win the title. And he won it with the Cardinals. In 1947, which is the last time the Cardinals franchise has won a title and then when the east again in 48. But they lost to the Eagles. You know, they have that 19
Darin Hayes: 23:08
The championship team of the steamroller have one of my favorite names, especially in college football, but George Wildcat Wilson he didn't wear number one, but I just love saying the name George Wildcat. Listen. So I say anytime I get the chance, so just threw that in there.
Darin Hayes: 23:23
It's right. Con Councilman was part not only that championship season, but the next year 1929 I believe they had the very first night game in the NFL. And if you've ever heard that story, that
Darin Hayes: 23:40
yeah, that's a cycle drum and it was against the Cardinals. Chicago Cardinals. So yeah. Very, very a lot of history there with Mr. Councilman and he was he got around in the league a little bit too
Darin Hayes: 23:54
late quite a bit with the coach quite a bit. So very important person that we're the number one in the pro football game.
Larry Schmitt: 24:03
Okay, who else do we have any other Hall of Famers that we missed on? That list covers all of our Hall of Famers. You know, you know, looking at more contemporary usage of the number one I think you'll find probably more than quarterbacks. You see a lot of kickers
Larry Schmitt: 24:19
are the number one.
Larry Schmitt: 24:21
I think Garrow you Premier and probably brought the number one just a little bit of infamy with his ill fated past in the in the Super Bowl to cap off the dolphins per almost perfect season. Everything was perfectly except for that pass that was intercepted by Washington and it cost them the shutout in the Super Bowl.
Darin Hayes: 24:41
It almost got God Washington back in a game plan. I had to be scary for dolphins fans that look like smooth sailing and then all of a sudden it's a one score game.
Darin Hayes: 24:51
He's definitely better with his legs than he was with his hand and game of football.
Larry Schmitt: 24:57
From what we saw, how about some other
Darin Hayes: 25:00
because we have that some of our listeners have probably once watched it. So you know, the one thing I remember watching was Raphael set the end with
Larry Schmitt: 25:11
the Cowboys, he used to have the most precise setup, before kicking the ball where he would be right where the holder was going to spot it. And he would carefully measure his steps going back one, and then two. And then he would do the same thing take two steps to the left to setup for the ball. And he learned that from Tom Landry when Tom Landry was the coach who would be a defensive coach for the Giants in the 1950s. Ben agajanian was the Giants kicker. And Landry would spend time at practice with agajanian. Because Tom Landry wasn't a place kicker, but he was the Giants punter in the early 50s. And he would talk about kicking and punting with agajanian. And Landry had the idea to have been agajanian Take, measure the steps. So you do everything the same way every time, you know, like perfecting a golf swing, where you set up the mechanics, and then you just go through the motions. And what does that what it's like back three steps to the side, left or right, one, two, back to two. And then you come then you come at the ball at almost like a 45 degree angle, in you see probably a great deal of today's kickers at all levels. I mean, I know it's definitely seen in the high school game college game, even see some of the pro kickers still practicing that.
Larry Schmitt: 26:33
That's right. So then, it was in the 70s when Tom Landry was the head coach of the Cowboys, he hired agajanian to be the Cowboys, kicking coach, and then you know, agajanian was wrapping up the end kicking coach. So when he thinks the same, same approach to the ball that Landry had come up with an agajanian in the 50s.
Darin Hayes: 26:55
Something was kind of interesting about ception. I always remembered him in a cowboy uniform. And I didn't realize this was doing some research this week, but he actually played one year with the Rams that's who he is initial team. And I'm not sure what happened there but it must have got better offer something in the gut when with the Cowboys as you're talking about. Yeah. And I remember the Rams had Mike Lansford who wore the number one and he was a barefoot kicker.
Larry Schmitt: 27:22
Barefoot kickers were kind of in vogue for you know, in the mid in the late 1980s.
Larry Schmitt: 27:28
I had to hurt you know, it just hurts my thinking about it. Yeah, I remember going to a Giants game at the Meadowlands against the rams and it was late in the year and it was freezing cold. And Lansford is out there on the astroturf barefoot.
Larry Schmitt: 27:44
And I'm in you know, and I'm in the stands and I'm wearing two pairs of socks and I have boots on. Isn't that guy doing out there in a barefoot? You didn't want to kick the frozen football with your boots on even?
Larry Schmitt: 27:55
Yeah, and those assets or fields were like asphalt. I mean, it's freezing cold. Yeah. How they did it. There was a few of them in the 1980s and you know, and he's from Los Angeles. He's a Southern California warm weather. You know, the grass field in Anaheim probably felt nice with a barefoot but I don't know about that frozen turf in North Jersey.
Darin Hayes: 28:16
I'm sure it was a warm, that's for sure. No, it wasn't. Yeah, well stand back in that era. We also had Rafeal sepcial. And that were the number one also.
Darin Hayes: 28:30
We already talked we were talking about I'm sorry. Efren Herrera, that's, I'm sorry, effort, Herrera, don't play with Dallas. My notes are all replay sorry about that effort. Herrera was also a Dallas Cowboy. back I think right after Raphael Sumption. I think he preceded him because I remember Eddie Efron hurt yeah, I think everyone Herrera was on Seattle when set tn was on Dallas. Okay, maybe that's okay. Your memory
Unknown Speaker 28:55
I guess Oh, I guess my memory shy you because you can tell.
Darin Hayes: 28:59
But yeah, Herrera actually had a Super Bowl when also failed to mention your premium had two Super Bowl titles, both with the dolphins I believe. 7273. Right. Great. Throw a pass. So that was a good
Unknown Speaker 29:16
time sure was much happier with them. And that's
Darin Hayes: 29:20
okay, as long as we're staying on this kicker, checkup, like to go to one of my favorite kickers because he played quite a bit with my team, the Pittsburgh Steelers. That's Gary Anderson, who's not yet in the Hall of Fame. Possibly. I know they've been talking about it the last few years, but had 23 seasons in the NFL 13 With Pittsburgh, five with Minnesota and had some stops with Philly and Tennessee and San Francisco.
Darin Hayes: 29:47
You know, he was in the Pro Bowl four times. The first team all pro 1998 when he was with the Vikings, his first year with the Vikings. Of course I was going from the outdoors of Pittsburgh to the dome. You know, I certainly asked that a lot.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
