What is Walter Camp responsible for in the evolution of the gridiron? What innovation and concepts did he accomplish? We have these answers and more in this episode.

Here are some of the headlines we hit on in this episode: Author Roger Tamte shares insight and knowledge on the man that helped create American Football into the sport it is today. Roger's book is Walter Camp and the Creation of American Football.

Transcript of Walter Camp Book with Roger Tamte

Darin Hayes
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com. In this bonus edition of the Pigskin Daily History Dispatch, we are bringing recognition to perhaps the most important man in American football history, Walter Camp, who many in the last 100 years or so have called the father of American football. There is some controversy and some inconsistency as to what day Camp was born. We'll talk about that in a moment. But as stated earlier on the Pigskin Dispatch, we're declaring this as Walter Camp weekend, just the same on the Pigskin Dispatch. Helping us in the study of Walter Camp is an expert and the author of an excellent book on the man titled Walter Camp, The Creation of American Football, authored by Roger R. Tamte, a scholar of early American football who studied Camp for many years. Roger Tampte, welcome to the Pigpen. Thank you, it's good to be here. No, we are certainly glad to have you, Roger. And first, we'd like to just learn a little bit about you. What brought your interest in the game of football?

Roger Tamte
Well, I've always been interested in football, and I grew up in Iowa, but my parents were from Minnesota. I was born in Minnesota, so I always had a little loyalty to Minnesota. I worked for 3M in St. Paul, Minnesota, and was a patent attorney for them for 30-some years, plus some consulting years. When I finished working for them, I wanted to work on some projects. I've always been interested in history, and I was interested in the University of Minnesota football, which in the 1930s had some national champions. Bernie Biermann was a coach, and there didn't seem to be a lot written about them, so I thought, well, I think I'd like to try and research that. I got started on it, but pretty soon, I began to realize there was not any well-documented book about the creation of American football, so I started to investigate that and became more and more interested and serious about it. I didn't immediately study Camp, but pretty soon, I realized that he was the key figure, and so I began to focus more on him.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, he's a very interesting figure. I mean, I was kind of on a similar path. I used to be a football official, and I would do some writing on the side for football officiating on some websites. I was also assigned to write about the history of football rules. And I became, you know, of course, football rules history sort of starts with Walter Camp, which we'll talk about here in a few minutes, including some of his accomplishments. But yeah, man, his contributions to the game of football are truly interesting. Now, you said, you know, you're from Minnesota, and you talked a little bit about the Golden Gophers program from the 1930s to the early 1920s. I mean, they really had some great teams back then. And I don't know if you have any, you know, things you would like to say about those programs anymore.

Roger Tamte
I don't know, I don't think so. I've often wondered why we could do it then and can't do it now, but it's been

Darin Hayes
Yep. We just said, uh, we do a daily, uh, bio on birthdays of hall of fame for the College Football Hall of Fame and a pro football hall of fame. And I know there's one just recently, and it's on the tip of my tongue. I can't remember the player, but he was a fullback for the Golden Gophers in the 1920s. And, uh, Newt Rockany of the, of Notre Dame was quoted saying, you know, he had to play him like three years in a row. And he said I can't believe we've got to play this going to get the guy again. I hope he graduates; it's just something that affects him. And, uh, so just some great golden go for history there in early football. But we, I, sorry, I threw you for a curve ball there. I didn't mean to do that. Let's try to stay on topic here. And that's my fault. Um, now you said, um, you know, you grew up in Minnesota and Iowa, you know, right in the Midwest, but, uh, and you learned a lot about Camp through, um, looking at some of the early history. Now, what was some of your research that you did to look up Camp on, you know, game of football?

Roger Tamte
Well, I don't remember the exact sequence of what happened, but I started off researching in the Minnesota Historical Society Library but soon realized that if I was really going to study the creation of football, I needed to get closer to Yale Harvard and Princeton, which were the so-called big three of that early football. So, I was really in retirement, and I began to travel. Now, I guess, here again, I don't remember the exact sequence, but I was working part-time for 3M even then as a consultant, and I occasionally had to go to DC, where the patent office was to have a meeting at the patent office. And I got so I would extend those trips on my dollar and go over to the Library of Congress. And I began to get some feel for information. I found a couple of early camp writings in their rare books collection, but I believe it was something like 2003. I took a trip out to Princeton, Harvard, and Yale. And I suppose on that trip, I realized that Yale had the papers for Walter Camp, and they had over 50 microfilm reels of papers that had been assembled very, very carefully and thoroughly, and I began to look at them. And I came home with what I had gathered but soon decided I needed to go again. And I should say, you know, I really had no training in historical research, and I maybe was not as careful as I should have been because I would learn things. And I could remember that I'd read them, but I didn't always take good enough notes to find them. So sometimes, when I went back, I had to look things up again or look things over. I've had to see.

Darin Hayes
issue happened to me, so don't worry about that.

Roger Tamte
I went to Harvard and Princeton maybe three or four times, but I ended up going to Yale more than that. I suppose I spent more time at the University of Minnesota libraries. They had very good newspaper magazine collections covering the time period when American football was being developed. And so I would probably go there at least once a week and try to dig through the newspaper files and magazine files. I basically enjoyed the research. It's drudgery many times, and yet when you find something that's new, and you're pretty sure it's interesting, why is that exciting? And it's kind of like exploring. You're an explorer out there trying to track down things. And so it turned out I enjoyed very much the process of researching. These were kind of my retirement years, so my wife and I took a few trips going south in the wintertime, and we'd go to places like Auburn. I found some material for my book in Auburn. A young professor at Auburn really instigated getting the students interested and able to play football, and John Heisman came along as their coach. That was his first really major five years. He was there for five years. That turned out to have some relevance to the book, even though it didn't have a lot to do with Camp. Anyway, I sort of lost track of your question now.

Darin Hayes
You answered very well in your research. Now, just digging in a little bit, I want the listeners to appreciate because I've also read a lot of Camp's put out a lot of things in periodicals, and he's written books. I have a few copies of my own collection, but even people at the time, some of the terminology and things that we call today were called differently back then. So you almost have to; it's almost somewhat interpreting a different language, going back 120, 130 years ago, talking about the game of football. As a matter of fact, the word football was broken into two words, the word foot and the word ball, early on. So I appreciate your research and your being studious because sometimes it is difficult to read some of that and try to incorporate it into today's language.

Roger Tamte
Yeah, right. You sort of come up with your own terminology, too. For example, we're going to talk about downs. And I've come up with the term downs and distance. It's really what the rule is about. But that's just my own idea. There are other ways to describe it, too.

Darin Hayes
I guess one of the best examples of it, you know, is the word snapper back is what was used quite a bit and not, you know, we can translate that to snapper or what we call today the center who snaps the ball, but the snapper back was when it sort of threw me for a loop a little bit, you know, just things like that. It's just a difficult thing to research at that time, sometimes in writing. So, I appreciate your diligence in what you did because I know what a chore it is. Suppose we could change gears a little bit. You know, in your studies, you know, we know we're going to talk a lot about Camp, the innovator and coach, and foot became a football, but can you tell us a little bit about what kind of a person Walter Camp was?

Roger Tamte
He grew up in New Haven. His father was an elementary school principal, and he attended the school where his father was the principal. He then went on to a private school in New Haven. He was always very interested in sports, I believe, and had a chance to see certain; if baseball came to New Haven, he had a chance to go see it and do things like that. He talks about wrestling, but when he got to Yale, he played baseball at the private school, Hopkins Grammar School. He played baseball for them and played soccer. But at Yale, for example, besides football, he played varsity baseball. He was in the first intercollegiate tennis tournament on the doubles team, representing Yale. He competed in intramural events in track and field. So he had a very, very deep involvement in sports, but he was also a good student. I would say not at the very top tier, but he won. He was recognized for his scholarship and was interested in writing. He'd been interested in writing ever since he was at Hopkins. He's on their newspaper staff. He also wrote poetry and had some poetry published. I would say he was also a very diligent person. I mean, he would undertake tasks and he'd follow through on them. During the development of football, as we might see, as we talk further, he was very responsible and really carried the effort, I think, in many ways. He was the only person who continued during those early years. I mean, most of them would come along for three years maybe, and once they finished school, then they left. But he continued to be involved, very diligent, and responsible. He was always characterized as quiet. And exactly what that meant, I don't know. I mean, he certainly he ended up being a coach and doing things like that. So he could speak when he needed to speak, but he was kind of in the background and quiet.

Darin Hayes
It's always the quiet ones you have to watch out for, right?

Roger Tamte
Well, something's going on, maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

Darin Hayes
Now, I believe if I read correctly, he was getting after school, still coaching at Yale, but he became involved in a family business in New Haven.

Roger Tamte
Well, yeah, when he finished school, he graduated from undergraduate school for four years and then attended medical school for three years. He did not graduate from medical school, however. But when he finished the spring of 83, he said that he wanted to catch on in business. He got a job for a clock company or a watch company in New York City. Connecticut was very prominent in the clock and watch industry. But he didn't stay with them very long because some of the graduates who were very much believers in him and what he could do for Yale and student athletic associations offered him a job at Yale to be in charge of all the athletic interests at the school. Now, in those days, it was the students and the graduates who were interested. There's not a lot of interest from the officials at school. So he worked that year in that position. And really, you can tell they hoped that Yale would hire him to continue that job as a regular Yale official. But they didn't. The Yale president, I don't think, thought it was the right thing. And so in 1984, after he'd worked at Yale for a year in sports, he again worked for the New Haven Clock Company. Now, they had an official named Camp, but he was not related to Walter. It was a stock investment company. But Camp continued there. He went to work in New York for about three years in the sales capacity, came back to New Haven, and was sort of, you'd probably call him, the sales manager. In the early 1900s, he was named chief executive president of the company. He was the president of the New Haven Clock Company, which was a worldwide company for about 20 years.

Darin Hayes
Now, uh, you know, you talk about him, uh, having to travel quite a bit, you know, go to New York City and I think, uh, by train, New York City is probably an hour away from, uh, New Haven. So, quite a bit of traveling. So coaching a football team, uh, can be quite difficult, but he had some help, I believe, uh, from his wife if you could go into that a little bit.

Roger Tamte
Yeah. I think it was common among former players to go back and help their teams after they graduated, and he did some of that. But in 1888, the captain of the Yale football team, who obviously wasn't an admirer, had confidence in what the Camp could do and asked him to really take full charge of their team. And it so happened that the Camp had just married Alice. It was the name of his wife.

Darin Hayes
Graham, Graham Sumter, was it?

Roger Tamte
I know her name very well, but I can't come up with it right now. Anyway, Walter was; they got married in July of 1888, I believe, and Walter started coaching the team that fall. I don't think he had a lot of money. He lived in a house right behind where his parents lived. He and Alice, and of course, he was working for the clock company, so he couldn't always be at practice, but she went in his place, and that's kind of hard to believe, but it's quite well documented. She went out there, walked the sidelines, and then took notes, I guess, and in the evening, would talk to Walter about what she had seen. The players got to like her. They called her Mrs. Walter, and she must have done a pretty good job. Then, in the evening, the captain would come over, and often, some players would come over to their house, and they'd talk about practice steps they needed to take. I don't know how much that happened. I assume he was that practice a fair amount, but I'm sure there were a lot of times when he couldn't attend practice, so she went in his stead.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. Can you imagine what most wives today would do if a husband said, Hey, can you go down to the football practice and take some notes? Well, I'm going to go to work. I know my wife would probably throw a couple of shoes at me or something if I asked a question like that. So she must've been very understanding.

Roger Tamte
Yeah.

Darin Hayes
we're supportive. Okay, so he had a lot of help. He had really deep roots in the towns of New Haven and Yale. Now, let's get into maybe some of his contributions and innovations. What are some of the big innovations that Camp brought to football?

Roger Tamte
Well, I think the first big one was the American Scrimmage rule. There's a camp that never said that he was the inventor of that rule, although I think most writers presume he was. But what happened there, I guess, was that American football was derived from rugby. Harvard was introduced to rugby by McGill College in Montreal in the early 1970s. Harvard challenged Yale, so Yale played them in 1975, which was kind of, I guess, not really a very clear cut as to the rules they were using. But in 1876, they played again, and there they used the regular rugby rules, pretty much. Other schools also became interested, and, in the fall of 1876, Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, and Yale formed the Intercollegiate Football Association. They adopted the regular rugby rules as the rules by which they would play. Now, the rugby scrimmage rule, which I'd like to read, says a scrimmage takes place when the holder of the ball, being on the field of play, puts it down on the ground in front of him. All who have closed around on their respective sides endeavor to push their opponents back and, by kicking the ball, drive it in the direction of the opposite goal line. I think of this as a brute-force type of game. They were intended to clash in the scrum and physically fight their way through that scrum and kick. He's kicking in opposite directions, but it, I think, was kind of a rough situation. They adopted that rule, and the Americans adopted that rule, but they really didn't like it very much. And they, you know, rugby had been in place in England for many years. And I've got a novel that was based at Rugby School, Tom Brown School Boys, it's called. And they have a rugby game described in there. And they describe the scene of a scrimmage. Here come two of the Bulldogs, and they go straight to the heart of the scrimmage, bent on driving the ball out the other side. And so the Americans, when they started playing that game, sometimes the varsity scrimmaged against the scrubs, and the varsity was bigger, and they could drive it through the scrubs. And so the scrubs began to think of something else, and they began to kick the ball sideways. And eventually, they began to kick it backward. They also didn't like the rugby method because when the two teams were clashing in the scrum and bouncing the ball back and forth, it often bounced out in unpredictable directions. Camp said that this conflicted with the Americans' idea of order and preparation. And now the Americans didn't have this history in rugby and weren't committed to it. So they began to try other things. One of the things they tried was to kick the ball backward, hoping one of their backs would get it and run around the scrum. And that became effective. At some point, what Camp wrote was an adventuresome spirit and developed a very vigorous backward kick. He was able to place his foot on the ball and kick it backward. And I'm assuming this was in the tangle of a rugby scrum. He somehow got his foot on the ball and was able to kick it out quickly so that the collegians began to call it a snapback. I guess it was fast enough and quick enough that they used the word snapback on it. However, the ball was kicked, and it was rolling and bouncing on the ground. So, one of the backs would gradually move closer and closer behind the guy who was kicking to be able to grab the ball before the opponents came through the line and grabbed it instead. And they began to call him the quarterback. I think they chose that kind of based on the location; he was closer to the line than the halfback. But anyway, the American-style scrimmage, or what I call the snapback scrimmage, developed out of that situation. In 1879 and 1880, the Americans deleted the rugby scrimmage lines of coming together and attempting to force their way through. And instead substituted other words, which, again, I'd like to read this. This rule was introduced in the 1880 rulebook. A scrimmage takes place when the holder of the ball, being in the field of play, puts it on the ground in front of it. All those words are exactly the same words from the rugby language. But then, this is the new part. It puts it in play when onside by kicking or snapping it back. The man who first receives the ball from a snapback shall be called a quarterback. And those seem simple words, but they accomplished a revolution. Rugby's brute force, forward kicking, and scrimmage battles were replaced with ordered play, planned and thought out in advance. And that happened because they knew who was going to kick the ball back. So that team was on offense, whereas in rugby, both teams were in the same status. I mean, you're on offense if you had the ball, but if the other team got the ball, then you were on defense. But in this case, they started the scrimmage with one team in charge of the ball. And so that team could know that it was going to be able to handle the ball and could put in effect a plan that they had practiced. And obviously, it changed the whole nature of the game. It's not clear who wrote those words, although Camp is commonly thought of as having written those words. What we know for sure is that he wrote a manual of instructions to go along with the rules. That manual, 11 pages, is a pretty detailed description of who was part of the 1880 rule book. Obviously, he had given this a lot of thought, and Yale had probably practiced it. And that became the American scrimmage rule.

Darin Hayes
I mean, just stop for a second and think about, I mean, how important that development is, you know, basically, you know, the invention of the quarterback or creation of the quarterback and creation of play calling, you know, the plans that you're talking about play calling for offenses, and subsequently defenses could call plays. So that's just the whole, probably the main source of interest for the game of football is just that I give and take and those, you know, one play, one team scheme against the other with their plays trying to gain an advantage and I mean that's gigantic in the game.

Roger Tamte
Yeah, it is. And it still has its effect today. Camp later, quite a few years later, the game was growing more and more popular. And he listed some reasons why he thought the game was popular. The first one he listed was the fact that the game is constantly developing and is always open to new methods. And that all arises from the fact that it's a game of planning. And the plans are quite an open slate of possibilities. And they keep developing and developing and developing. And it's responsible for what American football has become. So yes, it is. It was a very crucial and important rule. Now, however, I think you also asked about the downs rule. And I think that one is also a very important rule. This was definitely a camp invention. The first purpose was to correct a flaw in the 1880 scrimmage rule. The nothing in that rule limited a team in the number of possessions they could have. And so, teams, such as an inferior team, would stall and would not really try to move the ball forward; they would try simply to hold on to the ball if the other team could not score. That way, they at least would not lose. But those games were called block games. And the Americans tried for a while to overcome that problem. But they didn't, they didn't really solve it. And so in April of 82, in April 1882, they had an emergency rulemaking meeting. All four schools sent each sent three delegates. It was the largest rulemaking meeting they had at that point. Camp was in medical school, but he was a delegate for Yale. He came in with a proposed rule reading that if, in three consecutive downs, a team does not advance the ball by at least five yards, they must give up the ball to the opposite side on the spot of the last down. These are very familiar ideas. It was three downs, five yards. But today, you know, we think of that as kind of a natural or logical thing. But when Camp proposed it in 82, it really wasn't; I mean, if you think of the fact that putting a limit on the number of downs, which they didn't have, but also providing a way to extend that limit. That was a new idea and really a new creation. Conditioning the extension on how many yards the offensive team achieved within a certain number of downs was also a new idea. Using physical measurements to measure the distance a team had moved in three downs was a very new idea, and the other delegates were all opposed to this idea. They said you'll need a surveyor on the field to make it work, or constant delays will surely occur. The referee will be given superior powers and face impossible decisions. This is kind of an interesting satellite, but Camp answered them by suggesting that the field be marked with lines five yards apart. And the other delegates laughed and said, it'll look like a gridiron. And as far as I know, that's the first time that word was used that has become so common in describing a football field. Finally, the chair of the meeting, who was also opposed to the idea but had worked with the Camp enough to have some confidence in him, obtained a compromise. He says, and he persuaded them to enact the rule on the condition that in the fall if it didn't work, they would cancel the rule. Well, when the fall came, the play was so clearly improved that no effort was made to kill the rule. There was, first of all, an absence of block games. But more importantly, the game was made more interesting and compelling. Each down was important. Players had an exciting new focus. Each down became important to obtain the required yardage. Viewers knew what was at stake and were more interested, so they sat on the edge of their chairs, wondering if they would make these yards. Each down really told a story with winners, losers, and sometimes heroics. So anyway, Camp always said that it is the most important role in our game. And I think he was being sincere. It turned out that in 1912, the first historian of the rule, Park Davis, wrote that Camps' 1882 downs and distance rule had made American football preeminent over all other games of strategy and prearranged tactics. So, other people thought it was also an important rule.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, it's definitely a big contribution. I can't imagine going to a game and watching one team have the ball the entire game and just stand in the same place. That would be kind of boring. I think the game probably would have died out if it stayed that way.

Roger Tamte
worried about that. That's why they had an emergency meeting of 12 people because they really were worried that it couldn't die out.

Darin Hayes
Yeah, Camp, that's a brilliant idea he had, you know, and there was no other thing like it, you know, nobody had ever seen, as you said, so that's, that's really interesting. Now, if we could, you know, if we could fast forward to maybe 1904 or 1905, but the temperature of football was and what was about to happen and how camp sort of was involved in that, the whole thing with the, you know, there was no passing game at that point in time. Well,

Roger Tamte
Yeah, it was always a dangerous game, of course, but it became a time when there were a number of injuries and a number of deaths, and the public became upset about it and pushed for some sort of change. And Camp, I guess, you know, John Heisman had written some letters and claimed that he had suggested the idea of forward passing to Camp. I never found any letters from Heisman in the camp papers, so I don't know just what happened. But Camp was not too interested. And he really, they began to have in 1906; I haven't really looked at this stuff recently, but I think 1906 was the first year that the Rules Committee met. A number of the members of the committee advocated forward passing, which is a very limited kind of forward passing. Camp opposed it, however, and I think maybe it did start in 1905. In 1906, they did pass it. The Rules Committee over camps and other objections did put in rules allowing passing. I think they also, in that year, increased the downs, the yards that had to be made in three downs. There were still three downs, but they increased it to 10 yards. Now, President Theodore Roosevelt gets mixed into this story also. He was a friend of Camp's and a great admirer of Camp's. And, you know, I have not gone back and really refreshed myself on this story. And I don't think I want to take it on, but it's a really interesting story. Roosevelt eventually became persuaded that Camp was wrong and that there needed to be a change. He did some things to help that process along so that eventually, in 1912, a quite liberal passing rule was passed. Again, Camp opposed it. They did, at that point, increase the number of downs to four. So, in 1912, I think it was four downs to make 10 yards. But at the end of the 1912 season, Camp wrote in, you know, he had started a guide that contained the rules, and it had become taken over by Spalding. Camp was the editor and the main writer for this guide. And he wrote in that guide that 1912 had proved the effectiveness of rulemaking. And it was very complementary to forward passing. I think that's another insight into Camp: although he had opposed vigorously, in the end, he lost. However, he realized I think he had been wrong and that forward passing was going to be a very important part of the game. And it was, of course, and he used it. He used forward passing in his own coaching at Yale.

Darin Hayes
I believe it was even to the extent, going back to 1906 after Roosevelt sort of put the hammer down and told the intercollegiate rules committee they had to make some changes to make the game safer, institution of the forward pass, but Camp and some of the opponents of the forward pass put into some strict rules that first year, like if you threw a forward pass and it was incomplete, it was turned over on downs, like a recovered fumble. So you couldn't pass any more than five yards downfield, some really crazy rules that we wouldn't even recognize today. But it's, I'm glad to hear your 1912 that, you know, Camp saw the value of the forward pass and, you know, basically said, Hey, you know what, you guys are right. This is great for the game. And just like you said, in that 1912 rule book, a Spalding handle. So yeah, that's some great stuff there. Now, I got sort of a, let's fast forward another decade here, you know, Camp continued to go to the rules committee meetings that they were held annually, sometimes a couple of times every year. And, you know, he was extremely dedicated to the rules. And if you could take us maybe up to that 1925 rules convention, his last committee that he attended.

Roger Tamte
World War I also came along during this time. After the 1912 meeting and agreement, there were some rule changes, but within two or three years, they had reached a point where they made almost no changes to the rule book. That was really quite a change. I mean, almost every year until that time, there had been some fairly significant rule changes, but Camp has said the game is working well at this point, and we should let it continue. And so it did. After the war, during the war, there were a number of Army and Navy football teams. So, people got exposed to football that way. They also got some pent-up demand because some of the schools stopped playing football. So, at the end of the war, from 1920 to 1921, the number of games had really increased. And really, during the 1920s, a lot of the major football stadiums were built. But anyway, leading up to 1925, I don't think there was anything really earthshaking that was going to be held at that rulemaking meeting. But Camp had pretty much attended all of the meetings, and he went. He was 65 years old, I think, at that time. And they met together on Friday night and had some discussions. But planned to have further meetings the next day. They all went home to their hotel room. On Saturday morning, the committee met, but the usual prompt Camp was not there. And after an hour or two, the chairman of the committee sent a couple of people to go look for Camp. They got the hotel manager to open the door, and they found that Camp had died during the night. Apparently, he was at peace in his bed. So it's very ironic. This man who gave his life to football really died during the night between two sessions of the rulemaking committee. Obviously, it was quite a shock for his wife. That was the end of Walter Camp's participation in the rulemaking.

Darin Hayes
You know, I always maybe I'm over-romanticizing the situation, but I always like to think of it, you know, he accomplished so much and went through so much controversy to keep this game of football, you know, first of all, to get it off help get it off the ground and playing it and, you know, adapting rules and adopting rules and, you know, going to all these meetings and practices and going through the whole Teddy Roosevelt, you know, summons to the White House and the forward pass. You know, controversies, and he overcame all that, and football in the 1920s is sort of settled down, as you said, and there weren't a whole lot of innovations taking place at that time, at least in the major rule innovations, but he was sort of, you know, goes that that Friday night meeting. And you said how he died peacefully; I always like to envision it as he was sort of at peace with the game of football. And, you know, to be a football icon, you have to go out at a football rules meeting. There's just something about that that's astonishing and ironic, like you said, but also, you know, almost in a romantic sense that brings nostalgia to the event. And, you know, I don't know, it's just died doing the thing he loved, I guess, is a better best way to say it.

Roger Tamte
Yeah, there's a Grantland Rice. Walter Camp had presented an All-American team in Collier's magazine for many years, and when Camp died, Rice took that job over. But Rice was kind of a poet, was a poet. He wrote a poem that I always thought was if I can read it. Oh, please do. A few months after Camp died, Grantland Rice wrote this poem when he, I think, was perhaps naming the next All-American team, but Rice assumed Camp still remembered those players that he had named in the past and that he occasionally thought about them, imagined them as they marched along the skyline of memory. As they marched by, how often must have come to him the memory of the great battles which brought them fame, battles in rain and snow and sun and shadow, the flying tackle and the savage line thrust, the forward wall braced for the shock, the graceful spiral careening against the sky of blue and gray, the long run down the field, the goal line sand, the forward pass, the singing and cheering of great crowds, young and old America, gathered together on a golden afternoon with bands playing and banners flying? It may have been in the midst of such a dream that the call to quarters came, and Taff's was sounded as the great night came down the field. It's repeated more than once.

Darin Hayes
It's a beautiful tribute by Grant Lynn Rice to the great man Walter Camp. All right. I guess this is a question. Now, we've sort of encompassed the whole football life of Walter Camp, but you being an author and being so engrossed in his life, if you could travel back in time, I said, Roger, here's a time machine, and you can go back any time at any point in Camp's life and either witness an event or ask a question of Camp, what might that be?

Roger Tamte
Well, you know, one idea that comes to my mind is that I've always wondered what goes on in these rulemaking meetings. I mean, the Camp was apparently persuasive, but not a dictatorial person or early rulemaking meetings and see what the manner of discussion was and, you know, there would be a lot of times that might be of interest, but that's one that comes to my mind.

Darin Hayes
Yeah. And just you saying that sort of put the picture in my mind; I'm picturing a room full of cigar smoke in the air. We're probably waving our hands, trying to clear the air a little bit. And maybe what you said earlier with describing Camp as sort of a quiet person, maybe he was almost like that old EF Hutton commercial. You know, he didn't say much, but when Walter camp spoke, everybody listened, you know, maybe that's an instance that we could maybe look upon of what happened, you know, but that is, that would be a good question. Now, I appreciate you coming on today with us, Roger. Now, why don't you tell us the title of your book and maybe where some of our listeners can purchase your book?

Roger Tamte
The title is Walter Camp and the Creation of American Football. And, you know, I know that Amazon has the book available. But I don't actually know other places. I'm pretty sure that if you went to a local bookstore and asked for the book, they would get it. But that's all I know.

Darin Hayes
Okay. So, uh, Amazon, I mean, is a very common place where everybody buys books these days. Uh, the way they sort of the way the internet is taking over the marketplace, but again, that book is Walter Camp and The Creation of American Football by Rogers are T empty. Uh, make sure you check it out at Amazon and get a copy of it. Uh, it's a great piece of writing about a great man in American football history. And it's a very interesting read and, uh, one that everybody should have, uh, in their library. And, uh, Roger, we very much appreciate you joining us on what we're calling Walter camp weekend. I know we're a little bit controversial on the date, but, uh, uh, still, we're celebrating the man's life, uh, sort of in the appropriate time of year, the appropriate month, let's say, to, uh, make sure he has paid tribute to for his great contributions.

Roger Tamte
Well, thank you for asking. I've enjoyed participating. And, and I, you know, I feel that Camp is someone who we need to know better, and it is very much the father of American ball and, and there should be some times when we recognize what that contribution is because the game is obviously very important in, in the United States.

Darin Hayes
Sir, you've certainly shed some light with us here today and in your book and we are all much wiser and more informed for it and we thank you very much for your time. Thank you, Roger.

Roger Tamte
Thank you.